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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-01-20

---Logopened Sat Jan 20 00:00:56 2018
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04:09<@Alberth>o/
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04:30<Wolf01>Moin
04:30<@Alberth>moin
04:31<Wolf01>So, it looks like I'm unalbe to solve even the simplest shunting puzzle :(
04:31<Wolf01>Also unable to type
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04:32<Wolf01>Meow
04:38<andythenorth>hi
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04:47<@Alberth>write a program to solve it :p
04:47<Wolf01>Nah, it's more funny to drive the shunter manually
04:57<@Alberth>fair enough :)
04:58<@Alberth>when I program a solver, I usually get a deeper understanding of the puzzle, and what I missed in solving it manually.
04:58<@Alberth>However, it does kill the fun in solving it manually.
04:59<Wolf01>Like my "lights out" solver, it logs moves you do and then deletes what you did duplicate to reduce the number of moves to show you the perfect solution :D
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05:03<Wolf01>Oh, finally I managed to rotate an entire consist
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05:07<@Alberth>try long enough and you will succeed :)
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06:05<Wolf01>Yay, I did it|
06:05<Wolf01>!
06:05<Wolf01>Now I only need to add the rules to the route
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06:23<Borg>did what?
06:23<Wolf01>Shunting puzzle
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07:28<Wolf01>Mmmh ===T=1======>======2=T===, (1 and 2 are trains, T are triggers, > is junction), I start with 2 trains heading to the junction and need to make them overtake so they can continue, the junction only has space for 1 wagon, the problem with the triggers are that if I make the trains visit the left one by reversing 1 and moving forward 2, the right one one by reversing 2 and moving forawrd
07:28<Wolf01>1 I win the puzzle XD
07:30<Wolf01>I should remove points if I find trains pass the triggers in reverse
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08:24<Samu>hello
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08:25<@Alberth>hola
08:27<frosch123>moi
08:30<Wolf01>Bye, D&D session
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08:34<Samu>do you know why DictatorAI log appears to handle trains, but never builds any?
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09:24<supermop>yo
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09:37<Samu>wow
09:37<Samu>DictatorAI has a bad use of terraform
09:38<Samu>terraforms on open water
09:39<Samu>blocks his own ships
09:41<Samu>Lazy profile is doing better than opportunist and dictator
09:42<Samu>sounds wrong
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10:12<Samu>okay, dictator is now ahead of lazy profile
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11:07<Samu>dictatorai wastes most of the time trying to upgrade airports
11:07<Samu>only to fail
11:07<Samu>then repeats shortly after
11:26<Samu>was this a bad patch? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=77246
11:26<Samu>I wanted to hear some opinions
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12:06<@Alberth>title doesn't come close to covering the changes that you make?
12:06<@Alberth>ie helicopter stuff, aircraft servicing, aircraft range limits
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12:52<Samu>i see i got a problem
12:53<Samu>i try to do one thing, but then i realize that I have to do more for it to work well
12:54<Samu>then i try to implement everything on the same patch, and the initial titlle may no longer make sense
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12:59<Samu>to make the different aircraft types work with the addition of the new setting, I realised I had to touch servicing code, go to hangar code. I inadvertedly had to touch helicopters afterwards
13:00<andythenorth>frosch123: what you up to? :)
13:00<frosch123>fixing devzone
13:01<andythenorth>:o
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13:01<andythenorth>thanks
13:01*andythenorth is playing tanks
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13:01<frosch123>read the nginx beginner tutorial
13:01<frosch123>then changed stuff
13:01<frosch123>seems to work :p
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13:05<Samu>at the same time, I really wanted to solve a long standing problem with helicopters: service at helipads versus breakdowns. Since I was touching servicing code, and go to hangar, I was like "why not fix this too?"
13:05<Samu>so there you have it...
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>changing stuff from the tutorial is the most difficult thing
13:06<Samu>there is service that doesn't require engine replacing and a service that does, I had to differentiate
13:06<Samu>due to service at helipad setting being a headache
13:08<Samu>Alberth: other than the patch having a bad title, what u think about it as a whole
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13:10<@Alberth>it's normal that you find other spots once you start digging
13:11<@Alberth>then you decide if it belongs in the same patch, or it must be a new patch
13:12<@Alberth>For trunk, typically you would make a new patch (a new commit) if you change some other thing.
13:12<@Alberth>tbh, I have no idea what "as a whole" is, it seems a random collection of aircraft fixes
13:13<@Alberth>fix/changes perhaps
13:14<Samu>the idea for that patch was to really disable large aircraft landing on airports with short runway.
13:14<Samu>i thought that maybe this would "help" players
13:15<Samu>if the aircraft is not avaliable to purchase at a small airport hangar, they are being "helped"
13:15<Samu>or if they try to put an order on a small airport, it just doesn't accept it
13:19<Samu>i like to say this feature is similar to railway vs electrified railway
13:21<Samu>"the whole collection of fixes" is what's killing it, right :(
13:27<Samu>I will try to separate everything into small patches once I get back
13:27<@Alberth>if that's "the whole", then yes, it's too large
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13:28<@Alberth>patch shoudn't do more than what the label on the box says :)
13:29<@Alberth>as for the other parts, I have no clue; I never played with range limits
13:29<@Alberth>no idea how it works and what its problems are or are not
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13:30<@Alberth>tbh I am not sure your patch counts as helping; you're killing a game mechanic
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13:31<Samu>i remember that I have savegames ready to show those issues
13:31<Samu>but not on this house
13:31<@Alberth>ie it's possible to land a large aircraft in a small airport, but it comes with a risk
13:32<@Alberth>a player should imho weigh that advantages against the risks, and decide
13:32<@Alberth>the patch makes the decision for him
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13:32<Samu>yes, but aircraft crashes setting could be disabled
13:32<@Alberth>yes, the risk is 0 then
13:33<Samu>the risk is gone, and now players can abuse big planes on small airports :(
13:33<@Alberth>yep, just as people can disable breakdowns, use newgrfs that allow trains running on all track types, level the netire terrain, and lots of other things
13:34<@Alberth>simple solution is not to play with people that are not compatible with your preferences
13:35<@Alberth>trying to change people is mostly wasted effort
13:35<Samu>wanted to enforce the differentiation :(
13:37<Samu>there is currently no middle option to setup a server where ppl have no aircraft crashes
13:37<Samu>and still use the correct aircraft sizes
13:37<Samu>it feels like something is amiss
13:38<Samu>so I went ahead with this patch, to offer that possibility :|
13:39<Samu>i could setup max station size up to 5x5 tiles,, which would completely disable large airports, and intending a server with small airports only. Naturally, I want ppl to use small airplanes, but with aircraft crashes disabled, they would end building large planes :(
13:40<Samu>there's a lack of flexibility here
13:40<@Alberth>it may be simpler to make a newgrf that disables the small airport
13:41<Samu>you meant large airports?
13:43<Samu>sorry, I have to go... be back later. tc
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13:57<andythenorth>this is weird https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6663
14:16<frosch123>it's the old thing
14:17<frosch123>secondary industries close after 5 years of no service
14:17<frosch123>if they are all spawned at the same time (e.g. game start), they all close at the same time
14:17<frosch123>it's more extreme on huge maps
14:17<frosch123>blame huge maps
14:34<Borg>or!
14:34<Borg>use my gamescript ;)
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15:05<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i suggested a long time ago that there should be "inactive" areas that a player never touched, and the shutdown counter there is halted
15:12<Borg>nah...
15:12<Borg>its ok.. in my opinion
15:12<Borg>that would make game too much static
15:12<Borg>its already become kind static.... if you serve industries right
15:12<andythenorth>industry regions would be really nice
15:12<andythenorth>dunno why
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15:13<andythenorth>dumb proposal: randomise some bits per town
15:13<andythenorth>use them for industry stuff
15:13<andythenorth>including closure
15:13<Borg>well... leave that to GS?
15:13<andythenorth>dunno, maybe
15:13<Borg>also.. I wonder who choosed Squi... whatever.. as OpenTTD GS....
15:13<andythenorth>problem is Only One GS
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>there are random bits for towns, it's called town name
15:14<andythenorth>"GS can fix it" is pretty limited IRL
15:14<andythenorth>it's a nice theory
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: i think it was TrueBrain
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>with a "... this is not negotiable"
15:14<frosch123>Borg: there are essentially only lua and squirrel. and lua is terrible
15:15<Borg>LUA is terrible?
15:15<Borg>are you fucking kidding me?
15:15<Borg>I see LUA superrior to GS
15:15<Borg>I mean squirrel.. ;P
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15:21<Borg>learning GS.. I noticed that OpenTTD programmers.. love OO.. to the extent.....
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15:35<LordAro>i'm not convinced lua was a viable option at the time
15:36<LordAro>Borg: OO comes with squirrel, it's not a OTTD thing
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15:47<Borg>LordAro: I know. but.. its so abused in GS.. ;) in my opinion
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>certainly OO is an invention by openttd... nobody else ever did it, and openttd is pure OO
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>*hint*: all the statements above are false
15:50<LordAro>Borg: i'd imagine you feel the same way about java
16:01<andythenorth>python? o_O
16:14<Borg>LordAro: yeah... Java.. ugh
16:14<Borg>andythenorth: python is a laught. if we speak about OO..
16:14<andythenorth>such objects
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17:05<Eddi|zuHause>not every usage of objects is automatically OO
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17:19<Samu>hi Wormnest
17:19<Samu>i reported a crash, did you see it
17:19<Samu>wondering what happened
17:20<Wormnest>Hi Samu, yeah I saw I know what I need to change just don´t have a lot of time atm
17:21<Samu>the assertion failed
17:22<Wormnest>Yes, I think although very rare its possible at that place for an engine to become invalid
17:22<Wormnest>This was still part of the original nocab I think
17:23<Samu>oh, vehicles expire is enabled
17:23<Samu>i've enabled it lately
17:24<Samu>so maybe that could be the cause
17:24<Samu>airports also expire
17:24<Samu>well, only the small airport though
17:25<Wormnest>Yes as far as I can see it´s like because some engine expired but ai should handle that
17:25<Samu>i've been messing around with AIs whom I've spent less time with
17:26<Samu>have you ever seen DictatorAI build trains in your tests?
17:26<Wormnest>I think so
17:27<Samu>strange, i never was able to see trains
17:27<Samu>the log shows that it's dealing with wagons and engines, but then... I see nothing built
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17:28<Wormnest>But I can´t say I really remember details of any past ai tests
17:29<Samu>I've been also trying to understand what is BorkAI doing with all that town cache
17:30<Samu>dictatorAI has airport upgrading. It's was the first time I Saw an AI build a intercontinental airport
17:31<Samu>but he risks too much
17:31<Samu>demolishes the old airport to plant the new
17:31<Samu>fails most of the time, I'm surprised it still rebuilds the previous airport
17:32<Samu>on fail
17:33<Samu>When will wormAi get road or ship support? :p
17:33<Wormnest>WormAI has upgrading of airports too
17:33<Samu>oh, never seen intercontinental
17:33<Wormnest>Whenever I have time and feel like doing it :p
17:33<Samu>the largest
17:34<Wormnest>Maybe it doesn´t do that one, can´t remember
17:34<Samu>9x11 tiles
17:34<Wormnest>In most cases you won´t need one that big anyway
17:34<Samu>dictatorai really is insane regarding terraform
17:35<Samu>for that intercontinental airport, he leveled a whole mass of land on water
17:35<Samu>i can't imagine the costs
17:36<Samu>well, for ship support, I suggest looking at NoNoCAB code :p
17:36<Wormnest>as long as you don´t have infrastructure costs you will earn it back fast
17:37<Samu>for road, i would say mogulai for industries, it gave me the idea it's smart and fast enough
17:39<Samu>for town, I'm not sure yet. AroAI always seem to leave a good impression, but... there seems to be no perfect bus ai
17:40<Samu>cluelessplus is ultra slow...
17:40<Samu>what do u think it's best?
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17:48<Wormnest>Well my plan for adding ships is indeed to use part of nonocab but ofcourse with different decision making for how to select a route
17:49<Wormnest>What ai is best also depends on the settings. I don´t think there´s one ai that always performs best
17:53<Samu>this new AI, LuDiAI is quite efficient at doing buses, but... he's a cheater, not fair to count it on
17:53<Samu>station spreading, to increase coverage
17:56<Samu>i'm not sure what to say about Convoy. it's one of the AIs i don't usually pay attention, will take a closer look at the things he does
18:01<Wormnest>That´s not cheating, it´s allowed. I do it too sometimes
18:05<Samu>i think i should start a bus competition ai one day, lol
18:05<Samu>clear up my doubts about the issue
18:06<Samu>problem will be how to prevent ais from building trucks
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22:26<supermop>yo
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22:31<@DorpsGek>supermop_home: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
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