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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-10-21

---Logopened Sat Oct 21 00:00:48 2017
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00:43<Afdal>Quick question: where do I stick my original TTD graphics again?
00:46<Afdal>oh it's just .openttd/baseset isn't it
00:47<Afdal>but which files...
00:47<Afdal>nvm found the readme :)
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02:56<andythenorth>o/
03:50<@Alberth>o/
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05:29<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8707/horse_hopper_vs_dump.png
05:30<andythenorth>do the two types look different?
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05:39<Eddi|zuHause>somewhat, but what's the gameplay (or real world) difference between them?
05:39<andythenorth>irrelevant
05:40<andythenorth>the problem is that frosch couldn’t tell one from the other
05:40<andythenorth>hopefully that’s fixed now
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>no, i think that is exactly relevant. because if the players don't have the mindset that they're different things, no amount of pixels will make them able to distinguish them
05:41<andythenorth>interesting point
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>it's like a japanese person trying to distinguish R from L
05:41<andythenorth>the difference is still irrelevant, because they’re functionally identical
05:42<andythenorth>if one has the kind of brain that doesn’t see the visual stuff as significant
05:42<andythenorth>then the difference will never be grokked
05:43<andythenorth>it will just be a confusing choice
05:44*andythenorth can’t think of any solution for that, except to take the NUTS approach
05:45<andythenorth>all roads seem to lead to copying NUTS
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06:06<Eddi|zuHause>well, i could think of a few solutions... one would be adding "flavour text" that has describes real-world differences which cannot very well be mapped to gameplay features
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>the other would be adding some gameplay difference like one getting the disadvantage of not being able to load some cargos, but having some other advantage like load speed
06:07<andythenorth>that already applies in both these cases
06:07<andythenorth>(the speed advantage and limited cargos vs. other wagon types)
06:08<andythenorth>the extra text…dunno, seems quite arbitrary
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>well, flavour text would have to be consistend over all vehicles
06:09<andythenorth>the only purpose of two types here is faster train identification
06:09<andythenorth>but for people who can’t read visual cues, that’s no advantage
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>and the other thing i don't mean wrt other wagon types, but specifically these two wagon types
06:10<andythenorth>if this is confusing, then one type should be deleted
06:12<andythenorth>similar issue, stake wagon / flat wagon split might not be justifiable
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>i would exchange flat wagon for a container wagon, and have it available for free autorefit
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>(but overall worse performance)
06:16<andythenorth>can a flat wagon carry logs without stakes / poles?
06:17<andythenorth>if not, then what I actually have is two stake wagons :x
06:17<V453000>if both wagons are equal, I would use both. They are ones of the best drawn wagons andy. SF level
06:18<V453000>even better I would say
06:19<andythenorth>stake wagons https://www.trainworld.com/upload/iblock/1ae/7ac50530b408ff04a76006afe36d0b72.jpg
06:19<andythenorth>flat wagons https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/41923_33547_Qty1_1.jpg
06:20<andythenorth>according to the internet :P
06:23<V453000>:)
06:26<andythenorth>fuck it
06:26<andythenorth>they both get stakes :P
06:32<andythenorth>“bolster wagon” is probably much too UK-specific eh?
06:32<andythenorth>instead of “flat wagon"
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>that word means nothing to me
06:36<andythenorth>it’s esoteric in the UK
06:36<andythenorth>maybe 1 in 500 people would recognise it
06:38<V453000>666
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, i have seen the word "bolster" (without wagon context) being used, but even then i have no real clue what it means
06:38<andythenorth>a pillow is a bolster
06:38<andythenorth>lifts your head up
06:39<andythenorth>took me years to learn that meaning
06:39<andythenorth>bolster on vehicles is a block that something else rests on
06:45<V453000>these wagons make me want to abandon 32bpp andy
06:45<V453000>really good
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07:05<Wolf01>Moin
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07:34<andythenorth>V453000: also really simple workflow :)
07:34<andythenorth>:P
07:34<andythenorth>just draw
07:34<andythenorth>also automate all cargos :P
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08:07<V453000>:)
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08:10<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8708/horse_flat_4.png
08:10<andythenorth>previous http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8683/horse_flat_3.png
08:11<Wolf01>Yes, better
08:11<andythenorth>dunno about stake cars
08:11<andythenorth>probably will
08:12<Wolf01>Still not sure about having 3 generations of the same car which looks almost the same
08:13<andythenorth>me neither
08:13<andythenorth>is flaw of set design
08:16<Wolf01>Not possible with year based refits?
08:30<supermop>andythenorth: expired the old wagons promptly?
08:31<Wolf01>And raise the running costs based on age so you can't autorenew and they cost really much to maintain and you are forced to switch to a new generation
08:31<supermop>back to timetabling a 201kmh express and a 160kmh freight through the same stretch of track on a clock face schedule
08:32<Wolf01>Good luck
08:32<supermop>Wolf01 I feel like other than drawing tram liveries, this is the one thing in the game that really engages me
08:33<Wolf01>I think I'll start to use timetables only when the autoseparation patch will be added to trunk
08:33<Wolf01>JGR-pp is too sluggish on my system :(
08:35<Wolf01>We really need to start use those strange things called graphics cards
08:36<supermop>Wolf01: https://imgur.com/a/tLfM9
08:37<supermop>passengers go /--\_/
08:38<Wolf01>Well done junctions
08:40<supermop>flat junctions make me happy
08:40<Wolf01>I only do flat junctions, trying to be realistic too
08:40<supermop>the depot bothers me but I just needed to build another train there quickly
08:41<Wolf01>I do flying junctions only when I have a lot of space and different levels
08:41<supermop>those dirt roads with sidewalks need to be upgraded
08:42<Wolf01>:D
08:42<Wolf01>NRT need to be upgraded
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08:53<supermop>hmm 10 or 15 day tempo on schedules?
08:54<supermop>guess 15 is easier
08:57<supermop>passenger trains 15 apart will pass through the flat junction in opposite directions close to the same time
08:59<supermop>andythenorth: in horse 1 I can't flip the cyclops to top and tail
09:00<supermop>want to make a little fake hst
09:01<oskari89>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFoy5H2Cc_A
09:03<oskari89>Thumbs up for that feature (shunting), someone is still working on that
09:14<andythenorth>supermop: can’t flip articulated vehicles
09:15<andythenorth>everything in horse 1 is articulated
09:15<andythenorth>BAD FEATURES
09:15<supermop>haha why
09:15<supermop>its 8/8
09:15<andythenorth>yes
09:15<andythenorth>but every vehicle is 3 articulated parts
09:15<andythenorth>didn’t have to be, but it was
09:16<andythenorth>regrettable
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09:26<Wolf01>Well, got to go, bye
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09:36<supermop>no feedback on latest version
09:36<supermop>must be perfect
09:37<andythenorth>yup
09:37<andythenorth>no feedback when winning :)
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10:10<frosch123>hmm, if i had drawn a stake van, there would be a stake at the left/right border of the wagon
10:10<frosch123>maybe use the stake position to add variation to the generations?
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10:12<andythenorth>I did :)
10:12<andythenorth>some have more than others
10:12<andythenorth>although that conflicts with other patterns :P
10:13<andythenorth>frosch123: is there anything I can do to make BGT slightly close to real?
10:13*andythenorth getting bored of trains
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10:20<andythenorth>this is a good fake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFoy5H2Cc_A
10:21<andythenorth>that’s a lot of work gone into animating a fake game
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10:34<peter1139>FAKE NEWS
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10:45<andythenorth>but how do you have a train without an engine? :O
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10:54<andythenorth>supermop: what colour to do stake cars then?
10:54<andythenorth>original TTD one is grey
10:54<supermop>stakes are cc
10:56<andythenorth>I should base it on bubble truck in toyland
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11:04<andythenorth>irl http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wJfto1z5RMI/Ts-KPPSy4VI/AAAAAAAACSk/QLLFzTgEruo/s1600/Timber+2.jpg
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11:09<peter1139>"IRL"
11:09<peter1139>Looks like a model to me :p
11:10<andythenorth>well played
11:10<andythenorth>mixed 1cc / 2cc? o_O
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11:35<Wolf01>Back
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12:02<Samu>hi all
12:04<Samu>ST2: i've been testing kirby paul vs ginzu vs chaney jubilee in single and double track, to see which is the best start, there are some surprises
12:05<Samu>for single track, it's better to start with ginzu, and not the chaney jubilee
12:06<Samu>chaney allows for a longer route, but the train will take more time to come back and forth a 2nd time
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12:06<Samu>the income difference doesn't make for it
12:07<Samu>kirby paul allows for an even longer route, but it's such a weak engine, it won't even make a profit
12:08<Samu>as for starting with double track, dual chaney jubilee is the best start
12:08<peter1139>Pfft, dumb default vehicles.
12:08<Samu>dual ginzu is quite expensive, and since the limit is £150k, the route is too short for it to make a profit
12:09<Samu>now, i also tested kirby paul on dual track, 2 trains and 3 trains
12:09<Samu>3 kirby pauls do better than 2 ginzus
12:09<Gustavo6046>I have notes about the Brazilian Portuguese translation.
12:09<Samu>that was the surprise
12:10<Gustavo6046> • "Randômico" is wrong; "Aleatório" is the correct word.
12:10<Gustavo6046>[pending]
12:10<Samu>but 2 kirby pauls wielded the worst result
12:10<Gustavo6046>Other than that I absolutely loved the accurate translation!
12:10<Gustavo6046>Who did it?
12:10<Gustavo6046>Sounds like a native Brazilian who knows a notch of English to mix the word "random" in :P
12:11<Samu>ranking it all, it becomes like this:
12:11<Gustavo6046>peter1139, vanilla <3
12:12<Samu>#1 - dual chaney jubilee on double track
12:12<Samu>#2 - tri kirby pauls on double track
12:13<Samu>#3 - dual ginzu on double track
12:13<Samu>#4 - single ginzu on single track
12:13<Samu>#5 - dual kirby pauls on double track
12:14<Samu>#6 - single chaney jubilee in single track
12:14<Samu>#7 - single kirby paul on single track
12:14<Samu>the big surprise was then, the tri kirby paul
12:17<Samu>i should mention distances
12:18<Samu>#1 - 218 tiles
12:18<Wolf01>Gone berserk on testing again?
12:18<Samu>#2 - 198 tiles
12:19<Samu>#3 - 146 tiles
12:19<Samu>#4 - 718 tiles
12:20<Samu>#5 - 286 tiles
12:20<Samu>#6 - 796 tiles
12:20<Samu>#7 - 875 tiles
12:22<Wolf01>Why don't you test the different engines on the same conditions?
12:22<Samu>the limit was £150k loan
12:22<Samu>try to make complete routes to the last cent
12:23<Samu>and i came up with those
12:23<Samu>all trains were transporting coal
12:23<Wolf01>It's like testing a F1 car doing the Silverstone international track vs a wheelbarrow on the national track and comparing times
12:23<Samu>i also did this for trucks
12:24<Samu>for trucks, it's not so interesting to report
12:24<Samu>single road, and the number of trucks being the distance limitation
12:24<Samu>on each route
12:24<Wolf01>You compare pears and apples with the condition of "being fruits"
12:29<Samu>for trucks it was prety much a tie, only 3 of these tests are relevant to report
12:30<Samu>#1 - 18 trucks, on a single road, 121 tiles
12:31<Samu>#2 - 19 trucks, on a single road, 92 tiles
12:31<Samu>#3 - 17 trucks, on a single road, 149 tiles
12:31<Samu>#4, #5, #6 etc... are all less number of trucks with longer routes
12:34<Samu>the best truck route is only able to beat #7 train route
12:34<Samu>:(
12:39<Samu>nerf trains
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12:41<andythenorth>probably what’s needed samu
12:41<andythenorth>is some kind of way for players to mod vehicles
12:41<andythenorth>so they can balance
12:42<Samu>perhaps it's not the train itself that needs balance :(
12:42<Samu>but the rails, constructing them
12:42<Samu>they're cheaper than roads :(
12:44<Samu>or maybe the roads themselves should be cheaper
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>Gustavo6046: well, the svn log will know who the translator(s) for portuguese (br) was/were
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>Gustavo6046: also, you can sign up as a translator if you want to improve
12:46<Samu>distance matters too much in this game :(
12:59<Samu>alright, time to experiment with basecosts
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13:02<nauticalnexus>is this a support channel?
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>no
13:02<nauticalnexus>Could you point me to a channel I can get support for openttd then?
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>read the topic?
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>@topic get 3
13:03<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Don't ask to ask, just ask
13:04<nauticalnexus>Oh. I'm trying to install 1.7.1 on Ubuntu 17.10 and it didn't work, says it depends on libicu52 but it isn't installable, libpng12-0 same thing
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, you need a version compiled specifically for that version of ubuntu, can't just take any ubuntu version
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>or you use the "generic" linux binary
13:05<nauticalnexus>well the repos don't have 1.7.1
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>does ubuntu have community repos or something?
13:06<nauticalnexus>https://packages.ubuntu.com/artful/openttd
13:08<nauticalnexus>The binary worked.
13:31<Samu>cheaper roads doesn't change all that much, allows one/two more trucks for the same distance
13:31<Samu>it helps, but doesn't seem much
13:31<Samu>perhaps testing will make me change my opinion
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13:35<Samu>19 trucks with roads costing half, allows a distance of 171 tiles, previously it was 92 tiles
13:36<Samu>or in another view
13:37<Samu>18 trucks previously allowed a distance of 121 tiles, but with roads costing half, allows 20 trucks a distance of 119 tiles
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15:19<Samu>https://imgur.com/X7TgCeC
15:19<Samu>not too bad
15:21<Samu>rail costs doubled, road costs halved, £150k loan and with my running cost patch for trains
15:21<Samu>ST2:
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16:10<Snail>just curious.. do you guys play with or without inflation?
16:18<Gustavo6046>WIthout
16:18<Gustavo6046>Without*
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16:20<Samu>without, because multiplayer
16:20<Samu>join anytime
16:20<Samu>and so
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16:22<andythenorth>without
16:22<andythenorth>inflation is broken
16:24<Wolf01>With, because I like it so
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16:25<Gustavo6046>Is there how to put a sign in the center block?
16:25<Gustavo6046>Using the AI API
16:25<Gustavo6046>Also, is there any way to quickly remove all the signs without using scripts?
16:28<Samu>i like infrastructure maintenance costs
16:28<Samu>except for aircraft, it is too strong
16:28<Samu>way brutal :(
16:29<andythenorth>nmlc ERROR: "src/lang/polish.lng", line 761: A gender choice list {G} has to be followed by another string code or provide an offset
16:29<andythenorth>I am deleting the relevant lines to fix FIRS compile
16:30<andythenorth>wonder if eints could prevent this somehow
16:38<andythenorth>new FIRS released ;)
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16:46<Gustavo6046>Will next year have a Z-Shuttle?
16:51<Snail>andythenorth: I think I have to agree with you
16:51<Snail>inflation doesn’t work very well...
16:51<Snail>I think I’ll recommend inflation off for my set
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17:20<Wolf01>'night
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17:47<Gustavo6046>Anyone on?
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18:01<Samu>i'm experimenting weird stuff
18:06<Samu>I try too much and achieve too little :(
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18:39<Samu>can you recude the cost of refiting the default cargo ships just a tiny little bit?
18:40<Samu>I'm short of £100 to create 4 cargo ships with £150k loan
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20:05<Samu>https://imgur.com/Llw3Zfj - now with ships
20:05<Samu>https://i.imgur.com/Llw3Zfj.png
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20:06<Samu>i cheated a little bit with the refit cost of ship
20:08<Samu>instead of costing £571, i made it cost £285
20:08<Samu>a subtle change, allowed me to build 4 coal ships within £150k loan
20:12<Samu>there's other subtle changes in the road costs, the three first used halved road costs using BaseCosts Mod
20:13<Samu>the other used a direct change within the price table, there's a difference of £1 per road piece between the two methods
20:14<Samu>oh well, be back tomorrow, cyas
20:15<Gustavo6046>cya
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23:08<Flygon>Very random thought - It'd be kinda neat to be able to set specific towns to ALWAYS be "Fund New Buildings"ed when the previous cycle runs out automatically.
23:08<Flygon>Kinda like.. uh, Age of Empires II's farms?
23:08<Flygon>Where you can buy them in advance and they get renewed automatically.
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 22 00:00:50 2017