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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-11-04

---Logopened Sat Nov 04 00:00:08 2017
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04:06<andythenorth>o/
04:07<Pressure_Line>\o
04:07<Pressure_Line>playing moar with Road Hog
04:08<Pressure_Line>having the length of the vehicles listed somewhere would be useful
04:08<andythenorth>? o_O
04:09<Pressure_Line>or is it
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04:09<Pressure_Line>and im just blind/stupid
04:09*andythenorth interested
04:10<andythenorth>how would it help you?
04:10<Pressure_Line>stations
04:10<andythenorth>articulated vs. non-articulated?
04:10<andythenorth>or actual lengths?
04:11<Pressure_Line>actual lengths (like for trains
04:11<andythenorth>trams are easy, they're all 16/8 except mail tram
04:11<andythenorth>single tile length
04:11<andythenorth>trucks vary more
04:12<Pressure_Line>ahh
04:13<Pressure_Line>i thought that some of 1st gen trams (Scrooby Top etc) were 1.1 for some reason
04:13<Pressure_Line>or 0.9
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04:13<andythenorth>there was a bug where one tram was missing a wagon, so wrong length
04:13<andythenorth>rest are 16/8, makes for easy station use
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04:13<Pressure_Line>nice
04:14<Pressure_Line>nvm then ^_^
04:14<Pressure_Line>id probably be more interested in such a thing if I was a regular HEQS user
04:14<andythenorth>HEQS is a mess :)
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04:16<Pressure_Line>:D
04:33<Pressure_Line>I wonder how good V's 32bpp->8bpp converter is
04:36<alluke>i guess theres only one way to find out
04:37<alluke>why can't i login into web translator?
04:37<Pressure_Line>because reasons
04:38<Pressure_Line>did there used to be a bug w/ articulated vehicles and realistic acceleration?
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04:43<Wolf01>Moin
04:48<andythenorth>lo
04:52<Pressure_Line>o/
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05:59<alluke>COFFEEEEEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEEEEEE
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06:01<andythenorth>ok Steeltown is boring
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06:03<Pressure_Line>coffee is great
06:03<alluke>why boring
06:03<alluke>havent tested it yet
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06:22<andythenorth>is it worth switching to Windows?
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>for what purpose?
06:24<Wolf01>If for the glory of Satan, yes
06:24<andythenorth>Spintires is Windows only
06:25<andythenorth>and also Macs don't work right any more
06:27<alluke>spintires is fun, ive played it on friends pc
06:27<alluke>how mas dont work right
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>there are plenty of games available for linux nowadays
06:28<alluke>steam is great
06:28<alluke>i have ets2 and fs15
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>i barely ever started wine in the past 2 years
06:30<alluke>wine is pain in the ass to get work properly
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>i've used it for ~10 years
06:32<alluke>i tried to make gta sa run on it but cannot find the config to make graphics work properly
06:33<alluke>the shaders and such need to be tweaked
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>part of the reason why wine has declined so much for me is lack of DX11 support
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06:35<alluke>do you have nya idea how the config works
06:35<alluke>in cider its just a text file
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06:46*andythenorth wrecks FIRS more
06:46<andythenorth>delete Steeltown? o_O
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07:10<Pressure_Line>andythenorth> Spintires is Windows only
07:10<Pressure_Line>spintires is great
07:10<Pressure_Line>too bad Pavel is such a colossal tool
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07:11<PressureLine>grrr
07:11<PressureLine>want run looooong trains
07:11<PressureLine>all industries on map are rubbish
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07:17<PressureLine>http://www.oovee.co.uk/forum/topic/10589-rel-realmod/
07:17*PressureLine gasps
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07:32<andythenorth>OpenTTD is pretty unreasonable about crashing`
07:32<andythenorth>why crash when I delete a grf that's in use?
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. totally unreasonable
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07:44<andythenorth>seems like it wants something stupid, like loading sprites from disk
07:44<andythenorth>totally unreasonable
07:44<alluke>is there any way to completely remove AI from game
07:44<alluke>so they dont reload
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08:06<alluke>@andythenorth when will chips get snow-awareness? the same ground tiles firs uses atm
08:06<andythenorth>never
08:07<alluke>why
08:07<alluke>i love chips but thats the only annoying feature atm
08:07<andythenorth>what is the point of a station set with snow?
08:08<alluke>blend into th escenery
08:08<andythenorth>but then all cargo sprites look same: snow
08:08<andythenorth>and all ground types look same: snow
08:08<andythenorth>defeats the point, no?
08:09<alluke>yes but only during winter
08:09<alluke>i wouldnt snow the cargo sprites tho
08:09<andythenorth>someone could fork it
08:09<alluke>there could be some tire tracks etc to separate them a bit from ground tiles
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08:12<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/repository
08:13<alluke>does bulk terminal have any restrictions on how much water it needs around
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08:16<andythenorth>some
08:17<andythenorth>failing to build?
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08:18<alluke>i guess the lake is just too small
08:19<alluke>which firs psd file contains snow sprites? cant find
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08:19<andythenorth>depends on the industry
08:20<andythenorth>snow spritesheets in here http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/show/src/graphics/industries
08:20<andythenorth>some are also in psds, some aren't
08:20<alluke>thx
08:20<andythenorth>CHIPS lacks a coder btw
08:20<andythenorth>I have NFI how the code works
08:21<andythenorth>so your on your own for adding snow
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08:32<alluke>@andythenorth https://www.dropbox.com/s/n6uuqwuv6hdczak/groundtiles.psd?dl=1
08:36<andythenorth>yes that's the ground tile
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08:52<alluke>yep
08:52<alluke>when someone wants to code the snow awareness there are ready sprites
08:53<andythenorth>might be a while waiting :)
08:53<alluke>yeah
08:53<andythenorth>you could recode CHIPS
08:53<alluke>who coded the previous versions?
08:54<andythenorth>yexo
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08:54<alluke>and he has vanished?
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08:54<andythenorth>he's on linkedin
08:54<andythenorth>but he's busy
08:54<alluke>right
08:57<andythenorth>quak
09:04<frosch123>moiu
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09:29<andythenorth>maybe I should put explosives back into Steeltown :P
09:38<Arveen>talking about Steeltown - is it safe to upgrade the version within a running game of FIRS3 ?
09:40<andythenorth>nope
09:40<andythenorth>very not
09:40<andythenorth>:)
09:40<Arveen>Ok
09:41<Arveen>got a Steeltown game running atm in which I spend like 20 hrs so far
09:41<alluke>sucks that save games seem to have some kind of sprite cache that gets breached
09:42<alluke>orevents new firses from working properly
09:42<alluke>if upgraded too many times
09:42<andythenorth>what breaks?
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09:48<alluke>all graphics are default coal mine
09:50<andythenorth>all?
09:50<alluke>yes
09:51<alluke>if i upgrade to firs for first time it works fine, after second or third upgrade the graphics get fucked
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09:52<andythenorth>sounds quite special
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10:20<val_>I tried using notes on wiki openttd but it don't work, support it ?
10:22<val_>i've used: <ref>text</ref> and <references/>
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10:58<Samu>hi
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11:17<val_>hi
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12:04<Samu>woah
12:04<Samu>cargo packets
12:05<Samu>even cargoes have their own identity
12:05<Samu>this game is really precise
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12:05<Samu>now I understand that variety I was getting
12:09<Samu>i was thinking i'd be always working with 5 pieces at a time, then suddenly, I work with 1 piece + 4 pieces, due to this cargo packeting
12:10<Samu>now I see why the closest industry would always get higher amounts of wood
12:12<val_>wiki openttd support references, notes ?
12:15<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/Special:Version <- the extensions are listed there
12:15<LordAro>ouch, mediawiki 1.19
12:16<frosch123>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Special:Version <- grfspecs have the "cite" extension and it is used often
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12:16<LordAro>ah, orudge actually keeps his stuff up to date :p
12:18<Samu>I'm gonna call this "cargo packet fragmentation"
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12:27<Samu>- packets { size=2 } std::list<CargoPacket *,std::allocator<CargoPacket *> >
12:28<LordAro>frosch123: "This [cite] extension comes with MediaWiki 1.21 and above...."
12:28<LordAro>not exactly by choice :p
12:28<LordAro>just that ottd wiki is so old...
12:31<andythenorth>right
12:32<andythenorth>if you only use trains
12:32<andythenorth>Steeltown is the worst thing ever
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12:37<@Alberth>hi hi
12:39<val_>ok, thanks frosh
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12:46<frosch123>LordAro: i think we had to install it separately for newgrf wiki, no idea how long ago that was
12:47<frosch123>LordAro: 1.21 is from 2013, newgrfwiki is from 2011
12:48<LordAro>so someone actually updated it? :o
12:52<Samu>Industry *ind = st->industries_near[RandomRange(st->industries_near.Length())];
12:52<Samu>what's the worst that could happen? :p
12:56<@Alberth>computational melt-down?
12:58<@Alberth>total earth destruction sounds pretty bad too
12:58<@Alberth>not sure if it is significant for us
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13:03<Samu>so instead of delivering cargo to the nearest industries first, and iterating towards the farthest industries, I'm trying to deliver cargo randomly
13:04<Samu>let's see how biased RandomRange is
13:05<Samu>woah, not so biased after all
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13:07<Samu>https://imgur.com/UcC28ly
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13:07<Samu>not bad, i expected worse
13:09<@Alberth>discrete uniform distribution is quite nicely flat indeed :)
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13:10<Samu>hmm, there is a problem, i don't count 240 total :(
13:10<Samu>only 217, something is wrong :(
13:11<@Alberth>industry rating?
13:11<Samu>no, they have no ratings
13:11<Samu>something's wrong with the iterator
13:11<Samu> for (uint i = 0; i < st->industries_near.Length() && num_pieces != 0; i++) { Industry *ind = st->industries_near[RandomRange(st->industries_near.Length())];
13:12<Samu>there are 11 industries
13:13<Samu>randomrange(11) does make it pick a number from 0-10? or 0-11?
13:14<@Alberth>no idea, the docs should make that clear
13:16<@Alberth>why do you stop after "Length" iterations?
13:17<Samu>maybe that's it?
13:18<@Alberth>I am not even sure why you iterate at all, tbh, you split the delivered cargo in small pieces?
13:19<Samu>yes, 1 by 1, with a do, while
13:19<@Alberth>nice if you need to deliver 3000 cargo
13:20<Samu>it does per wagon
13:21<Samu>5 at a time, maximum, if the cargo packet isn't fragmented
13:21<Samu>then it's 4 +1 or 3 + 2, etc
13:21<Samu>@calc 240 / 5
13:21<@DorpsGek>Samu: 48
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13:23<Samu>i got 11 industries in this case and a random number of pieces going from 1 to 5
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13:28<Samu>hmm, the iterator only iterates 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, then it runs out of pieces
13:28<Samu>never got random being = 11
13:29<Samu>so that's fine, then why the sum of all pieces delivered by the train isn't 240 ?
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13:33<@Alberth>delivering a large amount to only a few industries will likely trigger your Length limitation
13:34<@Alberth>print how much you deliver to what
13:35<Samu>the train brings 240
13:35<Samu>i was expecting the sum of all goods produced to be 240
13:36<Samu>now I got 224, something is being lost :(
13:37<@Alberth>@calc 224/240.0
13:37<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 0.933333333333
13:38<@Alberth>bit high for station rating, isn't it?
13:39<Samu>station rating doesn't matter here :(
13:39<Samu>it's the industry taking delivered cargo
13:39<Samu>the station accepts, and there 11 industries near the station
13:39<@Alberth>"goods" is produced cargo, not delivered cargo
13:40<Samu>the sum of all "production last month" should be 240
13:40<@Alberth>no
13:40<Samu>no? :(
13:41<@Alberth>accepted cargo amount and delivered cargo amounts are not equal
13:41<@Alberth>the station rating fraction is between them
13:41<@Alberth>try unpatched openttd with 1 industry
13:42<Samu>it delivers 240
13:42<Samu>nothing is lost
13:43<Samu>yep, 240, just tested
13:43<Samu>on 1.7.1
13:43<Samu>1 industry got it all
13:44<Samu>https://imgur.com/a/Nr0lk 1.7.1
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13:46<Samu>let me try more asserts
13:47<@Alberth>hmm, how weird
13:47<@Alberth>did you try to deliver to the same industry more than once?
13:48<Samu>yes, it can do that, can't it?
13:48<Samu>random is random
13:48<@Alberth>yep
13:49<Samu>ind->incoming_cargo_waiting[cargo_index] += amount;
13:51<@Alberth>that line looks fine
13:51<Samu>gonna try my old method, isntead of a random iterator
13:51<@Alberth>did you sum how much cargo you tried to deliver for a second or later time to the same industry?
13:54<Samu>not sure I understand the question
13:55<Samu>@calc 43+49+53+47+48
13:55<@DorpsGek>Samu: 240
13:55<Samu>my old way is doing correct
13:55<Samu>i wonder if it can be delivered twice to the same industry
13:56<Samu>gonna try ind = 0
13:56<Samu>Industry *ind = st->industries_near[0];
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13:57<Samu>240 to one industry, it worked... very odd
13:59<Wolf01>https://www.packtpub.com/packt/offers/free-learning seems interesting
13:59<Samu>i dont understand why it fails if it's random
14:00<Samu>can r be negative?
14:00<Samu>random
14:01<Wolf01>Is industries_near randomized each time?
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14:04<Samu>if the length can be at times less than 11? I don't think that can happen
14:04<@Alberth>remove an industry :p
14:05<Samu>i didn't remove any, they're all there yet
14:05<Samu>so, it should always be 11 nearby industries
14:07<Samu>gonna try another assert
14:07<Samu>brb
14:08<Samu>assert(st->industries_near.Length() == 11);
14:08<Samu>keks
14:10<Samu>nop, it ain't this
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14:10<Samu>gonna demolish one, see if it crashes
14:11<Samu>yep, crashed openttd right away
14:11<Samu>assert(r < st->industries_near.Length() && r >= 0);
14:11<Samu>also tried that, never crashed because of it
14:12<Samu>RandomRange is doing fine
14:12<Samu>unless an industry temporarily refuses cargo? but how can that happen?
14:16<@Alberth>pnly newgrf industries can do that, eg ECS
14:16<@Alberth>*only
14:17<@Alberth>not sure if you can deliver cargo to the same industry multiple times
14:17<@Alberth>(for newgrf industries)
14:17<Samu>i tried it just a moment ago, delivered piece by piece
14:18<Samu>240 were delivered to the same industry
14:18<@Alberth>ok, so double deliveries are not a problem apparently
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14:36<Samu> i->produced_cargo_waiting[0] = min(i->produced_cargo_waiting[0] + (cargo_waiting * indspec->input_cargo_multiplier[cargo_index][0] / 256), 0xFFFF);
14:36<Samu>could be a rounding error from this?
14:37<Samu>hmm nah, strange if it was
14:45<Samu>this_month_production, how is this being updated?
14:46<Samu>must investigate
14:49<alluke>installed yellow headlights to my car
14:51<Wolf01>Why you do that?
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14:59<alluke>because its old and french
14:59<alluke>retro look
15:00<Samu>RecomputeProductionMultipliers - i wonder if this has an impact on cargo
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15:01<Samu>i deliver 240 wood, but the industry could perhaps produce half of it?
15:01<Samu>120 goods?
15:01<Samu>could something like that happen?
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15:02<Samu>half of 1 is 0
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15:03<Samu>maybe the missing cargo originates from this? how can i tell?
15:18<Wolf01>http://sbiii.com/bwdhggpx/x4hopper.jpg Ahahah
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15:20<Wolf01>Aahahahahha lol a 0-2-0 http://sbiii.com/bwdhggpx/ggburdik.jpg
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16:02<andythenorth>o/
16:07<NGC3982>\o
16:07<NGC3982>zup
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16:37<Samu>bah, alberth is gone
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16:40<Samu>anyways, I just manually calculated every sum each industry was receiving
16:40<Samu>i got 240, therefore it's a display problem
16:41<Samu>the problem isn't originating where I made changes, but further down the code
16:41<Samu>past it
16:43<Samu>i'm suspicious of production last month not being updated correctly?
16:44<Samu>or not in time?
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17:04<AcMafee>Hello
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17:35<Samu>this is really strange, i just got 254 now
17:35<Samu>got 241 before this last delivery
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19:00<Samu>i finally got this!
19:02<Samu> if (cw > indspec->minimal_cargo && i->produced_cargo[j] != CT_INVALID) {
19:02<Samu>that minimal_cargo
19:03<Samu>cargo waiting must be higher than the minimal_cargo
19:03<Samu>which is 5 for all industries
19:03<Samu>sometimes the cargo waiting was less
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19:13<Samu>Run Tile Loop versus Call Landscape Tick
19:14<Samu>so my implementation isn't bugged, it's just the way it works
19:15<Samu>now I get it
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