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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-10-29

---Logopened Sun Oct 29 00:00:00 2017
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02:53<andythenorth>o/
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03:05<andythenorth>Alberth: you post to forums very early? o_O
03:11<@Alberth>clock shifted :p
03:11<@Alberth>but in general, yep, get up at around 6
03:12<V453000>kids give no fucks about clock :P
03:13<@Alberth>me neither, but the world around me does
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03:42*andythenorth was awake at 4am
03:42<andythenorth>or was it 5am?
03:42*andythenorth unsure
03:45<@Alberth>it's not that important :)
03:47<andythenorth>it felt important at the time :x
03:47<andythenorth>so is it Steeltown, or Motor City?
03:47*andythenorth might have made a mis-step
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03:49<andythenorth>maybe vehicles aren't the ultimate end cargo
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04:31<@Alberth>interesting idea :)
04:31<@Alberth>bbl
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05:24<andythenorth>@summon frosch123
05:24<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: out of chalk
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06:00<Wolf01>Moin
06:14<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
06:15<Wolf01>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I91z_rs3JWo did you even considered this for your children?
06:17<andythenorth>that is big eh
06:17<andythenorth>how much does that printing cost? :o
06:18<Wolf01>I think "a lot" could be a good answer
06:20<Wolf01>Also I think I have the 850 somewhere
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07:08<Wolf01>Quak
07:11<Samu>hi
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07:25<frosch123>moo
07:25<andythenorth>well
07:25<andythenorth>is it steeltown or motor town?
07:26<andythenorth>to put it another way, 50% of the detailed RL steel chain is present
07:26<andythenorth>and 50% is missing, in favour of tyres and windscreens
07:26<frosch123>add ships and tools
07:27<frosch123>possibly a bit of wood
07:27<andythenorth>I am experimenting with kicking vehicles chain out
07:27<andythenorth>chemicals + cars economy
07:28<andythenorth>https://image.slidesharecdn.com/oprnmgtinsteelplant-140704103953-phpapp01/95/operational-management-in-steel-plant-35-638.jpg?cb=1404470505
07:28<andythenorth>Steeltown currently stops in the middle of the chart at 'steel'
07:28<andythenorth>then it becomes BMW and Ford
07:31<andythenorth>stripped it down http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
07:32<andythenorth>need to decide what final output cargos are interesting
07:32<andythenorth>then work back to steel
07:37<frosch123>vehicles are an interesting cargo
07:37<andythenorth>cars + chemicals
07:37<frosch123>judging from the current state you should probably delete cement and builders yard
07:38<andythenorth>it makes an ugly line on the graph eh
07:38<frosch123>that's not the reasoning :)
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07:38<frosch123>but cement adds nothing, it only goes to black holes
07:38<andythenorth>goes to bulk terminal
07:40<frosch123>i think readding glass and also adding wood might work
07:40<frosch123>you can make a lot of things from steel+glass+wood
07:41<frosch123>cars, ships, houses
07:41<frosch123>so, building materials may be a thing
07:43<frosch123>other games have stuff like motors
07:43<frosch123>but they are essentially made of steel only
07:43<frosch123>so does not really add anything
07:44<V453000>electric engines with electronic circuits, yo
07:45<andythenorth>motors would be copper + steel
07:45<andythenorth>might work out what goes in a chemicals + cars economy
07:45<andythenorth>very few raw materials, mostly secondary
07:45<frosch123>ok, maybe go for electric cars then :)
07:45<frosch123>also allows battery cargo
07:46<andythenorth>this is the core part of Steeltown :) https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8738/Steeltown.png
07:46<frosch123>battery from various fancy minerals
07:46<andythenorth>the goal is to get those industries co-located, then cram in lots of trains
07:46<andythenorth>then raise production to make it really hard
07:47<andythenorth>maybe a couple more clusters like that
07:47<andythenorth>it's really not a town-focussed economy :P
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07:54<andythenorth>Tin
07:54<andythenorth>tinplate works
07:54<andythenorth>also maybe electrical machines
07:54<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinplate
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08:46<Wolf01>o/
08:46<@Alberth>o/
08:49<andythenorth>frosch123: shipyard...steeltown, or chemicals + cars?
08:49<andythenorth>o_O
08:49*andythenorth likes the idea that it might look good
08:51<frosch123>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_industry
08:51<frosch123>surface mining and bucket excavators?
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08:53<frosch123>problem is that all the fancy products like ships and windturbines translate into black holes in ottd
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08:54<frosch123>http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/heavy_industry.asp <- lists 5 things
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08:54<frosch123>1 to 4 might work
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09:10<andythenorth>black holes aren't wrong
09:25<frosch123>so, also adding big-ass refineries?
09:25<frosch123>oil rig construction yards?
09:25<andythenorth>worth exploring
09:25<andythenorth>I think it's a different economy
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09:26<andythenorth>offshore construction yards?
09:26<andythenorth>wind turbines
09:26<andythenorth>oil rigs
09:27<andythenorth>http://www.brightonandhovenews.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/1-First-wind-turbine-3rd-blade-attached-11.03.07.jpg
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09:28<andythenorth>https://corporate.vattenfall.co.uk/globalassets/uk/projects/aberdeen-bay/2c_smulders_site.jpg
09:28<frosch123>ship with feet
09:30<andythenorth>what can I deliver oil rigs to?
09:30<andythenorth>what cargo class would that be?
09:30<frosch123>off-shore construction hubs
09:31<frosch123>oversized class
09:33<frosch123>anyway, your :27 picture could be an industry
09:33<frosch123>simliar looks as oirlgi
09:33<frosch123>but builds wind turbines
09:33<frosch123>for gameplay purpose it does not move though
09:37<andythenorth>deliver wind turbines to it :P
09:37<andythenorth>sometimes I wonder about splitting ENSP
09:37<andythenorth>e.g. special supplies for oil industry
09:38<andythenorth>pipe, frac sand
09:38<frosch123>might make sense in this economy
09:38<andythenorth>not sure how it would work
09:39<frosch123>i wouldn't add a "wind turbine cargo"
09:39<frosch123>rather deliver "pipe" and "electric machinery" to an off-shore windmill construction yard
09:41<andythenorth>http://www.technip.com/en/our-business/fleet-facilities/construction-yard#
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09:42<andythenorth>rig supplies?
09:42<frosch123>add in the other cargos and industries first :p
09:42<frosch123>"supplies" may be a good export cargo
09:42*andythenorth plans cars + chemicals
09:43<andythenorth>only way I've found to make supples exportable is to minimse need of it for mines etc
09:48<frosch123>hmm, maybe to f-infected. but does it need a "lubricant" cargo?
09:48<frosch123>or just oil?
09:48<frosch123>steel+oil->machinery
09:48<frosch123>machinery+copper -> electric machinery
09:48<frosch123>(too much f)
09:50<@Alberth>quite :)
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09:50<@Alberth>usually it's machinery + electric motor :)
09:51<frosch123>so, steel+copper+oil -> electric machinery?
09:52<frosch123>copper+paper+oil -> transformators?
09:52<@Alberth>sounds more realistic :)
09:52<frosch123>i guess "crude oil" does not quite cut it
09:52<frosch123>so rafinery needs to produce more
09:52<frosch123>not just fuel, but fine oil or something
09:53<@Alberth>oil is sort-of collection name
09:54<@Alberth>likely the industry itself always makes explicit what oil is intended
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09:55<frosch123>yeah, but you cannot ship directly from oil rig to machine shop :)
09:55<frosch123>you need at least a refinery or other chemical plant
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09:56<frosch123>but well, one could as well argue about plastics in machinery
09:57<frosch123>but plastics is less fun than fine oil
09:57<frosch123>plastics is too yoghurt-cuppish
09:57<frosch123>not heavy-industrish
09:58<@Alberth>indeed :)
09:58<frosch123>andythenorth: don't add yoghurt
09:59<@Alberth>plastic could work if you build an industry set to produce our household items
10:02<supermop_home>yogurt town
10:09<@Alberth>that would be silicon valley, or rather, yoghurt valley
10:13<andythenorth>yoghurt is for the dairy economy
10:13<andythenorth>cheese, yoghurt, butter, milk, cream
10:13<frosch123>pudding
10:14<andythenorth>custard
10:15<andythenorth>can't find a custard tanker
10:18<frosch123>that's a good thing, otherwise i would worry about the exitence of mustard tankers
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10:33<andythenorth>like this? http://www.dailypioneer.com/state-editions/bhopal/7-illegal-tankers-with-mustard-oil-seized.html
10:36*andythenorth biab
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11:10<Samu>who's a cargodist expert?
11:13<Samu>Alberth: can u review my patch, https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=77199
11:14<Samu>i need some cargoflow, cargodist expert
11:15<Samu>to test that patch
11:16<Samu>i still get myself confused about how cargodist works
11:18<@Alberth>changing exclusive rights seems weird
11:19<Samu>why's that
11:20<@Alberth>I don't know the purpose of the patch, but if an oil rig is under town influence, it should obey restrictions of the town, wouldn't it?
11:21<Samu>if a company buys exclusive transport rights, only this company gets cargo on their stations
11:21<@Alberth>also, doesn't your system break with "distant join stations" ?
11:21<Samu>but oil rigs are OWNER_NONE
11:21<Samu>if i get ships in there, and i got exclusive transport rights, i can't even get oil from it
11:21<Samu>i thought it as a bug
11:22<Samu>distatnt join stations is station spreading, right?
11:23<@Alberth>hmm, that may be why original game had big restrictions on distance of oil rigs, to avoid owner problems
11:23<@Alberth>I build lands just next to the oilrig, and a station, that I connect with the oilrig station
11:24<@Alberth>*land
11:25<Samu>it should make no difference on distant join stations, because it's the industry that looks for which stations to supply oil
11:25<Samu>if it detects an attached station, it will not supply oil on the other
11:27<Samu>if you mean 2 oil sources, one from oil field, other from oil wells, the oil field will search which stations to supply oil, separately from the oil wells
11:27<Samu>or do you mean something else?
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11:36<Samu>you can't join your station with an oil rig station, i just tried, it only lets you create a new station
11:38<@Alberth>so that's blocked already
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11:40<Samu>do you mean spreading all the way into land, and then demolishing the parts in-between?
11:40<Samu>station spreading?
11:44<Samu>can you post a screenshot of what u mean?
11:47<@Alberth>distant join is when you build a station near another station (but not in contact with it), while holding CTRL. Then you get to select which already existing station it is.
11:47<@Alberth>that works for normal land stations, no idea if it works for oil rigs
11:48<@Alberth>maybe there is a special case for them
11:48<Samu>they can't be distant joined
11:49<@Alberth>hmm, not the same owner, I guess
11:49<Samu>their owner is OWNER_NONE
11:51<Samu>but you can distant join your own stations
11:52<Samu>build one where catchment area picks the oil rig, then distant join it with another
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11:53<@Alberth>oh, too complicated, I just build land right next to the oil rig if I bother getting oil from them
11:53<Samu>https://imgur.com/6rfjzDr
11:53<Samu>it's working as I intended
11:54<Samu>no oil for train
11:54<Samu>https://imgur.com/a/IdKj5
11:55<Samu>enabled vs disabled behaviour
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12:14<V453000>andythenorth: funny story
12:15<V453000>I had a cool 3D model in blender
12:15<V453000>rendered it
12:15<V453000>realized how retarded and wrong it is to model in realistic scales for openttd
12:15<V453000>even if it's 24/8
12:15<V453000>gg, redo
12:16<V453000>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8739/not-so-big-boy.png
12:19<V453000>serious chibification incoming
12:24<frosch123>length may be fine, but it's not tall and wide enough
12:26<Wolf01>Also that's a Challenger, not a Big Boy :P
12:27<andythenorth>pixels
12:27<Wolf01>It misses many pixel then
12:27<Wolf01>Like 4 wheels
12:28<V453000>exactly frosch
12:28<V453000>but this is the "realistic" proportion of width and height
12:28<V453000>so need to chibbialize
12:28<V453000>yes Wolf01, that already got chibbialized
12:28<V453000>wheel cut off :) it's not meant to be a perfect representation of big boy
12:29<andythenorth>V453000: do this one http://sbiii.com/bwrkapix/9999road.jpg
12:30<andythenorth>http://sbiii.com/bw-gapix/hugeboyt.jpg
12:31<Wolf01>A triplex.. wait, sbiii mean something fictional
12:31<Wolf01>That site has too many things
12:36<V453000>that's basically the same
12:37<Wolf01>Why the fuck is the swiss classification so difficult to understand?
12:38<Wolf01>Ok, I think I got it
12:41<Wolf01>http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/quadruplex/quadpatent.gif :D
12:47<V453000>nice
12:47<V453000>48/8
12:48<Wolf01>Also the Garrett is nice
12:48<Wolf01>http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/quadruplex/dg2b.jpg
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13:24<frosch123>i still have andy's windmill construction ship opened
13:25<frosch123>never thought they actually ground the ship like a crane
13:25<Gustavo6046>https://64ff3c18.ngrok.io/cheapwayjs/index.html
13:25<Gustavo6046>mouse wheel -> adjust cost
13:26<Gustavo6046>draw mode: Obstacles adds obstacles, Weight Copy copies weight between tiles
13:27<supermop_home>andythenorth do you have feedback on verbose names? frosch123gave me some suggestions too
13:30<andythenorth>supermop_home: what feedback do you need?
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13:36<andythenorth> what to call a chemicals + cars economy?
13:37<andythenorth>kind of like ruhr valley or teeside UK
13:37<frosch123>heavy industry
13:37<frosch123>or "heavy metal" to make it more fancy
13:38<andythenorth>hmm, where is ruhr valley?
13:38<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_German_Chemical_Triangle
13:38<frosch123>it's at the border to france
13:38<frosch123>if you really wanted to know
13:39<frosch123>it's where all the big close cities are
13:39<frosch123>anyway, maybe you can also find a fancy industialisation-related name
13:39<andythenorth>so where's the chemical industry?
13:39<andythenorth>seemed to be a lot around Berlin when I went
13:39<frosch123>like "marx town"
13:41<frosch123>andythenorth: bayer
13:43<frosch123>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer <- hq is in leverkusen, which is in ruhr area
13:43<andythenorth>I could call it 'heroin'
13:43<andythenorth>to go with the other dodgy names
13:44<frosch123>the middle-german-chemical-triangle is nowhere related to ruhr area though
13:44<andythenorth>UK steel regions are not same as chemical / car regions
13:45<frosch123>cars are not close to steel in uk?
13:45<andythenorth>no
13:45<frosch123>well, i guess not all here either
13:45<andythenorth>although UK distances are short
13:45<frosch123>but some
13:46<frosch123>vw was specifically choosen near steel mills
13:47*andythenorth tries SALTWORKS
13:47<andythenorth>it might be there are two economies
13:47<andythenorth>or one
13:53<frosch123>call it proletarism
13:53<frosch123>or "labor"
13:54<andythenorth>working_man
13:54<andythenorth>prole
13:54<andythenorth>fordism
13:54<andythenorth>unwashed
13:54<andythenorth>american_dream
13:54<andythenorth>white_heat_of_technology
13:55<frosch123>hmm, i imagine the economy more like 1880
13:55<frosch123>call it 1880?
13:55<andythenorth>https://www.theguardian.com/science/political-science/2013/sep/19/harold-wilson-white-heat-technology-speech
13:55<frosch123>how about "victoria" :p
13:56<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runcorn#Economy
13:56<andythenorth>I've called it BRINE for now
13:56<andythenorth>salt is a little known source of some huge fraction of world's chemicals
13:57<Samu>what was the newgrf which was limited industry production capacity?
13:57<Samu>limiting*
13:57<Samu>ST2:
13:58<Samu>BusyBee?
13:58<ST2>BB is a GS
13:58<ST2>I think ECS limits production
13:58<ST2>not sure
13:59<andythenorth>PBI or ECS
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13:59<Samu>ECS, ok, let me take a look
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13:59<Samu>cus there are some code i don't quite understand, regarding industry acceptance cargo
14:00<Samu>or production
14:01<Samu>woah, there's so many ECS grfs, which one is it
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14:07<Samu>nah, can't be ecs
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14:08<Samu>i remember i was playing one of your servers and an industry suddenly stopped accepting grain/livestock
14:08<Samu>it was over capacity
14:08<Samu>what was it
14:08<ST2>sec
14:09<ST2>Experts hard - industries - http://bananas.openttd.org/en/newgrf/
14:09<ST2>note: only works on temperate climate
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14:11<Samu>thx, that was it. let me explore this thing
14:13<andythenorth>well
14:13<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene
14:13<andythenorth>chemicals is a rabbit hole :D
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14:17<supermop_home>all these short turns at stations look weird with steam engines
14:17<supermop_home>i guess I need to add head shunts
14:41<supermop_home>andythenorth now you have me reading about production of pvc
14:41<andythenorth>isn't it
14:43<andythenorth>ethylene
14:43<andythenorth>chlorine
14:43<andythenorth>caustic soda
14:43<andythenorth>styrene
14:43<supermop_home>but
14:43<andythenorth>(styrene in pellets)
14:43<supermop_home>wouldn't it all just be tanks and covered hoppers?
14:43<andythenorth>yes BUT DIFFERENT COLOURS :)
14:43<andythenorth>but yes
14:44<andythenorth>that's a limiting factor
14:44<andythenorth>trying to work out if this is legit or not
14:44<andythenorth>or do I just rename steeltown, and add in more chemicals
14:44<andythenorth>the steeltown economy graph was really really horrible :P
14:45<supermop_home>steeltown has a 'feel'
14:45<supermop_home>rust belty
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14:45<supermop_home>I feel like thats some people can readily emotionally associate with
14:45<supermop_home>espescially wrt trains
14:45<andythenorth>isn't it
14:46<andythenorth>also this cluster http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8740/Steeltown.png
14:46<supermop_home>chemical town or whatever might have a feel for some, but its different than the Sheffield or Bethlehem one
14:46<andythenorth>ok
14:47<andythenorth>these are legit comments
14:47<supermop_home>poor plastics plant getting no love there
14:47<andythenorth>lacks chlorine :P
14:47<supermop_home>i mean, you have to think about how 'train-y' something feels
14:47<supermop_home>to americans and brits, maybe japanese of certain area, train means steel
14:48<supermop_home>rolls and rolls, coal, ore, billowing smoke
14:48<supermop_home>big rust colored monsters of plants looming over towns
14:49<supermop_home>chemical town is more like grey boxy buildings with miles and miles of silver pipes everywhere
14:49<andythenorth>yes
14:49<andythenorth>now that I try sketching it out I find I need 4 chemical plants :P
14:49<supermop_home>feels like europe, post war
14:49<andythenorth>all will look about same
14:50<supermop_home>steel town feels very pre-war
14:50<andythenorth>is it steeltown, or just bonkers heavy industry?
14:50<supermop_home>one and the same
14:50<andythenorth>also it has a supplies problem :P
14:51<supermop_home>but needs that beautiful hulking bleakness (ST does)
14:51<andythenorth>supplies can't be both the pinnacle cago and in high-demand as an input
14:51<andythenorth>cargo *
14:51<supermop_home>FIRS art already does a good job of both, but its incongruous to see them together
14:52<supermop_home>eg fertilizer plant
14:52<supermop_home>next to blast furnace
14:52<supermop_home>one looks clean and modern, the other looks like something from the dark ages
14:53<supermop_home>I guess you could drawn modern steel mills and old looking chemical plants
14:54<supermop_home>but I like the idea of styles/climates - rust climate, pipes climate, farm climate
14:55<andythenorth>is steeltown rust belt?
14:55<supermop_home>pre-rusting
14:56<andythenorth>hmm
14:57<andythenorth>chemicals economy seriously unconvincing
14:57<andythenorth>but
14:57<andythenorth>Steeltown doesn't work, the cargo graph is ugly
14:58<supermop_home>I still think there is value in the goal being cars -> towns
14:58<andythenorth>I agree
14:58<supermop_home>currently I am playing an extreme game
14:58<frosch123>i still like adding electrical motors and transformers as visual cargo
14:58<supermop_home>and have yet to take a single supply anywhere
14:58<frosch123>not sure where to deliver them to though :)
14:59<supermop_home>frosch123: power plant!
14:59<andythenorth>ports
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15:00<supermop_home>power plants start as non functional and have to deliver the part to them
15:00<andythenorth>https://www.1999.co.jp/itbig20/10204383a.jpg
15:00<supermop_home>after which they will work for a few decades before they need more
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15:01<frosch123>if you send them to ports, it's just energy equipment
15:01<andythenorth>rocket boosters? o_O http://www.grahamstrains.com/store/image.php?type=D&id=11427
15:01<frosch123>"heavy goods"?
15:01<supermop_home>cities should need them
15:01<frosch123>heavy goods go to port, not to towen
15:01<supermop_home>for substations and large buildings
15:01<frosch123>*town
15:01<andythenorth>space launch site
15:01<supermop_home>'industrial machinery'
15:02<frosch123>that's too close to ensp
15:02<supermop_home>sell them to ports to build new industries in far off lands?
15:02<andythenorth>I can probably get salt out of the soda ash mine
15:02<andythenorth>salt -> bulk terminal, chemicals plant
15:02<andythenorth>-> plastics
15:02<andythenorth>ditch chemicals
15:02<supermop_home>andythenorth don't they just dissolve and pump it out now
15:02<supermop_home>same as potash?
15:02<andythenorth>find a way to ditch the liquids terminal
15:03<andythenorth>maybe give up Pipe as a cargo :(
15:03<supermop_home>oh potash is a salt
15:03<supermop_home>duh
15:03<frosch123>andythenorth: remove plastics
15:04<frosch123>plastics are yoghurt
15:04<andythenorth>need em for vehicles :)
15:04<andythenorth>if the vehicles chain goes back in
15:04<frosch123>vehicles which use plastic do not use steel
15:04<andythenorth>plastics was a boring cargo in PBCI though
15:04<andythenorth>PBI *
15:05<frosch123>imho go for pre 1910 economy
15:05<andythenorth>hmm
15:05<frosch123>vehicles are made from wood and steel
15:05<frosch123>rubber is the only thing remotely close to chemicals
15:05<frosch123>however, in 1900 you already have all the fancy heavy machinery
15:05<andythenorth>https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fleischmann-5297-01-K-DB-Low-loader-with-transformer-HO-scale/112621996490?hash=item1a38cb49ca:g:XywAAOSwLJ9Z7OIQ
15:08<frosch123>https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschichte_des_elektrischen_Antriebs_von_Schienenfahrzeugen#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg <- which horse roster has those?
15:09<andythenorth>hmm
15:09<andythenorth>remarkably this is not my van https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5701343,-2.9900628,3a,75y,312.86h,73.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk3_lJ5ti4eBAAXW5OIZE3w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
15:09<andythenorth>although I was right just there today in a blue Transit
15:09<supermop_home>old industry 'ashery'?
15:10<andythenorth>anyway, just here is a big steel industry around the port https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.570302,-2.9894468,3a,75y,96.8h,93.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCErKTpTSyW9Q6H_5TbwUnQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
15:10<andythenorth>and a timber yard
15:10<frosch123>what is that bridge for?
15:10<andythenorth>transporter bridge
15:10<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newport_Transporter_Bridge
15:11<supermop_home>need an early industry to cut down all the trees
15:11<andythenorth>there are no blast furnaces there, but all the tertiary industries
15:12<andythenorth>metal export, tinplate, scrap metal, etc
15:12<andythenorth>also machinery, timber
15:12<andythenorth>and my original Apple iMac was made there :P
15:13<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newport,_Wales#Economy
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>technically, "tertiary" doesn't mean "the third in the chain", but things that don't really "produce" anything, like services, consumer sales, programming, ...
15:14<andythenorth>I know, I just abuse it :|
15:14<andythenorth>in the sense of 'tertiary education'
15:15<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenscraig_steelworks 'Steelopolis'
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>there's a "Ferropolis" near here
15:15<andythenorth>what if the Iron Ore was imported, not mined? o_O
15:16<andythenorth>reducing the demand for ENSP would be interesting
15:16<andythenorth>frosch123: 1910 would allow removal of the scrap -> electric arc furnace -> steel chain :P
15:17<V453000>:D I put the locomotive on a screenshot and left it 2 times smaller accidentally
15:17<V453000>it works fine :D
15:17<V453000>48/8 confirmed
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't actually have anything to do with iron, but it's a disused open coal mine, and the huge excavators are preserved there and they make festivals in the location
15:17<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferropolis#/media/File:Ferropolis_Mainstage_360deg_airpano.jpg
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>360° images look weirdly distorted
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15:20<Eddi|zuHause>just think about how world maps are actually similarly distorted, just you don't notice it because you're not used to how it actually looks
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>PS: the lake is where the actual mining used to take place
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>(it wasn't a lake back then)
15:25*andythenorth tries to fix Steeltown then
15:25<andythenorth>no chemicals economy
15:26<andythenorth>cement / building materials /s
15:27<V453000> /tension intensifies as realistic scale is going down the shitter
15:27<V453000>unexpected turn of events eh
15:28<andythenorth>word goes out in whispered tones: V453000 has shunned realism
15:29<andythenorth>frosch123: the trick with ENSP and FMSP in the charts, is it valid for BDMT? o_O
15:30<V453000>amen
15:37<frosch123>andythenorth: originally the arrows for supplies were excluded because they went everywhere
15:37<frosch123>not necessarily because they did circles
15:38<frosch123>andythenorth: http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:constraint
15:38<andythenorth>treating building materials and packaging like supplies cleans up multiple charts
15:38<andythenorth>but leaves Builders Yard with no arrows :P
15:39<frosch123>keep the arrows, but add the no-constraint
15:39<frosch123>no arrows is useless
15:40*andythenorth delves into graphviz then
15:47<andythenorth>so where are the edges? :P
15:48<frosch123>they are the lines with ->
15:49<andythenorth>ha
15:49<andythenorth>don't remove all constraints :)
15:54<andythenorth>what does constraint do?
15:55<andythenorth>seems to force industries further right when true
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15:55<andythenorth>like an x axis forced hierarchy
15:56<frosch123>"->" orders stuff from left to right
15:57<frosch123>removing the constraint for an edge, removes that effect for the edge
15:58<frosch123>or in other words: 1. align and draw everything with constraints, 2. add the remaining stuff somehow
15:59<andythenorth>can't decide if it's better or not :)
15:59<frosch123>add copper stuff :)
15:59<frosch123>don't add aluminium
16:00<andythenorth>going to add copper
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16:01<andythenorth>removing the constraints is...not helpful :)
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16:08<Samu>I'm investigating FindIndustryToDeliver function, if it needs editing
16:10<Samu>when a vehicle is dumping cargo in a station, it accesses a list of industries near the station
16:10<Samu>only one industry will accept that cargo, in the case of 2 or more of the same kind that accept it
16:14<Samu>i'm under the impression I got to make a few changes here, still unsure if it's really needed, it's a case study
16:14<andythenorth>frosch123: can you recall if you tried different spline options?
16:14<andythenorth>o_O
16:15<Samu>one thing is the station accepting the cargo, another is the industry itself accepting the cargo
16:15<Samu>even if a station accepts the cargo, I still need to direct it to the correct industry, I think I'm not doing this at the moment
16:16<Samu>this is regarding my patch
16:17<frosch123>i tried straight lines; while it looked less chaotic it was also less readable
16:18<frosch123>if there are other options, i never tried them
16:19<andythenorth>polylines works for me, it avoids converging tangents in the bezier curves
16:20<andythenorth>but it looks more like a crazy spider :P
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16:44<V453000>iz 4-12-4?
16:49<andythenorth>iz
16:52<V453000>good
16:52<V453000>is what I needed to know
16:53<Wolf01>Made of rubber?
16:54<V453000>you mean so it could bend?
16:54<Wolf01>Yes
16:54<V453000>well it's already stretching in lengths so yeah might as well be rubber :P
16:54<Wolf01>4-12-4 could not be articulated :P
16:54<frosch123>4-12-4 is not a multiple of 16
16:56<Samu>@calc 4-12-4
16:56<@DorpsGek>Samu: -12
16:56<V453000>Wolf01: can just slice it in half :P game doesn't ask
16:56<V453000>frosch123: iz wheel countz
16:56<frosch123>ok :)
16:56<Wolf01>Wtf do you calculate 4-12-4?
16:57<Samu>I don't know
16:58<Wolf01>2K2 in german notation :P
16:58<Wolf01>Which I think it stops at E or F XD
16:59<Samu>i need a newgrf with 2 different industries, one on water, one on land, that accept the same cargo type. FIRS?
16:59<andythenorth>FIRS
16:59<Samu>which ones are they?
17:00<ST2>FIRS 3 - testers needed ^^
17:00<Samu>i got FIRS industry replacement set 2.1.5
17:00<Samu>is this the wrong version?
17:01<frosch123>firs 4
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17:02<frosch123>(andy is probably not the guy who would go for pi versioning)
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17:04<V453000>3.1.4? :P
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>should do tau...
17:06<Samu>Dedging Site and Clay Pit accept Engineering supplies, nice, one on land, one on water
17:06<frosch123>V453000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_versioning#TeX
17:06<Samu>now what produces engineering supplies?
17:07<V453000>:D ok
17:08<LordAro>frosch123: andy is not knuth?
17:08<V453000>that's just fucked up number masturbation
17:08<V453000>I like it
17:08<LordAro>i would not have guessed
17:09<frosch123>LordAro: how can you be sure about that?
17:09<LordAro>i have never seen them in the same room at the same time
17:10<Samu>Port?, right
17:11<Samu>what does enhanced production, gung-ho production mean?
17:13<andythenorth>frosch123: so http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
17:13<andythenorth>orphaned copper (needs to go to factory for electrical machines)
17:13<andythenorth>ports have not enough inputs
17:15<Samu>u talking to me andythenorth ?
17:16<supermop_home>this dairy farm has 6 refrigerated road traind serving it, and is at normal production, and I still can't carry away all the milk
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17:19<frosch123>andythenorth: export plain steel?
17:20<Dakkus>Hi there, good lovely nice people-things! Any idea why my horse carts are travelling at 2 km/h? Using the reddit-patched version of OpenTTD, but before the same patch has worked just fine. I'm guessing it's rather some NewGRF, but I have no idea which one it could be. Any guesses?
17:20<Dakkus>And the horse cart is from the eGRVT, or whatever it's called :)
17:22<Dakkus>In a downhill my horses accelerate to 20 km/h, but on flat it's only 2 km/h.
17:22<Dakkus>I find this very very sad :/
17:22<supermop_home>sounds like they don't have enough power
17:22<supermop_home>is realistic acceleration for Road Vehicles turned on?
17:23<frosch123>andythenorth: pipe->builders yard, fmsp -> trading post
17:24<Dakkus>supermop_home: Yes.
17:24<supermop_home>I vaguely remember that the horses don' work well with it
17:24<frosch123>andythenorth: copper+steel->workshop->ensp
17:25<supermop_home>because the game physics were never really designed to work with such low-powered vehicles
17:25<andythenorth>frosch123: considering deleting Pipe
17:25<andythenorth>logically
17:25<supermop_home>another posibility is the freight weight multiplier
17:25<andythenorth>kind of loses some cargo graphics
17:26<supermop_home>nice my laziness in not yet drawing pipe cargo pays off!
17:26<Dakkus>supermop_home: Even with passenger transport? Ok, will try lowering that back to 1.
17:26*andythenorth considers cargo subtypes :|
17:26<supermop_home>i think even passengers have some weight
17:26<supermop_home>but its probably the realistic acceleration
17:27<Dakkus>Nope, weight multiplier at 1 and it's still stuck.
17:27<Samu>thx FIRS, i detected a bug
17:27<supermop_home>try setting rv acceleration to original
17:28<frosch123>andythenorth: remove the farm, make trading post output food instead of ensp, deliver fmsp to trading post
17:28<andythenorth>yup
17:28<frosch123>then trading post represents all external farm, taking fmsp, delivering food and rubber
17:28<supermop_home>Midwestern economy without farms is weird tho
17:28<andythenorth>is probably fine
17:29<Dakkus>supermop_home: That did help, thanks. A bit sad, but with rv that causes less trouble than with trains.
17:29<andythenorth>I considered an aluminium recycling chain based on scrap
17:29<Dakkus>Thanks, let's see how 1858 will feel this time :)
17:29<andythenorth>but it seems too modern
17:29<frosch123>yeah, aluminium does not fit
17:29<supermop_home>i will say - I dislike temperate basic because there are no fields
17:29<supermop_home>map looks off with just green trees
17:30<andythenorth>no fields at dairy farm? :o
17:30<andythenorth>oh well :)
17:30*andythenorth needs field-objects
17:30<supermop_home>if you can patch in custom field sprites
17:30<supermop_home>...
17:30<supermop_home>for cow and sheep pastures
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17:36<andythenorth>frosch123: I deleted pipe :P
17:36<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
17:36<andythenorth>and farm
17:38<andythenorth>how many industry types should consume steel?
17:39<frosch123>2 or 3
17:40<andythenorth>agreed
17:40<andythenorth>there is plenty of room for more cargos
17:40*andythenorth considering electrical machines
17:40<andythenorth>-> port
17:41<frosch123>steel + copper -> ??? -> ensp + some export good
17:41<supermop_home>hmm, station with short-turn terminating services getting crowded
17:41<andythenorth>yes
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17:41<andythenorth>currently there is a problem that ENSP is only available by linking the whole chain
17:42<andythenorth>I've tried play-testing that in 2 different games for 2 full games, it's bad
17:42<frosch123>port -> copper -> ??? -> ensp with port-feedback loop is pretty early game
17:42<andythenorth>games / variants /s :P
17:42<andythenorth>if I allow those feedback loops, then yes, its better
17:43<supermop_home>can either build a third 'bay' track, or small yard/shunt just past the station, so terminating train arrives at up platform, runs on empty to the yard, then returns some scheduled time later at the down platform
17:43<andythenorth>sand > foundry also gets ENSP
17:44<andythenorth>other things
17:44<andythenorth>soda ash mine could export salt to bulk terminal
17:44<andythenorth>salt is quite rust-belt
17:44<supermop_home>currently just sits at the up track blocking the line then reverses, crossing to down track below station
17:44<supermop_home>which looks nice and quaint
17:44<supermop_home>andythenorth - potash
17:44<frosch123>farms with two outputs are always nice
17:45<andythenorth>or soda ash mine could produce caustic soda (lye)
17:45<frosch123>so i approve soda ash mine -> salt -> bulk terminal
17:46<andythenorth>mix soda ash with quicklime for caustic soda :P
17:46<andythenorth>or mix salt with limestone for soda ash + quicklime :P
17:46<andythenorth>I like the soda ash mine sprite though :P
17:46<frosch123>i guess that and one industry with steel+copper->???->ensp+export for port, and it's done
17:47<andythenorth>ports tend to need 2 input cargos, otherwise the boost levels are hard to reach
17:49<supermop_home>https://imgur.com/a/DZEaM
17:50<supermop_home>this ugly depot & headshunt hack replaces the nice crossover to the south :(
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17:52<andythenorth>frosch123: plastics is definitely out? o_O
17:52<frosch123>yes, plastics are yoghurt
17:52<andythenorth>ok
17:52<andythenorth>wood is out, forests need FMSP
17:53<frosch123>if you need more for prots
17:53<frosch123>port can also take vehicles
17:54<andythenorth>hmm workshop should make vehicle parts (motors and stuff)
17:54<frosch123>and trading post can also take ensp or building materials
17:55<andythenorth>I guess there are two sources of vehicles parts already
17:55<frosch123>workshop should make smaller-scale stuff
17:55<frosch123>ensp and stuff
17:55<andythenorth>I was thinking the transformers :P
17:55<andythenorth>electrical machines is a valid eye candy
17:55<frosch123>also fine, but nothing for the vehicle chain :)
17:56<andythenorth>steel finishing plant only produces vehicle bodies right now
17:56<andythenorth>galvanised steel = building materials
17:57<frosch123>if you add a second source for buildnig materials, definitely also send them to trading post
17:57<andythenorth>that will ruin the chart :D
17:57<frosch123>secondary issue :p
17:57<andythenorth>BDMT probably should be treated like supplies
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17:58<frosch123>you could reverse the ordering for ports
17:59<frosch123>port input on right, port output on left
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18:01<andythenorth>I tried headport and tailport earlier
18:01<andythenorth>as an experiment
18:02<andythenorth>I tried most graphviz options tbh :P
18:02<andythenorth>none were worth adding
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18:04<andythenorth>instead of electrical machines, how about pressure vessels? :
18:04<andythenorth>seems more steam punk
18:04<andythenorth>still needs steel + copper
18:04<frosch123>are they visually interesting?
18:04<andythenorth>dunno
18:04<frosch123>sounds rather abstract to me
18:04<supermop_home>boilers?
18:05<andythenorth>http://www.predictiveengineering.com/sites/default/files/Figure%202A.jpg
18:05<supermop_home>have odd shapes sometimes
18:05<supermop_home>reactor vessels could work
18:05<andythenorth>https://www.vestekindustries.com/markets-applications/pressure-vessels/data1/images/gulfex3.jpg
18:05<frosch123>essentially pipe :p
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18:07<andythenorth>my thoughts too :P
18:07<andythenorth>copper pipes? o_O
18:07<andythenorth>anyway http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
18:08<andythenorth>chart is once again appalling :P
18:08<andythenorth>but economy seems better
18:08<frosch123>well, in this case fmsp should be an arrow :p
18:09<andythenorth>adding building materials to steel finishing plant was worst problem
18:11*andythenorth pushes a removal of that
18:11<andythenorth>so tin mine -> tin + steel -> tinplate works
18:11<andythenorth>goods + tinplate
18:11<andythenorth>tinplate -> port
18:12<andythenorth>all the metals? o_O
18:12<andythenorth>nickel plating anyone?
18:13<andythenorth>29 cargos, 24 industries :D
18:13<andythenorth>that is quite a dense network to build
18:15<andythenorth>tin mines also often produce lead
18:17<andythenorth>copper + zinc gives brass
18:17<andythenorth>also bed :P
18:18<andythenorth>'done for tonight' http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
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18:57<Samu>guys, what is CargoMonitorMap used for?
19:00<Samu>ScriptCargoMonitor::GetIndustryDeliveryAmount
19:00<Samu>is this for game scripts?
19:00<ST2>Samu: disable it, compile and check ^^
19:00<Samu>tell me what it is
19:02<Samu>this monitoring seems to be buggy
19:02<Samu>if an industry is temporarily refusing cargo
19:02<Samu>but the other one nearby is not,
19:03<Samu>the monitoring will add that as if it was delivered
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19:04<Samu>or maybe i'm misinterpreting the purpose
19:04<Samu>what is it for, st2?
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19:05<ST2>why asking me about a newgrf from last century that's bugged by itself?
19:06<Samu>im not using it atm
19:06<Samu>but this thing is still stored in savegames
19:06<Samu>and is updated often, however, i'm not sure what's for
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19:07<ST2>me neither, I know that a wheel is round and I don't try to reinventing it
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19:08<Samu>i am wondering if it's related to a bug that happens with busybee
19:09<ST2>note: dnt mix game code with GS's
19:10<Samu>wasn't there a bug with busybee detecting cargo deliveries? i remember something
19:11<Samu>if this CargoMonitorMap is used for Game Scripts, it could be related
19:19<Cubey>I have no idea, but could it be related to this http://nogo.openttd.org/api/1.7.1/classGSCargoMonitor.html
19:22<Samu>yeah, exactly that
19:24<Samu>imagine you're delivering 10 tonnes of whatever and there are 2 industries that accept it, industry index 0 and 1
19:24<Samu>index 0 is, however, currently refusing it
19:24<Samu>index 1 accepts it
19:24<Samu>however, when sending this information to cargomonitor
19:24<Samu>it seems to reduce to both industries, the same amount
19:25<Samu>maybe i'm confused, :(
19:25<Cubey>Perhaps this is a little used function that is not working correctly?
19:26<Samu>wish i could interpret this part of the code better
19:27<Samu>when both accept
19:27<Samu>the nearest industry gets it
19:27<Samu>nearest to the station in distance manhattan
19:28<Samu>if index 0 is nerest
19:28<Samu>it goes to it
19:30<Samu>cargomonitor appears to take care of nearest industry as well
19:30<Samu>but not when nearest industry refuses it
19:33<Samu>look at cargomonitor.cpp, line 153
19:33<Samu>that for loop
19:33<Samu>then look at economy.cpp, line 1035
19:34<Samu>and line 1086
19:37<Samu>line 1116
19:37<Samu> AddCargoDelivery(cargo_type, company->index, accepted, src_type, src, st);
19:38<Samu>the "accepted" is the cargo amount that was accepted at that station, but the monitoring seems not to care which industry accepted
19:38<Samu>it
19:41<Cubey>So it sounds like the cargo monitor "works," just not exactly as described
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20:02<Wolf01>'night
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20:09<Afdal>Could someone tell me the proper syntax for setting variables from console again
20:09<Afdal>I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong here
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20:10<Afdal>isn't it just "set net_frame_freq 8" for instance?
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20:19<Samu>can u spot the difference on these two?
20:19<Samu>if (HasIndustryStation(ind) && IsTileType(st->xy, MP_STATION) && !IsOilRig(st->xy) && !_settings_game.station.accept_indcargo_at_nonindstation) continue;
20:19<Samu>if (!HasIndustryStation(ind) && IsTileType(st->xy, MP_STATION) && IsOilRig(st->xy) && !_settings_game.station.accept_nonindcargo_at_indstation) continue;
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20:27<Eddi|zuHause>possibly with =?
20:38<nick213>Hi, is there a fix to the bug where right click drag scrolling is broken on winblows10 after the last big update?
20:39<Cubey>I think I have heard that is caused by something windows 10 is doing with "mouse gestures," which I hope you can turn off
20:40<Cubey>I don't use that OS so I don't know how that is done
20:40<nick213>Thanks, I will look it up
21:02<Samu>cyas all
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21:38<joseph222>Hello
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21:48<supermop_home>here is something odd:
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21:48<supermop_home>build a truck loading bay with houses in its catchment: it won't accept passengers
21:48<supermop_home>but
21:49<supermop_home>build a dock etc with houses that accepts passengers
21:50<supermop_home>then attach a truck station
21:50<supermop_home>then remove the dock
21:50<supermop_home>now you have a truck bay that accepts passengers
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---Logclosed Mon Oct 30 00:00:01 2017