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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-01-13

---Logopened Sat Jan 13 00:00:47 2018
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04:44<andythenorth>hi Wolf01
04:44<andythenorth>cat catenary?
04:44<Wolf01>Already doing it
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04:55<Wolf01>Good, at least now I made it compile without crashing :P
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04:57<EarthlingKira>Good morning, I'm new here :3
04:59<EarthlingKira>OpenTTD has the nicest C++ code I've seen in an open-source game project to this day (even though I haven't looked into that many)
04:59<Wolf01>Lol :D
04:59<EarthlingKira>Why is that funny?
05:00<EarthlingKira>Do you think it has bad code? You always should compare relative to other experiences :D
05:00<Wolf01>I've seen better code, but yes, the parts I can understand well and change are enough well done
05:00<EarthlingKira>Better code in open source game projects?
05:01<EarthlingKira>If so please tell me (just to have a look and maybe learn a thing or two)
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05:04<Wolf01>OTTD is the only open source "game" I follow, other projects I've put my hands one were designed in a different way
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05:06<EarthlingKira>Yes, I surely also know better code in other projects which are either developed by a tight-knit group (like a company dev team) or are not game projects
05:13<LordAro>EarthlingKira: OTTD's code can be pretty hairy. it's totally consistent, which is nice, but ultimately the codebase is still mostly C (given that's what it used to be) and a hell of a lot of globals
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05:24<Wolf01>Heh, I just noticed I want a "pipette" tool to activate a road building tool based on what there is on the tile I'm hovering, with NRT (and railtypes) it will come really handy
05:24<Wolf01>It might be a problem on tiles with level crossings or 2 different roadtypes, but in all other cases it should be easy
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen a cities syklines lets play where the guy constantly complained that there's no pipette tool
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>if there are multiple types, you just cycle throught hem?
05:25<Wolf01>Too much F got me used to these bad ideas :(
05:26<Wolf01>Yeah, good suggestion Eddi
05:27<Wolf01>Ok, now I got rid of all the occurrencies of the check for road catenary and moved all of them in a single function
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05:28<Wolf01>So I can change the behaviour in a single place
05:32<andythenorth>got a commit?
05:32<Wolf01>Not yer
05:33<andythenorth>I'll draw ships then
05:34<Wolf01>Ok, I can commit now
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05:40<Wolf01>Slow connection is slow
05:44<andythenorth>do we have test grfs? o_O
05:44<andythenorth>supermop: trolleybi has catenary eh?
05:45<Wolf01>Branch: both-catenaries
05:45<Wolf01>Yes, checking with trolleybi
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05:51<Borg>anyone know if.. and how.. to change GS settings via console?
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05:53<EarthlingKira>@all for players who like to make rather short cargo routes (and not be forced to make long routes, but still be able to do it) I've created balance patches:
05:53<andythenorth>lose money on short routes? :o
05:54*andythenorth never has that problem :)
05:54<andythenorth>how short is short?
05:54<EarthlingKira>I've actually not yet found a patch or NewGRF who's done it like that. I've only found a NewGRF to limit maximum payments to a fixed distance (which sucks, sometimes you have to make long routes) and I've found a NewGRF which has linear payments for every distance (this also sucks, bus stations 2 tiles away give too much profit)
05:54<EarthlingKira>@andythenorth I'm talking about like 3-5 tiles
05:55<EarthlingKira>Or transporting coal 10 tiles away with trucks also made me loose money. (4% inflation, high maintenance costs, infrastructure maintenance enabled)
05:55<andythenorth>ok, I would think 'short' is about 10 tiles
05:55<andythenorth>you have inflation on?
05:55<andythenorth>inflation is a bug
05:55<EarthlingKira>And inflation is coupled to loan interest says the setting description
05:56<EarthlingKira>Nah, I like inflation
05:56<andythenorth>if had trunk commit rights, inflation would be deleted
05:56<Wolf01>andythenorth: wires are a pixel mess :D but at least you can see both poles for road and tram
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05:56<Wolf01>We are lucky you don't have commit rights ;)
05:56<EarthlingKira>@andythenorth do you have high maintenance costs and infrastructure maintenance enabled then?
05:57<andythenorth>also I play with my own newgrfs
05:57<EarthlingKira>Ah well sure then you can make a profit with routes ~ 10 tiles :D
05:57<EarthlingKira>I really like my small city bus lines with stations everywhere and I want them to make some money
05:58<andythenorth>my bus stops are about 10-12 tiles apart
06:00<EarthlingKira>What about the houses inbetween?
06:00<Wolf01>I try to make bus stops so catchement areas don't overlap :P
06:00<EarthlingKira>It has only 3 catchment area tiles, right?
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06:00<EarthlingKira>That would be 7 tiles distance
06:00<andythenorth>I was counting manhattan distance ;)
06:01<EarthlingKira>(or 8?)
06:01<EarthlingKira>are you letting your buses drive zigzag in case? :D
06:01<andythenorth>just the shape of the town
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>i ususlly put my stops closer
06:02<andythenorth>anyway GL EarthlingKira
06:02<andythenorth>all attempts to nerf distance payment have been resisted
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06:04<Wolf01>So, did you try it, andythenorth?
06:04<Wolf01>It = the cat
06:04<andythenorth>Wolf01: have you pushed one that draws both>?
06:04<andythenorth>I've got the de-duplicated commit
06:04<peter1138>Hmm, do I really want to download 739 MB just for... audio drivers?
06:04<andythenorth>but I only see one catenary
06:05<Wolf01>It contains both, strange
06:05<Wolf01>Check road_cmd.cpp:1474
06:05<andythenorth>defers to whichever was built first I think
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06:06<Borg>EarthlingKira: in city transportation is usually donated from city officials dude
06:06<Borg>its never profitable ;)
06:06<Wolf01>It just draws road and then tram
06:06<Wolf01>Tram is always on top of road one
06:06<andythenorth>I try more grfs
06:06<Borg>go to multiplauer server.. find mogul who asks for city grow.. and he will donate you some cash :D
06:08<andythenorth>ok I can see it
06:08<andythenorth>but not like that
06:08<andythenorth>wonder if I have different unspooled
06:08<Wolf01>Grey on grey is a bit hard to see
06:08<andythenorth>I have v2 unspooled
06:08<andythenorth>the poles seem to overlap
06:09<Wolf01>I have.. I wonder which version :D
06:09<EarthlingKira>@andythenorth Thank you, I don't think that this patch should go into trunk (although I could imagine it being based on a setting)
06:10<EarthlingKira>And the patch doesn't just reduce distance payments, it rather changes the algorithm to be partially logarithmic
06:10<EarthlingKira>Earn more on short distances, less on long distances
06:11<andythenorth>Wolf01: can you DM me the version of unspooled you have?
06:11<EarthlingKira>2 years ago I already patched my own game and used a real logarithm but then I've seen that I can't use doubles/floats because of desync possibilities m(
06:13<EarthlingKira>Oh and I have one final patch @channel
06:13<EarthlingKira>I did not want a complete breakdown system overhaul like other patches do... I just wanted the chance algorithm and reduced breakdown chance settings to make more sense
06:14<EarthlingKira>So this is just a small tweak to the original chance calculation algorithm which makes it *MUCH* more enjoyable and reliability actually changes things now
06:14<EarthlingKira>And reduced breakdown chance no longer causes vehicles between 60% and 100% reliability to behave exactly the same...
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06:15<Wolf01>Meh, I have 0.005bps upload
06:16<Wolf01>andythenorth: check forum PM
06:17<Borg>honestly.. prospecting algoritm should be fixed.. so it will not place production and raw industries close to each other
06:17<Wolf01>(I hope it was uploaded fine)
06:18<andythenorth>Wolf01: got it
06:19<andythenorth>still don't see separate poles
06:19<andythenorth>but both wires are drawn
06:19<Wolf01>Did you try with all different roadtypes?
06:19<andythenorth>the poles are drawn
06:19<andythenorth>they just overlap
06:19<andythenorth>sprite inspector finds them
06:19<andythenorth>ok so it probably works eh
06:19<andythenorth>think it's good
06:20<andythenorth>ok found a non-overlapping type
06:21<andythenorth>so what authors need to do is
06:21<andythenorth>don't try and differentiate wires
06:21<andythenorth>use the poles, preferably colour-themed
06:21<andythenorth>will be fine
06:21<andythenorth>poles are much more legible + different
06:21<andythenorth>wires are blah
06:22<Wolf01>Wires are a line of grey pixels on grey
06:22<andythenorth>they barely show anyway because of tram rails
06:22<andythenorth>so unspooled does it fine
06:22<andythenorth>I reckon merge that
06:22<andythenorth>it's just drawing code?
06:22<andythenorth>no savegame or anything?
06:23<Wolf01>Just drawing code
06:23<EarthlingKira>Btw, one final question regarding my patches: How's the process in case they are trunk-worthy, who would decide that? I'm willing to create boolean options and settings with parameters to change the magnitudes :)
06:23<andythenorth>cool, merge to road-and-tram-types
06:23<andythenorth>EarthlingKira: currently no-one knows :)
06:23<andythenorth>it's pretty much luck whether anything gets to trunk
06:24<Wolf01>Are you sure? I would wait for frosch green light
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06:25<Wolf01>Also I would make the patch better, merge the "DrawRoadCatenary" with "DrawCatenary"
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06:32<Rybeast>Any ideas why one of my trams might have completely stopped and failed to work? I've checked timetabling, pathing, when some trams push past they're able to go in both ways the broken tram should go, but now there is a huge tailback and I don't know how to rectify
06:33<andythenorth>Wolf01: ok code review probably a good idea
06:33<andythenorth>Rybeast: missing track piece?
06:34<Rybeast>It's definitely not a missing track piece. Trams are still able to follow the exact path in all three ways
06:35<andythenorth>is it stopped?
06:35<Wolf01>It just stopped there with speed=0?
06:35<andythenorth>red flag stopped?
06:36<Rybeast>Doesn't seem to be. All the trams are green
06:36<andythenorth>is it on a hill
06:36<Rybeast>nope. on the flat
06:36<andythenorth>is it broken down?
06:36<Rybeast>jiust not moving
06:36<Rybeast>at all
06:37<Wolf01>I ran into this problem with NRT
06:37<Rybeast>i wondered if I'd set timetabling up incorrectly, but it doesn't seem to be affected by my moving and editing timetabling
06:41<Wolf01>A branch we are working on
06:41<Wolf01>Did you change the grf?
06:44<Rybeast>well, I added some last night, but I don't think I changed any, no
06:45<Rybeast>haven't edited at all
06:45<Wolf01>But you changed active grfs in a running game?
06:46<Rybeast>they were there before I started
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06:46<Wolf01>Do you have a savegame of before the problem occours?
06:47<Rybeast>I don't think so, no
06:47<Rybeast>lemme check
06:48<Wolf01>frosch123: made this, commission by andy :P
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06:50<Rybeast>I do, but it doesn't show anything there either.Everything does what it should do. It was when I added the newer trams I guess, but I don't know why
06:53<Wolf01>Could you replicate it without adding the new trams?
06:54<Rybeast>I'm going to have a quick look now
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06:55<Wolf01> lol, why people needs to write like that?
06:56<frosch123>it was christmas
07:01<andythenorth>Wolf01: so just town roads to solve now?
07:01<andythenorth>everything else is blah blah
07:01<Wolf01>And fix scenario editor
07:02<Wolf01>There's already a branch for that
07:03<Wolf01>But that does a lot more, so I'll need to extract a part and apply it to the base branch
07:03<EarthlingKira>Btw, do you think a rework of the advertisement campaigns make sense, i.e. does anyone use them?
07:04<Wolf01>I used it 2 or 3 times
07:04<EarthlingKira>They actually sometimes make sense in ECS to increase production rate of factories
07:05<EarthlingKira>But otherwise the effect is gone too fast
07:07<EarthlingKira>I think the effect of a large advertisement campaign should stay for 3 or 6 months and have a larger radius
07:08*Wolf01 -> lunch
07:08<EarthlingKira>I think the advertisement system should be balanced around the idea that you can *actually* increase your revenue with doing non-stop advertisements
07:09<EarthlingKira>(when you have lots of stations in/around a certain city)
07:09<andythenorth>frosch123: I thought this was a graphviz issue, but on second-reading, it's a makefile problem?
07:09<andythenorth>the \\ are noticeable...
07:12<frosch123>well, windows, ¯¯\o/¯¯
07:14<frosch123>andythenorth: i guess your problem is bin/find-files
07:14<frosch123>line 15
07:15<frosch123>it thinks "\" is part of the name and no directory separator
07:15<frosch123>and then escapes it
07:17<frosch123>i don't think it is fixable without try-error on an actual windows system
07:17<frosch123>noone can predict when those tools use / or \
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07:32<Wolf01>On windows you should use / anyway
07:33<andythenorth>I have NFI how to even start solving this :)
07:33<andythenorth>I do have windows VM, but it's vanilla, no dev tools of any kind
07:33<andythenorth>just for IE testing
07:33<Wolf01>I have windows but it's bloated of dev tools
07:41<EarthlingKira>@Wolf01 but that is because windows dev tools are bloated by themselves. Visual Studio up to 82 GiB install size m(
07:42<Wolf01>Nah, I installed even more dev tools
07:45<Wolf01>I was (am) a web developer, so I also have a lot of node, ruby, sass related stuff, php stuff too, android stuff (both VS xamarin and android studio)
07:46<Wolf01>And a bit of asm and plc stuff
07:47<EarthlingKira>Web development on Windows :'( I'm also (partially) a web developer, but I switched to Linux 10 years ago for coding and never looked back :3
07:48<Wolf01>Now I use WLS to do things I didn't could do before, It was made exactly for that, so I don't even need to dualboot
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08:49<Samu>hmm patches to nerf stuff!
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08:57<Jamesy>Hello. I've been setting my vehicles to have services every x days or when the percentage drops to y. The vehicles don't seem to be headed back to depot to be serviced however. How would I sort this?
08:58<Samu>the depot might be too far away
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's "percentage drops <by> X (from the maximum)"
08:58<Jamesy>But they all pass the depot between the two stations?
08:58<Samu>are breakdowns enabled?
08:59<Samu>well, then.... i dunno
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>so if you set 80%, and the max is 93%, it would need to be 13% to trigger, or something
08:59<Jamesy>so if my percentage was 60%, it could drop down to 33% before needing servicing?
08:59<Samu>i think 15% is the ideal value
09:00<Samu>the default of 50% is kinda ridiculous
09:01<Jamesy>it is, but even then I have trains who have a reliability of 0
09:02<Samu>hmm this might be something worth testing
09:02<Jamesy>so i'm having to identify these trains and send t depot manually and adjust the servicing requirements
09:02<Samu>hunting the ideal breakdown as a % value :p
09:03<Jamesy>which makes sense, because the trains reliability can't drop any further, so is the game identifying that the train doesn't need servicing because it hasn't dropped by x in that time, even though it has dropped below the baseline already?
09:04<Samu>do you have send to depot orders?
09:04<Samu>they're not automatically serviced
09:06<Samu>i feel like testing EarthlingKira patches
09:06<Jamesy>I haven't put in 'send to depot' - if I do, is there an option to 'send if'?
09:08<Samu>try "service at nearest depot" or "service at <input depot>"
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there is "service at depot" if you ctrl+click while placing
09:09<Samu>when the vehicle executes that order, and it needs servicing, it will head to depot
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>that means "go to depot, but only if servicing is needed"
09:09<Samu>if it doesn't needs servicing, it just skips the order
09:12<Jamesy>Can I set out a precedent to all my vehicles of that type? Like, I've got 18 freight trains running around?
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09:13<Eddi|zuHause>you can do shared orders
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>so all 18 freight trains have a common order list
09:13<Jamesy>Ooh, how do I do that?
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>then all future changes will apply to all of them simultaneously
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>you assign the orders to the first train like normal, and on the second train, you don't assign any station, but with the "go to" tool you ctrl+click on the first train
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>(without ctrl it makes a copy of the order list, with ctrl it shares the order list)
09:15<Jamesy>excellent, so by 'control clicking' I'll only need to do the one order?
09:22<EarthlingKira>@Samu Feel free, and if you have suggestions I'm glad to hear them :)
09:25<andythenorth>so who wants to patch FIRS for Windows then? o_O
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09:43<supermop>yo andythenorth what's this talk of poles?
09:43<supermop>and do you need old versions?
09:43<supermop>all versions should have same pole sprites tho
09:44<Montana_>i updated a translation for FIRS this morning
09:44<Montana_>is that update automatically uploaded to FIRS repo?
09:45<frosch123>normally you also get a playable .grf at about 17:15 CET, but probably not today
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09:46<supermop>pole sprites do need some work
09:47<supermop>and there is a bug with front most pole not showing on U tiles where the loop is at the lower left or right
09:47<andythenorth>Montana has gone
09:47<andythenorth>I am probably going to release FIRS today
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09:48<Montana_>Sorry, internet connection interupted
09:49<Montana_>but i did read your message Frosch
09:49<frosch123>[15:47] <andythenorth> I am probably going to release FIRS today
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10:06<Samu>testing the breakdown patch, i hope it screws aircraft
10:07<EarthlingKira>@Samu My breakdown patch reduces the amount of breakdown occurrences, why should it screw aircraft?
10:08<Samu>because they're imba
10:08<EarthlingKira>Do you mean compared to playing without breakdowns? ;-)
10:10<Samu>i'm unsure what this patch does, you say ships never breakdown if they had 60%
10:11<EarthlingKira>Oops, maybe my wording is misleading
10:12<Samu>ah, same reliability
10:12<EarthlingKira>In the vanilla OpenTTD when playing with "reduced breakdowns" a ship with 60% reliability and a ship with 100% reliability will break exactly the same amount of time
10:12<EarthlingKira>Oops, I mean
10:13<EarthlingKira>Forget my last sentence :D
10:13<EarthlingKira>A ship which has >= 60% reliability (so no matter if 60%, 80% or 100%) will not profit at all from "reduced breakdown chance" setting
10:14<EarthlingKira>It will break exactly the same amount of time no matter if you have the setting enabled or not
10:15<EarthlingKira>With my patch you a) really always have a reduced breakdown chance when that setting is enabled and b) reliability % has a much stronger effect on breakdown chance
10:15<Samu>this is a bad timing for building openttd, i'm testing AIs at the same time :(
10:17<EarthlingKira>And c) when playing with "reduced breakdowns" setting a train with 60% reliability now breaks more often than one with 100%, as you would expect
10:17<EarthlingKira>In vanilla openttd with "reduced breakdown" setting trains from 60% to 100% and ships from 20% to 100% reliability are indistinguishable
10:18<Samu>that seems strange
10:18<EarthlingKira>I would really hope that that patch is merged into trunk, because I want to play with reduced breakdowns but still have a train with 60% reliability be worse than a train with 100%, right?
10:19<Samu>i'm not sure if I follow you yet, but it peaked my interest
10:20<EarthlingKira>Okay I explain the other way around: in vanilla OpenTTD:
10:21<EarthlingKira>- ships always get a flat invisible 40% bonus to reliability
10:21<Samu>if (v->type == VEH_SHIP) rel += 0x6666;
10:21<EarthlingKira>- every vehicle/ship/airplane gets another flat invisible 40% bonus to reliability when "reduced breakdown" is active
10:22<EarthlingKira>That means a train with 60% reliability has an effective reliability of 100% with that setting enabled, while a train with 100% reliability also has an effective reliability of 100%
10:22<Samu>if (_settings_game.difficulty.vehicle_breakdowns == 1) rel += 0x6666;
10:22<Samu>i see
10:23<Samu>that is the part I still don't get it
10:23<Samu>_breakdown_chance[(uint)min(rel, 0xffff) >> 10]
10:24<Samu>is this it?
10:24<EarthlingKira>the min(rel, 0xffff) basically says that the maximum reliability you can have is 100%, no matter how much was added before
10:25<EarthlingKira>And the code around that part is to convert this big number into one that is used for the breakdown chance
10:26<Samu>static const byte _breakdown_chance[64] = { 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 9, 9, 10, 10, 11, 11, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 25, 28, 31, 34, 37, 40, 44, 48, 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 170, 190, 210, 230, 250, 250, 250, };
10:26<EarthlingKira>Yes that's the one
10:28<EarthlingKira>you get a comparison value of 250 when you have 100% reliability and a comparison value of 3 when you have 0% reliability
10:29<EarthlingKira>In vanilla OpenTTD the reliability only says how long it will take to reach the breakdown threshold
10:29<EarthlingKira>So a higher reliability does not really decrease breakdown chance, it only takes longer (sounds like it's the same, but it's not :D)
10:31<Borg>hmmm ... Cargo flow tool is invaluable tool now.. when using stockpiling industries :)
10:32<Samu>@calc ffff >> 10
10:32<@DorpsGek>Samu: Error: 'ffff' is not a defined function.
10:32<Samu>hmm k
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10:32<Samu>@calc 0xffff >> 10
10:32<@DorpsGek>Samu: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
10:33<Samu>whatever, my calcultator says that is = 0
10:33<Samu>_breakdown_chance[0] = 3 ?
10:35<Samu>3 <= v->breakdown_chance
10:35<EarthlingKira>0xffff >> 10 = 63
10:35<Samu>63? meh, i fail at math
10:35<EarthlingKira>I mean 64
10:35<EarthlingKira>But it's 0-63
10:36<EarthlingKira>So yes 63 in that case :D
10:36<EarthlingKira>You probably did not deactivate hexadecimal mode when entering the value for rightshift into your calculator
10:36<Samu>or, right I was doing 0x10, not the real 10
10:36<EarthlingKira>@calc 65535 >> 10
10:36<@DorpsGek>EarthlingKira: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
10:37<Samu>_breakdown_chance[63] = 250
10:38<Samu>hmm ok, must investigate how is 'rel' calculated too
10:39<EarthlingKira>I think rel is simply 100% = 0xffff and 0% = 0x0000
10:39<EarthlingKira>It's the reliability
10:39<Samu>rel = v->reliability
10:39<Samu>if (v->type == VEH_SHIP) rel += 0x6666;
10:39<Samu>if (_settings_game.difficulty.vehicle_breakdowns == 1) rel += 0x6666;
10:40<Samu>I get it now
10:40<EarthlingKira>Cool :3
10:41<EarthlingKira>I don't like vanilla algorithm. I want to have less breakdowns but at the same time I want a train with 60% reliability to break more often than one with 100%
10:41<Samu>it then compares with itself without the added bonus, weird
10:42<Samu>ah nvm, im seeing this wrong
10:42<Samu>there's v->reliability and v->breakdown_chance, two different things
10:42<EarthlingKira>Yes :)
10:43<EarthlingKira>Even though the naming is... well... misleading
10:43<EarthlingKira>But with my patch the breakdown_chance actually acts like a real chance
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10:44<EarthlingKira>Personally the only thing I'd still like to add is (linearly) increased wear on vehicles based on current velocity
10:45<EarthlingKira>Because when you use that system and have a "go to depot" order and have trains with 600 km/h, you have virtually no more breakdowns
10:45<EarthlingKira>@Samu What's your opinion on that?
10:46<EarthlingKira>(This would also fulfil your wish to screw airplanes :3)
10:46<Samu>I'm still building, it's taking longer than I expected, think it's a bad time for testing this
10:47<Samu>must finish my AI tests first
10:48<Samu>i want a new cpu
10:49<Samu>something that lets me test 8 AIs in 8 4096x4096 maps while building openttd in visual studio
10:51<EarthlingKira>Ryzen Threadripper
10:56<Samu>yeah, i thought of that, but then intel did some price drops, so i'm currently undecided. also my current rig is still doing fine, except when i start testing crazy stuff
10:56<Samu>not sure if it's the right moment
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10:57<Samu>v->reliability is a uint16
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10:57<Samu>v->breakdown_chance is a byte
10:58<Samu>int chance = v->breakdown_chance;
10:59<Samu>i wonder if chance can sometimes be a negative value? :/ i fail at programming
11:00<EarthlingKira>An int can be negative if you cause it to be negative, yes ;-)
11:00<Samu>byte to int conversion
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11:01<EarthlingKira>No, an int has more bits than a byte
11:02<Samu>ah, so if v->breakdown_chance is 255 byte, int chance is 255 too, i see
11:02<Samu>Programmer expert here!
11:03<Samu>i wonder what's the priority of visual studio, seems like idling...
11:04<Samu>granted, I only got about ~5% cpu free
11:04<Samu>taking so long to build
11:06<Samu>(GB(r, 16, 8) <= v->breakdown_chance && GB(r, 16, 8) >= _breakdown_chance[(uint)min(rel, 0xffff) >> 10])
11:06<Samu>r = Random();
11:08<EarthlingKira>My patch combines the element of the vanilla algorithm that a minimum breakdown amount must have been accumulated and additionally applies some chance based on reliability to see if the vehicle should really breakdown
11:08<supermop>EarthlingKira: interesting passenger patch
11:09<Samu>the Random() is a biiig number
11:10<Samu>1111 1111 XXXX XXXX 1111 1111 1111 1111
11:11<Samu>you take those X
11:11<Samu>that's a value from 0 to 255, right?
11:11<EarthlingKira>@supermop Thanks :) I enjoy building PAX networks much more with that patch, small villages actually make a profit and big cities are no longer overloaded
11:12<EarthlingKira>@Samu Right, this GB() thingie is just used to get smaller random numbers
11:13<Samu>if the value is 0, it still breakdowns
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11:13<Samu>0 <= 0
11:14<Samu>&& 0 >= 3
11:14<Samu>nah, guess not
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11:15<supermop>the problem is made worse by the town zone pattern too -
11:17<supermop>as once a town gets very large, it is essentially primarily the densest zone by area, so the majority of houses are then producing the insane amount of passengers
11:17<EarthlingKira>Yes :) You should try playing with my patch, it's much better :3
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11:19<Samu>my patches are ugly coded, but I like the ideas they provide ;p
11:19<Samu>can u check some?
11:19<Samu>ah, in the forum i go by the name of xarick
11:21<Samu>ah, take a look at this one, it's messing with breakdowns, and probably needs better code in the breakdown code
11:24<EarthlingKira>Regarding code "quality" I'd say that it's not perfect that the aircraft specific code is mixed into the breakdown code which increases coupling ;-)
11:27<EarthlingKira>I'd be interested to write really really good code and do some refactorings and increase some game design mechanics, but for that I'd need to know that it is potentially wanted and could be merged into trunk
11:41<EarthlingKira>@Samu What exactly did you mean when you said check your patches? Do you want a rating, some improvement feedback, a code review or maybe even code improvements? ;-)
11:48<EarthlingKira>@supermop I've answered to your feedback, what do you think? :)
11:48<Samu>it has finally built! testing the breakdown patch
11:48<EarthlingKira>Are you testing with reduced breakdown rate or with normal breakdown rate setting?
11:49<Samu>testing with reduced atm
11:49<EarthlingKira>Okay :) I've tweaked it only for reduced setting :D
11:50<EarthlingKira>normal breakdown setting still has the reliability chance effect, but I've not tested/tweaked it with this setting
11:57<Samu>I got a trigger!
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11:57<Samu>54 <= 58 && 54 >= 48
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11:59<Samu>GB(r, 16, 8) what exactly is this doing? it's a bit confusing
12:00<Samu> r 406248016 unsigned int
12:00<Samu> rel 43763 int
12:01<Samu>sorry for noob question
12:02<Samu>it's randomly getting a value from 0 to 255
12:02<Samu>but... what's the intention
12:05<LordAro>"random" is probably the wrong word there
12:05<Samu>@calc 59/256
12:05<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.23046875
12:06<LordAro>GB is a very well used function, i'd recommend looking it up and working out what it's doing
12:06<Samu>r = Random();
12:06<Samu>so it's random, kinda
12:07<LordAro>ah right, i thought you were referring to GB
12:07<Samu>the pseudo-random number generator thing
12:10<Samu>i see that v->breakdown_chance can at times stay the same
12:10<Samu>chance =+1
12:10<Samu>is gone
12:12<Samu>it was previously always adding 1 to v->breakdown_chance every day
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12:13<Samu>I wonder... why do ships get special treatment :(
12:14<EarthlingKira>@Samu I didn't want to change too much
12:14<EarthlingKira>To differentiate from breakdown overhaul patches
12:17<Samu>what will happen when reliability is 0%
12:17<Samu>seems that reduced breakdowns will make them quite good, lol
12:17<Samu>brb testing
12:39<Samu>aha, it's finally starting to make sense for me
12:41<Samu>EarthlingKira: wouldn't it make better sense to have a 0% reliability with reduced breakdowns to behave equal as a 0% reliability with normal breakdowns?
12:43<Samu>just saying, in multiplayer servers, unmaintainced companies should have their old vehicles cannibalize the profits
12:47<Samu>alright, let's compare
12:48<Samu>1.7.2 - 30 breakdowns in 3 years, 0 months
12:48<Samu>patch - 30 breakdowns in 4 years, 3 months
12:48<Samu>reduced breakdowns
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12:51<EarthlingKira>@Samu That seems fair, doesm
12:51<EarthlingKira>doesn't it*
12:51<Samu>now i'm testing normal breakdowns, will take a while
12:52<Samu>i think so
12:53<Samu>from 100% to 0% reliability, it broke down 45 times, in 1.7.2
12:53<Samu>from 100% to 0% reliability, it broke down 24 times, in patched
12:54<Samu>waiting for 100 breakdowns
12:56<m3henry>I'm never sure how I feel about breakdowns
12:57<Samu>it feels too forgiving now
12:57<m3henry>Sometimes I feel like they add depth and make descions more interesting, but they become rather annoying when density rises
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12:58<m3henry>If rolling stock pooling was a thing, then I could see it being very interesting
13:00<Wolf01>frosch123, what do you think about drawing both the catenaries? Should we merge it to NRT?
13:03<Samu>1.7.2 - 100 breakdowns in 3 years, 8 months
13:03<Samu>patch - 100 breakdowns in 7 years, 7 months
13:03<Samu>normal breakdowns
13:04<Samu>i think 0% reliability needs special care
13:04<Samu>seems too forgiving now
13:05<andythenorth>breakdowns are tedious
13:05<andythenorth>I turn them off
13:05<andythenorth>even on, they're trivially prevented by forced-servicing
13:06<m3henry>I liked the idea of making breakdowns reduce the power output of engines when they happen
13:06<m3henry>There was a patch floating around that did that
13:06<m3henry>rather than a full stop
13:07<frosch123>Wolf01: go ahead
13:07<frosch123>makes it more visually clear
13:09<Samu>patch - 30 breakdowns in 2 years, 9 months, reduced breakdowns
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13:11<Samu>strange, i had the impression it was breaking down more often when the reliability was not yet 0%, but close to 0
13:12<Samu>how can I quantify this :(
13:12<Wolf01>I cleaned it up a bit, renamed functions too
13:14<Wolf01>Merge in progress
13:15<Wolf01>Cat is done, andythenorth should be happy
13:18<andythenorth>Wolf01: nice
13:19<andythenorth>now just town crap :)
13:19<Wolf01>And fixes
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13:19<andythenorth>Is there a proposed implementation for town?
13:19<andythenorth>there are a few ways it could be done
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13:21<andythenorth>- take ownership
13:21<andythenorth>- don't take ownership
13:21<andythenorth>- allow build if compatible with ROAD
13:21<andythenorth>- allow building any
13:22<Wolf01>Also there is default road for towns
13:24<Wolf01>I don't know what could happen if a grf disables standard road
13:32<Samu>[18:09] <Samu> patch - 30 breakdowns in 2 years, 9 months, reduced breakdowns*
13:32<Samu>i meant normal breakdowns, sorry
13:32<Samu>not reduced
13:33<EarthlingKira>> patch - 100 breakdowns in 7 years, 7 months
13:33<EarthlingKira>Was this with reduced breakdown setting or normal?
13:34<andythenorth>Wolf01: I could make a grf that tests disabling standard ROAD
13:34<andythenorth>not sure how right now
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13:38<Samu>that was with normal
13:38<Samu>i started a bus with 100% reliability, then removed depot
13:38<Samu>so, the majority of breakdowns was with 0% reliability
13:39<Samu>from 100% to 0% it broke down 24 times
13:40<Samu>let me time how long it takes to go from 100% to 0%, brb
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13:42<Samu>@calc 65535 / 80
13:42<@DorpsGek>Samu: 819.1875
13:42<Samu>meh, 819 days
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13:45<Samu>2 years, 4 months, i think
13:45<Samu>@calc 2 * 12 * 30 + 4 * 30
13:45<@DorpsGek>Samu: 840
13:45<Samu>yeah... seems to be that
13:53<supermop>Wolf01: presumable it would just fall back to whatever gets first defined then
13:54<supermop>like if you disable all default houses, and have your first house from 1950, 2nd in 1960, etc
13:55<supermop>you can still start a game in 1500, just all the houses will be the 1950 one (theater 'bug')
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13:58<Wolf01>I think it crashes or do weird things, cities expect a ROADTYPE_ROAD:SUBTYPE_NORMAL which is 0:0
13:58<Samu>holy crap, trAIns is upgrading from monorail to maglev, it's that time again, but he got 500 trains, crazy
13:59<Samu>upgrading one at a time is kinda slow
14:01<Samu>down to 6 trains, what a crazy amount if irresponsibility
14:09<supermop>Wolf01 i guess its a matter of making it more flexible in its expectations?
14:10<Wolf01>Yes, but I lack of ideas
14:10<supermop>or make it possible to redefine but not disable ROAD
14:10<supermop>it seems like road types could have a property "is town road"
14:10<Wolf01>The problem to redefine road is that you can make it incompatible with road
14:11<supermop>if =1 town builds it
14:11<supermop>if there are 16 that =1 maybe town still just builds the first, but any others so built will still get houses etc
14:12<Wolf01>Yes, that could be an idea, when a town is found it choses randomly between those =1 and builds that one for the rest of the game
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>i would propose that a town reruns that check regularly, and can pick a new roadtype to build once more get available
14:13<supermop>additionally the townroad value could be not binary, but 0-7 or 0-255
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, an automatic ranking, or grf author can provide one
14:14<supermop>and 0 = town doesn't building
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14:14<supermop>else, town builds either the lowest (or maybe highest) value available
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>town growth algorithm might want to replace existing roads with a new type
14:15<supermop>if two are equal it either picks at random or based on order in which defined
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>it should be deterministic
14:16<supermop>that's fine by me
14:17<supermop>author doesn't provide a value it gets 1 or whatever automatically
14:17<supermop>or gets the value of its place order in definition
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14:18<Rybeast>Hello! Sorry to be here again. Game failed to save - compressor initialisation failure - ideas?
14:19<Samu>which compressor?
14:20<Rybeast>It didn't say. JUst said game failed to save - compressor initialisation failure
14:21<Samu>hmm, does it have write access? :(
14:21<Samu>gonna check what causes that error
14:21<Rybeast>it's the only time it's failed to save at all :(
14:22<Rybeast>I've just force quit the game and re-opened, but it says the save file has an error? 'Lilbizma returned error code'
14:22<Borg>% git grep -E '.*init.*failure.*'
14:23<Borg>I dont see such an error
14:23<andythenorth>how about authors just don't disable ROAD?
14:23<andythenorth>unless it's intended
14:23<andythenorth>no guards, no checks
14:23<andythenorth>I can 'break' all industries if I want
14:23<andythenorth>nothing in spec stops m
14:24<Rybeast>It ran until 2040 if that is worth anything?
14:24<Samu>okay it failed to initialize lzma, that's something
14:24<Samu>doo bee doo, brb
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14:24<andythenorth>unix not lisp
14:25<Samu>if (lzma_easy_encoder(&this->lzma, compression_level, LZMA_CHECK_CRC32) != LZMA_OK) SlError(STR_GAME_SAVELOAD_ERROR_BROKEN_INTERNAL_ERROR, "cannot initialize compressor");
14:26<frosch123>if no ROAD, towns cannot build road, game does not start
14:26<frosch123>same as when no houses are available
14:26<Rybeast>What would have caused it to fail though? AS I say, it's been working the whole way
14:27<supermop>frosch123 that works, but maybe its more fun to have alternatives to road?
14:27<Samu>seems that during compression, something got corrupted?
14:27<Samu>du u have ram issues or ?
14:27<Rybeast>don't think so?
14:28<frosch123>supermop: a different appearance is still ROAD
14:29<Samu>I wish which error it got :(
14:29<Samu>it wasn't the LZMA_OK
14:29<andythenorth>loading a grf without ROAD is a bug
14:30<Samu>LZMA_MEM_ERROR ?
14:30<andythenorth>bug / user error /s
14:30<Samu>meh, all i know is that it was not the LZMA_OK, it was one of those 3
14:31<Samu>those 4
14:31<Samu>- LZMA_MEM_ERROR: Memory allocation failed. I suspect it was this
14:31<Samu>buy moar ram
14:32<Samu>run 64-bit of openttd, etc. lol
14:32<Rybeast>it's a brand new MacBook
14:32<Rybeast>only 16 months old
14:32<Samu>oh, i don't have a mac, i guess it could be something else
14:33<Rybeast>:( Got to 2040 and built some amazing lines :/
14:35<andythenorth>supermop: CC is a good idea
14:36<Samu>LZMA_OK: Initialization succeeded. Use lzma_code() to * encode your data.
14:36<Samu>LZMA_MEM_ERROR: Memory allocation failed.
14:36<Samu>LZMA_OPTIONS_ERROR: The given compression preset is not * supported by this build of liblzma.
14:36<Samu>unlikely to be this one
14:36<Samu>LZMA_UNSUPPORTED_CHECK: The given check type is not * supported by this liblzma build.
14:36<Samu>also unlikely, it's using LZMA_CHECK_CRC32
14:36<LordAro>Samu: say something useful instead of listing the enumeration values
14:37<Samu>LZMA_PROG_ERROR: One or more of the parameters have values * that will never be valid. For example, strm == NULL.
14:37<Samu>meh, ok LordAro
14:37<Samu>i doubt the stream was null
14:37<Samu>so hmm...
14:38<Rybeast>it's fine I guess. No way I'm going to get the level back, is there?
14:39<LordAro>autosave is usually enabled by default...
14:39<Samu>it failed to compress
14:40<Rybeast>I've looked at the autosave folder - nothing there exept for the same error
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14:40<Samu>maybe lzma for mac is bad? bad library or so? I dunno
14:41<Samu>i dont have a mac to test :( can't help
14:41<Samu>can u open openttd.cfg file
14:41<Samu>seee which savegame_format u got there
14:43<Samu>[misc] savegame_format =
14:43<Samu>if lzma faisl, try zlib
14:43<Samu>savegame_format = zlib
14:43<Samu>like that
14:43<supermop>andythenorth little stripes or signs in cc could easily and discretely tell you who owns the wires, and the way the cc is drawn could help show what type of wires they are
14:43<LordAro>pretty sure you can't change that setting while the game is running
14:43<andythenorth>occasionally LZMA stops working on the mac, in official binaries
14:44<andythenorth>then saves stop
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>if only there were a mac maintainer that could look at that kind of issues
14:44<Rybeast>it's back
14:44<andythenorth>and if you don't notice quick enough, all autosaves are corrupt
14:44<Rybeast>one of the autosaves has it all back
14:44<andythenorth>and screen drawing is borked, black squares everywhere
14:44<andythenorth>doesn't happen in self-compiled builds, or at least not to me
14:45<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, someone with a mac, and familiar with the ottd source
14:45<andythenorth>it happens to my kids games
14:45<LordAro>who could that be
14:45<andythenorth>fonso has a mac
14:46<andythenorth>and peter had one but it broke
14:52<Samu>trAIns is still upgrading rails
14:52<Samu>so slow :(
14:53<EarthlingKira>@Samu so, do you think that breakdowns are fine for high reliability ratings but should happen more often for low reliability ratings?
14:54<Samu>hmm, didn't really test the first part
14:55<Samu>gonna load some old saves I got here
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14:55<Samu>run them for 1 year
14:55<Samu>and compare with 1 year of 1.7.2 for the same savegame
14:56<Samu>ugh, i need to build again, this is gonna take a while again
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15:04<Samu>oho, it built already, this was faster now
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15:12<Samu>i think i need to give it more time, 1 year isn't enough
15:19<Samu>top is with your patch, bottom is with 1.7.2
15:20<Samu>reduced breakdowns on both
15:20<Samu>it's almost unnnoticeable
15:21<Samu>the impact of your patch seems like none
15:21<Samu>breakdowns were off before 2051
15:22<Samu>turned them on in 1st jan 2051, tons of aircraft went for autorenew, they were old
15:23<Samu>no breakdowns vs reduced breakdowns, and the graph seems about equal to what it was before 2051
15:23<Samu>after stabilizinh
15:23<Samu>now gonna test with normal breakdowns, brb
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15:39<Samu>for sake of completeness, gonna test without breakdowns :p
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15:54<Samu>first 2, reduced breakdowns, patch vs 1.7.2
15:55<Samu>middle 2, normal breakdowns, patch vs 1.7.2
15:55<Samu>last 2, no breakdowns, patch vs 1.7.2
15:57<supermop>who wants to add stations to nml so I can update mlss?
15:59<andythenorth>GN even
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16:00<Samu>may have to test other vehicle types, too
16:00<Samu>having dinner atm, afk
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16:52<Samu>for road vehicles
17:04<EarthlingKira>Thanks for the data and testings!
17:04<EarthlingKira>You only compare the profit, right?
17:05<EarthlingKira>I think breakdowns are most noticable when looking at profits when you do have really busy train tracks
17:05<EarthlingKira>Otherwise their impact on profit is low (with and without my patch)
17:07<EarthlingKira>I'd guess that AI doesn't build routes which are nearly as busy as routes built by humans
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17:27<Samu>i wanted to try put this data in excel to create a graph
17:28<Samu>a reliability of 65535 is the same as 100%
17:29<Samu>every day CheckBreakdown is called, and 80 reliability is lost
17:29<Samu>Chance16I(1, 8, r)
17:30<Samu>wtf this do?
17:30<Samu>road vehicles service interval is a default of 150 days
17:30<Samu>@calc 150 * 80
17:30<@DorpsGek>Samu: 12000
17:33<Samu>return (((uint16)r * b + b / 2) >> 16) < a;
17:33<Samu>static inline bool Chance16I(const uint a, const uint b, const uint32 r)
17:38<Samu>@calc (0xffff * 8 + 8 / 2) / (2**16)
17:38<@DorpsGek>Samu: 7.99993896484
17:40<Samu>7 < 1
17:41<Samu>@calc (0*8+8/2)/(2**16)
17:41<@DorpsGek>Samu: 6.103515625e-05
17:42<Samu>english plz
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17:52<Samu>@calc 8191/65535
17:52<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.124986648356
17:52<Samu>@calc 8192/65536
17:52<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.125
17:53<Samu>@calc 1/8
17:53<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.125
17:59<Samu>once every 8 times, add 4 to chance
17:59<Samu>8 times in this case, 8 days
18:01<Samu>@calc 150 * (1/8)
18:01<@DorpsGek>Samu: 18.75
18:02<Samu>@calc 150 * 4 * (1/8)
18:02<@DorpsGek>Samu: 75
18:02<Samu>@calc 150 * 4 * (1/25) + 150
18:02<@DorpsGek>Samu: 174
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18:38<Samu>i hate math
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18:50<Rybeast>Hello! I'm back to annoy again. Is it possible to auto-replace for the same vehicle? I'm wanting to replace my Chimeras on the Maglev, but it doesn't seem to let me choose another... I wouldn't mind doing manually, but I'd feel a bit meh by having to do that!
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18:54<ST2>Rybeast: what year you're on? if too advanced, maybe that's the only train available
18:55<ST2>if not using breakdowns, makes no sense replace with same vehicle, even if getting old
18:56<ST2>to replace vehicles, there's a diff setting for that
18:56<ST2>hope it helps ^^
18:57<Rybeast>I'm able to buy the vehicles still, but I'm playing with breakdowns
18:57<Rybeast>what's the setting to replace like with like?
18:58<Alkel_U3>Autorenew in settings
18:58<ST2> <<-- this 2 close to pointer
19:00<Rybeast>thank you
19:01<ST2>yw, if it helped, ofc :)
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19:07<Rybeast>it kinda did. Just watched some trains go into their depot and nothing happened :')
19:07<ST2>old ones?
19:07<ST2>and you're inside cash balance? link above, close to pointer too
19:10<Samu>are they old enough :p
19:10<Rybeast>how old is old enough?
19:13<Samu>24 (25) or 25 (25)
19:13<Samu>in vehicle details
19:14<Rybeast>fml ha
19:14<Rybeast>so long away
19:14<Samu>i prefer 12 months before maximum age
19:15<Rybeast>I've set it up for a year beforehand
19:15<Rybeast>I'm currently at 20% on 60yrs old... Gotta get to 79 :(
19:16<Samu>20% on 60yrs old? what the heck?
19:16<Samu>your engines last 79 years?
19:17<Rybeast>it's one of the japanese maglev trains
19:17<Rybeast>it says: Age 40 (80)
19:18<Samu>it only gets old at 79 then lol
19:20<ST2>yeah Rybeast, so vehicles aren't old... yet xD
19:24<Rybeast>pfft :(
19:24<Rybeast>as I say. 25% :/
19:24<Rybeast>I'm gonna watch some YouTube vids and head to bed, thanks for your help!
19:24<Rybeast>Anyone any idea how I find out what my username is for the forums?
19:24<ST2>note: how frequently they visit a depot?
19:25<Rybeast>it's in the service paths and the reliability and number of days is set high/low
19:25<ST2>[00:24:56] <Rybeast> Anyone any idea how I find out what my username is for the forums? <<-- whatelse that yourself ^^
19:26<Alkel_U3>the model can get prematurely obsolete although I'm not familiar with this set. If you buy a new vehicle, is it reliable?
19:27<ST2>but I would suggest the Thread of that newgrf (forums)
19:27<Rybeast>I can't get onto the forums to ask - I don't remember my username
19:27<Rybeast>I'll buy another train and see if the reliability is better
19:27<ST2>Rybeast: you started making questions here without stating all the facts
19:28<ST2>that lead us to some goose chases
19:29<Rybeast>What facts would you have liked beforehand?
19:29<ST2>newgrf's used, client version, etc etc
19:29<ST2>all those
19:29<Rybeast>I shall bear that in mind for next time.
19:30<ST2>thank you :)
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19:33<ST2>another question Rybeast: was that on SP or a MP game? (Single Player | Multi Player)
19:34<ST2>check pages of the newgrf's used
19:34<ST2>if something wrong with it, that's the place to post
19:35<ST2>but from what I've seen, (40/80) aren't old
19:35<Rybeast>I don't know my username :( I must have signed up years ago, but I can't remember what it is. The reset password feature needs bother username and email address so I'm a little stumped!
19:36<ST2>know at leats the email used?
19:37<ST2>and not the username?! kinda weird ^^
19:37<ST2>well... keep trying ^^
19:38<Rybeast>I've got lots of usernames
19:38<Rybeast>didn't even remember openTTD untile the other day
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19:38<Rybeast>but thanks. Thought there was going to be a miracle way to find it out
19:38<Rybeast>thanks anyway
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 14 00:00:48 2018