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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-01-06

---Logopened Sat Jan 06 00:00:37 2018
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02:35<andythenorth>o/
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03:21<andythenorth>@seen snail
03:21<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: snail was last seen in #openttd 7 weeks, 5 days, 10 hours, 50 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Snail> question for you… did you decide whether your vehicles will be deliverable to cities?
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03:24<Wolf01>o/
03:25<andythenorth>ho Wolf01
03:27<Wolf01>Mmmh power went off this morning and my ups used up to 50% in 1 minute without anything attached (or powered)... time to change the battery
03:32<Wolf01>Mmm there's a new fork of NRT
03:35<Wolf01>andythenorth: did you already synced master with trunk?
03:35<andythenorth>no
03:35<andythenorth>I tried locally
03:36<andythenorth>but merge conflicts
03:36<andythenorth>where's the new fork?
03:36<Wolf01>Master should be just a copy of trunk, since the changes are in ratt
03:36<andythenorth>good point
03:36<Wolf01>sstabeler/NotRoadTypes
03:37<andythenorth>ok I pushed master synced
03:42<Wolf01>Oh, the conflicts are just plain stupid
03:44<andythenorth>just changelog
03:44<andythenorth>but I don't know the rules, so I didn't touch
03:45<Wolf01>Yes, it changed from 1.7.0 to 1.7.2 - 1.7.2, that's all
03:45<Wolf01>*1.7.0 - 1.7.2
03:46<Wolf01>Pushing
03:49<Wolf01>Lets see how much it takes to push...
03:52<Wolf01>Done
03:53<andythenorth>git it
03:53<andythenorth>*got it
03:53<Wolf01>Git got it :P
04:01<Wolf01>Considering to move the electrification bit on the tile and check it against vehicle typeinfo bit, your original idea
04:01<Wolf01>Graphics aren't a problem, road takes precedence
04:02<Wolf01>Mixing catenaries might be resolved later grf side
04:03<Wolf01>No more confusion on "is this tile electrified?"
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04:19<Flygon>@seen Flygon
04:19<@DorpsGek>Flygon: Flygon was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 18 hours, 27 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <Flygon> (I would've preferred the other version of the scene where she laughs for the first time. But, alas, they didn't film it. They went with the Copulation Scene instead. @_@)
04:19<Flygon>...
04:19<Flygon>I'm not sure what I expected but I didn't expect that quote.
04:19<Borg>;)
04:19<Wolf01>WB Flygon
04:20<Flygon>Eyyy. :3
04:21<andythenorth>Wolf01: try it
04:21<andythenorth>there are so many ideas about catenary :P
04:24<Wolf01>Ok, HasPowerOnRoad shouldn't change at all, The only think I should change is when I draw the catenary
04:24<Wolf01>*thing
04:26<Wolf01>Mmmh no, the change should be both on the HasPowerOnRoad and grf side
04:27<Wolf01>EL* should be able to run on normal IF the tile has catenary
04:29<Wolf01>So you have to define both RAIL->ELRL and ELRL->RAIL+CATENARY, now is only RAIL-ELRL
04:30<Wolf01>In this case ELRL should just be a logic type, not a buildable type
04:31<Wolf01>What do you think andythenorth?
04:31<Wolf01>It could be a buildable type which just builds RAIL and sets the catenary bit
04:32<Wolf01>But on the vehicle sets a flag to check if there is the catenary
04:43<andythenorth>it boggles my brain TBH :)
04:43<andythenorth>frosch has a solution, but it's not at first simple https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/ButGroundTypes#Catenary
04:43<andythenorth>might be simpler overall though
04:45<Wolf01>I would just remove ELRD and ELRL from the existence, they are ROAD and RAIL + catenary which is on the tile (and later on groundtype if frosch wants to add it)
04:45<andythenorth>if were starting from day 0
04:45<andythenorth>I would separate powertype
04:46<andythenorth>so there is a tool to add catenary/third rail etc
04:46<andythenorth>but eh
04:46<Wolf01>That's what I'm doing
04:47<Wolf01>Now just catenary, and grf continues to define the graphic
04:48<andythenorth>what does Eddi|zuHause think? o_O
04:49<Wolf01>"catenary" is a bit, so if you add a third rail to a normal road, you will get road catenary + third rail, and both trolleybus+third rail can travel there
04:50<Wolf01>Later we might change it by moving the bit on thegroundtype and ask it for what is going on there
04:52<Wolf01>But it might still be there a problem where you may think that a ELRL can travel on 3RL since there is the catenary... well... yes, there is the catenary
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04:55<Wolf01>3RL > (ELRL) > RAIL
04:57<Wolf01>ELRL can travel on 3RL but not vice versa, since ELRL just checks for rails and catenary but 3RL has another compatibility check (powered_roadtypes)
04:58<Wolf01>This mean you can't have a 3RL without catenary, which is weird
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05:01<Wolf01>Or better, since 3RL just defines the rail graphics (to show the third rail), if you build it you will get ELRL trams running over it without catenary shown, which is weird enough to make me rethink of this whole thing
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05:12<andythenorth>I have chores to do, but BIAB
05:12<andythenorth>I think frosch has a point about force-upgrading road/tramtype to electrified version
05:12<andythenorth>if both are present on a tile, and one is electrified, the other is forced to a new label too
05:13<andythenorth>it seems iniitally very complex, but overall might be cleanest solution
05:13<andythenorth>label rules all
05:13<andythenorth>anyway BBL
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05:17<Samu>hi
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06:17<andythenorth>o/
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07:10<Borg>\o
07:10<Borg>*burp*
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07:13<andythenorth>Wolf01: so what UX problem are we solving with catenary? o_O
07:14<Wolf01>The problem was the one to tell which between road and tram had the catenary
07:14<Wolf01>Solution: one catenary for them all
07:14<andythenorth>so the UX problem is "my trams don't work" ?
07:15<Wolf01>Yes
07:15<Wolf01>I then moved the problem to ELRL vs 3RL
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07:23<andythenorth>and the other UX problem is "I can't electrify town roads" ?
07:23<Wolf01>Yes
07:24<andythenorth>and even if I could, how the hell does it work in MP?
07:24<Wolf01>You can electrify your roads and town roads
07:25<Wolf01>You can remove electrification from your roads but not from town roads
07:25<andythenorth>but if I electrify your town road?
07:25<andythenorth>or I change the electrification type on your town road?
07:25<Wolf01>You can only "upgrade" town roads
07:25<andythenorth>mess
07:25<andythenorth>:)
07:28<andythenorth>if we didn't piss about with 3rd rail, ropeway, induction-at-a-distance etc
07:28<andythenorth>then it would be easier
07:28<andythenorth>it was just 'catenary or not'
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07:41<Eddi|zuHause>what constitutes an "upgrade"?
07:42<@Rubidium>that's obvious... from smooth asphalt to cobble stones is an upgrade
07:45<Wolf01>Upgrade is something which add and not breaks compatibility
07:46<@Rubidium>so high speed rail is not an upgrade
07:46<Wolf01>It adds speed
07:47<@Rubidium>but usually removes tonnage, like in France
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>it might remove compatibility for slow trains
07:48<Wolf01>When OTTD will have those concepts then we'll decide
07:48<Flygon>Higher speed rail usually adds tonnage in AU. :V
07:48<Samu>syntrans is stuck trying to build a bridge over a rail :(
07:48<Flygon>Which may be more indicative about how poor our tracks are in the first place.
07:49<Flygon>(On the other hand, RFR track is built to such a high standard, I could reasonably expect a TGV or Shinkansen to go 250km/h through it without issue.)
07:49<@Rubidium>shinkansen might actually be problematic given their width
07:50<Flygon>Okay, strictly speaking about track _condition_. Not loading gauge. :D
07:52<Wolf01>I think V left F open all the night, maybe he collapsed playing
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that how you're meant to play F?
07:54<Wolf01>Eh, but like that he builds up playtime, it's not fair :D
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08:01<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/ButGroundTypes
08:03<LordAro>andythenorth: irssi is rendering that link as bold, somehow
08:03<andythenorth>I formatted it as bold, somehow :P
08:03<Samu>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=57136&p=1200848#p1200848
08:05<Samu>[b]bold[/b]
08:05<Samu>:(
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08:50<andythenorth>quak
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08:56<@planetmaker>o/
08:57<@planetmaker>interesting proposal with the ButGroundTypes
08:58<andythenorth>interesting if extended to stations
09:01<frosch123>maybe road and tramtype should be dropped completely
09:02<frosch123>i seen nothing useful in vehicle compatibility
09:02<frosch123>incompatibility seems to be only used in realism bs, and what would realism bs do to roads?
09:03<frosch123>the railtype compatibility rules do not event work for highway
09:03<frosch123>for railtypes the better railtype always supports the previous ones
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09:03<frosch123>it would not disabllow a hews crawler to drive on a highway
09:04<frosch123>*heqs
09:09<@planetmaker>I think mostly RoadTypes is about having different choice of roads. At least to me, the impact on vehicles need not extend beyond a general speed limit
09:09<@planetmaker>and choice of roads as in only a visual thing, nothing else
09:09<frosch123>yep, also my thought, only visual, no compatibility stuff
09:09<@planetmaker>so... yeah, it's more a groundtype thing - though ground types looks to me like grass, desert, water,...
09:10<frosch123>yes, that's what andy mentioned
09:10<frosch123>merging newobjects and non-track stations, and merging rail and road underground
09:11<frosch123>but the borders between those two are not particulary sharp/clear
09:13<@planetmaker>well, stations... the only difference of an object and a non-track station is the catchment area
09:13<@planetmaker>from a player perspective
09:14<frosch123>yeah, and i never liked that they add to catchment :p
09:15<@planetmaker>:D Well, that's how station work... and if they don't, people would add track tiles there
09:15<@planetmaker>It's more a social thing that they allow to build HUGE stations - but you can limit station size already, so that's not a big thing, IMHO
09:16<frosch123>like f logistic bots :p
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09:19<@planetmaker>:D
09:23<V453000>yo
09:32<Wormnest>Looking at oil rigs it seems the dock location is always the norther most tile. I assume it´s an invisible 2 tile dock since ships always seem to stop south west of the oil rig
09:32<Wormnest>Is the dock layout for water industries always like that: from north to south west or is a dock pointing to the south east also possible
09:35<frosch123>the dock tile is always a plain water tile without industry graphics
09:35<frosch123>so industries like to hide it behind other tiles
09:35<frosch123>the position is arbitrary, but most industries will put it somehow centerish in the back, since that's best for visuals
09:36<frosch123>also, it's a single tile
09:36<frosch123>ships stop in front of it or so
09:37<Wormnest>Hm but with an oilrig I did BuildSign for the tile reported for the dock and it seemd to be the tile of the uppermost oil rig part
09:38<frosch123>the newgrf defines which tile becomes the station
09:38<Wormnest>However the ships seem to stop at the sourth west thus not a tile connected to the tile reported for the dock, or am i blind lol
09:38<andythenorth>frosch123: I'm pretty unconvinced by RoadTypes
09:39<andythenorth>on the +ve side, it is good to be able to force different kinds of roads
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09:41<frosch123>Wormnest: you are right, the ship heads to tile (2,0) relative to the station tile
09:42<andythenorth>something about compatibility is all wrong
09:42<andythenorth>even in railtypes :P
09:42<andythenorth>I figured it out once
09:42<frosch123>Wormnest: https://hg.openttd.org/trunk.hg/file/3fca793ae714/src/station_map.h#l447
09:43<Wormnest>Thanks frosch123 I´ll have a look
09:44<andythenorth>I only wanted 4 types :P
09:45<andythenorth>road, haul; tram, eltram
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09:51<Eddi|zuHause>that's your problem, you go into development of the general thing with a specific use case in mind
09:55<Wormnest>frosch123: Does that mean that other (newgrf) water industries can define their own offset?
09:58<frosch123>Wormnest: no, i just learned about this offset :p
09:58<frosch123>it means that the tile in x+2 from the station must be accessible and not covered by the industry
10:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: wrt, that's not the problem
10:01<Wormnest>Thanks that makes checking easier :)
10:01<andythenorth>presumably you have a general spec ready Eddi|zuHause ?
10:02<Borg>sooo.. no opinions? on my GRF?
10:03<Borg>http://ds-1.ovh.uu3.net/~borg/tmp/x2025_ind.png
10:04<andythenorth>sorry Borg, I have nothing :
10:04<andythenorth>:)
10:05<Borg>not good.. noooot good
10:05<Borg>;)
10:05<frosch123>Borg: noone who does stuff for ottd gets feedback :)
10:05<frosch123>andy and V mention that all the time
10:06<andythenorth>I released FIRS 3
10:06<andythenorth>crickets
10:06<andythenorth>Borg: what you need to do is make 200 jerk-off real world liveries on the same train
10:06<andythenorth>then you get much plaudits
10:06<andythenorth>doesn't even have to be good sprite
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10:09<Borg>uhm... whatever he had in mind...
10:11<Samu>7 AI's remaining for testing
10:13<Samu>wait a min, i missed one
10:13<Samu>so it's 8
10:14<Wormnest>You might need to do a retest of NoNoCAB if I can finish the changes this weekend (probably not) :p
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10:23<Samu>nice
10:37<Samu>I got some nice surprises this time around
10:37<Samu>rocketai didn't crash
10:37<Samu>played for 100 years, pathfinding forever
10:38<Samu>aiai played quite poor
10:38<Samu>roadai doesn't deal well with cargodist
10:39<Samu>always nearing bankrupting, but surviving
10:40<Samu>epictrans did actually play great
10:42<Samu>nonocab had a really bad start
10:42<Samu>i thought it would bankrupt, but turned it around
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10:53<Samu>some ais take too much time to actually build a route
10:53<Samu>it was part of the test though, but still...
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10:53<Samu>16 years, 20 years
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11:43<Wolf01>o/
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11:56<@Alberth>o/
11:58<supermop>yo
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12:30<andythenorth>Wolf01: did you solve it? o_O
12:30<Wolf01>Nope, I built 2 outposts on F
12:31<andythenorth>kind of wondering about just having a catenary tool
12:31<andythenorth>and be done with it
12:31<andythenorth>no type
12:31<andythenorth>just electrified bit
12:31<Wolf01>That should be easy
12:32<andythenorth>there is zero reward in doing anything else on NRT
12:32<andythenorth>too many people want too many different things
12:32<andythenorth>and the blocking problems are really uninteresting
12:39<supermop>:(
12:39<supermop>andythenorth I replied in your firs thread
12:41<andythenorth>I also ignore some industries in Extreme
12:41<andythenorth>it's also not very Extreme really
12:41<andythenorth>Steeltown is much more intense
12:42<supermop>I think being free to ignore some is probably a feature not a bug
12:42<supermop>Maybe there is scope for a 'developed world urban basic'
12:43<supermop>but steeltown seems a good balance
12:44<supermop>i'd be sad to lose the distinction between bus and rail wires in NRT, and the room for nuance in catenary graphics that comes with it, but if that's what it takes to ship i'll live with it
12:45<supermop>i wonder how best to make a cable car in that case
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12:51<supermop>kind of weird that scrap only goes to arc furnace
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13:01<supermop>also what is a limestone mine
13:02<+glx>I guess it's where you extract limestone :)
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13:06<andythenorth>yup
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27960 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2018-01-06 19:45:38 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish (mexican): 2 changes by Absay
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14:48<andythenorth>I should just draw ships eh
14:48<andythenorth>dunno, the NRT thing kind of kills my interest
14:51<Borg>andythenorth: just join our server and have some fun ;]
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16:25<Rybeast>Sorry to be a nuisance, but I was wondering if someone might be able to help? I've downloaded one of the NGRFs which contains British Rail skins, but now I've created a scenario, I seem to have lost the default coal wagons. The only trailers I have are passenger stock and nothing else - what have I done wrong?
16:26<Rybeast>I'd have posted on the Forums, but I can't remember my username, so can't use the reset option :/
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16:28<andythenorth>do you have the buy menu filter on for 'passengers' Rybeast ?
16:29<Rybeast>I've checked in the drop down lists to run through all of the options, iron ore, coal, mail etc. The only non-passenger cargo that works is the 'mail' as one of the Mk.1 carriages carries both people and mail
16:29<Borg>hmm guys
16:30<Borg>I got message to buy out human company... because it was going to bankrupt soon.. what would happen?
16:30<Borg>companies would be merged?
16:30<Borg>I hit no.. but I remember on AI games.. I took over company
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16:39<Rybeast>anyone else?
16:39<stefino>Hi...if I wanna to replace base graphics from "extra sprites" (rivers, trams etc.) ..I have to replace all graphics or can I raplace only some of this sprites? Cause in NML it write that I have to define all sprites. Thanks :)
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16:52<andythenorth>can replace only some
16:52<Rybeast>@andythenorth = did you get my reply?
16:55<stefino>andythenorth: can you tell me how please? :)
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16:57<stefino>ps What type are rivers in replacenew command?
16:58<@planetmaker>rivers... it's not like there's different types
16:59<@planetmaker>But you have to replace all sprites of a single set of sprites with a replacenew command, thus all river sprites
17:00<Rybeast>Is there anyone else online who is good with nGRF and not being able to find default wagons?
17:00<stefino>yes this was my question...if it is possible to replace only selected sprites ...
17:01<andythenorth>Rybeast: does the grf provide wagons?
17:02<Rybeast><andythenorth> erm... I don't know? Will I have to download more nGRF to replace the default ones that the other one has banished?
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly are you trying to do?
17:03<Rybeast>BR Trains, eVRTS are the nGRFs I've downloaded
17:03<stefino>have this https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pixrkzfjt and nml write that rivers is not valid replacenew type
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly are you trying to do?
17:04<andythenorth>Rybeast: dunno if BR Trains has wagons
17:05<andythenorth>it's not exactly finished
17:06<@planetmaker>stefino: with rivers that's not nicely feasible. https://kallithea.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/files/0f6c066f57c9b2d498de9c6339bb9a69c46207d5/sprites/extra/extra-plus-rivers.pnml
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>Rybeast: i think you should try a grf like OpenGFX+Trains
17:06<@planetmaker>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Replace_new_sprites <-- doesn't list 'RIVERS' as item for replacenew
17:06<@planetmaker>it's FEAT_CANALS
17:07<stefino>planetmaker: yes I know that there are no Rivers in the list but thought that it is not updated for example
17:07<Rybeast>Andy, Eddie - If I'm wanting to have better skins like the BR trains provides, what do I do?
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>how do you mean?
17:08<Rybeast>Well, the reason I downloaded that particular pack was because I wanted the skins it provided, but I obviously need the wagons and the like to actually do well... Is it possible to have the particular file I've got and retain the default wagons?
17:10<@planetmaker>Rybeast, if you only want a new locomotive engine: just add that, and don't bother with any wagons
17:10<andythenorth>Rybeast: you would need a new game
17:10<andythenorth>you can't safely add to current game
17:10<@planetmaker>default vehicles will be kept. But yeah... not in an existing game
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>stefino: replacenew is the nml equivalent of this: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action5
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>Rybeast: just start a new game with both BR Trains and OpenGFX+Trains. that should do what you need
17:11<stefino>oh my god :D but thanks :)
17:12<Rybeast>That;s fine, so just an additional download. Thank you
17:12<stefino>so in this code I can replace only selected sprites , is it true?
17:13<@planetmaker>what is 'this code'?
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17:13<stefino>your code what you sent few minutes ago
17:14<andythenorth>Rybeast: or use Iron Horse, it's brit-ish-ish
17:14<andythenorth>or UKRS 2
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>stefino: i think rivers work different than you expect them to. but i don't know how rivers work, so i can't help you
17:14<@planetmaker>of course you can replace single sprites. If you have all the other sprites. And if memory serves me well you might be able to pull this off only in a base set
17:16<Rybeast>so now, if I want to edit a scenario to incclude the new nGRF, can I do that? Or do I have to create another scenario again?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>No*
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>(*we don't talk about it)
17:17<stefino>planetmaker: I'm going to try it, thanks :)
17:18<Rybeast>ok. Thanks guys
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17:39<__ln__>have a cat video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdPBUYi7p5o
17:58<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 07 00:00:38 2018