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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-01-07

---Logopened Sun Jan 07 00:00:38 2018
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04:14<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
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04:54<Borg>aaaa help. I got problem w/ YAPF
04:55<Borg>why that bitch goes to red.. even when she have green signal on right
04:56<peter1138>So, er, which signal?
04:57<Wolf01>Use the 2 way signals to let trains make decisions with presignals
04:59<peter1138>Do you mean the presignal block leading to the two stopped trains? It's because the right lane has an extra signal at the end which increases the penalty.
04:59<Borg>peter1138: the upper train that goes down...
04:59<Borg>there are 2 exit signals and presignal
04:59<Borg>peter1138: yeah...
05:00<Borg>peter1138: but its green.. so no penalty
05:00<Borg>it is red ;D
05:00<Borg>lets count penalties
05:00<Borg>straigth patch: 500+400=900
05:00<peter1138>Green still has a penalty.
05:01<Borg>no its red.. 100% sure
05:01<peter1138>Yes because of the other route.
05:01<Borg>also... firstred counts too? then +1000
05:01<Borg>so.. straight patch should have 1900 at least
05:01<Borg>no.. lets count right lane...
05:01<Borg>(train perspective)
05:01<Borg>first is green..
05:01<Borg>so... 400+300 = 700
05:01<peter1138>Just use path signals everywhere and stop with the old school rubbish :p
05:02<Borg>so obvious path for me....
05:02<Borg>peter1138: pfft... I use PBS a lot :) but sometimes its suboptimal
05:02<Borg>I tried to red YAPF code.. but.. its damn complicated C++ stuff
05:02<Wolf01>PBS is suboptimal when you put 1 signal every 2 tiles
05:03<Borg>Wolf01: nah.. its slow sometimes.. and also not making right decisions in certain cases.. its ok.. thats why we have presignals
05:04<Borg>yapf.rail_firstred_penalty = 1000
05:04<Borg>yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals = 5
05:04<Borg>yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p0 = 500
05:04<Borg>yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p1 = -100
05:04<Borg>yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p2 = 0
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05:04<Borg>but with those settings.. it should go to the right lane dammit
05:04<Borg>first is green..
05:04<Wolf01>The entry presignal should be a DOUBLE WAY SIGNAL
05:05<Borg>Wolf01: only if you have twoway_eol=true
05:05<Borg>or.. twoway signals are calculated differently?
05:06<Wolf01>I think twoway_eol is for handling terminus stations
05:07<Wolf01>You don't have an eol there
05:07<Borg>I dont see any special stuff for twoway signals in YAPF
05:07<Borg>only twoway_eol and depots
05:07<Wolf01>Because it's from the core game, not YAPF
05:07<Wolf01>Two way = make decision
05:08<Borg>Wolf01: arent u confusing openttdcoop SRN ?
05:08<Wolf01>It was chosen a lot of time ago, in TTDP when presignals were added
05:08<Borg>okey.. lets switch them to two way
05:08<Borg>to see if u are right
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05:10<Borg>u are right...
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05:10<Borg>thats crap :(
05:11<Wolf01>Nah, that's just RTFM
05:11<Borg>oneway twoway should not make difference
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05:11<Borg>lets see if PBS will do better
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05:13<Wolf01>Just don't place PBS after junction, that's not a safe waiting point
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05:13<Borg>of course :)
05:13<Wolf01>Better safe than sorry
05:14<Borg>okey PBS will do better
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know why coop-people insist on twoway_eol, when firstred_exit is equally as powerful
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05:19<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: yeah.. I dont use twoway_eol...
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>well, i only use path signals anyway
05:20<Borg>I use path + block
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't build that kind of junction
05:20<Borg>and sometimes presignals where station have low traffic and I dont want to have loop on it
05:20<Borg>but I wonder if I should convert it to PBS
05:20<Wolf01>I only build plain junctions, flyovers only if the terrain forces me :P
05:21<Borg>Wolf01: well... I have high traffic on that lane
05:21<Borg>play junction would be suboptimal..
05:21<Borg>wanna see it? its on server....
05:21<Wolf01>I usually have 2-6 trains per line, so...
05:21<Borg>currently, Im scared to use PBS signals...
05:21<Borg>I use oneway PBS
05:21<Wolf01>And they usually wait at stations
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: PBS are totally easy: every place you would put an exit signal, you remove the signal, every entry signal becomes a one-way path signal
05:23<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: I know..
05:23<Borg>I use PBS a lot...
05:23<Borg>the only problem I have is PBS vs OneWay PBS :>
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>just make sure that every entry into the junction is through a path signal, never a block signal
05:23<Borg>my networks are mostly oneway...
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>you need twoway path signal only at terminus stations
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05:25<Borg>I miss more fine grained Signal Selection via CTRL
05:26<Borg>hmm lets see
05:26<Wolf01>There's a setting for that, you can decide which kind of signals to cycle
05:27<Borg>okey.. found acceptable setting..
05:27<Borg>build path.. cycle thro all
05:27<Borg>just to clicks.. if I will not use pre signals anymore
05:28<Borg>so :D redesign time...
05:28<Borg>pre signals are no more! ;)
05:28<Wolf01>Pre signals are still useful, but not as they were before PBS
05:28<Borg>extra setting would be cool tho
05:28<Borg>cycle via: block + path (no presignals)
05:29<Borg>yeah.. before PBS they were must :)
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>i had so many problems with presignals, because i always stumbled into the cases where they were not enough
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i don't use the ctrl-cycling, i use the signal gui to select the signal
05:31<Borg>its too slow.. for me
05:32<Borg>I prefer to click fast few times
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>and also i put path signals everywhere
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>no plain block signals
05:32<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: even on one way line ?
05:32<Borg>geez.. waste
05:32<Borg>I use PBS only on junctions
05:32<Borg>on lanes.. I put simple block one way signal
05:32<Borg>every 6 tiles
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>that just bites you in the ass if you add a junction to an existing line and forget to convert a signal
05:33<Borg>how u can forget to convert? :)
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>every mistake that can happen will happen
05:34<Borg>oh.. the only mistakes I made. when rebuilding busy intersection..
05:34<Borg>and sometimes I remove signal.. and BOOM
05:34<Borg>rary.. but happen
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i always build while paused. easier to catch these kinds of mistakes
05:35<Borg>I play multiplayer only
05:35<Borg>ok.. mostly :D
05:36<Borg>current setting is not optimal
05:36<Borg>too much clicking when building lane..
05:36<Borg>it needs extra setting
05:37<Borg>All, All but pre-signals, Path signals, block signals,
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>make a patch
05:37<Borg>yeah. I will..
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05:39<Borg>first I need to setup compilation platform.. wont be easy
05:41<Borg>I noticed that stations have signals...
05:41<Borg>at least it looks like
05:41<Wolf01>Sort of, but don't rely on it
05:42<Borg>well.. if they will work basicaly on station with reserving
05:42<Borg>reversing I mean
05:42<Borg>its fine.. I use them only on low traffic..
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05:42<Borg>then I dont need a patch :) because I will not use twoway PBS
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05:42<Wolf01>I make terminus stations without any signal if I lack of space
05:43<Borg>they behave a bit like PBS
05:43<Borg>or block?
05:43<Borg>dunno.. but it worked
05:43<Borg>I had 2 trains w/o signals in block
05:44<Borg>except entrance PBS
05:44<Borg>and they went in.. one went out
05:44<Borg>dammit! :) no need to PBS on them
05:44<Borg>thats great
05:44<Borg>im back to my old settings
05:44<Borg>place One way PBS, cycle thro block signals only
05:45<Borg>since I will use only one way PBS or one way block signals. not much clicking!
05:45<Borg>redesign time ;D
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>it's not the station that has a signal
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>it's that a reversing train has a signal
05:47<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: simple block signal?
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>no. if a train reverses, and there is a path signal nearby, it will try to reserve a path. if it cannot reserve the path, it will wait (instead of just going)
05:48<Borg>ahh.. ok
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07:11<Wolf01>Yay, mashinky got presignals
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07:29<_dp_>nice try mashinky
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07:50<Thedarkb-X40>Why does OpenTTD still depend on libicu52?
07:51<Wolf01>Because nobody still had time to get rid of it
07:52<Thedarkb-X40>I'll try building it from the source.
07:55<Thedarkb-X40>It's not finding a video driver.
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08:56<Samu>4 AI's remaining
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09:21<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27961 /trunk (bin/baseset/openttd.grf media/extra_grf/openttdgui.png) (2018-01-07 15:21:09 +0100 )
09:21<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6654]: The switch-toolbar icon contained pixels from the fire cycle. Replace the whole icon with a new version. (PaulC)
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09:57<nicfer>Is this channel open for newgrf questions?
09:58<frosch123>this channel is for everything
09:58<frosch123>including lego, factorio and other stuff
09:59<__ln__>also linear algebra, poetry, signal processing
10:15<nicfer>I'm trying to make a GRF that changes primary industries to increase production when supplied with cargo (passengers in my case)
10:16<frosch123>check out yeti, manpower industries and possibly firs
10:16<frosch123>they are all doing similar things
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11:05<andythenorth>what if it's the general case
11:05<andythenorth>that's wrong?
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11:06<andythenorth>Eddi argues that NRT failed because it doesn't consider the general case
11:07<andythenorth>but the general case can't be reconciled
11:17<andythenorth>catenary MUST be split road / tram
11:17<andythenorth>catenary MUST be unified road / tram
11:18<frosch123>catenary MUST be purely visual
11:18<andythenorth>player MUST be able to build over town road
11:18<andythenorth>player MUST NOT be able to build over town road
11:18<andythenorth>general case is nonsense
11:19<frosch123>since when are there players?
11:19<andythenorth>well AIs then
11:19<andythenorth>AI / player /s
11:19<andythenorth>I would be inclined to say just ship it
11:19<andythenorth>what we have
11:19<andythenorth>except for the weird compatibility junk
11:21<andythenorth>done > perfect
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11:23<supermop>andythenorth in general, yes
11:24<supermop>nrt probably works good enough as is
11:25<andythenorth>but it's not done
11:25<andythenorth>and it can't be done
11:25<supermop>openttd wasn't done but they let me download it back in the 0.7.x times
11:37<andythenorth>but only the signals, pathfinder, newgrf, timetables and vehicle physics were actually broken then
11:37<andythenorth>not much
11:38<andythenorth>frosch123: how about we ship, catenary is trams only?
11:39<andythenorth>problems eliminated
11:44<andythenorth>why is catenary a thing?
11:44<andythenorth>isn't it just decoration?
11:50<andythenorth>decoration cb
11:50<andythenorth>no catenary
11:51<andythenorth>vehicle compatibility is 1:1 determined by type
11:51<andythenorth>road and tram are orthogonal
11:51<andythenorth>any type that wants to show catenary draws it as decoration
11:51<andythenorth>decoration cb cycles through sprites for both sides of road
11:51<andythenorth>frosch123: ^^^
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12:09<andythenorth>hi Snail_
12:10<Snail_>hi andythenorth
12:11<Snail_>I like your attempt to improve Extreme economy, just please try not to introduce any new cargoes (at least for now) ;)
12:13<andythenorth>I am drawing ships and trains for next [n] months
12:17<Samu>nerf trains
12:17<andythenorth>I don't need to transport any nerfs
12:18<andythenorth>NERF is not a FIRS cargo
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12:45<Wolf01>What if we just solve the problem visually and keep whatever catenary exists in tiles?
12:46<Wolf01>It's grf author problem to show if there is trolleybus catenary or tram catenary
12:47<Wolf01>supermop: you already solved this, no?
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12:57<andythenorth>Snail_: if you stick around, I'll put the classes in FIRS docs
12:58<Snail_>andythenorth: sounds great! :)
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>i think one of the problems is that it's trying to build upon the distinction between "road" and "tram", which is clerly insufficiant
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>there's road (with various surfaces)
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>there's road decoration
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>there's trolley catenary
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>there's tram rails
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>there's tram catenary
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>there's tram 3rd rail
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>each of them has different restrictions with which it is compatible
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>like trolley catenary can only be built along roads, where tram rails can be laid without road
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>tram catenary can only be built along trams, but most of the time it should be treated as one unit with the tram rails
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>trolley catenary should be removable from town roads, so it needs its separate owner
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>3rd rail cannot be built along roads, only crossings allowed
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>there should be tram rails that are not allowed along roads, but have different speed limit
13:09<Snail_>andythenorth: what year will Vehicle Bodies be available from?
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13:11<andythenorth>I am very against date-restricted cargos and industries
13:11<andythenorth>I would have removed them, but too much complaining :P
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13:16<Thedarkb>I'm trying to build openttd from the source and it's looking for a graphics driver.
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>which OS?
13:17<Snail_>got it ;)
13:17<Snail_>andythenorth: shouldn’t Assembly Plants also supply Farm Supplies?
13:17<Snail_>think tractors...
13:17<Thedarkb>Kind of.
13:18<LordAro>Thedarkb: what's the error message?
13:18<Thedarkb>I did something weird and now it's reporting as both...
13:18<Thedarkb>Anyway, it says the driver isn't found and that I need to run configure with a --dedicated flag.
13:18<Thedarkb>But I don't want to run a dedicated server.
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>Thedarkb: you're probably missing SDL (1) development files
13:19<LordAro>sounds like you're mis- ^
13:19<LordAro>Thedarkb: `apt-get build-dep openttd` will install all necessary deps on debian
13:19<Thedarkb>Will do.
13:19<Thedarkb>Some libs are deprecated though
13:19<LordAro>define "deprecated"
13:20<LordAro>i.e., please quote the error/warning messages
13:20<Thedarkb>I'll come back when I'm on the machine I'm trying to build it on.
13:20<LordAro>(into a pastebin of some sort if >3 lines)
13:23<andythenorth>Snail_: think 'how many output cargos?' o_O
13:23<andythenorth>also FMSP are not demanded much in Steeltown
13:25<Snail_>oh… max is 2?
13:25<andythenorth>I have no idea why some of the classes are set
13:25<andythenorth>but eh
13:25<supermop>eddi: how do you see tram 3rd rail as different than just a type of catenary or type of track?
13:26<andythenorth>who's ever going to set 'hazardous' ?
13:26<andythenorth>and why / how
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think it's a remnant from this "OpenTTD+500" "project", the only part which sounded reasonable enough that anybody might actually use it
13:28<andythenorth>'covered' I think has been used, as an exclude on open vehicles
13:28<andythenorth>but what, I have to provide 'hazardous cargos' truck?
13:28<andythenorth>it makes no sense even as an exclude
13:28<andythenorth>maybe it's for CB36 novelties instead
13:29<andythenorth>I could nerf horse with realism
13:29<andythenorth>'hazardous cargos must have 2 brake vans'
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>maybe hazardous materials cannot be driven through towns (with NRT) :p
13:29<Snail_>great :) thanks, Andy
13:30<Snail_>btw why did you have to introduce the new METL cargo label?
13:30<Snail_>in my set, I’m treating it exactly like STEL...
13:30<andythenorth>because STEL isn't METL
13:30<andythenorth>they're different
13:30<Snail_>couldn’y you have kept STEL and just renamed it in Extreme economy?
13:31<andythenorth>yes, but I didn't
13:32<andythenorth>keeps vehicle set authors entertained
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: maybe you can get away with merging them into the track type, but it seemed different enough that i listed it separately
13:35<Thedarkb>Over here, hazardous cargo needs one brake van but two buffer wagons at either end in case of a collision.
13:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: surely it's just the track type?
13:38<andythenorth>and arbitrary graphics?
13:38<andythenorth>we don't have these concepts in railtypes
13:38<andythenorth>seems NRT is extensively complex :P
13:39<Snail_>I’d love to separate rails and electrification systems...
13:39<Snail_>that would open many possibilities
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the complexity comes from the fact that a road tile can have multiple owners
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>which is not a problem that railtypes faced, so they could take the lazy path there
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>clearly you cannot get away with that for roadtypes
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>you could reduce that to 4 not-entirely-orthogonal types: road (none, dirt, cobble, asphalt), decoration (grass, pavement, trees, lamps), rail (none, tram, fast tram) and electrification (none, trolley catenary, tram catenary, 3rd rail)
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>which would "solve" the catenary problem by only allowing one catenary on each roadbit
13:44<andythenorth>why is multiple owners relevant?
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>so trolley and tram catenary can only cross each other, not go along
13:45<andythenorth>none of the problems that killed NRT are due to multiple owners
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so i imagined there being a problem with trolley catenary not being removable from town roads?
13:45<andythenorth>actually I adjust my comment
13:46<andythenorth>given that Town is an owner
13:46<andythenorth>towns don't own rail
13:46<andythenorth>that is basically the issue that makes NRT failed
13:46<andythenorth>and that will apply to any spec
13:46<Samu>3 AIs remaining
13:46<andythenorth>so fundamentally, this isn't possible
13:47<andythenorth>assuming no infra-sharing
13:47<andythenorth>modifying tiles owned by someone else just isn't possible in OpenTTD
13:48<andythenorth>and towns own roads
13:48<andythenorth>so any attempt at roadtypes can never work
13:48<andythenorth>maybe we just do tramtypes? Wolf01
13:49<Wolf01>I would do roadtypes more, you might just need 3 trams
13:49<andythenorth>roadtypes aren't possible :)
13:49<andythenorth>because of towns
13:50<Wolf01>With a well crafted grf it might work, we need to solve the problem of changing town roads (without upgrade or downgrade shit)
13:50<andythenorth>that's not possible in current OpenTTD
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>i would define "upgrade" as "must be compatible with ROAD", and then hope that grf authors don't do silly stuff with changing ROAD
13:51<andythenorth>no player may modify another player's infastructure
13:51<andythenorth>it's a fundamental tenet of the game
13:51<Wolf01>With the exception of town owned roads, you can blow them up
13:51<Samu>diagonal roads?
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>so you can convert "cobble road with trolley catenary" to "asphalt road without catenary"
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>but not to haul road
13:52<Samu>if you will rework roads, create diagonal for them :p
13:53<andythenorth>so I convert the road, now I own it?
13:53<Wolf01>What if old_roadtype & new_roadtype = old_roadtype?
13:53<Wolf01>(speaking about flags and compatibility)
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>possibly you can add that the speed limit should not be lower than before
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>(i think that's already the case for bridges)
13:54<Wolf01>Nah, that won't break compatibility, you should be able to change the speed limit as you want
13:55<Wolf01>Samu: not the right topic, we are discussing about NRT (which is a 1.5 years old feature, so you should already know what it does)
13:57<Wolf01>Also, andythenorth, if you convert a town road you should take ownership, who comes first wins
13:58<andythenorth>that's an exploit
13:58<Wolf01>That's what you already do when you are placing one way roads
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>but then the reverse should be true, if town upgrades the road during its expansion loop (assuming that will be a feature), it should reclaim ownership of the road
13:58<andythenorth>currently removing road is only possible for certain cases
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>(or the roadside decoration)
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13:59<andythenorth>if you can take ownership, you can remove it
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13:59<LordAro>rip ottdc
13:59<andythenorth>currently only tiles with 1 connection can be removed, and only if rating is high
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think there's a setting for that
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13:59<Wolf01>Nah, with good rating you can dismantle a town
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14:00<Samu>i've heard about NRT, but honestly, I haven't been following it
14:00<andythenorth>an older roadtype spec found enough bits for 3 types
14:00<andythenorth>which was discarded in favour of simplicity
14:01<andythenorth>however if there was a 3rd type for town-owned...
14:01<andythenorth>player can add trolley, but town ROAD remains
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14:02<Eddi|zuHause>there is a different possibility: all road-surface within a town's authority range will be subject to town intervention. so even though you built a road, you cannot simply remove it, because it is now in the public interest
14:02<Samu>2 AIs remaining on my tests, TracAI and Terron
14:02<Wolf01>But changes a lot of how the game works now
14:03<Wolf01>Say, you built a wrong piece of road while building a bus terminal and you are fucked
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>needs a planning mode :p
14:04<andythenorth>Wolf01: have we got enough bits for town ROAD? :P
14:05<Wolf01>I think we need 4 more bits for town owner, or just 1 bit to say "owned by town"+current owner
14:05<andythenorth>player can only build if compatible with ROAD
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>4 bits for road surface type, 5 bits for road owner, 4 bits for decoration type (needs no owner), 4 bits for track type, 4 bits for track owner, 4 bits for catenary type, 4 bits for catenary owner
14:05<andythenorth>not sure what it solves, but player can't take ownership
14:06<andythenorth>catenary is misleading
14:06<Wolf01>If townbit = 0 the owner is the player who built it, if 1 the owner is implicitly the town and the "owner" becomes the player who last modified it
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: that's still 5 bits
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14:08<Wolf01>No, you don't need bits for town owner, towns have all the same owner, so it can be derived from just 1 bit
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14:09<Eddi|zuHause>that's how it works already, except that "owner town" uses all 5 bits from the owner
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14:09<Eddi|zuHause>if you split it 4+1, you can store the same thing plus extra owner in the same 5 bits
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14:09<Samu>what about owner_none
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>15 companies plus "owner none" = 4 bits
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14:10<Samu>oh, right
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14:10<Eddi|zuHause>you can modify a town road if owner is yourself or none, and the town allows it
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14:16<andythenorth>so what would happen?
14:17<andythenorth>I build roadtype NERF over town ROAD
14:17<andythenorth>what conditions permit that?
14:17<andythenorth>who can overbuild it?
14:17<andythenorth>who can remove it?
14:17<andythenorth>who can use it?
14:17<andythenorth>who can build stations on it?
14:17<andythenorth>is it eligible for roadworks?
14:18<Samu>1 AI remaining, but 32 years away :(
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14:18<Eddi|zuHause>conditions: owner must be none or you, new roadtype must be compatible with ROAD, you must have town rating
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>later overbuilding: since you are now the owner, nobody else (except town) may overbuild it
14:19<xat>is there a way to show a map in a gmaps style web site ? ;d
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>remove it: same
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>use: everyone
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>station: everyone
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>roadworks: yes
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>xat: there was "pngtile" ages ago, that could produce a scrollable map from a giant screenshot
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14:23<xat>yeah i remember that
14:24<xat>i don't remember but i had maybe a problem with the screenshot size ;o for like 2048² map
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds likely :p
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 2048**2*64*32/1024**3
14:25<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 8
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>needs 8GB of RAM for uncompressed 8bpp data
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>most programs will have trouble with that, as they cannot process partial images
14:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so I can't own a town? Because it has to be compatible with ROAD?
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: anything that isn't compatible with ROAD must be built on an empty tile, cannot overbuild an existing road
14:34<andythenorth>I'm going to discount griefing
14:34<andythenorth>it's not interesting
14:34<andythenorth>so what's left to solve?
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>tram vs trolley catenary
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>(catenary is not decoration)
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14:35<Eddi|zuHause>especially crossing tram and trolley lines
14:36<andythenorth>catenary is just per type
14:36<andythenorth>there is too much confusion about this
14:36<andythenorth>compatibility is from the label
14:36<andythenorth>and whatever the type chooses to draw as catenary, or not, is what is drawn, or not
14:36<andythenorth>there is some mythical implied 'electrified' property, which needs discounting
14:37<andythenorth>it's a dead end
14:37<andythenorth>if I want to draw christmas lights on ROAD by abusing catenary, that's up to me
14:37<andythenorth>it doesn't electrify TRAM on the same tile
14:38<andythenorth>I am going opposite to frosch123's spec on this :)
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>that's a valid opinion, but it doesn't resolve the drawing conflict
14:38<andythenorth>authors will just have to draw carefully
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>keep in mind that the road author might be different from the tram author
14:38<andythenorth>yes, but that's a poor choice
14:39<andythenorth>can't help players who have no taste
14:39<andythenorth>we don't prevent e.g. 32bpp EZ
14:39<andythenorth>even though it looks awful
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>even then, you still need to provide the grf author with enough tools to handle the situation
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>in a deterministic way
14:40<andythenorth>if it's a cb, they're covered
14:40<andythenorth>it's it just sprite numbers, dunno
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>a sprite number solution would be preferable speed-wise, i think
14:41<andythenorth>frosch proposed a cb for one global catenary
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>same reason why railtypes did not get any useful variables
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that didn't quite convince me
14:42<andythenorth>I'm not convinced by shared global catenary
14:42<andythenorth>cb performance I can't comment
14:42<andythenorth>Wolf01: if we do NRT right, BGT isn't blocked at all
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15:01<Wolf01>andythenorth, yep
15:01<Wolf01>The problem is to avoid to block BGT by fixing some features which shouldn't be fixed
15:08<Wormnest>Samu: New version of NoNoCAB available in case you want to test more ;)
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15:24<Samu>ok, will test
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15:49<nicfer>Hi again
15:50<nicfer>What's the difference between EXTRACTIVE and ORGANIC industries life_time values?
15:50<nicfer>Does that define the "Forests produce slower" behaviour?
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>possibly also the mine collapse disaster
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>not sure
16:02<frosch123> <- nicfer: it's described there
16:04<nicfer>Well, I was checking the NML part of that grf wiki
16:04<frosch123>they are not always in sync :)
16:04<nicfer>Guess it's not as complete as the newgrf one
16:09<nicfer>Hmmm, that page is also undescriptive
16:11<nicfer>Just the "effect on nearby stations", and nothing about the difference between extractive and organic
16:13<frosch123>it's the only differene
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16:41<supermop>eddi, do you forsee many situations where tram owner is different than tram wires owner?
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16:50<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: if someone builds a horsetram and someone else electrifies the (now shared) line?
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17:19<Samu>Wormnest: just started testing NoNoCAB v5
17:21<Samu>aww TracAI crashed
17:21<Samu>cpu evaluator crap
17:22<Samu>he was doing really well :(
17:22<Samu>so i'm only testing 1 ai
17:26<Wormnest>It´s sad that TracAI´s author disappeared right after releasing the first version.
17:26<Wormnest>There´s probably not much hope for fixes
17:35<Samu>he was really strong with aircraft
17:35<Samu>not that great with train routes though
17:35<Wormnest>No wonder the air part is based on my WormAI :p
17:35<Samu>considering there was infrastructure maintenance costs enabled
17:36<Samu>oh i see :p
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17:40<Samu>vehicletype 1, vehicletype 0....´
17:40<Samu>0 is trains?
17:40<Samu>1 is ?
17:49<Wormnest>I think road
17:50<Wormnest>Yes, rail 0, road 1, water 2, air 3
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 08 00:00:40 2018