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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-01-15

---Logopened Mon Jan 15 00:00:49 2018
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01:06-!-chomwitt is "chomwitt" on #debian #debian-games
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04:11<stefino>hi guys...if I'm making foundations slopes, why are tiles under the buildings fixed at my new walls? When I want to move with wall I move with tile too. Yes I can choose tile and move it back but this changes its offsets. Thanks
04:16<peter1138>Er, what?
04:21<stefino>some tiles are OK, some tiles were moved when I change wall offsets
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05:49<peter1138>Ah you are making graphics.
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06:02<stefino>yep...I know where the problem is now. It is about ingame engine. Slopes are joined with tiles.
06:13<peter1138>Sorry I don't remember the specifics. Been about 10 years since I looked at that stuff.
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07:15<Samu>where is earthkira dude? :(
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07:29<Samu>@seen EarthlingKira
07:29<@DorpsGek>Samu: EarthlingKira was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 14 hours, 21 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: <EarthlingKira> I'd guess that AI doesn't build routes which are nearly as busy as routes built by humans
07:33<Samu>some AIs do
07:37<Samu>v->breakdown_chance doesn't decrease if the vehicle is stopped, only v->reliability
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09:38<Samu>2 RoadRunner v12 - bankrupt 01-1986
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10:27<Samu>where is the breakdown guy?
10:27<supermop>probably out enjoying his life
10:27<supermop>or at work
10:28<supermop>not every office lets their employees sit on IRC all day
10:28<supermop>nor does every employee work in an office
10:28<supermop>pretty hard to check IRC if you are working on a factory floor or in a shop
10:34<Samu>his code makes it so that it takes longer, on average, to breakdown, the lower the v->reliability
10:35<Samu>wish i could graph these results
10:40<Samu>it gives me that impression, but i can't show proof :(
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10:52<Samu>@calc 1/256
10:52<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.00390625
10:53<Samu>@calc (1*30)/256 * (1 + 1/25) * 30
10:53<@DorpsGek>Samu: 3.65625
10:54<Samu>uh... can't be
10:54<Samu>i fail
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10:57<Samu>everyday, the chance is increased by 1 plus a 1/25 chance to add 25
10:57<Samu>@calc 1 + 1/25
10:57<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.04
10:58<Samu>average of 1.04 per day
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10:58-!-Snail is "Jacopo Coletto" on #openttd
10:59<Samu>also, everyday a random number from 0 to 255 is rolled
11:00<Samu>"random number from 0 to 255" <= "1.04 per day on average"
11:01<Samu>how do I graph this?
11:06<Samu>day 1: 0-255 <= 1.04 : what are the chances that a random number from 0 to 255 is less or equal than 1.04
11:07<Samu>day 10: 0-255 <= 10.4 : what are the chances that a random number from 0 to 255 is less of equal than 10.4
11:08<Samu>presuming it didn't broke down on the previous 9 days
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11:13<Samu>3 DictatorAI v183 - bankrupt 11-1990
11:14-!-chomwitt is "chomwitt" on #debian #debian-games
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11:15<Samu>what are the chances to breakdown on the 1st day
11:15<Samu>what are the chances to breakdown on the 10th day
11:15<Samu>what are the chances to breakdown on the nth day
11:22<Samu>day 1: (256-1.04)/256
11:22<Samu>@calc (256-1.04)/256
11:22<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.9959375
11:23<Samu>@calc (1+1.04)/256
11:23<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.00796875
11:24<Samu>@calc 1-(256-1.04)/256
11:24<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.0040625
11:28<Samu>day 2: (256-1.04)/256 * (1 - (256-2.08)/256)
11:28<Samu>@calc (256-1.04)/256 * (1 - (256-2.08)/256)
11:28<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.0080919921875
11:29<Samu>@calc (256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256
11:29<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.987845507813
11:32<Samu>@calc 1-((256-1.04)/256) * ((256-2.08)/256)
11:32<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.0121544921875
11:48<Samu>day 3: (256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256 * (1-(256-3.12)/256)
11:48<Samu>@calc (256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256 * (1-(256-3.12)/256)
11:48<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.0120393671265
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11:50<Samu>@calc (256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256 * (256-3.12)/256
11:50<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.975806140686
11:51<Samu>@calc 1-(256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256 * (256-3.12)/256
11:51<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.024193859314
11:55<Samu>1 MailAI v21 - bankrupt 11-1990
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12:04<Samu>i can't figure this out
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12:14<Samu>@calc 3/4
12:14<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.75
12:15<Samu>@calc 1-3/4
12:15<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.25
12:16<Samu>@calc (3/4)*(2/4)
12:16<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.375
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12:17<Samu>grrr, why is this so complicated to undesrtand
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12:17<Samu>@calc 4/5
12:17<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.8
12:17<Samu>@ calc 1-4/5
12:17<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.2
12:18<Samu>@calc (4/5)*(3/5)
12:18<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.48
12:19<Samu>@calc (4/5)*(1-(3/5))
12:19<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.32
12:19<Samu>@calc 1-(4/5)*(3/5)
12:19<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.52
12:24<Samu>@calc 1/5
12:24<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.2
12:25<Samu>@calc 1-1/5
12:25<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.8
12:25<Samu>@calc (1/5)*(2/5)
12:25<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.08
12:27<Samu>@calc (1-1/5)*(2/5)
12:27<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.32
12:27<Samu>@calc (1-1/5)*(1-2/5)
12:27<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.48
12:29<Samu>i give up
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12:29-!-Alberth is "purple" on @#openttd
12:29<Samu>are you a probability expert
12:33<Samu>the cranberries singer died today....
12:38<Samu>help me Alberth. probability to breakdown on first day: (256-1.04)/256
12:38<Samu>what would be the probability to breakdown on the second day if it didn't breakdown on the first day?
12:39<Samu>actually, that the probability not to breakdown on first day, my bad
12:40<@Alberth>P(not at day 1) * P(at day 2)
12:41<Samu>probability to breakdown on first day: 1-(256-1.04)/256
12:41<Samu>probability not to breakdown on first day: (256-1.04)/256
12:42<Samu>probability to breakdown on second day: (256-1.04)/256 * (1-(256-2.08)/256)
12:43<Samu>and for the 3rd day how would it be?
12:43<@Alberth> is the generic form
12:43<@Alberth>P(not at day 1) * P(not at day 2) * P(at day 3)
12:45<Samu>probability not to breakdown on second day: ((256-1.04)/256) * ((256-2.08)/256)
12:46<Samu>hmm, and here's where things confuse me :(
12:48<Samu>probability to breakdown on third day: (256-1.04)/256 * ((256-1.04)/256) * ((256-2.08)/256) * (1-(256-3.12)/256)
12:48<Samu>is this correct?
12:49<@Alberth>no idea at all
12:54<Samu>probability not to breakdown on second day: (256-2.08)/256
12:55<Samu>probability to breakdown on third day: (256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256 * (1-(256-3.12)/256)
12:56<Samu>one of these is wrong, I dunno which one
12:58<Samu>8 Convoy v11 - bankrupt 01-2000
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13:21<Samu>@calc 1-(256-1.04)/256
13:21<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.0040625
13:21<Samu>@calc (256-1.04)/256
13:21<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.9959375
13:22<Samu>@calc (256-1.04)/256 * (1-(256-2.08)/256)
13:22<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.0080919921875
13:22<Samu>@calc ((256-1.04)/256) * ((256-2.08)/256)
13:22<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.987845507813
13:23<Samu>@calc (256-1.04)/256 * ((256-1.04)/256) * ((256-2.08)/256) * (1-(256-3.12)/256)
13:23<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.0119904571975
13:23<Samu>@calc (256-2.08)/256
13:23<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.991875
13:23<Wolf01>Do you really need to use the chat like an excel sheet?
13:23<Samu>@calc (256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256 * (1-(256-3.12)/256)
13:23<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.0120393671265
13:24<Borg>use bc or dc
13:28<Samu>2 TeshiNet v4 - bankrupt 08-2000
13:28<Samu>all from server 2 bankrupted
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13:35<Borg>Samu: bc - An arbitrary precision calculator language
13:37<Borg>Alberth: hola nacho!
13:38<@Alberth>bc(1) would have been a little too cryptic :p
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13:54<@Alberth>more o/
13:55<Wolf01>That looks too much nazi :(
13:56<Wolf01>o/\o o/ better
13:56<Wolf01>Also RIP Dolores O'Riordan :(
13:56<@Alberth>much so, indeed
13:59<andythenorth>she didn't let it linger
14:09<Samu>1 AIAI v97 - bankrupt 11-2003
14:09<Samu>13 AIs remain
14:11<Wolf01>And then the player tried to purchase a ship... but canals disappeared from the game!
14:12<Wolf01>(short horror story)
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14:13<Samu>I expect everyone to bankrupt
14:13<Samu>how long does it take for inflation to reach its max?
14:19<@Alberth>170 * 13.something minutes
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14:29<supermop_work>andythenorth: i might release new spool tonight
14:29<supermop_work>if cc is now in nrt
14:30<andythenorth>did I push>?
14:30<andythenorth>looks like it
14:31<supermop_work>im unsure how i want to draw the wires at the end of line loops
14:31<supermop_work>having them make the tight U looks a little odd
14:31<Wolf01>Put them like a V
14:32<Wolf01>With a pole in the middle
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14:32<supermop_work>Wolf01: that would be realistic in many cases, but when tramway ends but road continues, the pole will be in the middle of the road
14:33<V453000>POLE IN THE MIDDLE?
14:33<Wolf01>Put them like a slug
14:33<V453000>I'm going to put a pole in your middle!
14:33<@Alberth>\|/ ?
14:33<__ln__>do we even have any regular poles on the channel anymore
14:33<__ln__>@seen MeusH
14:33<@DorpsGek>__ln__: I have not seen MeusH.
14:34<supermop_work>and NRT doesn't let you give poles a bounding box or position, so it wont draw as 'between' the RVs in the two lanes
14:34<@Alberth>just the North and South pole, I think
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14:48<Samu>the day with the highest chance to breakdown is the 16th
14:50<Samu>this is with Kira's patch
14:50<Samu>i dunno, maybe i'm missing something in it
14:51<Samu>it is assuming 0% reliability
14:51<Samu>normal breakdowns
14:51<Samu>and not a ship
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15:07<Samu>1 CPU v5 - bankrupt 05-2008
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15:07<Samu>12 AIs remaining
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15:09<andythenorth>anyone got FIRS translations?
15:09<andythenorth>might as well release...again
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15:19<andythenorth>Wolf01: what's next?
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15:21<supermop_work_>andythenorth: greeble on poles
15:21<supermop_work_>greeble on everything
15:22<supermop_work_>greeble on greeble
15:31<Samu>strange, Rondje is no longer restarting its routes
15:31<Samu>sold everything
15:33<andythenorth>rise of the machines
15:33<andythenorth>Wolf01: Monday bad for code eh?
15:34<Wolf01>Bad for everything
15:34<Wolf01>Headache, low bandwidth...
15:35<andythenorth>woe is jenkins
15:35<frosch123>we need someone who knows ngynx :)
15:36<andythenorth>self-maintained things scare me :)
15:36<andythenorth>but when it works, it works
15:36<andythenorth>so eh
15:37<LordAro>frosch123: sup
15:38<frosch123>was it just me, or was c++17 released silently in december?
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15:44<andythenorth>santa c++
15:46<LordAro>frosch123: marginally silently
15:47<andythenorth>does a FIRS ever get done? o_O
15:47<andythenorth>or do I just keep refining until I die?
15:49<frosch123>maybe you turn away disgusted after doing the oil&dates economy
15:58<V453000>frosch123: nerf bots ?:)
15:58<frosch123>V453000: twinsen always has my opinion
15:58<V453000>always is a strong word :)
15:59<V453000>I'm just curious what you think on the subject
15:59<frosch123>i only use logistic rebots for character transport, other usages were as boring as ottd planes after the first game
16:00<frosch123>so i never did it again
16:00<frosch123>even if you nerve them i would not use them
16:00<V453000>but the megabase builders are so attach to them :0
16:00<frosch123>so, i do not care :)
16:00<V453000>I kind of expected that, but then it's not great to have the game require you to realize that it's a dumb feature :D
16:01<frosch123>well, i think there is only one achievement "no logistics"
16:01<frosch123>is there some other kind of scoring?
16:01<V453000>well usually people rate their factory by amount of science packs produced per minute
16:02<V453000>the big base builders that is
16:02<frosch123>yes, i also used that metric
16:02<frosch123>but more as a benchmark when to stop
16:02<V453000>:D :D
16:03<V453000>well the thing is that they are trying to reach as much SPM as possible, currently 4000 seems to be the max for 60UPS
16:03<V453000>and they do it with robots, any smallest nerf of robots makes them mega triggered
16:04<V453000>they don't even care that the game is about building many things, they just want to see the number
16:04<frosch123>anyway, from last fff, the option "increase charging time to only affect requesters, but not player" sounded most reasonable
16:05<frosch123>V453000: yes, that's where ottd fails :p we cannot change anything
16:05<V453000>I think reducing the cargo size limit would actually be more interesting, possibly even making the charging faster
16:05<V453000>because currently the charging gets annoying really quickly
16:05<andythenorth>frosch123: a fork could change things :P
16:06<frosch123>V453000: or add collisions :p
16:06<V453000>yeah that's not going to happen :D
16:06<frosch123>flying biters who eat them
16:06<frosch123>degrade solar power when the robots darken the sky
16:07<frosch123>V453000: anyway, i do not like the "reduce cargo size"
16:08<frosch123>the thing with only using them for player transport is that you need a very limited amount of them
16:08<V453000>my suggestion is basically making belts as convenient to use a possible with some things like upgrade/replace planner (basically deconstruction planner which issues replacement), power armor equipment which stops belts from moving the player character, changing beacon formula so that the more beacons you add, the more beacon efficiency decreases so that making 1-4 beacon layouts is quite close to optimal setup too, and moving the express bel
16:08<frosch123>i never can decide whether to automate that or handcraft them
16:08<V453000>but giving express belt more speed
16:08<frosch123>handcrafting is easier if you only need like 50
16:08<V453000>fair point
16:09<V453000>well the current attempts are reducing charging like 4 times while doubling the battery capacity, so it makes them charge like 8 times longer if they deplete completely
16:10<frosch123>hmm, i really like belts moving the character
16:10<frosch123>also, beacons are another thing i never use :p
16:11<V453000>it's a nice detail early, but late when you have belts basically everywhere, it becomes really frustrating when you missclick when building more belts all the time
16:11<V453000>especially now when you can replace the splitter/UGbelt with a normal belt
16:11<frosch123>true, misclicks got more annoying since they can remove splitters and tunnels :p
16:12<frosch123>oh, you said the same :)
16:13<andythenorth>I gave up on F because of the belts
16:13<andythenorth>I couldn't understand them
16:15<frosch123>well, solar power is the problem
16:15<frosch123>robots cost only electricity
16:15<frosch123>they use would be limited if they would require more energy than the coal they are transporting would give
16:16<frosch123>but nuclear is already pretty effective, and solar is infinite
16:16<frosch123>V453000: maybe robots could eat repair packs?
16:17<frosch123>something which is not as free as energy
16:20<frosch123>or fuel like trains
16:23<V453000>having them consume Something is an idea I read multiple times already and I'm not sure what do I think
16:24<V453000>you are definitely right that infinite non-UPS affecting solar just makes energy irrelevant
16:24<V453000>nuclear is good but megabases don't even use it because solar panels calculate all as 1 entity as they share the same state, so ... :)
16:24<V453000>can't optimize vs that
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16:29<V453000>I'll think further about the repair pack consumption
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16:30<V453000>thing is I'm not sure if that really makes them more interesting and what exactly happens when they are out of repair packs
16:30<V453000>they'd get slow like if they had no battery I guess
16:30<Gustavo6046>why is the latest OpenTTD not in apt?
16:30<frosch123>V453000: sit silent inside the robotport
16:31<V453000>well the thing is you can still let robots deliver the service packs to the roboport :P
16:31<frosch123>ah, so want to make them recover themself
16:31<frosch123>i thought everything would stop and you would at least have to deliver the repair packs to the ports via belts :p
16:32<V453000>well yeah that's in theory but once it starts running and they always deliver enough new service packs to the roboport's requester ... :)
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16:32<frosch123>well, possibly annoying for ports far aways from the center of the base
16:33<V453000>well you can always just blueprint service pack makers all over the place and deliver everything from/to them by more robots ._.
16:33<V453000>is the thing
16:33<V453000>they are the logical answer to everything
16:34<frosch123>no, i was thinking about the less extreme case
16:34<V453000>which one? :)
16:34<frosch123>like when a casual gamer just wants a few robots for fun
16:34<frosch123>and everything breaks down because you temporarily run out of packs
16:34<frosch123>and it does not automatically resume or something
16:35<frosch123>like when you run out of train fuel, and you do not notice, and then have to collect the broken down trains from all around the network
16:35<V453000>well yeah like a burner power system capable of blackout
16:35<frosch123>but ok, i see, that case also exists for trains :)
16:36<V453000>it's a tough topic :)
16:36<V453000>and just adding a service pack price to running them would keep the throughput potential anyway
16:38<Gustavo6046>I can't install OpenTTD's .deb package using apt-get because it can't find libicu52 on the repostiory!
16:38<frosch123>but at a way higher cost
16:38<Gustavo6046>I have to download it manually.
16:38<V453000>I guess :)
16:38<Gustavo6046>But I shouldn't have to download all the dependencies it doesn't find by hand!
16:38<frosch123>what would be the impact if a rocket would cost 10% more iron, just because you transport everything by robot?
16:39<frosch123>Gustavo6046: use the generic binary, it links icu statically, all the .deb are too old
16:39<V453000>hm, yeah, like an anti-productivity module :D
16:39<Gustavo6046>frosch123, what is that?
16:39<Gustavo6046>there is no 'generic' package
16:40<frosch123>there is a generic linux package
16:40<V453000>what seems weird is that nothing else is being upkept in the game :)
16:40<frosch123>V453000: trains use fuel
16:40<Gustavo6046>where do I find that
16:40<V453000>fuel = energy = electricity
16:41<V453000>service pack feels different
16:41<V453000>yet makes sense
16:41<Gustavo6046>is it this zip thing?
16:41<Gustavo6046>that is just a copy of the game
16:42<Gustavo6046>I don't have an idea what you mean, frosch123
16:42<Gustavo6046>that is just a copy of the game
16:42<frosch123>V453000: argueably, building more solar panels also just costs copper
16:42<Gustavo6046>I already have it but I want to install a newer version of it
16:42<Gustavo6046>because in apt the latest version is 1.5.2
16:42<V453000>solar panels are broken AF
16:42<frosch123>Gustavo6046: so, unpack the tar.gz and run the binary which is inside
16:43<Gustavo6046>unpack it where?
16:43<V453000>and now they are also annoying to stamp due to cliffs :D you have to find a non-cliffy area for your farm
16:43<frosch123>Gustavo6046: doesn't matter, your home folder?
16:43<Gustavo6046>I must unpack it where the old OpenTTD installation is
16:43<Gustavo6046>it was made by apt
16:43<frosch123>V453000: i must have had bad luck, almost no cliffs on my map
16:43<V453000>the randomness noise has a giant scale
16:44<V453000>it's entirely possible to get a map without -thing-
16:44<frosch123>Gustavo6046: i can't help you fight the problems you invent yourself
16:44<V453000>it's one of the things being looked at for 0.17
16:44<Gustavo6046>I did not invent it
16:45<Gustavo6046>apt-get's version of OpenTTD is 1.5.2 but it's too old for this server I'm trying to join
16:45<frosch123>you want to pack it where the old version was, but there is zero need for that, just have both
16:45<Gustavo6046>but I don't want to install OpenGFX etc again
16:45<Gustavo6046>(yes I'm that lazy)
16:45<frosch123>also no need for that
16:45<frosch123>they can share the data files
16:45<Gustavo6046>ugh whatever
16:46<Gustavo6046>they can share?
16:46<Gustavo6046>is that another tedious proceeding?
16:46<frosch123>just unpack the .tar.gz in your home folder, start the binary, and find everything you had before
16:47<Samu>6 gelignAIte v1 - bankrupt 11-2011
16:47<V453000>well thank you for your input frosch123 :) I'll think about it
16:47<frosch123>maybe "find" is the wrong word, i meant to say, it just works
16:48<frosch123>V453000: you're welcome, also blame twinsen
16:48<V453000>we do that every day :P
16:49<frosch123>also i expect 4 authors for "bots vers belts (part 3)" :p
16:50<V453000>there will hopefully not be any, or at least lengthy part3 :)
16:50<frosch123>i wonder when you run out of staff that way
16:51<Gustavo6046>okay then
16:51<V453000>good night, thanks :)
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17:56<Samu>5 NoNoCAB v5 - bankrupt 11-2020
17:56<Samu>10 AIs remain
17:57<Samu>did anyone really test infrastructure maintenance costs with inflation?
17:58<Samu>the costs are absurd!
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18:02<Samu>all the current AIs that have vehicles are unable to make a profit
18:02<Samu>they're living with what they had in the reserves
18:03<Samu>sooner or later, they will start loaning, they won't last
18:03<Samu>everyone will bankrupt
18:06<Samu>7 CluelessPlus v38 - bankrupt 08-2021
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---Logclosed Tue Jan 16 00:00:51 2018