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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-11-11

---Logopened Sat Nov 11 00:00:18 2017
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02:51<PressureLine>So what did I miss?
02:53<PressureLine>andythenorth: Road Hod 1.2.1 | Drumbeck Tanker Tram | uses electric sparks even though it is a steam tram
02:57<andythenorth>how rude
02:58<andythenorth>I'll fix it
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03:15<PressureLine>much tramz
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05:23<andythenorth>mostly tanks
05:28<@Alberth>tank train set :)
05:33<Wolf01> BTW, it looks ridiculous
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05:44<Wolf01> lol
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06:04<Samu>Alberth: remember that code for airplanes I thought it was useless? I think I understand now what it was supposed to be doing.
06:04<Samu>it's in the wrong place
06:05<Samu>it should be placed right after leaving a terminal
06:07<Samu>before heading to next destination, check if it needs autoservicing
06:08<Samu>gonna try fix this
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06:47<Flygon><Wolf01> BTW, it looks ridiculous
06:47<Flygon>LEGO Army
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>looks a bit like those large model trains where people can sit on it
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07:53<Samu>this is harder to fix than i thought
07:54<Samu>when the aircraft enters a terminal, it v->BeginLoading();
07:54<Samu>BeginLoading is doing a lot of stuff... inclusing changing the next station to visit :(
07:55<Samu>i wasn't expecting that :(
08:00<Samu>if I do a check if aircraft needs auto servicing, it will be sending the aircraft to the next airport to visit, and not the airport it's currently at :(
08:01<Samu>that's innefficient :(
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08:46<Samu>CheckIfAircraftNeedsService function is becoming too big :(
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11:30<andythenorth>world of tanks is addictive
11:32<V453000>made a smart rendering script for articulated vehicle consisting of 1 model
11:32<V453000>of course there were errors :)
11:33<V453000> and I was so confused that I even re-checked the blender camera setup because I though it's coming from that, even though the math in there is ultra trivial and everything is ultra consistent with the game
11:34<V453000>hopefully fixed :)
11:35<V453000> /me is back to train set after making PURR and building 700 trains over a few days on our welcome server for "testing purr scientific purposes" :D
11:36<V453000>andythenorth: do you know some way how to extract layers individually from PSD ?
11:38<V453000>seems functional?
11:40<V453000>currently I was ordering sprites in After Effects but if I can export layers from photoshop automatically, shit's dope
11:40<V453000>being able to remove Ae from the workflow would make it even easier to script ... I could make some exporting script for Ae in javascript but I don't want to touch js if I can avoid it for now
11:42<andythenorth>V453000: never tried layer extraction
11:43<V453000>will try Export a single layer: >>> layer_image = layer.as_PIL() >>>'layer.png')
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13:01<Snail>hey guys
13:01<Snail>question for you… when does the recoloring callback get updated, for trains?
13:02<Snail>it used to be the “callback 32 days” (CB_32DAY), but I believe things got quite messed up at a certain point...
13:03<frosch123>the main misunderstanding is that it is only guaranteed when the cb is called
13:03<frosch123>it is never said when it is not called
13:04<frosch123>some newgrf authors assume that the coloring is stored persistently, but that is just plain wrong, and has always been wrong
13:05<frosch123>the 32day flag means that the color is updated *at least* every 32 days
13:05<frosch123>it does *not* mean that it is updated *at most* every 32 days
13:05<Snail>well, to my understanding, the coloring is always cached, and only occasionally updated
13:05<Snail>ok, got it
13:05<Snail>so which other cases is the recoloring also updated in?
13:06<Snail>for instance, I experience this happening when reaching a station… or when loading some cargo...
13:06<Snail>it’d help to have a list of these events
13:06<frosch123>it may also happen when the track type changes
13:06<frosch123>the list is endless
13:07<frosch123>if you want to make stuff depend on date, use the date of last service
13:07<Snail>yes, I’m already using it for other purposes
13:08<frosch123>caching is to make stuff faster by not updating them all the time, it is no storage
13:08<frosch123>if we find a way to make ottd multi-core we may not cache it at all and always update it
13:08<Snail>I was wondering if it was possible to add a functionality, that would allow us to update recoloring *only* every 32 days
13:09<frosch123>no :)
13:09<Snail>well, I guess it’d require a new callback?
13:09<frosch123>use "days since last service" / 32 or something
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13:20<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't there a 30 day callback? or was that 30 ticks?
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13:24<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it exists, but as long there is no persistent storage, it's pretty useless
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>ah, yeah, i can see the issue
13:25<frosch123>it's some kind of indirection, call this callback first before calling the others
13:25<frosch123>but you could achieve the same by just calling the other callbacks
13:34<Snail>frosch123: the aim of CB32 was to get vehicles recolored at random times (as 32 days would be)
13:35<Snail>if recoloring is also updated in countless other situations, what I just said would not work
13:35<frosch123>if it is random, then use random bits?
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13:35<Snail>I meant at random times
13:36<Snail>random bits can only be reinitialized at certain well-specified events (loading, building, servicing…)
13:36<frosch123>there is also the 32day trigger for rerandomisation
13:37<frosch123>if it is about updated, iirc supermob changed livery at "current date" > "date for new vehicle generation" + "random delay"
13:38<frosch123>there vehicles get new liveries in certain years, but for individual vehicles the repainting is delayed by a random span
13:39<Snail>yes, I’m also doing something similar
13:39<Snail>I’m changing the liveries in waves
13:39<Snail>but this only happens when a vehicle enters the depot, of course
13:39<Snail>I was talking about wagons changing colors outside of the depots
13:40<Snail>like when the train is moving
13:40<Snail>so far, changing colors almost always occurs when the train reaches a station, because that’s one event trat updates the recoloring cache
13:40<Snail>I would ideally require the recoloring not to be updated when it reaches a station, but only every 32 days
13:41<frosch123>well, do not think about the update moment, but rather about how to get the coloring for every moment
13:42<frosch123>assume the update would happen every tick
13:42<Snail>that would solve my problem
13:43<Snail>but unfortunately it doesn’t happen every tick :)
13:43<frosch123>what does it depend on?
13:43<frosch123>current date?
13:43<Snail>difference between last depot visit and current date
13:43<Snail>it’s already different from wagon to wagon, based on random bits
13:44<Snail>that get reinitialized at every depot visit
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>you mean something like it's dirty when it's not serviced after <x> days?
13:45<Snail>something like that
13:45<frosch123>hmm, i guess you can also drop the recoloring callback and use the vehicle stack recoloring capability
13:45<frosch123>that one updates whenever the vehicle moves
13:45<Snail>you mean at every tick?
13:45<frosch123>at every movement step
13:45<Snail>ah, nice
13:46<frosch123>well, also at every loading step
13:46<Snail>but that would require a majotr rewrite in the code :p
13:46<frosch123>i don't know your code :)
13:46<frosch123>but i would expect only changing like 3 lines
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>per vehicle :p
13:47<frosch123>possibly that
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>and per livery
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>and per magic push-pull-whatever
13:47<V453000>frosch123: of course my rendering script had a bug
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>it quickly becomes complicated :p
13:47<frosch123>essentially: instead of linking the decision for the color to the callback, link it to the regular drawing chain and store the result in some register
13:47<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: no, not per livery
13:48<frosch123>exactly once per callback-id switch
13:48<V453000>I have a 3-part 24/8 vehicle and each of the 8/8 has it's own controller, it's final frame scaling was leaking to the next sequence frame 0 :) now it resets itself properly
13:50<Snail>“its”, not “it’s” ;)
13:50<andythenorth>free-to-play tank game
13:50<andythenorth>most MP games are me, with low level tanks
13:50<andythenorth>getting destroyed by people who've spent $$ to have OP tanks
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>that's kind of a point of these games
13:51<frosch123>andythenorth: i thought it's about recognising every tank and knowing the plating structure
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>match the non-paying players with paying players, to get more of them to pay
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't there recently an outcry about some company patenting such a matching algorithm?
13:53<frosch123>yes, it was on jimquisition
13:54<andythenorth>frosch123: I can't recognise the tanks :P
13:54<andythenorth>I have NFI where to aim
13:55<frosch123>andythenorth: isn't there some wiki?
13:55<frosch123>also, as a brittish person, aren't you supposed to prefer battleships?
13:59<andythenorth>I only have 13" laptop screen, I'd have to have the wiki open on a tablet
14:00<andythenorth>judging by how many tanks don't move at game start, maybe lots of players are reading the wiki first :P
14:04<frosch123>there is nothing weird with using your phone inside of a tank
14:04<frosch123>try to get one with good wifi
14:06<Samu>noob question
14:06<Samu>if (a->FindClosestDepot(NULL, &destination, NULL) && o->GetDestination() != destination)
14:06<Samu>what is the value of the 2nd destination in that block?
14:06<Samu>the one returned from FindClosestDepot?
14:07<Samu>or the one before it?
14:13<Samu>there's the vehicle vehicle, the real thing, and the vehicle engine, the model
14:14<Samu>i'm not entirely satisfied about helicopters servicing at helipads
14:15<Samu>why does this setting even exist :8
14:15<Samu>it ruins servicing
14:15<Samu>automatic servicing, that is
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>i imagine it's pretty boring inside of a tank most of the time
14:26<frosch123>all military stuff is pretty boring most of the time
14:41<Samu>i'm gonna change this helipad servicing a bit, instead of "on landing", i'm making it "on departing"
14:42<Samu>avoids OT_LOADING crap always returning false
14:43<Samu>how to detect helipads
14:49<Samu>why can't i autoreplace airplanes with helicopters? :(
14:49<Samu>sometimes I don't mind that being possible
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15:04<V453000>frosch123: my 20k+ RVs friend got his stuff raised by someone to 50k, but that's not why I write ... he was doing a test and he used roadhog vehicles vs. some longvehicles or something, he's assuming that using articulated parts slows down more than using full non-articulated vehicles. Is this the case, and is there something similar happening for trains?
15:06<frosch123>a single articulated part is obviously less expensive than a full vehicle
15:06<frosch123>it does not do pathfinding or acceleration, and also skips half of the properties
15:06<frosch123>but a 3-part articulated vehicle is obviously more expensive than a 1-part vehicle which does the same job
15:07<V453000>is there any estimation how much?
15:07<frosch123>so, the question is rather, what's the ratio between capacity and articulated parts
15:07<frosch123>i have no idea. usually people test train performance :p
15:08<V453000>:P I'm just wondering if making all vehicles split in 3 parts in a train set for big networks is that much of a good idea
15:08<frosch123>and in train performance the acceleration was noticeable, which is only done by the front
15:08<frosch123>essentially, the front part does stuff every tick
15:08<frosch123>the other parts only do something when the front moves
15:08<V453000>my vehicles move all the time :P
15:09<frosch123>they do 1800 km/h?
15:09<frosch123>(random number, don't know the limit)
15:15<frosch123>V453000: so, in summary, 1/8 articulated parts are worse than 8/8 :)
15:15<frosch123>8 times the graphics to resolve for a train of same length
15:16<V453000>even if graphics are only on 1 unit and rest has some 8bpp placeholder only?
15:18<frosch123>traditionally ottd checks for new graphics also when vehicles are currently not visible
15:18<frosch123>noone changed that yet
15:19<V453000>:) ok
15:19<V453000>so it's mainly drawing issues then? Since the other tasks seem to be relatively low performance
15:20<V453000>esp with 32bpp/EZ + 4 layers
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15:23<PressureLine>time to see if I can get NML to work :D
15:24<frosch123>4x does not affect performance for many trains
15:26<PressureLine>oh goody. this nml file is commented... in russian.
15:27<Wolf01>Usually comments are for the one who wrote the code, not for others :P
15:28<PressureLine>luckily nml is actually quite readable without the comments anyway
15:29<PressureLine>reminds me a bit of lua
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15:30<PressureLine>so. for lazy nml method: "The easy route is to extract all the NML program files in the same directory as your NML project"
15:30<V453000>well theoretically I guess I can make a paramter for using articulation? Although it's something that I guess would completely fuck with grf compatibility with itself
15:31<V453000>probably best to just ignore any needless articulation for no w
15:31<V453000>main reason would be the bending in curves for 24 rotations
15:31<frosch123>V453000: i'll make a profile for psg325
15:31<PressureLine><V453000> main reason would be the bending in curves for 24 rotations
15:31<PressureLine>sounds like the timecube!
15:32<V453000>frosch123: interested :)
15:32<V453000>waiting for rezults :P
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15:32<V453000>making offsets work meanwhile
15:32<frosch123>so we can see how much cpu is eaten by vehicle fronts, vehicle parts and industry animation
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15:32<V453000>industry animation 98% :>
15:33<Samu>i hate service at helipad setting :(
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15:34<PressureLine>marginally embarassing :<
15:35<PressureLine>if im being lazy with NML install
15:35<PressureLine>and i have "F:\NML" folder
15:35<PressureLine>and downloaded source of grf from devzone
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15:36<PressureLine>do I just wallop the contents of the E:\Downloads\xussr-r6494-source.tar.xz\xussr-r6494-source.tar\xussr-r6494-source\ folder straight into the NML folder?
15:36<PressureLine>or do put the folder inside the .tar into the nml folder
15:42<@Alberth>depends on how xussr finds nmlc
15:43<PressureLine>I don't even know how to answer that :D
15:43<@Alberth>and how easy it is to customize it to your setup :p
15:44<@Alberth>ie there is no fixed place for a project relative to nml
15:44<@Alberth>nml is a generic compiler you typically use it in multiple projects
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15:55<frosch123>xussr uses make and cpp and stuff
15:56<frosch123>so you will have a hard time to compile it on windows
15:56<PressureLine>oh goody
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15:59<PressureLine>would it just be easier to write an override grf for the speed check then
16:01<frosch123>hmm, 63% of cpu time in a game month is used for resolving trains sprites (doing the switches, not doing the drawing)
16:01<frosch123>i did not remember it being that bad
16:01<frosch123>damn, i wanted do to other stuff, not optimising this :/
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16:03<V453000>holy shit
16:03<V453000>my new train set is supposed to have shitloads of graphical switches :D
16:04<V453000>is that considering pathfinding frosch123 ?
16:05<frosch123>pathfinder is like 3.5%
16:06<V453000>I expected like 90% on that
16:07<frosch123>well, it can be a good thing, it's a big opportunity for optimising ottd
16:08<V453000>good point :?
16:09<V453000>well that would explain why some people say NUTS is performance demanding for them
16:09<V453000>NUTS uses a lot of graphics switches for wagons especially
16:09<frosch123>well, two
16:10<V453000>right, but big ones
16:10<frosch123>in one game months it resolved 53million vehicles sprites
16:10<V453000>is the number of switches or big amount of switch outcomes worse?
16:10<frosch123>which involved 94million switches
16:10<frosch123>so, two on average
16:10<V453000>ok that's not so bad I guess
16:10<PressureLine>damnit. where did they hide the variable running costs code
16:13<V453000>so theoretically is 1 giant switch for all cargo labels worse or better than many less outputs in 4 individual switches in 4 vehicle layers?
16:16<frosch123>currently 10% is finding the right case within a switch
16:16<frosch123>but that is also something that can be optimised in theory
16:25<V453000>is it like a sequence going one by one and as soon as it finds a right value it returns it?
16:25<V453000>so I could use more likely things at the front?
16:26<V453000>also does the store_temp somehow do bad things like extra performance if I do it for every train multiple times?
16:29<frosch123>putting the more likely ones first is better
16:29<frosch123>store_temp as expensive as say "+"
16:30<V453000>at least something :P
16:30<frosch123>it's nothing special compared to everything else
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16:36<frosch123>3% faster by moving a single line
16:51<V453000>offsets are pain. Looking forward to have this done :D
16:51<V453000>for now gnight
16:55*andythenorth enough tanks
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17:24<Samu>_settings_game.order.serviceathelipad... why do u exist :(
17:24<PressureLine>for helicopters that *never* land at an airport
17:25<Samu>it breaks autorenew
17:25<Samu>or autoreplace
17:25<Samu>it can get to the point it's serviced too often, and never triggers autoreplace :(
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17:27<Samu>i have another issue with this... airports without helipads, if the heli is going between these, my fix will fail
17:28<Samu>i can't assumer the heli goes to every place with helipags
17:28<PressureLine>what does your fix fix?
17:28<Samu>my idea was to ignore the service interval cycle checking, and only check if it needs replacing
17:29<PressureLine>but what does that *fix* ?
17:29<Samu>fixes autoreplace
17:29<PressureLine>what about it is broken?
17:29<Samu>if it services too often, it would never autoreplace
17:30<Samu>i fix one thing, but break another :8
17:30<PressureLine>isnt autorepace tied to the *age* of the vehicle, not the reliability
17:31<Samu>autoreplace is checked inside the v->needsautomaticservice
17:31<Samu>or whatevr its called
17:31<Samu>bool Vehicle::NeedsServicing() const
17:32<PressureLine>"Autorenew when vehicle is [time] after max age." [Y/N]
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17:33<Samu>that thing is still part of "NeedsServicing"
17:33<PressureLine>"Autorenew vehicle when it gets old. [Y/N]."
17:33<PressureLine>doesnt it still work when you send it manually to a depot?
17:33<Samu>manually, yes
17:34<PressureLine>which you can do regardless of whether it needs serviceing or not
17:34<Samu>automatically, it would depend on the servicing interval
17:35<Samu>if the heli travels too fast between helipads, it resets the interval
17:35<Samu>and never gets the chance to see if it needs autoreplacing
17:35<PressureLine>have you actually checked to see if it *does* break autoreplace?
17:36<Samu>yes, it breaks it
17:37<PressureLine>simpler 'solution'
17:37<PressureLine>change the helptext for the service @ helipad optiion
17:38<PressureLine>++(breaks autoreplace)
17:39<Samu>ok, that is an idea, in the case I can't come up with a better solution
17:39<Samu>a warning is better than nothing
17:39<PressureLine>easiest to 'code' too
17:40<PressureLine>are there any reports from users of that being an issue?
17:41<Samu>yes, let me find
17:41<PressureLine>i believe
17:42<PressureLine>if a heli is old
17:42<Samu>ops, giant link
17:42<PressureLine>ie past autorenew threshold
17:42<PressureLine>with helipad servicing
17:43<PressureLine>and it gets either a "goto depot" by clicking the button
17:43<PressureLine>or via a go to depot order in the order queue
17:43<PressureLine>does autorenew work?
17:44<Samu>yes, if you send it to a depot manually, yes
17:44<PressureLine>what about in the order queue?
17:45<Samu>if the order to depot is from it's orders, yes, it will renew
17:45<Samu>the problem is only for automatic servicing
17:45<PressureLine>i think it may be because the 'service' doesnt happen in a depot
17:46<PressureLine>not a proper one anyway
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17:46<PressureLine>f-ex you can't buy a new helicopter at the helipad 'station'
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17:48<PressureLine>so if you can't buy a new vehicle there, there's no mechanism for the aurorenew to work
17:48<Samu>i somewhat tried to solve that problem of helis on 2 heliports. It will search for a hangar from another source, but this may break aircraft range on the way back
17:49<PressureLine>aircraft range is a broken mechanic anyway imo
17:49<Samu>i tried to limit the range which it can search
17:49<Samu>not sure if it's enough
17:49<Samu>meh, lots of things to test yet :(
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17:53<frosch123>8% faster
17:59<Samu>gonna try fracture bool Vehicle::NeedsServicing() const into two functions
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17:59<Samu>just because of the ugly serviceathelipad
18:00<PressureLine>better to just add user warning to setting
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18:01<PressureLine>"Aircraft using helipads will not autoreplace/autorenew without an explicit order to enter depot/hangar"
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18:19<Samu>introducing: bool Vehicle::PendingReplace() const
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18:20<Samu>helicopterinos will check this after landing
18:20<Samu>effectively going thru the interval cycle
18:21<Samu>or, not going through
18:21<Samu>my english
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20:23<PressureLine>nfo format question
20:24<PressureLine>to change both the max speed and max length of a bridge
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20:27<PressureLine> 6 * 8 00 06 // Action 0 - feature: bridges.
20:27<PressureLine> 02 01 // 2 property, 1 bridge.
20:27<PressureLine> 01 // Default TTD bridge id - 01 = concrete bridge
20:27<PressureLine> 0A 03 00 // Property 0A - max. length -> 5 tiles (including bridge heads)
20:27<PressureLine> 0C 40 00 // Property 0C - max. speed -> 64 kph (hex)
20:27<PressureLine>is correct?
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20:30<Eddi|zuHause>you should probably not set the sprite number and length, but let nforenum figure those out
20:30<PressureLine>its an existing nfo that im adding the max length to
20:31<Eddi|zuHause>also, you should check whether the property has byte/word/dword length
20:31<PressureLine>well i have the prop 0C working already
20:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but each property may have a different length
20:32<PressureLine>and copied the 0A prop from an existing grf (longer girder, steel bridge)
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>well, that may be ok, but the point is that you actually go to the newgrf-specs wiki and check
20:39<Samu>sorry, gotta go, tc
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20:44<PressureLine>yup. did :) and changed the sprite length (and 0A prop length) to be correct
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21:39<PressureLine>how much importance should I put on train round-trip being <1 year
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 12 00:00:19 2017