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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-01-10

---Logopened Wed Jan 10 00:00:42 2018
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06:47<peter1138>RGB colour mapping... 5 years ago...
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07:28<Borg>HMMM... no API :) but.. lets see
07:29<Borg>but.. I can iterate over all stations.. (lazy iter, hope its possible in Squireel)
07:29<Borg>and stations outside of sector.. will be removed
07:30<Borg>ah.. but there is no api to actually remove it ;D
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09:08<Samu>1 hour = 5 game years?
09:08<Samu>who knows?
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09:30<_dp_>Samu, yeah, very close to that
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09:48<Samu>ok
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10:37<Samu>just finished testing all ais
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10:52<supermop_work>yo
10:54<Samu>hi
10:57<Borg>hmm is there a way to change GameScript paramets from console?
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11:12<Samu>there was 41 AIs tested
11:12<Samu>26 finished
11:12<Samu>9 bankrupted
11:12<Samu>6 crashed, of which 4 were with cpu evaluator
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11:19<Samu>how am I gonna score this..
11:19<Samu>this time, they were allowed to use all vehicles
11:20<@Alberth>score the crashed ones as minus infinite?
11:21<@Alberth>or with the number of years that they worked
11:21<Samu>hmm, i never thought of that
11:22<Samu>i don't have their saves and logs anymore, I usually only score those that last 100 years
11:22<@Alberth>do that then
11:23<@Alberth>crashed ones are unknown
11:23<Samu>i take note that they have crashed
11:23<Samu>but then I won't score them
11:23<Samu>meh, perhaps i should
11:24<Samu>too late :( maybe next time
11:24<@Alberth>not sure, how does an ai score that crashes after 13 years, in a 100 year game?
11:25<@Alberth>could use the company value at the time of the crash, perhaps?
11:26<@Alberth>how do you score other ais?
11:30<Samu>company value, last year profits, i'm unsure yet
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12:39<Samu>why am I including Rondje :(
12:39<Samu>didn't build, just survived 100 years
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12:45<@Rubidium>did you test it on its own?
12:45<@Rubidium>if so, then I guess that's to be expected
12:46<Samu>yes
12:47<@Rubidium>IIRC it uses the road infrastructure built by others
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12:49<Wolf01>o/
12:49<Wolf01>I wonder if here there is somebody which uses InstantDeveloper to make webapps
12:50<Samu>in very few cases, rondje builds stuff, if towns expand enough
12:50<Samu>it wasn't the case :/
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13:18<Wolf01>Changed splitters so they work more intuitively. The left and right lane splitting is now completely independent. The decision whether item goes to left or right output is now independent of the item type. <- this would break something
13:20<frosch123>all the sorting bs :)
13:20<Wolf01>Which I always rely on...
13:22<Wolf01>Now I need to separate with inserters... removing complexity from the game
13:22<ST2>will be fun to what what that will do on saves ^^
13:22<ST2>to watch*
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13:27<Wolf01>Yes, filters don't work anymore
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13:39<peter1138>Hmm?
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13:41<Wolf01>http://i.giphy.com/l2JHWiEAa44rO95Ty.gif
13:41<peter1138>I have no idea what is going on.
13:42<Wolf01>It separates iron from copper
13:51<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p8tvqrtjy/8ubo2a/raw
13:52<Samu>:)
13:52<Samu>weird results
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13:54<Samu>AroAI doing better than AIAI and CluelessPlus
13:55<Samu>RoadAI really can't cope with cargodist
13:55<Samu>it was the weirdest result
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13:59<Samu>EpicTrans and LuDiAI abused in the number of airports, the profit/income % really is low... infrastructure costs are too much
14:03<Wormnest_>Most ai´s were written before infrastructure costs were introduced
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14:09<Samu>syntrans could have done better, but it got stuck in a loop trying to build a bridge over rail :(
14:10<Samu>the old NoCAB really is slow
14:10<Samu>with only 5k ops
14:10<Samu>AIAI also felt slow
14:11<Samu>i was under the impression AIAI was built to be fast building
14:11<Samu>in the first 40 years it had nearly nothing
14:11<Samu>only very late it started to wake up
14:11<Samu>you see his profits
14:12<Samu>doesn't seem to match the company value
14:12<Samu>it was dormant most of the time
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14:28<Samu>what's the attachment limit?
14:28<Samu>20 MB? 25?
14:29<Samu>in the forum
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14:31<Samu>well nevermind, they all fit in 11 MB file
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14:33<andythenorth>hi
14:36<@Alberth>o/
14:37<andythenorth>is cat though?
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14:57<andythenorth>no cat then
15:01<Wolf01>o/, no cat
15:02<andythenorth>such roads
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15:22<supermop_work>what's the news with roads?
15:23<Wolf01>None, we remove roads from the game, along with canals, only rails
15:25<debdog>..and then rename it to openrrt
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15:44<andythenorth>yeah
15:47<Samu>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=82458&p=1201076#p1201076
15:47<Samu>tada!
15:47<Samu>missing screenshots, might post them later
15:47<Samu>not in the mood right now
15:48<Wolf01>Let's see if 16x flying robot frame can satisfy 1x flying robot factory
15:48<andythenorth>Wolf01: thinking to match up these with what's currently in NRT spec https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/ButGroundTypes#Idea
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15:49<Wolf01>Catenary is easy to split, the problem is when you have catenary + third rail, what do you show?
15:50<@Rubidium>Wolf01: both?
15:50<@Rubidium>it's realistic that both exist at the same location
15:51<Wolf01>Maybe
15:53<Wolf01>The best scenario possible is when you kill supermop and hide under the carpet the trolleybuses :P
15:53<@Rubidium>https://youtu.be/h4oifkbJoMY?t=1m
15:53<Wolf01>And make it so only tramway can have catenary
15:54<andythenorth>third rail is a non-problem
15:54<andythenorth>it's just on the ground
15:54<andythenorth>if you replace 'catenary' in your head with 'flowerpots'
15:54<andythenorth>and just assume we need to draw flowerpots in front of and behind vehicles
15:55<andythenorth>third rail is just drawn with the tram tracks. draw 2 rails, 3 rails, 4 rails, rack rails, ropeways who cares :)
15:55<Wolf01>But what if you want only 3RL trams on 3RL? One could imagine that ELRL could go on 3RL if you show "flowerpots"
15:55<andythenorth>it's about the label
15:56<andythenorth>dunno how to make that clear in a new spec :)
15:56<Wolf01>"you can draw catenary over 3RL only when there is road" flag
15:56<andythenorth>nah
15:57<andythenorth>road draws what it needs
15:57<andythenorth>tram draws what it needs
15:57<Wolf01>If you make a 3RL+ELRL compatible label then you can set the flag to draw catenary too
15:57<andythenorth>if player is confused, player chose a bad newgrf
15:57<andythenorth>I think it's simple
15:58<andythenorth>treat tram and road as orthogonal
15:58<andythenorth>they don't interact
15:58<andythenorth>they just happen to share same tile
15:59<Wolf01>Then leave it as it is now, just make a good grf which shows it fine
16:01<andythenorth>yes
16:01<andythenorth>just ignore the usability problem (in screenshot linked here) https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1201026#p1201026
16:01<andythenorth>there are lots of ways to make bad grfs, this isn't a spec issue
16:01<andythenorth>supermop: did you / would you consider trying different catenary in trolleybi?
16:02<andythenorth>Wolf01: currently there is only one catenary drawn, according to spec
16:03<Wolf01>Yes, road draws it
16:03<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes#Sprite_layers
16:03<andythenorth>we'd need to change that....
16:03<Wolf01>The idea was to extend it to compose the sprite using both catenaries from road and tram
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16:05<andythenorth>plausible too
16:05<andythenorth>so that's all solved :P
16:05<andythenorth>the hard part is deciding :P
16:06<andythenorth>that just leaves town roads
16:06<Wolf01>Maybe the grf itself could provide the catenary based on what there is on the tile, the problem would be to make all the catenary combinations for all the labels permutations
16:06<andythenorth>did we decide anything?
16:06<andythenorth>the grf might be combined with another grf
16:07<andythenorth>just let each type provide a catenary
16:07<andythenorth>the layering order might have some glitches :P
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16:18<andythenorth>hmm PNG merge needed with trunk :P
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16:37<Borg>ahahaha I did it :)
16:38<Borg>I found a limitations script.. when someone done limits for all stuff :) nice job
16:38<Borg>so.. you need to plant HQ first.. and then.. any stations that are far away from HQ will be demolished :D
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16:54<Wolf01>:o
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17:26<supermop_work>andythenorth: trolleybi is just trolleybuses
17:26<supermop_work>but in a road grf, sure i'd be open to something different
17:27<supermop_work>currently i have 3 types of 'poles' (creosote, galvanized, and modern pylons)
17:28<supermop_work>and 4 types of wires ( trolleywire strung on cable between poles, and high tension catenary suspension, for both road and tram)
17:29<supermop_work>As NRT works now iirc, it draws 1) rear pole sprites, 2) wire sprites, 3) front pole sprites
17:31<Wolf01>'night
17:31<supermop_work>and the whole stack seems to be drawn as the road stack, if roadtype provides, else tram stack, if provided
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17:34<supermop_work>if NRT allowed drawing the road wires directly on top of the tram wires, my grfs would work fine as is - and I drew the sprites accounting for this eventuality
17:35<supermop_work>should also work whether it draws both sets of poles, or only the road poles
17:35<supermop_work>all that said, i would be will to rework sprites if a compelling spec change asked for it
17:44<andythenorth>I want to try drawing both catenaries
17:45<andythenorth>but not tonight eh :)
17:45<andythenorth>bed
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18:46<Samu>windows updates*
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18:56<Samu>i was mistaken about tracai, it crashed, but not a cpu evaluator crash
18:56<Samu>nevermind, it was cpu evaluator crash
18:56<Samu>man, i'm seeing things...
18:57<ST2>Samu: tell me your dealers contact ^^
18:58<Samu>the thing crashes in many ways
18:58<Samu>it was cpu evaluator this time
19:04<Samu>I learned a few things from these testings
19:04<Samu>some AIs don't work well with 250k ops
19:04<Samu>EpicTrans is an example
19:05<Samu>I notice that they don't work too close to the loan limit
19:05<Samu>they are slower, and that's enough to keep them from wasting money that quickly
19:05<Samu>avoiding unnecessary bankrupt
19:06<Samu>I was always convinced 250k ops would benefit them, but apparently, I was wrong
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19:11<Samu>@calc -9633/-0
19:11<@DorpsGek>Samu: Error: complex division by zero
19:11<ST2>aka: an infinite number ^^
19:13<Samu>infrastructure costs for airports are still ridiculous, even when giving fat planes, like Dinger 200
19:14<Samu>from the start
19:15<Samu>one AI has an income of £15M, but the profit is only £3M because he got 80 airports
19:17<Samu>comparing with AIs who don't use airports, infrastructure maintenance costs are much more in-line
19:18<Samu>MogulAI, which uses the most road pieces, got an income of £12M and a profit of £9,9M
19:18<Samu>12k road pieces
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---Logclosed Thu Jan 11 00:00:44 2018