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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-12-21

---Logopened Thu Dec 21 00:00:14 2017
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03:28<@Alberth>o/
03:29<andythenorth>hi
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04:45<m3henry>G'day
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05:24<@Alberth>o/
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05:26<crem>\o
05:28<@Alberth>hi hi
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05:46<m3henry>'lo
05:54<m3henry>Alberth: I hear the project is looking to be more C++11 oriented and I have some time off work over Christmas to spend on it.
05:56<LordAro>m3henry: it's marginally moot until the compile farm runs a newer compiler
05:56<LordAro>be nice to have a few things ready though
05:57<m3henry>What would be prioritized?
05:57<LordAro>entirely personally, i'd like to see a lot of the manual memory management go away
05:57<m3henry>Here here
05:58<@Alberth>refactoring for the purpose of refactoring isn't done much
05:58<m3henry>I've been replacing instances of MallocT with std::vector
05:58<LordAro>there's a reference counted pointer class somewhere
05:58<@Alberth>mostly it gets done as part of changing or extending functionality
06:00<m3henry>I was thinking of making SmallVector's API STL-compliant so that it could be used in templates like other containers
06:01<@Alberth>main feature of smallvector is its emplace functionality
06:02<@Alberth>in general std:: stuff is prefered rather than our own stuff, but no idea what the current compiler can or cannot handle
06:02<m3henry>What are the toolchains used?
06:04<@Alberth>I use g++ at linux, but the program supports lots of platforms
06:04<@Alberth>no idea what they use
06:04<m3henry>I'm surprised it's not written down somewhere
06:05<@Alberth>oh, it might exist, I just don't know
06:05<@Alberth>at least the compile farm knows :p
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06:05<m3henry>Reminds me of my workplace xD
06:06<@Alberth>well, and this place is not even a paid job :p
06:06<m3henry>Just labour of love
06:09<__ln__>C++11-orientedness would be quite a leap as the code even avoids most of C++98 in its current state.
06:10<@Alberth>it's not moving that fast, and refactoring for refactoring only isn't done mostly
06:11<m3henry>However, refactoring code that's used in other areas can lower the total cost of ownership
06:11<@Alberth>sure
06:12<@Alberth>but some parts are hairy and/or time-critical
06:13<@Alberth>but hardly any work is done in the program at all, currently
06:14<m3henry>Is that due to completeness, or lack of developers' time?
06:14<@Alberth>lack of active developers, mostly
06:14<@Alberth>many have moved on as their life changed
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06:15<@Alberth>I am still around, but have other interests as well
06:15<__ln__>developers haven't been rewarded with enough cake
06:15<__ln__>frequently enough
06:16<@Alberth>and completeness.... it depends on how you play the game. Some areas could use a lot of love, but none of the developers is really interested in that play style
06:16<m3henry>Seeing as I gained much entertainment value out of borth OpenTTD and TTDPatch when I was young, I feel like giving my time back, now that I am able to
06:16<m3henry>What play-style would that be?
06:17<@Alberth>oh, loads
06:17<@Alberth>some people want to have a realistic simulator
06:18<@Alberth>some want to play model trains
06:18<@Alberth>some want to make nice scenes (see the screenshot forum)
06:19<m3henry>model trains is covered nicely by the base game + basecost GRF, is it not?
06:19<@Alberth>no
06:19<@Alberth>no precise control over how trains run
06:19<m3henry>ah
06:19<@Alberth>not 1354 types of tracks
06:19<@Alberth>no shunting
06:20<@Alberth>strange magic turn around at a station
06:20<@Alberth>no subways
06:20<m3henry>I see
06:20<@Alberth>no signals on bridges / in tunnels
06:20<@Alberth>read some forum :p
06:20<m3henry>lol
06:21<@Alberth>oh, some want to have a big competition under hard circumstances
06:21<andythenorth>the game is nearly complete tbh
06:21<@Alberth>with economic realism
06:21<@Alberth>shares
06:21<andythenorth>the big worries are 'will it keep working'
06:21<@Alberth>buy out
06:21<m3henry>RailRoad Tycoon O
06:21<andythenorth>I would settle for performance that didn't degrade as hardware improves
06:22<@Alberth>^ big problem too
06:22<andythenorth>OpenTTD has been getting consistently lower performance for the last 5 years for me
06:22<@Alberth>eventually our way of rendering the screen will fail
06:22<andythenorth>it's hard to improve though eh :)
06:22<m3henry>Has anyone done code coverage analysis?
06:23<andythenorth>have we got any tests? o_O
06:23<@Alberth>we do :p
06:23<andythenorth>do we? :P
06:23<@Alberth>noai regression test somewhere
06:23<LordAro>i mean, i guess the AI regression stuff coutns
06:24<andythenorth>I wonder if a partial rewrite is likely to get more attention than some other stuff
06:24<andythenorth>seems hard-but-completable problems attract most interest
06:24<andythenorth>trivial problems seem to bore people
06:24<andythenorth>and some problems are just a tarpit of wishes
06:24<m3henry>Sounds like the sales team at work
06:24<m3henry>always selling the latter
06:25<andythenorth>our sales team is in forums
06:25<andythenorth>advocating for features
06:25<@Alberth>problem is that all customers express their wishes, assuming they play the game in the same way as everybody else :p
06:26<@Alberth>and assuming dev area of interest is aligned with teirs
06:26<@Alberth>*theirs
06:26<andythenorth>one day I might try and fix station UI :P
06:26<andythenorth>because that aligns with my interest
06:26<LordAro>mm, compile farm doesn't publicly state compiler versions
06:26<LordAro>iirc it's gcc4.x tho
06:26<LordAro>and older for macosx
06:27<@Alberth>I am not worried about gcc :p
06:28<@Alberth>scenarios is also very much neglected
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06:44<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=scenario
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06:53<@Alberth>m3henry: so don't worry too much about what others want, do what you like to do :)
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07:00<m3henry>Fair enough, though it must satisfy the gatekeepers of the repo to be accepted
07:01<andythenorth>it must
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07:04<m3henry>I suppose I should start by tackling some more flyspray issues
07:06<andythenorth>there are plenty :D
07:06<andythenorth>I deleted about 500 though
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07:49<@Alberth>in context of a house newgrf, any idea what "795+palette_offset" aims to do as value for a palette entry in a spritelayout/ground feature? https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pnq5ainvb
07:49<@Alberth>and how to express that in nml is likely something zeph likes to know :)
07:55<andythenorth>it's a palette shift :P
07:55<andythenorth>but why / how, dunnop
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08:06<@Alberth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:List_of_default_colour_translation_palettes maybe a palette selection?
08:06<@Alberth>795 is PALETTE_STRUCT_BLUE
08:08<andythenorth>plausible
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10:39<Samu>hi
10:39<Samu>admining a server sucks :(
10:40<Samu>st2 do u have admin tips? :p
10:40<Samu>someone left because I started all vehicles that he stopped
10:40<ST2>yeah: create a set of rules -> enforce them! easy peasy :P
10:41<Samu>i also was against station spread, he had one occurrence
10:41<Alkel_U3>I suggest not letting people on the server - people are likely the source of the problem :P
10:42<ST2>Alkel_U3 told the most efficient way xD
10:42<Samu>I usually let them servers run unmoderated for hours
10:42<Samu>there was no complains during that period
10:42<Samu>now that I stepped in
10:42<Samu>bah... it sucks
10:43<ST2>Samu: basically players only need to respect this ones: https://wiki.openttd.org/Multiplayer_Rules
10:43<ST2>unless you set different ones, but players must be able to check them
10:44<Samu>Don't cheat to advance yourself within the game. Joining a company operated by someone else
10:44<Samu>well I joined his company, he probably got mad cus of that?
10:44<Samu>i went there to fix the station spread
10:47<Samu>i got a feeling he didn't like my fix
10:48<ST2>easiest way: make a client with many function related to admining commands, like this https://www.dropbox.com/s/vdh84zb0wuk9fg0/Screenshot%202017-12-21%2015.47.27.png?dl=0
10:48<ST2>make things even faster that grabbing a beer :P
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10:54<@Alberth>Samu: would you like it if someone else took over your game, and played with it
10:54<@Alberth>?
10:54<Samu>not really
10:55<Samu>Mogul AI isn't helping to comply the rules though
10:55<Samu>he makes distant join stations :(
10:55<@Alberth>You're the admin, you decide what to run
10:56<Samu>Alberth: how do i join an AI company in multiplayer?
10:56<@Alberth>but in general, don't invade stuff done by people unless they give permission to do so
10:56<@Alberth>no idea, I never play with AIs
10:56<Samu>he's "abusing" roads near some industries, lol, wanna clear that
10:57<@Alberth>fix its code is most effective
10:57<@Alberth>but what you see as "fix" may not be seen that way by others
10:58<ST2>Samu: https://wiki.openttd.org/Console_Commands
10:58<ST2>the move <client-id> <company-id>
10:58<ST2>must do the job
10:59<Samu>Error: you cannot move clients to AI companies :(
11:00<Samu>https://imgur.com/H9IOVeX
11:00<Samu>mogul ai breaking the rules
11:00<Samu>lel
11:01<Samu>the ai relies on distant join
11:01<Alkel_U3>kick it then?
11:01<Samu>if distant join is disabled, he makes those little pieces of roads
11:01<Samu>almost looks like blocking
11:09<Samu>cargodist still confuses me
11:10<Samu>how many stations can a passenger visit before it reaches its final destination?
11:10<Samu>how deep is it
11:11<ST2>Final Destination has some movies so, it can take a while :D
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12:15<Samu>ppl still don't set autorenew
12:15<Samu>what if you turned it on by default?
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12:29<@Alberth>money magically disappears
12:29<@Alberth>or trains complain about lack of depots
12:30<@Alberth>most people don't have break-down, and no servicing
12:30<@Alberth>ie age of vehicles is a non-issue
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12:34<Borg>huh?
12:34<Borg>I play w/ autorenew.. no issues
12:34<Borg>but.. w/ servicing
12:34<Borg>w/o servicing autorenew simple dont kick in
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13:01<Samu>some players are just plain retards :(
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13:42<frosch123>moo
13:43<LordAro>oom
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27946 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2017-12-21 19:45:38 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish (mexican): 1 change by Absay
13:48<frosch123>yesterday kallithea leaked 40 mb, today 130 mb
14:01<andythenorth>hi
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16:05<andythenorth>solstice?
16:10<frosch123>hard to tell, can't see it
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16:38<andythenorth>too dark?
16:39<stefino>hi, can someone explain this? https://postimg.org/image/4kkzne0v9/
16:40<stefino>there are rails - tram is going throw but there is no graphics - only road o.o
16:43<stefino>the same situation is in other direction. it is simple replace code, sprites looks OK, basic full sprite and upper layer where the road is cutted off
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>stefino: try the sprite picker tool, to see whether the rails are there, but simply being overwritten by another sprite
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16:49<stefino>Eddi|zuHause: tram rails sprite is there but not displayed
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17:43<FLHerne>Samu: AAUI: cargodist can create routes with an unlimited number of hops; the amount of cargo sent between two points is related to the geographical distance rather than the route complexity
17:44<FLHerne>Samu: But: individual cargo packets don't have a complete route, or even a destination, at all
17:47<FLHerne>They only care about the next hop, and CDist does statistical magic to make it look as though those individual hops are part of a route
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---Logclosed Fri Dec 22 00:00:16 2017