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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-01-21

---Logopened Sun Jan 21 00:00:58 2018
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03:59<andythenorth>o/
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04:08<Eddi|zuHause>... finally someone put some sense into pasenger generation?
04:10<Eddi|zuHause>that certainly explains why the passenger generation problem is worse with newgrf houses
04:26<peter1138>?
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04:59<andythenorth>generation grows quadratically or something
04:59<andythenorth>which explains a lot
04:59<andythenorth>forum thread about it
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05:28<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: basically, as far as i understood it, passenger generation uses the house population both for the chance to generate passengers at all, and for the amount of passengers to generate, so a house with double population will generate 4 times the passengers over the same timeframe
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>that, combined with the fact that most house sets tend towards higher population houses
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05:58<Wolf01>o/
06:06<peter1138>ah
06:09<Wolf01>Hmm
06:13<Borg>soo ? is that a problem?
06:13<Borg>let it be so...
06:15<peter1138>well
06:15<peter1138>what house populations are possible?
06:23<Wolf01>BTW, just make it a setting: pax generation -> quadratic|linear XD
06:24<Wolf01>We need to remove everything from the game and just keep the core, move all to GS/NewGRF
06:26<Borg>hold on....
06:26<Borg>can GS carry it?
06:26<Borg>also NewGRF?
06:26<Wolf01>We are discussing this for like 2 years
06:26<Wolf01>"We"
06:29<Wolf01>The game as it is can't be fixed because 1) the base game should work like the original game; 2) you can't force all the players to play as *you* want, even if it's a fix (see the pax generation problem); 3) how many settings do you want for every single bit of feature the game provides? We already moved a lot of settings in CFG only as they were too much and they still are too much
06:30<Borg>but moving too much out of the game engine.. might be step backward.. imo
06:30<Borg>remember that OpenTTD is client/server
06:31<Wolf01>The solution is to do it like NoAI, move it out of the game, provide a base script which behave like the original game, let players use their own scripts to change the entire way the game works
06:36<Wolf01>Lets take as example one of the old discussion I had with andy, trees: current trees are limited, we wanted to change their distribution and which types could appear in different places of the map -> explosion of settings, we then decided that making a grf which has its own settings for each tree is the best way
06:36<Wolf01>The problem is to find the time and will to do it :P
06:38<Borg>uh... lucky.. I dont get much about trees...
06:38<Borg>I just generate map w/o them. and allow them to grow everywhere..
06:39<Borg>after 50 years... there are nice forest here and there :)
06:39<Borg>and they even group themself w/ types ;)
06:41<Wolf01>What if you want snowy tops without trees, evergreen trees/bushes in certain areas, different trees near water?
06:41<Borg>yeah.. not possible now..
06:42<Borg>but the game is about transportation.. not trees planting.. heh
06:42<Borg>go play.. forest simulator instead ;))
06:43<Wolf01>Some of us want also to create beautiful landscapes and not just ottdcoop massive transportation systems with 234534 parallel tracks
06:43<Borg>uh... game have very limited landscape posibilities.. due to its tile nature...
06:44<Wolf01>Yes, but you still have possibilities
06:44<Borg>and I i am not fan of openttdcoop massive tracks stuff too ;P
06:47<Borg>Wolf01: so I guess u play mostly on 32bit? w/ extended static grf graphics?
06:47<Wolf01>Nope, I only play 8bpp
06:47<Borg>oh ok..
06:49<Flygon><Eddi|zuHause> that, combined with the fact that most house sets tend towards higher population houses
06:49<Flygon>I always wanted a set that somehow simulated urban sprawl.
06:49<Flygon>And rural farmhouses.
06:49<Flygon>But I'm not sure that's all that practicable in OpenTTD.
06:50<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> what house populations are possible? <-- i think it's 0..255
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: sure, but that is completely besides the point
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: pikka tried to do something like that where rural "towns" have low-population 2x2 houses
07:00<Flygon>Yeah, I was thinking in terms of... like.
07:00<Flygon>8*8
07:00<Flygon>But that's clearly not going to work for very obvious reasons.
07:03<Borg>just add extra option ;)
07:04<Borg>there is flag where town is a city..
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07:20<Wolf01>o/
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07:38<Wolf01>Quak
07:38<frosch123>moo
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07:44<andythenorth>hi
07:46<Wolf01>Nice, I found some shunting puzzles already made for tane
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08:26<Borg>I wonder why still station rating calculation is not fixed..
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08:26<Borg>having bonus for vehicles <2 years old is riduculus...
08:26<Borg>it should be like <10 years..
08:26<Borg>linear.
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08:50<Samu>heyllo
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08:51<Samu>so i've been looking at AIs and how they build buses
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08:52<Samu>AdmiralAI has an impressive layout
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08:52<Samu>how did i miss it before :(
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08:52<Samu>Wormnest:
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08:53<Samu>AIAI, on the other hand, has the most abherrant building style
08:54<Samu>too much station spreading
08:54<Wormnest>Samu?
08:54<Samu>he tries to get coverage of the whole town by station spreading
08:54<Samu>that's me!
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08:55<Samu>I am commenting about the "best bus AI"
08:55<Wormnest>best by what defenition
08:55<Samu>with you, hopefully
08:56<Samu>better looking, better efficiency, speed, all that
08:56<Wormnest>Still, how do you define better looking, efficience etc
08:57<Samu>better looking, I just look at the world, and see how tidy, nice, elegant, lel it is
08:58<Samu>efficient, is about no jams, the speed at which things get built
08:58<Samu>and if it's actually profiting
09:00<Wormnest>The first point seems to be really subjective to personal taste
09:01<Wormnest>Profiting is usually no problem
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09:02<Samu>well yeah, but in this case, it's about buses and towns, so it kind of matters if the stuff is not so jammed, or if the vehicles aren't blocking due to full loadings and that kind of things. Seems harder to manage a bus service than an industry service
09:02<Samu>towns eventually grow
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09:03<Samu>some AIs just build one station in the town, then never looks back, some others, try to expand stations, and there's others that actually build more new stations for the same town
09:03<Wormnest>Especially if you run with multiple ai´s it may not be easy for an ai to make sure there are no traffic jams
09:04<Wormnest>Larger towns attract ai´s and they can cause too much traffic
09:06<Wormnest>NoNoCab tries to compute the amount of vehicles a route can handle but it does not consider other companies or ais also using the same roads
09:06<Wormnest>Ofcourse with traffic jams the profits will go down and then vehicles will start to be sold
09:07<Samu>I see
09:07<Samu>i think CluelessPlus is overly cautions about jams
09:08<Samu>he builds a service, then only starts 2 trucks / buses at a time
09:08<Samu>later on, when he reviews routes, he decides to add 2 more and so
09:08<Samu>quite slow at that
09:08<Samu>but i guess it helps defeat traffic jams
09:08<Wormnest>But gradually increasing can be a good tactic
09:09<Wormnest>Slow but steady can sometimes be better than adding a lot all at once
09:11<Samu>i looked yesterday at convoy, and i believe it has a buggy behaviour
09:11<Samu>most of his vehicles are stopped in depots
09:12<Samu>and from time to time it stalls...
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09:13<Samu>despite that, it has an interesting start regarding speed
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09:14<Samu>he decides to build 14 buses for a route, so he builds all 14, but only starts 2, leaving 12 stopped in depot, I wondered if this was part of his plan, but i believe not, sounds more like a bug
09:15<Samu>when he finishes the 2nd route, he goes back to managing previous routes, and starts 2 more on the first, leaving 10 stopped in depot. but meanwhile, the 2nd route also has vehicles stopped in depot, looks buggy behaviour
09:16<Samu>once every bus is out, at about the 10th bus service, he starts cloning massively
09:17<Samu>25 cloned buses on the first route, and left stopped in the depot
09:17<Samu>he got 12 + 25 for this route already, very strange
09:17<Samu>erm 14
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09:21<Samu>looking at terron atm
09:22<Samu>terron is a bit special, he deals with mail and busses at the same time, even if i only tell it to deal with busses
09:22<Samu>he considers it town to town cargo
09:25<Samu>i suppose that's an "efficient" idea
09:25<Samu>codewise
09:28<Samu>seems to build 2 pairs of pass/mail in each and every town
09:28<Samu>doesn't look like he builds more than that once towns grow enough
09:30<Samu>ah, i see he expands stations, not really station spreading, just adjacent expanding
09:34<debdog>in FIRS (http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/docs/html/get_started.html ) it says "primary and secondary industries". what does that mean, what's the difference between these categories?
09:38<Samu>primary industry - produces the first cargo
09:38<Samu>secondary industry - requrires first cargo to produce the second cargo
09:39<debdog>ah, ok. thx
09:40<Borg>yeah.. would be better to call primary industry saw raw industry
09:41<Borg>s/saw/as/
09:43<Samu>enough terron, I've seen enough
09:44<Samu>looking at BorkAI again
09:46<Samu>yeah, borkai appears to be overly cautios about traffic jams, let's see
09:48<Samu>hmm, he's slow :(
09:48<Samu>was expecting more
09:50<Samu>too slow for my liking
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09:50<Samu>infrastructure wise, it looks semi-decent, but nearly no buses built
09:56<Samu>27 vehilces after 35 years on a 128x128 map, too slow
09:57<Samu>he really shouldn't be using full load
09:58<Samu>at least not in the way he builds
10:04<frosch123>debdog: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-sector_theory
10:04<debdog>ahh
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10:07<Samu>given enough time (aka 80 years), it's interesting to look at BorkAI bus services
10:07<Samu>he's utterly slow
10:07<Samu>but doesn't look all that bad
10:09<Samu>he renews vehicles, autoreplaces with new models
10:09<Samu>but his route planner is terribly slow
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10:40<Samu>looking at AdmiralAI again
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10:56<debdog>is there something wrong with newgrf ECS & FIRS vehicle set? according to the content downloader it is installed (plus the file exists on the fs) but the newgrf settings does not list it. http://beggabaur.rocks/Bilder/ECSnFIRS_vehicle_set.png
10:56<debdog>or could be something wrong on my end?
10:57<debdog>tested with a patched self compiled 1.7.0 and the official .deb package from ottd.org version 1.7.2
10:58<Samu>click Add
10:58<debdog>I would, if I'd be able to select it first
10:59<debdog>the LCT set is somethihng different
10:59<frosch123>no idea, it works for me
11:00<Samu>what is the name for vehicle set, i'm not familiar with those newgrfs
11:00<debdog>frosch123: which OS?
11:01<frosch123>debian, but shouldn't matter
11:01<debdog>k
11:01<debdog>hum
11:01<Samu>is it Original vehicles cargo set?, unsure
11:01<debdog>does openttd create a log file somewhere?
11:02<frosch123>you can start with command line option "-d misc=3" or something
11:02<Borg>hmmmm HMMM
11:02<Borg>5 platform 14 tiles long station.. monorail.. can handle 6k goods..
11:02<frosch123>that prints all the tars it scans
11:02<Borg>w/ sharp turn around...
11:02<Samu>"ECS & FIRS vehicle set" is this it?
11:02<frosch123>there should be a "ECS__FIRS_vehicle_set*tar" in it
11:04<debdog>dbg: [misc] Found tar '/home/ax/.openttd/content_download/newgrf/ECS__FIRS_vehicle_set-2014.11.26.tar' with 3 new files
11:05<Samu>yep, it's named "Original vehicles cargo set" once downloaded, just checked
11:05<frosch123>debdog: it was renamed
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11:05<frosch123>it's now called "orignal vehicles cargo set"
11:05<Samu>dunno why it does that
11:05<frosch123>select that in your list, and see the filename on the right :)
11:05<debdog>lol
11:05<debdog>could've searched for years then
11:06<debdog>that one is listed
11:06<frosch123>text filter would have worked
11:06<debdog>how?
11:07<frosch123>text filter also searches the description, any maybe also filename
11:07<debdog>k
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11:09<Samu>frosch123: fix bugs:)
11:12<Samu>yeah, frosch has me on ingore list, i see
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11:39<Samu>CivilAI is confusing
11:39<Samu>he tries too hard, but gets the wrong amount of buses,
11:40<Samu>seems to focus too much on growing towns by themselves, too little profits
11:41<Samu>well, towns grow eventually, but he risks too much
11:53<Samu>chat is dea
11:53<Borg>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/IndustryTileDefaultProps
11:53<Samu>nevermind
11:54<Borg>isnt that whole table wrong? low byte is cargo type.. not amount
11:56<Samu>Note that the values listed here are big-endian. In order to use the values listed for props 0A..0C in an NFO file, you'll have to reverse the bytes first.
11:57<Samu>eh.. i dunno how to help
11:57<Borg>aaaah ok
11:57<Borg>all clear
11:57<Borg>I missed that...
11:57<Borg>some moron wrote that table.. who game is little endian
11:58<Borg>and he came up w/ big endian here.. doh :)
11:58<Borg>s/who/whole/
11:59<Samu>chinese to me
12:00<Samu>bit endian, little endian
12:00<Samu>oh, big*, not even bit
12:00<frosch123>just read ottd sources
12:00<frosch123>way easier
12:01<Samu>frosch123: do you have me on ignore?
12:01<frosch123>http://hg.openttd.org/trunk.hg/file/ebcb85fa8acd/src/table/build_industry.h#l1571
12:02<Samu>t.t seems that way
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12:09<Samu>CivilAI is decent, if it actually takes off
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12:53<Samu>cpu has vehicles with no orders:(
12:54<Samu>with shared orders!
12:55<Samu>doesn't use autoreplace, but uses autorenew
12:56<Samu>wondering what happens when a model is no longer available to autorenew, what he does
12:57<LordAro>i feel like reading the source code would be a more time efficient way of working that out
12:59<Samu>he sells vehicles with negative profit, but some of these overaged buses
12:59<Samu>don't even get negative profits
12:59<Samu>breakdowns everywhere
13:10<Samu>i feel like creating a disaster
13:10<Samu>explode of old age
13:11<Samu>if a vehicle is past its max age, has reached 255 breakdowns and the model is no longer available, explode it!
13:11<Samu>to clean up the mess
13:13<@Alberth>provide a better competing service :)
13:15<Samu>give some meaning to that "and urgently needs replacing" message
13:19<@Rubidium>but.... that's not realistic
13:19<@Rubidium>you just keep running such a vehicle
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13:21<Samu>:(
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13:28<Snail>hey andythenorth
13:30<andythenorth> hi Snail
13:31<Snail>hey I’m currently coding your new cargo, PIPE
13:31<andythenorth>yup
13:31<Snail>what kind of metal is PIPE made of?
13:31<Snail>from the wiki it appears it can only be made of steel...
13:31<andythenorth>could be metal or plastic
13:32<andythenorth>might reappear in other economies, not sure
13:32<Snail>not aluminum or copper?
13:32<andythenorth>probably not
13:32<@Rubidium>they're made from me!
13:32<andythenorth>seen the chips cargo for it?
13:32*Rubidium is a metal
13:32<Snail>ok… I need to choose which color to make them appear on my flatbed wagons
13:32<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/repository/entry/sprites/graphics/pipe_cargo.png
13:33<Snail>steel-like grey, of course, but I was thinking about other subcargoes… such as light grey for aluminum or brownish for copper
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13:33<Snail>hmm I see, so basically only steel-like grey?
13:35<andythenorth>http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/photo/scaled/8730.jpg
13:35<andythenorth>https://i.ytimg.com/vi/mOsHcszKINI/hqdefault.jpg
13:35<andythenorth>http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_10_2016/post-13274-0-79745800-1476131801.jpg
13:36<andythenorth>http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_02_2012/post-9992-0-28995700-1330507381.jpg
13:36<andythenorth>grey is pretty safe
13:37<Snail>ok
13:37<Snail>thx
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>i think DBSet has grey and brown
13:37<Samu>green pipes
13:37<Samu>super mario
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>(for steel, basically)
13:41<Samu>enough of CPU, he's bad overall
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27965 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2018-01-21 19:45:39 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish (mexican): 43 changes by Absay
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13:52<Samu>speaking of translators, i'm gonna fix something that's irking me for a long time
13:52<Samu>if I'm still a translator, that is
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14:02<Samu>STR_GROUP_OCCUPANCY_VALUE
14:02<Samu>what is this
14:02<Samu>{NUM}%
14:05<@Alberth>a number and a percent sign
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14:05<@Alberth>42%
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14:06<@Alberth>assuming occupancy doesn't go negative or above 100
14:06<Samu>why are we required to translate that? :
14:07<Wolf01>Because certain languages don't use "42%" format but other ways to show it
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14:08<Wolf01>The placement of the percent sign (%).
14:08<Wolf01>It can be written several ways: 98%, 98 %, 98 pct, %98. Thus you should never assume that you can hard-code the percent sign.
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14:13<Snail>Eddi|zuHause: yes, for Steel and Metal I also have mutiple colors (grey, light grey and copper brown)
14:13<Snail>but if Pipes are not made of copper, it makes little sense to add brown...
14:18<Samu>oki
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14:28<@Alberth>use neon orange paint on the pipe, easier to find it back after burying it
14:32<andythenorth>today I learnt about http://www.jandenul.com/en/equipment/fleet/subsea-rock-installation-vessel
14:32<andythenorth>who'd have known
14:52<Samu>yesh, i translated pt_PT... i wanna cookie now
14:53<@Rubidium>go to any big website for your free share of cookies ;)
14:54<ST2>@Rubidium: 1 - Samu: 0
15:03<Samu>ok enough translation for today
15:04<Samu>those vehicle previews are a bit messed up
15:04<Samu>it was inconsistent, hope it's better now
15:06<Samu>I wonder why I get suggestions from pt_BR
15:06<Samu>lame
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15:36<Samu>EpicTrans is a nasty bus station builder
15:37<Samu>doesn't renew his vehicles
15:37<Samu>and no autoreplace either
15:38<Samu>but it's ultra fast building
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15:38<Samu>so fast, it gets bankrupts warnings from time to time
15:40<Samu>i would give it a 3/10
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15:55<Samu>hi
15:55<Samu>is there a LuDiAI topic? I can't find any
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15:56<Samu>i got a crash report, but no topic to report to
15:56<Samu>bah
15:56<Samu>Wormnest: halp
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15:57<Wormnest>Samu: There is not forum topic for it
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15:58<Wormnest>And seeing as it was a university study topic most likely will never get updates
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15:58<Samu>Your script made an error: parameter 1 has an invalid type '(null)'; expected: 'null'
15:58<Samu>(null) is different than 'null'
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16:47<Wolf01>'night
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17:22<andythenorth>also
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18:38<Samu>recessions also affect passengers and mail? I didn't know that
18:38<Samu>I thought it was only for industries
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