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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-12-18

---Logopened Mon Dec 18 00:00:10 2017
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07:03<@Alberth>hi hi
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08:12<@planetmaker>o/
08:13<@planetmaker>Alberth, you're my python standard. Concerning nmlc, would it maybe make sense to integrate something like pcpp, thus have a native preprocessor instead of relying on cpp to include stuff?
08:13<@planetmaker>and parse macros (if any)?
08:14<@Alberth>pcpp ?
08:14<@planetmaker>or should that be something newly-developed tailored to nmlc in specific
08:14<LordAro>planetmaker: some would say that if you're having to do such things in python that you're doing it wrong
08:14<LordAro>:p
08:14<@planetmaker>https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pcpp
08:14<@planetmaker>LordAro, a shorter toolchain would lower the bar tremendously :)
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08:16<@Alberth>it's 2.7 so that won't fly, but otherwise, I am very much in favour of killing cpp
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08:16<@planetmaker>and possibly using pymake instead of make
08:16<LordAro>2.7 is your other issue :p
08:16<@planetmaker>which is supposedly a full implementation of make in python (both 2 and 3)
08:16<@Alberth>whether pcpp is the road is not clear to me (despite the version problem)
08:17<@planetmaker>ok, I didn#t chechk the version for pcpp. That's bad
08:17<V453000>it's a snake!
08:17<@planetmaker>no, to me neither. I'm not sure it would be good... it's just an idea which recently popped into my mind
08:17<@Alberth>I'd prefer a nmlc extension tbh
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08:18<@Alberth>make isn't that useful for nmlc projecte imho
08:18<@Alberth>you run the full build anyway
08:18<@planetmaker>well... yes. But something has to run the full build
08:19<@Alberth>blah.bat
08:19<@Alberth>or even a standard naming convention
08:19<@planetmaker>which would be Makefile ;)
08:19<@planetmaker>pymake seems to be the way mozilla went
08:19<@Alberth>having a Makefile is not the problem, having to use /usr/bin/make is :)
08:19<@planetmaker>pymake is a python replacement for /usr/bin/make
08:20<@planetmaker>thus could be shipped from the same source, with the same requirements
08:20<@Alberth>assuming a grf author has no understanding of make, it's a 2-line script
08:21<@Alberth>gcc -E -C blah.pnml ; nmlc blah.nml
08:21<@Alberth>anything beyond that implies understanding and editing of the makefile
08:22<@Alberth>at which point, having make isn't a major issue anymore, I think
08:24<@Alberth>if you rename blah.pnml to blah.main_nml you can find the entry point of the grf as well
08:25<@Alberth>the main problem with the cpp macros is that they are much black magic with ## and #macro stuff
08:26<@planetmaker>yupp. Yet they are nice ways to generate stuff which one would need to type out every time otherwise
08:26<@Alberth>and locally created and erased macros, iirc
08:26<@planetmaker>I don't particularily like them obsuring what one is doing either.
08:27<@Alberth>I discussed with andy what needed to be changed in nmlc, having local variables was one of them
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08:31<__ln__>i'm sure people will stay out of the channel now
08:34<@Alberth>we weren't done yet :p
08:35<@Alberth>planetmaker: I think march 4 2017, 07:53 am european time
08:35<@planetmaker>local variables... but I think you can do that, can't you?
08:36<@planetmaker>you need a way to generate names
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08:45<@Alberth>what names?
08:46<@Alberth>currently you construct unique names to avoid clashes, since nmlc uses global scoping
08:47<@Alberth>but many of the variables are local in nature, only needed for a few related switches
08:48<@Alberth>you are as programmer not even interested in the actual name of the variable, eg a compiler could make a name by appending a random number to it??
08:49<@Alberth>although it's simpler to connect scopes and assigned variable indices directly together, at least conceptually
08:50<@Alberth>as it avoids having to do a lot of usage analysis in the code
08:50<@planetmaker>ah, ok, you mean local in that context
08:51<@planetmaker>yes, then local names would probably work, too
08:52<@planetmaker>the typical thing I think of is a separate naming of a vehicle and related naming of its switches for graphics and various callbacks. or for tile-based stuff for the object/industry and its related ones
08:52<@planetmaker>how local are those names?
08:53<@planetmaker>but yeah... maybe definition of a scope would solve it
08:53<@planetmaker>then each vehicle has a top line like
08:53<@planetmaker>scope(my_greatest_engine_ever_with_super_duper_slug_drive)
08:53<@planetmaker>item(FEAT_VEH,...) {...}
08:53<@planetmaker>...
08:54<@planetmaker>scope(my_greatest_engine_new_edition)
08:54<@planetmaker>...
08:55<@planetmaker>It would require you to structure you code such that things which belong together are grouped together. But... that's ok, I guess :) You cannot have everything anyway
09:00<@Alberth>you can give scope a name, and explicitly refer to a variable in such a named scope :p
09:00<@Alberth>tmwftlb, I think
09:01<@Alberth>ie my_greatest_engine_new_edition.switch_result
09:01<@planetmaker>yeah, like that
09:01<@Alberth>or my_greatest_engine_new_edition::switch_result in c++-ish
09:01<@planetmaker>as it differs between every engine, it needs a different name currently for each
09:01<@Alberth>or some other separator
09:02<@planetmaker>thus you cannot copy&paste
09:02<@Alberth>but I doubt cross-scope names would be used often
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09:03<@Alberth>obviously, I could be wrong :D
09:03<@planetmaker>I'm trying to remember... with refit stuff it would be shared among different wagons
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09:03<@planetmaker>thus all PAX wagons share the same rules, all flatbed ones the same ones and a 3rd rule for tankers, or something like that
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09:08<@Alberth>I don't have the exact proposal in my head (if there even is one), but in principle you can make some variables global if you want
09:09<@Alberth>simplest is by declaring them as global, or declaring local variables as local, or by "exporting" a variable (ie making it explicitly switch from local to global), or some other mechanism
09:10<@Alberth>plenty of options there that differ in details only
09:12<@Alberth>I once tried adding macros iirc, and at pure parser level it wasn't that hard iirc, don't quite remember what broke it :(
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09:35<@planetmaker>hm :)
09:35<@planetmaker>@logs
09:35<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
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13:24<andythenorth>o/
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13:43<Wolf01>o/
13:45<Wolf01>Another train derailed, asked my father where: "aeiou.. America"
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13:46<RafiX2>wow
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13:46<RafiX>finally I could join
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13:50<Samu_>hi
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13:52<Samu>Cargo Flow Legend doesn't work on viewport windows. is that intended?
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14:07<@Alberth>you selected a cargo or a company?
14:07<@Alberth>*and
14:08<@Alberth>oh, viewport windows, sorry I misread.
14:08<@Alberth>Likely it is, as you typically don't have an overview there
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14:35<V453000>:0 I can use git for devzone?
14:35<V453000>that's kind of tempting as people at work can help me with it :)
14:36<V453000>probably better to keep hg I guess
14:37<frosch123>we have like 2 git projects
14:37<Wolf01>Mmmh... F or not F? I played 11 hours yesterday
14:38<V453000>Wolf01: then to F
14:39<andythenorth>V453000: I was recommended against changing it to git
14:39<andythenorth>no support
14:40<andythenorth>last time I asked
14:40<V453000>k :) I already chose mercurial
14:40<V453000>so http://hg.openttdcoop.org/part should now work?
14:41<V453000>or do I need someone to do the first poke?
14:42<andythenorth>I never figured it out
14:42<andythenorth>there's something has to be done to create repos
14:42<V453000>I always asked pm for it :) I will do the same
14:42<andythenorth>shall we move to github? o_O
14:46<frosch123>V453000: the trick is to not enable the repository in the same step as creating the project
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14:57<V453000>:D really?
15:00<frosch123>i deleted the repo
15:00<frosch123>now it should create a real one
15:00<frosch123>can take up to 7 minutes or so
15:01<V453000>alright :)
15:01<V453000>what do I do after? clone the empty repository with tortoise?
15:01<V453000>sorry I totally forgot, it's been years since I started a repo :D
15:01<frosch123>yes
15:02<V453000>great :)
15:09<frosch123>it's done
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15:52<V453000>I'm trying to push things but it said no outgoing changesets
15:52<V453000>I did commit a thing though
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15:55<frosch123>i guess tortoise can show some local history of the commits
15:56<frosch123>also, did you use the putty-key?
15:56<V453000>I'm using pageant, that should be from putty, yes
15:57<V453000>does ssh://hg@hg.openttdcoop.org/part look right?
15:57<frosch123>yes
15:57<V453000>as push thing
15:57<frosch123>well, then investigate the "what was committed" thing
15:58<frosch123>did you add files?
15:58<V453000>I added a shitload of files
15:58<V453000>it's even saying bundling in the start of pushing
15:59<V453000>I slightly recall I had this kind of problem earlier with RAWR or BRIX or something but I can't remember what exactly was it and how did I fix it
15:59<V453000>I tried to make another test commit and push
15:59<V453000>let's see
15:59<V453000>yeah and eventually No outgoing changesets to ssh://hg@hg.openttdcoop.org/part
16:00<frosch123>http://tortoisehg.readthedocs.io/en/latest/workbench.html# <- does that show your commits?
16:00<V453000>yea
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16:56<frosch123>bah, i get wot commericals
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17:09<Wolf01>'night
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17:10<andythenorth>bye
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21:08<ST2>l@ogs
21:08<ST2>3lfmnwekjafvhsdklx,
21:08<ST2>@logs
21:08<@DorpsGek>ST2: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 19 00:00:11 2017