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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-01-28

---Logopened Sun Jan 28 00:00:08 2018
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02:45<@Alberth>o/
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03:10<andythenorth>moin
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03:26<@Alberth>hi hi
03:30<andythenorth>moin Alberth
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05:04<Wolf01>Moin
05:06<@Alberth>moin
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05:08<Wolf01>Mmmh, test play on stellaris taught me something, now it's time to do a serious play
05:09<Wolf01>Also, I need to download 1 scenario for TANE, which will take about 15 days at 10kbps :P
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05:11<Wolf01>Damn missing dependencies, it should warn you about it before you start downloading 900MB of stuff at 10kbps :(
05:14<@Alberth>quite
05:14<@Alberth>looks like a game that sells very well, so it's likely good :)
05:15<Wolf01>It only list "available for download" or "builtin" or "already installed"... when you download them "oops, this dependency misses some other dependencies"... wtf? I already listed all the deps recursively, whi didn't you warned me?
05:15<Wolf01>*why
05:17<@Alberth>don't know either :(
05:18<Wolf01>Oh wow, it's downloading at 14.8kbps! :D
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>that's like 50% more
05:18<@Alberth>saves a week :p
05:19<Wolf01>Spoke too early, dropping fast, like 0.05kbps at second, it's at 13.2kbps now :(
05:21<Wolf01>And I don't know how to activate the first class ticket of 30 days I should have, because my account doesn't even list the game even if I'm logged in with it in the game
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>you have strange problems
05:22<Wolf01>With TS2012 I just added the serial key to the account on the site, but this key is not compatible because it's a steam only key
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07:14<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
07:15<Wolf01>o/
07:15<andythenorth>I tried to figure out how compatible_railtypes works
07:15<andythenorth>but it's bit shift magic :P
07:15<andythenorth>I have NFI, I can only assume it ORs a bunch of bits or something
07:15<andythenorth>to get the available types
07:17<Wolf01>The problem with NRT is that you have 2 types on the same tile which also need to be compatible with each other, like if you have a tram on tile and you want to upgrade to a road which doesn't allow tram then you must check it too
07:18<Wolf01>There are really a lot of checks added than railtypes
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07:22<andythenorth>do we allow road to forbid tram? o_O
07:22<Wolf01>Why not?
07:22<andythenorth>complicated?
07:23<Wolf01>It's a flag
07:23<andythenorth>ok
07:23<Wolf01>Like forbid level crossings, not suitable for houses, forbid intersections...
07:23<andythenorth>so it's not actually a problem for roads with OWNER_TOWN?
07:25<Wolf01>At least if you won't specify a road buildable by towns which forbids trams...
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07:30<Samu>hi
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07:38<andythenorth>hmm
07:38<andythenorth>I am wondering if NRT is just a bad idea
07:38<andythenorth>the town stuff is pretty much unsolvable
07:39<Wolf01>Nah
07:40<andythenorth>it's total griefing
07:40<andythenorth>all day, every day
07:40<andythenorth>I just block you from every town by building a ring of incompatible roads
07:40<andythenorth>I can just load a newgrf with a ridiculous low speed limit and ruin your game
07:40<Wolf01>Put a bridge
07:40<andythenorth>I just convert all town roads
07:41<Wolf01>You have plenty of ways to grief players
07:41<Wolf01>Not only with roads
07:41<Samu>rip NRT?
07:41<andythenorth>RIP any roadtypes ever
07:41<Wolf01>If you don't want griefing then don't load grf which are too much toward it
07:42<andythenorth>it's shared infra, and shared infra doesn't work
07:42<andythenorth>I don't understand why we don't ban trams too
07:42<andythenorth>I can just build trams in your town, and stop them
07:42<andythenorth>flood town, shared orders, stop all
07:43<andythenorth>also industries that overbuild town buildings should be banned
07:43<andythenorth>I can just make a newgrf with £0 cost for an industry that overbuilds town
07:43<andythenorth>then replace all your houses with it
07:43<Wolf01>Slept bad tonight?
07:44<andythenorth>losing in tank game a lot :P
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08:09<andythenorth>Wolf01: how about we only consider my use case, ignore all others, profit? :)
08:09<Samu>is there a Company Value game script on banana ?
08:10<Wolf01>And your use case was?
08:10<Samu>i find it odd that i can't find any, when there's plenty of servers using it
08:11<andythenorth>if I made a grf, I would only do ROAD, ELRD, HAUL, ELHL
08:11<andythenorth>and HAUL isn't compatible with ROAD
08:11<andythenorth>so no griefing
08:11<andythenorth>if we can forbid 'downgrade' of ELRD to ROAD
08:11<andythenorth>we win all prizes
08:12<andythenorth>ship, glory, fireworks
08:14<Wolf01>I already need to forbid downgrade el->normal, on city roads, on your roads you do what you want
08:14<Samu>ST2: are you awake?
08:15<Samu>I am looking for a game script where the goal is to be the first company to reach XXX company value
08:15<Samu>akin to what happens in most multiplayer servers
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>i think you're overthinking this
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>town will only care about the road, not the electrification
08:31<andythenorth>??
08:34<Samu>i can't edit #opcodes in the scenario editor? any valid reason for that?
08:34<Samu>was trying to load a savegame in the editor to change this value :(
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08:48<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what am I missing?
08:48<andythenorth>o_O
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08:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that it's fairly useless to build in special rules for "cannot downgrade ELRD to ROAD"
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>griefers gonna grief either way (like trying to remove the road altogether), and players are going to be annoyed because they can't build how they like
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>so town restriction should only be that there are houses allowed next to the road
08:53<andythenorth>can we quote that?
08:53<andythenorth>then it's done
08:53<andythenorth>I see no solution to the griefers
08:53<andythenorth>we could write 5k lines of code, and still no solution
08:54<andythenorth>but it's remarkably trivial griefing, and I think it will lead to NRT being banned on servers
08:54<andythenorth>maybe we should include an on/off toggle for NRT in settings?
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09:27<Samu>hi
09:34<Samu>why can't I modify #opcodes in the scenario editor?
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09:40<@Alberth>no running AI?
09:41<@Alberth>I would consider it a setting specific to a computer system rather than to a specific scenario
09:41<Samu>I am looking at settings.ini, the flags
09:41<@Alberth>ok
09:41<Samu>guiflags = SGF_NEWGAME_ONLY
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09:42<@Alberth>you can't configure players either in the scenario editor
09:43<Samu>what will happen if I change to guiflags = SGF_NEWGAME_ONLY | SGF_SCENEDIT_TOO
09:43<Samu>there might be GS running in scenario editor, if I recall
09:43<Samu>what will happen to those
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09:44<@Alberth>I have no idea
09:44<Samu>neither do I :p
09:47<Samu>building 1.7.2
09:47<Samu>i hope it's not 1.7.2M
09:50<Samu>bah, it became 1.7.2M :(
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09:52<Samu>incompatible with multiplayer servers, i only changed something for the scenario editor :(
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10:01*Rubidium wonders how many games have desynced because something was changed "only" for the scenario editor
10:02<Samu>Rubidium: I request guiflags = SGF_NEWGAME_ONLY | SGF_SCENEDIT_TOO for this setting script.script_max_opcode_till_suspend
10:02<Samu>plz do
10:03<Samu>so i can prepare a scenario for AIs properly
10:04<Wolf01>Since you only need to chenge settings, you can prepare the scenario with a modified version of the game and load it on the base game and stop demanding weird things
10:04<Samu>^:(
10:06<andythenorth>Wolf01: Eddi says we don't need to worry about downgrades
10:06<andythenorth>so just compatibility check with ROAD
10:06<Wolf01>Good then, the game is ready :P
10:07<@Rubidium>Samu: sure, but only once my OpenTTD commit frequency for 2018 is strictly below the frequency of 2017...
10:09<andythenorth>you don't want to breach the limit? o-O
10:10<Wolf01>andythenorth: we need to change road_cmd.cpp:L2377 so if it's not compatible it throws an error too instead of allowing it anyway (currently it throws an error when an incompatible vehicle is found on the road you are converting)
10:11<Wolf01>That is the main point of checking the compatibility
10:12<Wolf01>As it is now, it just works like rail, do you want to change this behavior?
10:13*andythenorth looking
10:13<LordAro>Rubidium: i'm not sure i'd consider that an achievement :p
10:14<Wolf01>Nobody stops you to convert from rail to maglev, and they are incompatible
10:14<andythenorth>but I can't convert your rail
10:14<andythenorth>I hate the griefing crap
10:15<andythenorth>can we just ignore it?
10:15<andythenorth>MP is stupid anyway, except coop
10:15<Wolf01>But it's only a problem with city owned roads
10:16<Wolf01>If you want to create a mining city with haul roads, why not?
10:16<andythenorth>I think no compatibility check
10:16<Wolf01>If another player wanted to use that city for pax... amen
10:16<andythenorth>ship it
10:16<andythenorth>let's get it into trunk, see what the players fo
10:16<andythenorth>do *
10:16<andythenorth>I think we should add *more* opportunities to grief not less
10:17<andythenorth>increase the range of exploits
10:17<Wolf01>Griefing in real life is even worse, and they do it all the time
10:19<Samu>ST2: https://www.openttd.org/en/server/114360
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10:20<Wolf01>Anyway, I'm ok with adding a check only for town roads to be able to convert them only if they are compatible with ROAD
10:22<Samu>what I really wanted was to start an AI company as a client
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10:23<Samu>i join server 7, and I would start an AI there
10:23<Samu>competing with hoomans
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: once upon a time Brianetta ran a "no rules" server, and people still played nice most of the time
10:27<Samu>weird
10:27<Samu>restart didn't made an exact copy of town and industry positionings
10:27<Samu>only copied landscape
10:28<Wolf01>Yes
10:29<andythenorth>Wolf01: so NRT is finished?
10:29<Wolf01>No, there is really a lot to do
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10:30<Wolf01>Patch nml for the "usable as town road" flag, if it needs to be patched, then the next feature we will work on it's this one
10:31<andythenorth>nml will need patched yes
10:31<andythenorth>I can do that
10:35<Samu>isn't the restart command used to do an exacty copy of the map?
10:35<Samu>world
10:36<Samu>help restart
10:37<Samu>btpro client must be the culprit
10:37<Samu>btpro build, i mean
10:39<Samu>ST2: wake up ploz
10:40<Samu>what have you done to map generation code?
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10:40<ST2>2 options: !voterestart (diff map) !voterestartgame (same map)
10:41<Samu>i bet the restart of oficial 1.7.2 is different than your server's 1.7.2
10:41<Samu>can u test it?
10:41<Samu>i get towns in different places
10:41<Samu>the landscape is nearly equal, but raised land is still different
10:42<ST2>yes I can test it - join our server #5 to see it
10:42<Samu>industries are in different places too
10:42<Samu>ok coming
10:42<Samu>bah requires newgrf crap, sec
10:52<Wolf01>andythenorth: do you have some HAUL download link?
10:52<Wolf01>I lost mine
10:52<andythenorth>yes, but afk right now
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10:54<Samu>309255297
10:55<andythenorth>Wolf01: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1180663#p1180663
10:55<Wolf01>+1
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11:22<Wolf01>andythenorth: pushed, see if it suits you
11:23*andythenorth tries
11:23<Samu>guys, i think there is a bug with the restart command
11:24<Wolf01>No, there isn't
11:24<Samu>with my config, i got a slightly different town/industry placement than with the config of server 7
11:24<Samu>i now got both config files in my possession
11:25<andythenorth>Wolf01: how about we make catenary a button on the construction toolbar? :P
11:25<Samu>shouldn't the restart do an exact copy, regardless of the base config?
11:25<Wolf01>andythenorth: yes, but that's out of scope of the branch I'm working on
11:26<andythenorth>nah I was just trolling
11:26<Wolf01>Samu: no, a map is created from a lot of different configs: seed, map size, number of industries, difficulty settings...
11:27<Wolf01>We should get a real "seed" and not just a terrain initialization seed, which groups all of them and so you can recreate the same exact map everywhere
11:33<andythenorth>Wolf01: all seems to work :)
11:33<andythenorth>what's left to do there?
11:33<Wolf01>You can't anymore convert town roads to haul, noticed it?
11:33<andythenorth>hmm
11:34<andythenorth>I just did :(
11:34<andythenorth>I thought maybe that was intentional
11:34<andythenorth>oh I did git fetch not pull
11:34<Samu>savegame doesn't save everything?
11:35<Samu>i entered btpro server 7 game, typed restart
11:37<andythenorth>Wolf01: yeah that's much better now
11:37<andythenorth>no mining trucks in town
11:38<Wolf01>Merge it into ratt?
11:39<Samu>is there a difference between economy = 1 and economy = true?
11:39<Wolf01>Yes, one is 1 and one is true
11:40<Samu>im trying to find the culprit, that is making restart look different on both configs
11:41<andythenorth>Wolf01: yeah merge, you doing it or me?
11:42<Wolf01>I'll do it
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11:47<Wolf01>Done
11:47<Wolf01>NRT, now with 75% more griefing
11:49<andythenorth>gr8 :)
11:49<andythenorth>forum announce? o_O
11:50<Wolf01>If you want
11:50<andythenorth>ok
11:51<andythenorth>I'll wait for the build I guess
11:51<andythenorth>https://www.openttd.org/en/download-ratt
11:51<Wolf01>Tomorrow then
11:54<Samu>st2 you have settings that don't exist in a fresh openttd.cfg
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12:18<Samu>i think i found the culprit
12:18<Samu>variety
12:18<Samu>variety isn't saved on savegames, is it?
12:21<Samu>i typed in console 'setting variety 5' then 'restart' and this time I got the exact same replication
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12:29<Samu>var = game_creation.variety
12:29<Samu>flags = SLF_NOT_IN_SAVE | SLF_NO_NETWORK_SYNC
12:29<Samu>there it is, the culprit
12:30<Samu>i wonder if i can do something about this
12:31<Wolf01>You can start by gathering every single setting involved in map generation
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12:36<Samu>oh wow, savegames are broken now... lol
12:36<Samu>this requires a savegame conversion? :(
12:36<Samu>sad :(
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13:35<Samu>Wolf01: what's the difference between _settings_game.game_creation.variety and _settings_newgame.game_creation.variety
13:36<Samu>which one is important to put in savegames?
13:37<Wolf01>Don't put stuff in savegames
13:37<Wolf01>Also, the first one is the setting, the second one is used by the newgame generator, copied from settings but not saved back
13:38<Samu>it appears to be the only setting that is not stored in savegames
13:39<Samu>there's another, but it's related to game pause
13:39<Samu>doesn't seem related to map generation
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13:40<Samu>Client setting (not stored in saves; affects all games)
13:40<Samu>seems to be the only client setting
13:43<Samu>https://imgur.com/6MdMyJD
13:55<Samu>how do i convert savegames in a situation like this?
13:56<Samu>seems that no conversion is needed, only a savegame version bump
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14:17<YaBoi>hi
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14:45<Samu>Rubidium: are u the dev admin? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=82544 fix plz
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14:47<Samu>Wolf01: take a look too plz :)
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14:58<Samu>hey gelignite
14:58<Samu>make your AI grow more towns, not just 1 town
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15:01<supermop>yo
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15:01<Samu>hi
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16:29<supermop>@logs
16:29<@DorpsGek>supermop: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
16:30<supermop>hi Wolf01
16:34<supermop>i think for some of the stuff you must just ignore it and assume players and grf authors won't make stupid decisions with roads
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17:30<Wolf01>Stuffed with food... 'night
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18:13<Samu>so i was bored and this is what I decided to do
18:13<Samu>https://imgur.com/T5RKXaT
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 29 00:00:09 2018