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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-02-18

---Logopened Sun Feb 18 00:00:12 2018
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03:46<@Alberth>o/
04:00<andythenorth>moin
04:05<@Alberth>it's a pity the commuter airport is not available longer, would be nice to make a aircraft network to connect the remote towns with each other for BB
04:09<andythenorth>I use OGFX+ Airports
04:09<andythenorth>which fixes quite a lot of airport problems
04:09<andythenorth>dates, costs, noise restrictions
04:09<andythenorth>and rotations
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04:44<@Alberth>production in firs increases linearly on arriving cargo, isn't it?
04:44<@Alberth>would it be nice if it increases slightly less than linear? it would mean it's better to distribute cargo delivery
04:45<@Alberth>although is a style of playing I guess
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04:50<andythenorth>for secondary production?
04:50<andythenorth>it's just linear ratio in->out
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05:07<Wolf01>o/
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05:49<Samu>hi
06:01<Samu>Wolf01: d you wanna test my Company Value GS?
06:02<Wolf01>No
06:02<Samu>:)
06:03<andythenorth>Wolf01: so NRT all bugs fixed? o_O
06:03<andythenorth>:)
06:04<Wolf01>No, there is a bad bug I don't know how to solve
06:04<Wolf01>Introduced with long-branch-name merge
06:05<Wolf01>Grf says I have ELRL available, game says not, no tram available...
06:05<andythenorth>:o
06:05<Wolf01>But if you load unspooled all works fine
06:06<Wolf01>frosch123: could you help me a bit on that?
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06:27<andythenorth>Wolf01: I can't repro that with Hog
06:27<Wolf01>Did you load only Hog?
06:27<Wolf01>No other grfs
06:28<andythenorth>no other NRT grfs
06:29<Wolf01>But Hog is crafted for NRT, generic trams is generic
06:29<andythenorth>hmm
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06:35<andythenorth>Wolf01: so the issue is with grfs that pre-date NRT?
06:35<Wolf01>Seem so
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06:41<andythenorth>I'll try and repro
06:42<andythenorth>Wolf01: yeah I can repro that with egrvts
06:43<andythenorth>is there already an implemented solution, and it has bugs? Or does it need a proposal?
06:44<frosch123>old grds used to default to ROAD and ELRL
06:44<frosch123>*grfs
06:44<Wolf01>I implemented a fix for that with long-branch-name, but it doesn't seem to fix that
06:47<frosch123>https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/blob/road-and-tram-types/src/newgrf.cpp#L9501
06:48<Wolf01>Or at least, I never tried without unspooled
06:48<frosch123>i think i tested it back then
06:49<Wolf01>Yes, it loads fine etc, but the function I introduced to only show available roadtypes now disables the dropdown
06:50<Wolf01>It finds vehicles for ELRL
06:50<Wolf01>But no ELRL is available to build
06:52<Wolf01>https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/blob/road-and-tram-types/src/road.cpp#L261 and below
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07:09<Samu>LordAro: https://imgur.com/OOWuVIU
07:10<LordAro>woo
07:11<Samu>this is on ratt, the today's version
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07:22<andythenorth>such ships
07:22<andythenorth>such pixels
07:22<andythenorth>such drawing
07:26<Samu>hmm those unspool, roadhog, dock and stuff are not available on toyland, is that intended?
07:26<Samu>wait, i'm not doing the right thing
07:29<Samu>forget about it
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08:01<Samu>uhm... ratt isn't 100% based on r27968, or is it?
08:01<Samu>:(
08:04<Samu>i'm getting different start dates for ai companies
08:04<Samu>t.t
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08:13<Samu>how random is random functions for start dates? :(
08:13<Samu>ai start dates
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09:17<Samu> there's something about random that isn't deterministic
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09:32<Samu>random isn't deterministic... https://imgur.com/gelGRDZ
09:32<Samu>different manager faces :(
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09:40<LordAro>Samu: is that the same game?
09:40<LordAro>afaik random is only supposed to be deterministic per game (seed)
09:43<Samu>3 different openttd builds, 2 of each
09:44<Samu>same game yes
09:48<Samu>there's something amiss
09:48<Samu>hmm... in multiplayer, everyone is in sync
09:49<Samu>but in separate singleplayer, something goes out of sync
09:50<Samu>i'm trying to test in exactly equal single player conditions
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09:56<Samu>on new year... something else goes even more out of sync
09:57<Samu>https://imgur.com/UHpdMMr
09:57<Samu>one of the builds got 15 companies, all other builds don't
09:58<Samu>and now everyone is on their different path
09:58<Samu>3 months after
09:58<Samu>t.t
09:59<Samu>something is affecting company start date
09:59<Samu>ai company start date
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10:18<Samu>oh well... it's not really important, it would just be nice if it could replicate
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10:41<Samu>uhm... i suspect there is another AI issue with ratt
10:41<Samu>must investigate
10:41<Samu>Wolf01:
10:42<Wolf01>No
10:43<Samu>hard to properly identify it, but something is different
10:43<Samu>https://imgur.com/Tu8keWE
10:44<Samu>1.7.2 + r27968 differ from ratt
10:45<Samu>but... I could be wrong, after all ratt isn't exactly based on 27968
10:45<Samu>and random isn't 100% deterministic
10:46<Wolf01>So what do you want me to fix? The random?
10:47<Samu>no, i'm only wondering what exactly happened, will be hard
10:47<Samu>wondering if it's a real ratt problem or not
10:47<Wolf01>I can't know either
10:48<Samu>nonocab decided to skip road construction, that is odd
10:50<Samu>it's an AI that evaluates costs, pre-determines profits, etc... so, maybe it's getting wrong values for his predictions?
10:50<Samu>Wormnest: HALP
10:51<Wormnest>Hi Samu
10:51<Samu>so, uh... hard to get Wormnest involved in this
10:51<Samu>how to explain
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10:53<Samu>i'm testing nonocab on RATT, which is a openttd being done by Wolf01 that makes an overhaul of roads and trams
10:54<Samu>the AIs should behave the same as in trunk
10:54<Samu>i notice nonocab making different decisions in ratt though
10:55<Wormnest>Did you turn on debug messages for nonocab
10:55<Samu>oh, nop, maybe i should
10:56<Wormnest>Yes you get a lot more info, be aware adding debug messages also changes what it does
10:57<Samu>in trunk and 1.7.2 he made the same stuff, as well as all other ais, but in ratt, they seem to have their own way... the issue is determining if it was some road function that the ais use getting different results in ratt than in 1.7.2/trunk
10:57<Samu>ie. a bug in ratt?
10:58<Samu>ok will try debug
11:06<Samu>hole crap, it's printing the entire estimations, woah, pretty
11:10<Wolf01>Fuck I found the bug... it's called "TODO"
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>those are the worst
11:10<Wolf01>this->SetWidgetDisabledState(WID_TN_TRAMS, !CanBuildRoadTypeInfrastructure(RoadTypeIdentifier(ROADTYPE_TRAM, ROADSUBTYPE_NORMAL), _local_company)); //TODO: should loop through all tramtypes
11:11<Wolf01>It checked only normal RAIL, but only ELRL was available
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11:17<andythenorth>ha ha
11:17<andythenorth>:)
11:17<andythenorth>I have many bugs like that in newgrf
11:28<Wolf01>this->SetWidgetDisabledState(WID_TN_TRAMS, GetCompanyRoadtypes(_local_company, ROADTYPE_TRAM) == ROADSUBTYPES_NONE);
11:28<Wolf01>Better.
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11:41<@Alberth>better and simpler at the same time :)
11:46<Wolf01>It was the same thing done inside CanBuildRoadTypeInfrastructure, where it was checking the available subtypes against the RoadTypeIdentifier passed to the function... which is good for the dropdown items and other single stuff, but not for a generic check to disable everything
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12:27<Samu>when can i test generic tram set?
12:27<Samu>Wolf01: andythenorth
13:00*andythenorth refactoring Unsinkable Sam
13:04<Samu>i'm dumping nonocab log when playing 1.7.2 vs ratt vs r27968, for 100 years, if possible, in fast forward then will do a diff on the log, hopefully it can manage megabyte files
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13:13<Samu>the ultimate test for RATT, muahaha
13:14<Samu>it's been 20 years, still outputing the same logs
13:15<Samu>i think i managed how to make openttd replicate the exact same stuff in multiplayer
13:15<Samu>ops, i mean single player
13:16<Samu>requires some .scr file configuration, some command lines for openttd
13:17<Samu>openttd.exe -d script=9 -g -G 0 >> D:\OpenTTD\openttd-ratt-g50f76d75-road-and-tram-types-windows-win64\openttd-ratt-g50f76d75-road-and-tram-types-windows-win64-log.txt 2>&1
13:18<Samu>and inside scripts\game_start.scr
13:18<Samu>i got startai
13:19<Samu>the openttd.cfg file is shared by the 3 builds
13:20<Samu>it's not a dedicated server, it's singleplayer, so i can fast forward the game for 100 years
13:21<ST2>Samu: have you tried to speak it with a football game narrator voice? xD
13:22<Samu>hi :)
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13:26<Samu>fastforwarding speed 1.7.2 > r27968 > ratt
13:26<Samu>ratt is the slowest fast forwarder
14:04<Samu>uh oh, some divergences occured
14:04<Samu>gonna wait till 2051 for a full log...
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14:14<Wolf01>Samu, it's sufficient to check where the first divergence happen, you don't need 100 years of gameplay
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14:40<Samu>diffing between two 50 MB files
14:41<Samu>comon tortoisemerge, u can do it
14:44<Samu>openttd-trunk-r27968-windows-win64-log and openttd-1.7.2-windows-win64-log have the exact same log size, I assume there's no differences
14:44<Samu>openttd-ratt-g50f76d75-road-and-tram-types-windows-win64-log is bigger
14:45<Samu>tortoise is still working ... zzz
14:45<Samu>aha finally
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14:47<Samu>hmm the first difference is
14:47<Samu>dbg: [script] [1] [I] DEBUG: Report for From: Partston Plastic Fountains to Garnway Toy Factory carrying: PLST using engine Powernaught Plastic Truck
14:47<Samu>dbg: [script] [1] [I] DEBUG: Report for From: Findwood Plastic Fountains to Garnway Toy Factory carrying: PLST using engine Powernaught Plastic Truck
14:48<Samu>Wormnest: HALP
14:48<Samu>so it involves trucks
14:49<Samu>how are these reports gathered, by which order, do u know wormnest?
14:50<Wormnest>It just takes a city and then tries to find the best industry connections near them I think
14:52<Samu>first difference happening on line 316k
14:52<Samu>that's past half the log
14:52<Samu>hmm
14:52<Samu>~50 years in most likely
14:53<Wormnest>Either it dismissed an industry or it added one to use that in the stable version was not
14:53<Wormnest>Need to check what´s different near those 2 industries when nonocab is checking them
14:54<Samu>'Partston Plastic Fountains' is not found in 1.7.2 and r27968, only on ratt
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14:55<Samu>i need to think
14:55<Samu>from here on, almost everything is different
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15:17<Samu>according to the logs, the world state appears to be different from that point on...
15:17<Samu>what caused that? :(
15:18<Samu>even on some connections, the estimated number of vehicles differ
15:18<Samu>some of the same connections
15:18<Samu>seems that in one world the production of that industry is higher than on the other
15:19<Samu>sorry wolf, this is gonna be harder to identify than i expected
15:19<Samu>Wolf01:
15:21<Samu>no differences detected between 1.7.2 and r27968 with tortoisemerge diff
15:22<Samu>looks very suspicious, but can't prove anything yet
15:26<@Rubidium>you're doing something not quite right
15:26<@Rubidium>as there are definitely differences between 1.7.2 and r27968 (of trunk)
15:27<@Rubidium>there are no differences between 1.7.2 and r27968 of 1.7.2, but for any other branch there are differences
15:29<Samu>ratt is based on which ?
15:30<@Rubidium>how am I supposed to know?
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15:33<Samu>how is ratt gonna reach trunk status?
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15:33<Samu>:(
15:34<Samu>i don't know the right questino
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15:35<andythenorth>NRT -> trunk merge relies on (a) some testing (b) someone who agrees to merge it
15:35<lighta>hi guys. I wanted to ask where could we do suggestion for the game ?
15:35<andythenorth>forums
15:36<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=32&sid=8beb892f72eafd6872d16418f017db41
15:38<lighta>ty andythenorth just found it
15:40<Samu>andythenorth: is ratt patched upon latest r27968? has it been updaded as such?
15:40<Samu>developed
15:41<andythenorth>the last merge from openttd trunk is svn r27968
15:42<Samu>hmm i see, so it's fair to compare ratt with r27968 and hope for the same result
15:42<andythenorth>probably not
15:42<andythenorth>depends what you're comparing
15:43<Samu>comparing AI on the same replica of the world on both builds
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15:45<Samu>are replays possible?
15:45<Samu>in single player
15:45<Samu>i heard there was a way to look for desyncs
15:46<Samu>brb
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16:01<Samu>As desyncs are hard to make reproducible OpenTTD has the ability to log all actions done by clients so we can replay the whole game in an effort to make desyncs better reproducible.
16:01<Samu>is there a guide for this?
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16:32<Samu>time to give up
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16:55<Wolf01>Samu, I'd expect 2 identical games played on RATT will produce the same output, the same as would happen in trunk or 1.7.2, is it pointless to compare AI behaviour or random stuff between different branches as there might be subtle changes which are needed for the NRT implementation
16:55<Wolf01>You already spotted the most problematic ones (miscalculations and unability to build adjacent stations) and I fixed them
16:56<Wolf01>This night trams will be fixed too
16:57<Samu>nice
16:58<Samu>at 3 am?
16:58<Samu>will be too late for me
16:58<Wolf01>Get the latest sources and compile it yourself
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17:00<Samu>seems that there's no more issues with AIs that I'm aware of
17:01<Samu>tomorrow will test trams better
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17:06<Samu>these subtle random changes that happen unexpectedly
17:06<Samu>:(
17:06<Samu>pff, oh well, at least I tried
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17:32<Samu>Wolf01: What is the NML fork?
17:32<Wolf01>?
17:32<Wolf01>It's the nml fork
17:33<Samu>https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-and ... tRoadTypes
17:33<Samu>https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth/tree/NotRoadTypes
17:33<Wolf01>It's the nml fork to build grfs for NRT
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17:34<Samu>ahhhh, so it's nothing i should care about
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17:34<Samu>trying to get the source :(
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17:40<Samu>https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/archive/road-and-tram-types.zip this is it, the source?
17:41<Samu>nice job, i can build trams
17:42<Samu>first bug!
17:42<Samu>costs differ :p
17:42<Samu>are you supposed to fix these too?
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17:45<Samu>maintenance costs match, construction costs are doubled
17:45<Samu>£71 vs £142
17:45<Samu>per piece
17:50<Wolf01>supermop_work: https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=201038 was browsing the forums, I found this one by pikka, it's nice with poles in the middle :D
17:51<Wolf01>Samu, no, I won't fix those, RAIL costs are the same as ROAD, ELRL costs are the same as ELRD, which are double
17:53<Samu>it's called tramway construction in trunk, but electrified tramway construction in ratt
17:53<Samu>hmm :(
17:53<Samu>oki
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17:54<Wolf01>You could make a petition in the forum if you want :)
17:55<Samu>i don't remember which ais build trams... must see if they're properly building
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18:18<Samu>okay Wolf01, the very few AIs that build trams can't build trams on ratt :(
18:19<Wolf01>Maybe they try to build RAIL
18:20<Samu>trans also builds trams, but for some reason it detects ratt as revision 0
18:20<Wolf01>Try with unspooled loaded and roadhog for NRT
18:20<Samu>and doesn't start because revision is low
18:21<Wolf01>Eh
18:21<Wolf01>BTW, 'night
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