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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-12-26

---Logopened Tue Dec 26 00:00:21 2017
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03:19<andythenorth>o/
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05:45<Wolf01>o/
05:46<Wolf01>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1200309#p1200309 ooooh wtf, they hijacket the NRT thread again :(
05:46<Wolf01>*hijacked
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>get a moderator to split it off?
05:48<Wolf01>Nah, they are trying to cram into NRT something which doesn't belong to it
06:02<andythenorth>[shrug]
06:02<andythenorth>forums are gonna forum
06:03<RafiX>hello
06:04<andythenorth>hi RafiX
06:04<RafiX>how are you?
06:05<Wolf01>Ok, I lost my challenge even today... I already started F
06:05<andythenorth>I haven't played tanks for a couple of days
06:05<andythenorth>I got to 'above average' and got bored https://www.blitzstars.com/player/eu/northbynorthwest
06:05<Wolf01>I played like 17 hours in 2 days
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think i win that F challenge
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06:32<andythenorth>Makefiles or Tanks?
06:33<Wolf01>Lego
06:33<andythenorth>done Lego
06:33<andythenorth>built the tow truck
06:34<Wolf01>Modify it
06:34<andythenorth>it has. a wolf on it
06:34<andythenorth>the rest is meh
06:34<Wolf01>I'll put tracks in place of the rear wheels
06:34<andythenorth>I might scrap it
06:34<andythenorth>and use the wheels to rebuild this http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=310890
06:38<Wolf01>I'll make it like the one of the rescuers: http://it.disney.wikia.com/wiki/File:Bushwacker.png
06:38<Wolf01>The fastrac is nice too, I wanted to use the second claas to build one
06:43<andythenorth>that Bushwacker basically is the tow truck eh
06:43<Wolf01>Yes
06:44<Wolf01>Ha! Being lazy unlocked another achievemente in F
06:49<andythenorth>such Makefiles
06:49<andythenorth>I have to maintain 4, all subtly different :P
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07:30<Wolf01>Make a python script which creates the makefiles
07:32<andythenorth>that is a good idea
07:32<andythenorth>actually
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08:32<Gja>hi
08:33<andythenorth>ach
08:33<andythenorth>branched newgrfs :(
08:34<andythenorth>I've got a branched Road Hog with NRT support
08:34<andythenorth>and of course, other changes that should be in default :x
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08:53<Eddi|zuHause>well, put them in default then
08:55<andythenorth>that means I have to learn mercurial properly
08:55<andythenorth>can't just cherrypick them in :P
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>tortoisehg has a "transplant" feature, where you can pick revisions of one branch and put them in another
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure that command line has that as well
08:56<andythenorth>seems hg 'graft' is a more modern version of transplant
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08:57<andythenorth>might be easier to just merge branches
08:57<andythenorth>then delete the NRT stuff from Hog
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>or merge NRT into trunk, and then put the NRT stuff in default?
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08:59<andythenorth>NRT is dead
09:00<andythenorth>I'm trying to diff branches to find out what I need to remove
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09:28<LordAro>put it in trunk, and decide at 1.8 branch point if it's stable enough to keep?
09:32<andythenorth>no gain really
09:32<andythenorth>:)
09:34<@Rubidium>shouldn't it then be merged before the christmas eve beta release?
09:35<frosch123>the issues with it are known for 10 months
09:36<frosch123>just use unofficial versions if you want something which is 75% unused, and 25% exploited to do stuff which was not considered
09:42<andythenorth>there is an NRT binary which is so close to 'official' that it's semantics to say it's not :P
09:42<andythenorth>I see no gain in shipping a feature in trunk nightlies which will have to be deleted later
09:47<LordAro>it'll get used and bugs/deficiencies will be found?
09:48<frosch123>they are already found
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>so start from scratch or what is the plan?
09:52<frosch123>yes
09:52<andythenorth>that wasn't XOR
09:52<frosch123>well, my plan
09:52<frosch123>don't know other plans
09:53<andythenorth>I have no plans :)
09:53<frosch123>from my pov the spec is broken, so i wrote a new one
09:53<andythenorth>BGT opens up a whole interesting can of worms
09:53<andythenorth>in a good way
09:53<andythenorth>but I'm scared of the UI part. :P
09:53<andythenorth>it might suck
09:55<andythenorth>hmm
09:55<andythenorth>commented 2 sections of NRT Hog
09:55<andythenorth>seems to work
10:00<andythenorth>slow jenkins is slow
10:01<frosch123>is it?
10:01<andythenorth>seems to be
10:01<andythenorth>or it stopped updating the progress gif
10:01<andythenorth>yeah
10:02<andythenorth>ok so I've placated angry Jenkins now :)
10:03<andythenorth>usual amount of yak shaving :D
10:03<frosch123>learn knitting?
10:04<frosch123>hmm, i guess spinning comes first
10:06<andythenorth>I think I'll update Sam instead ;)
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10:06<andythenorth>while it's in my head
10:07<andythenorth>so the vehicle part of NRT still looks fine to me :P
10:07<andythenorth>it's the tile part that was a mess IMHO
10:12<andythenorth>frosch123: I have a 33% sensible idea around 'tile types'
10:12<andythenorth>applicable to routes, stations, objects
10:12<frosch123>write it down :)
10:14<andythenorth>I did
10:14<andythenorth>as much as it's complete :P
10:14<andythenorth>I'll try a longer version
10:14<andythenorth>not sure what problem it's solving yet
10:14<andythenorth>I think it's just BGT again
10:25<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p1ni3waxk
10:25<andythenorth>it's not a cohesive idea yet
10:26<andythenorth>idea is that player can change 'surface' on any relevant tile they own, without having to rebuild routes, objects etc on that tile
10:30<andythenorth>most of new stations then disappears
10:30<andythenorth>and most of NRT
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10:31<andythenorth>old new stations would have to die
10:31<andythenorth>but the spec is weird anyway
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10:32<Borg>hmm playing w/ stockpiling industries. is so much fun :)
10:34<andythenorth>frosch123: ^^^^ stuff
10:39<frosch123>sounds about right
10:44<andythenorth>the initial mockup UI in BGT seems weird to me
10:45<andythenorth>I want to be able to pick any tile I own and change the ground
10:45<andythenorth> 'want' is a strong word there, it's not much needed
10:45<andythenorth>but as a solution to most of stations and roads :P
10:45<andythenorth>it's not bad
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11:09<@Rubidium>isn't it just better to use p1sim?
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11:26<frosch123>Rubidium: V was too busy to attend the machinsky talk
11:26<frosch123>so, we have no intelligence report on that
11:31<andythenorth>how do I get a grfid for incompatible checks?
11:31<andythenorth>bananas reports 52530101
11:32<andythenorth>also 4D635069
11:32<frosch123>"also"?
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11:32<frosch123>i think ottd also displays it in-game
11:38<andythenorth>2 different grfs :)
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11:43<andythenorth>the in-game version matches the bananas version
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11:43<andythenorth>oh looks like I got bored of this and fixed it in FIRS
11:43<andythenorth>seems I can use literal or dword
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11:59<andythenorth>ho ho ho
11:59<andythenorth>so FIRS 3 beta is done
11:59<andythenorth>only thing left to do is finish this 'get started' page http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/get_started.html
11:59<andythenorth>and wait for bug reports
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12:05<frosch123>i thought the page was already reworked
12:05<frosch123>what's left?
12:05<andythenorth>"ECONOMIES WORK IN ALL CLIMATES - HOW TO EXPLAIN?"
12:05<andythenorth>"This is to avoid conflicts that can cause FIRS to NOT WORK RIGHT. You'll see a message if this happens."
12:05<andythenorth>also someone new here reported that the page was totally confusing
12:06<andythenorth>but I didn't write down what they said :P
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12:12<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> "This is to avoid conflicts that can cause FIRS to NOT WORK RIGHT. You'll see a message if this happens." <-- this is totally useless information to anyone that is not a developer
12:13<andythenorth>yes
12:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: better? http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/get_started.html#conflicts
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>a bit
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12:29<Samu>Improved Oil Rig Layout \52\53\01\01
12:29<Samu>conflicts with my newgrf :)
12:30<Samu>I made it into a list!
12:31<andythenorth>fame
12:31<andythenorth>ok maybe this page is done for now
12:31<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/get_started.html
12:31<andythenorth>I'm not really happy with it
12:33<andythenorth>not convinced Apple are doing much better these days https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT205749
12:33<frosch123>add a "if you do not know which vehicle sets to use, use steel pony, squid and street boar"
12:33<frosch123>newbies like to get vendor locked
12:34<Samu>how's that it conflicts? i only added water checks to oil rigs :(
12:34<Samu>meh, newgrfs...
12:35<andythenorth>Samu: dunno, but it was likely reported in forum
12:36<@Rubidium>Samu: think what happens when I'd be able to call myself Samu on this IRC channel while you're connected as well
12:36<Samu>what?
12:37<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1167875#p1167875
12:37<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1167802#p1167802
12:38<andythenorth>I don't test what's incompatible, I just add the check and test that FIRS disables itself :)
12:38<@Rubidium>or am I, as usually, missing some external reference somewhere? I'm only assuming that Improved Oil Rig Layout conflicts with your NewGRF because it has the same GRFID as your NewGRF
12:39<andythenorth>Rubidium: there is a bit of missing context :)
12:39<andythenorth>samu made IORL
12:39<andythenorth>and it's incompatible with FIRS
12:40<Samu>wasn't it OIL_
12:40<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/puowthf5w
12:41<Samu>there's the newgrf
12:42<Samu>i dont have anything refering IORL at all, not even OIL_
12:42<andythenorth>Improved Oil Rig Layout
12:42<andythenorth>IORL
12:42<Samu>IORL is bauxite?
12:43<Samu>oh, nvm
12:43<andythenorth>IIAA
12:43<andythenorth>IORL Is An Acronym
12:43<andythenorth>:P
12:43<Samu>why does my oil rig produce bauxite? :(
12:44<Samu>ppl always find ways to break stuff
12:44<andythenorth>it relies on cargo having a specific ID
12:44<andythenorth>instead of using the cargo label
12:44<andythenorth>FIRS bauxite uses the ID you're expecting oil to have
12:45<andythenorth>at least in that economy :P
12:47<andythenorth>frosch123: do I explicitly allow a translator into eints via redmine?
12:47<andythenorth>or is there magix?
12:47<andythenorth>I assume I just add them to relevant group
12:47<frosch123>groups are handled globally
12:47<frosch123>not per project
12:47<frosch123>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home <- give them that link
12:48<andythenorth>I was going to add them in the user admin
12:48<frosch123>well, yes, click the user, add them to the group
12:48<frosch123>that's all
12:49<andythenorth>I am reading eints manual currently
12:50<frosch123>it has nothing to do with eints
12:51<andythenorth>is it documented anywhere?
12:51<frosch123>1. click user, 2. select groups tab, 3 click group checkbox 4. click apply
12:52<frosch123>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/ManagingEints <- there is that general page
12:52<andythenorth>that will do
12:52<andythenorth>I know how to do it in redmine, I just wasn't sure what's right :P
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27951 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2017-12-26 19:45:39 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish (mexican): 6 changes by Absay
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14:16<andythenorth>frosch123: so my idea looks like it overlaps with Groundtype in https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/ButGroundTypes#Groundtype
14:16<andythenorth>except I made it more generalised
14:16<andythenorth>dunno if I'm being stupid
14:17<frosch123>yes, there are like 3 things: tiles with infrastructure (stations, road, rail), tiles with cargo piles (stations) and non-gameplay stuff (objects)
14:18<frosch123>currently some things are provided by newobjects, newstations, nrt and bgt
14:18<frosch123>but there is no 1:1 mapping between them
14:18<frosch123>possibly there is a 4th type: non-player constructed, like landscape
14:19<frosch123>like the ridiculous amount of landscape textures f gained meanwhile
14:19<frosch123>there used to be "just grass"
14:21<andythenorth>I left industries out, because that's mostly solved
14:21<andythenorth>I think the interesting thing is to separate ground from structures
14:21<andythenorth>'structures' includes buildings, routes, cargo
14:22<andythenorth>still not sure exactly what problem is solved, but it seems interesting
14:28<frosch123>i think it's about visual consistency
14:28<frosch123>you want stations and roads and industries to fit
14:28<frosch123>like chips roads
14:29<andythenorth>newgrfs suggest so :)
14:29<andythenorth>dunno about registering tiles into a global pool though
14:29<andythenorth>which is one of my ideas
14:29<andythenorth>cross-grf resources :P
14:49<andythenorth>really? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6646
14:49<andythenorth>can't repro
15:13<LordAro>probably out of catchment
15:13<LordAro>ask for screenshots
15:14<frosch123>or savegame
15:14<frosch123>but probably just link the manual and close
15:15<andythenorth>probably covers some, but not enough houses
15:15<andythenorth>so no acceptance
15:15<andythenorth>so cargodist won't establish an A-B link
15:15<andythenorth>I can repro that
15:18<andythenorth>closed
15:19<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6645 <- ignore them?
15:21<LordAro>"just don't do the subsidy then"
15:23<andythenorth>suggested GS
15:23<andythenorth>I didn't get the count below 300 :P
15:43<andythenorth>frosch123: is there enough map to store some index into groundtypes? o_O
15:43<frosch123>if it is useful, there is always enough map
15:44<andythenorth>maybe I should survey station and object sets
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15:44<andythenorth>quite possibly I am only considering my case with FIRS / CHIPS etc
15:45<frosch123>"not enough map" is just an easy excuse to deny teenager's "i want everything" request
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15:46<andythenorth>:)
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>memory is (nearly) infinite, but not when you treat it that way
15:51<frosch123>compare 9mb of a 1kx1k map with 2gb of sprite cache
15:51<Thedarkb>As someone with a 256mb machine.......
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15:52<andythenorth>not sure where groundtypes would originate
15:52<andythenorth>some new grf class?
15:52<frosch123>when talking about map sizes you are at best talking about cache optimisation
15:52<frosch123>and afaik noone ever optimised ottd on that level
15:53<frosch123>except for map alignment
15:53<andythenorth>TerrainTypes :P
15:54<andythenorth>I have often wanted to change ground type in CHIPS recently
15:54<andythenorth>the building tiles have a fixed style of ground sprite
15:55<andythenorth>and duplicating them just for ground is overkill
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15:57<andythenorth>CHIPS New Objects duplicates a lot for groundtype :P
15:57<andythenorth>I didn't make that :)
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17:34<Wolf01>'night
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20:33<sim-al2>Ok compiling with VS2017 here, I'm now getting C1083 Cannot open include file 'stdint.h'
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20:40<LordAro>sim-al2: stdint.h is an exceptionally common standard header file, it'll be an issue with your set up
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20:44<sim-al2>yeah fixed it
20:44<sim-al2>not sure why that happened
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21:34<sim-al2>ok I'm doing what the wiki page says exactly, added the library path and include path, compile solution, but it just throws the same stdint.h error
21:35<sim-al2>I literally don't understand why, it's even referenced for strgen and settingsgen
21:36<sim-al2>there's most certainly a stdint.h in VS's own files too
21:39<sim-al2>this wiki page to be exact: https://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_Windows_using_Microsoft_Visual_C%2B%2B_2015
21:40<sim-al2>I did select openttd_vs141.sln also, but I don't think that's the problem
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21:43<sim-al2>@logs
21:43<@DorpsGek>sim-al2: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
21:44<sim-al2>I don't suppose there's a seach function for the logs...
22:07<+glx>maybe you can try to create a generic win32 project and see if it builds, just to check your VS is working
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22:22<sim-al2>it seems fine with compling hello world
22:22<sim-al2>and including stdint.h with it...
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22:52<sim-al2>ok nevermind I'm going to plan B
22:52<sim-al2>Linux VM
22:52<sim-al2>it's a bit amazing that Microsoft's own code tools don't work
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---Logclosed Wed Dec 27 00:00:13 2017