| --- | Log | opened Thu Feb 22 00:00:17 2018 |
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| 03:06 | <dihedral> | good morning |
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| 09:16 | * | riso slaps dihedral around a bit with a large trout |
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| 09:18 | -!- | TheMask96 is "Martijn Zweistra" on #openttd @#altcontrol #openttd.notice |
| 09:22 | <Samu> | eh, dune is back? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7oyrTZxieI |
| 09:26 | <Samu> | A brand new Hardcore Vibes Version is coming in 2018 |
| 09:26 | <Samu> | "k" |
| 09:26 | <Samu> | waiting... |
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| 09:53 | <supermop_work> | so there is a limit on number of switch blocks? |
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| 11:00 | <@Alberth> | o/ |
| 11:04 | <supermop_work> | yo |
| 11:04 | <supermop_work> | i ran out of switches i think |
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| 11:29 | * | dihedral gave his switches packets.... |
| 11:29 | <dihedral> | switches looove packets |
| 11:29 | * | MKultra2u sees dihedral |
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| 11:53 | <@Alberth> | unfortunately, they don't replicate themselves |
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| 11:59 | <supermop_work> | i got an nml error saying it couldn't allocate the switch, and to try reducing the number of such blocks |
| 11:59 | <supermop_work> | i would have thought i only had a few hundred but idk |
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| 12:02 | <supermop_work> | i only added 18 since the last time i compiled |
| 12:03 | <supermop_work> | but i plan on adding many more, like for drive-side specific graphics |
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| 12:13 | <@Alberth> | maybe merge a few together? |
| 12:14 | <@Alberth> | if you have chains of switches |
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| 12:23 | <Samu> | time to inflate the number of clients |
| 12:23 | <Samu> | on my server, muahahu |
| 12:32 | <Samu> | oh, the server also counts as a client, hmm ok |
| 12:33 | <Samu> | so i can only have 63 clients |
| 12:33 | <Samu> | not 64 |
| 12:34 | <Samu> | most played server https://imgur.com/cw3cr8K |
| 12:35 | <Samu> | no cheating |
| 12:38 | <Samu> | wait a minute, the server, when dedicated doesn't count as a client, but i still can't have 64 clients |
| 12:39 | <Samu> | only 63 could join |
| 12:39 | <Samu> | if server is not dedicated, it counts as a client, the 64 limit is correct then |
| 12:40 | <supermop_work> | Alberth: probably some i can omit, but not sure how many i can really merge |
| 12:40 | <Samu> | i better confirm |
| 12:40 | <Samu> | brb |
| 12:40 | <supermop_work> | very few are chains |
| 12:41 | <supermop_work> | the ones that are are typically a sprite stack, where each layer in the stack is a switch |
| 12:43 | <supermop_work> | can't find anything in nml specs that says what the limit is, and if it is separate for switches and sprite groups etc, or if they all the same |
| 12:43 | <@Alberth> | nml doesn't output some statistics about it? |
| 12:44 | <@Alberth> | iirc a switch has a number so you can refer to it, that's a finite range |
| 12:45 | <@Alberth> | but that sort of depends on how many you would need to refer to at the same time |
| 12:45 | <@Alberth> | no idea how smart nml is there |
| 12:45 | <supermop_work> | hm |
| 12:45 | <supermop_work> | well i tried this compile at home before leaving for work |
| 12:46 | <supermop_work> | so i don't have the nmlc output in front of me right now |
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| 12:50 | <Samu> | I confirm. When I'm a non dedicated server, openttd counts me as a client. If I set a max number of 64 clients, I'm included in |
| 12:51 | <Samu> | When I'm dedicated server, openttd doesn't count me. Only 63 clients can join, while the limit is 64 |
| 12:53 | <Samu> | and yet, the total is still 64 |
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| 12:53 | <Samu> | there is a bug in the counting |
| 12:54 | <supermop_work> | nmlc's message wan't helpful though... it didn't say 'you have too many switches' instead it says 'could not allocate switch, spritegroup, etc' 'try reducing the number of such blocks' |
| 12:54 | <supermop_work> | to me that is not clear as to whether i actually have too many, or there is some other problem |
| 12:55 | <supermop_work> | also it is unclear if switches and spritegroups affect each other's allocation, like part of some common pool, or if it just reuses the same error message for the same |
| 12:56 | <supermop_work> | i guess it is possible that a spritegroup internally is essentially just another switch |
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| 13:20 | <@Alberth> | sorry, no idea how that works |
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| 13:50 | <supermop_work> | me neither |
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| 13:56 | <andythenorth> | o/ |
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| 14:01 | <Wolf01|Phone> | o/ |
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| 14:02 | <Wolf01|Phone> | Andy, tried town roads yet? |
| 14:03 | <andythenorth> | no sorry |
| 14:03 | <andythenorth> | ah |
| 14:03 | <andythenorth> | I did try to compile it |
| 14:03 | <andythenorth> | OK I pulled the fixes now |
| 14:04 | <Wolf01|Phone> | I fixed the path separator for the header I used |
| 14:04 | <andythenorth> | ok compiled |
| 14:05 | <Wolf01|Phone> | Also I think I could remove that header from there as I moved the function too |
| 14:06 | <andythenorth> | ok towns are building unspooled stone roads |
| 14:06 | <andythenorth> | so I need to patch nml |
| 14:06 | <Wolf01|Phone> | Yup |
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| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | I have to make dinner, tidy house, do recycling |
| 14:08 | <Wolf01|Phone> | o/ |
| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | but the nml patch is one line :P |
| 14:08 | <Wolf01|Phone> | 😃 |
| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | what are we calling the property? |
| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | urgh, do I need to branch for this? |
| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | how stable is this idea? |
| 14:08 | <Wolf01|Phone> | I called it town road choice weight |
| 14:09 | <Wolf01|Phone> | Pretty stable, the problem is if we want it with this implementation |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | what's the property, byte, word, etc? |
| 14:10 | <Wolf01|Phone> | Byte |
| 14:10 | <Wolf01|Phone> | 0x0 to 0xFF |
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| 14:10 | <Wolf01|Phone> | just like the sort order |
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| 14:14 | <Wolf01|Phone> | Ok, bbl, going to find something else to eat (I'm at the restaurant) |
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| 14:17 | <supermop_work> | andythenorth: "town_weight"? |
| 14:17 | <andythenorth> | https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth/commits/town-road-choice-weight |
| 14:18 | <supermop_work> | neato |
| 14:18 | <supermop_work> | andythenorth: do you know if there is a ceiling on the number of switches in nml or newgrf? |
| 14:18 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 14:18 | <andythenorth> | there is yes |
| 14:18 | <andythenorth> | you shouldn't run into it |
| 14:18 | <supermop_work> | got an opaque error to that effect this morning |
| 14:19 | <andythenorth> | got it to hand? |
| 14:19 | <supermop_work> | but i would have assumed it would be between 10,000 and 1,000,000 |
| 14:19 | <supermop_work> | not at the office no |
| 14:19 | <supermop_work> | should have brought it along |
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| 14:19 | -!- | frosch123 is "frosch" on #openttdcoop.devzone #openttd.dev #openttd |
| 14:19 | <supermop_work> | hi frosch123 |
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| 14:20 | <supermop_work> | unspooled does not yet have choice weights by the way |
| 14:20 | <andythenorth> | you wouldn't be able to compile them :P |
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| 14:22 | <supermop_work> | anywhere i might be able to find at least the order of magnitude of number of switches i can have? |
| 14:23 | <frosch123> | moi |
| 14:23 | <supermop_work> | i've about 36,000 lines of code, on average i probably have one switch every 10-20 lines |
| 14:23 | <frosch123> | supermop_work: there is only a limit on concurrent switches |
| 14:24 | <supermop_work> | frosch123: does that mean number of concurrent lines of code containing a switch, or length of a switch chain? |
| 14:24 | <frosch123> | https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/firs/2079/console <- on successful compile, nml outputs the usage, see 16:49:20 |
| 14:24 | <frosch123> | if you run into the limit, you have to reshuffle your code |
| 14:25 | <frosch123> | bad grf: all spritesgroups, all switches, all items |
| 14:25 | <supermop_work> | i did lump a bunch of cargo and running cost switches together into a long list |
| 14:25 | <supermop_work> | :( |
| 14:25 | <supermop_work> | that is basically my grf |
| 14:25 | <frosch123> | good grf: spritegroups for item 1, switches for item 1, item 1, spritegroups for item 2, switches for item 2, items 2, ... |
| 14:25 | <supermop_work> | items 1..100 often share the same switches though |
| 14:26 | <supermop_work> | i'll see what i can reshuffle |
| 14:26 | <frosch123> | if they share the identical ones, it is fine |
| 14:26 | <andythenorth> | hmm I need to fix Road Hog |
| 14:26 | <andythenorth> | I broke all the AIs :( |
| 14:26 | <frosch123> | supermop_work: anyway, check the previous compile that worked, and see what nml tells you there, about Concurrent spritegroups and in which line the peak was reached |
| 14:27 | <supermop_work> | ok |
| 14:27 | <supermop_work> | andythenorth: just make new AIs |
| 14:27 | <frosch123> | TrueBrain: django is 504 |
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| 14:28 | <Knogle> | !alogin |
| 14:29 | <Knogle> | wrong window sorry |
| 14:29 | <andythenorth> | one day we rebuild ottd web |
| 14:29 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 14:29 | <andythenorth> | I have the VM |
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| 14:43 | <supermop_work> | andythenorth: i sent yesterdays RVs |
| 14:43 | <andythenorth> | I got it :) |
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| 14:58 | <supermop_work> | whats all this then: https://sites.google.com/site/boekabart/sealevel |
| 14:59 | <supermop_work> | never saw that before |
| 15:00 | <andythenorth> | sea level patch |
| 15:00 | <andythenorth> | anyone tried the ships stuff in forums? |
| 15:00 | <andythenorth> | multi docks |
| 15:01 | <supermop_work> | seems like some people are |
| 15:01 | <supermop_work> | all my limited playing time is testing nrt grfs |
| 15:02 | <Knogle> | is the website down for a reason? |
| 15:03 | <supermop_work> | which site? |
| 15:03 | <Samu> | great video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf6h4vPm7Vo |
| 15:04 | <Knogle> | www.openttd.org |
| 15:05 | <andythenorth> | django is 504 |
| 15:05 | <andythenorth> | website backend has gone away |
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| 15:10 | <Wolf01> | o/ |
| 15:11 | <andythenorth> | https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth/commits/town-road-choice-weight |
| 15:11 | <Wolf01> | http://store.steampowered.com/news/externalpost/pcgamer/2361446846767185518 peter1138, we should try it soon or later |
| 15:12 | <Wolf01> | :D really one line |
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| 15:20 | <andythenorth> | yup |
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| 15:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if only there was a linux version... |
| 15:28 | <Wolf01> | Heh |
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| 15:39 | <supermop_work> | so can i add choice weights to unspooled now? |
| 15:39 | <Wolf01> | Yes |
| 15:39 | <supermop_work> | and is 0 or ff more likely to be chosen? |
| 15:40 | <Wolf01> | That's a good question |
| 15:43 | <Wolf01> | I think less is better, but that's random, also FF has really a low chance, like 1 if all others have high values |
| 15:43 | <andythenorth> | you'll need a new nml again |
| 15:44 | <supermop_work> | also is it absolute, like if asphalt is better than stone, will the town rebuild everything to asphalt as soon as it is available? |
| 15:44 | <supermop_work> | andythenorth: yep |
| 15:45 | <supermop_work> | im thinking of cobblestone roads in old city centers |
| 15:45 | <Wolf01> | No, not yet, but you can convert the seed tile and make the town build that one when it expand |
| 15:45 | <supermop_work> | hmm |
| 15:45 | <supermop_work> | town builds new roads to match it's seed tile? |
| 15:45 | <Wolf01> | I'm thinking about storing it another way, so you can also change it in the town ui without relying on the seed tile |
| 15:46 | <Wolf01> | Currently yes, it's only an experimental branch |
| 15:46 | <supermop_work> | i don't think player needs to control it necessarily |
| 15:46 | <Wolf01> | It can change everything but the grf property, that's "stable" enough |
| 15:47 | <supermop_work> | i think there are a few things that might be expected behavior, but not absolutely required |
| 15:47 | <andythenorth> | supermop_work: dunno how to get you a windows build |
| 15:48 | <supermop_work> | 1) in ancient times towns have primitive roads, in modern times they have modern roads |
| 15:49 | <supermop_work> | 2) towns might have different roads in different areas depending on the age of those areas |
| 15:50 | <supermop_work> | 3) town might have different roads in different areas depending on the nature of those areas (town zones) |
| 15:50 | <supermop_work> | 1) i think is the most critical to have, and seems like your method allows for this |
| 15:50 | <Wolf01> | supermop_work: I set the filter so you can't have towns with asphalt road if that's not yet available |
| 15:52 | <Wolf01> | Maybe we could extend the feature so you can set which roadtype could be used as upgrade |
| 15:52 | <Wolf01> | But we have to think really well about it |
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| 16:09 | <supermop_work> | 2) is nice to have, and seems like would probably be possible as is |
| 16:09 | <supermop_work> | 3) i don't know if is needed |
| 16:10 | <supermop_work> | Wolf01: I dont know if we need to get that nuanced for upgrading |
| 16:11 | <supermop_work> | maybe some preference for different town zones, but i think the simple choice weight probably provides enough, and we should play with that first |
| 16:12 | <Wolf01> | We could work it out with time |
| 16:12 | <Wolf01> | I would like to have nrt in trunk first, then we'll extend it with more and more features |
| 16:13 | <supermop_work> | me too |
| 16:14 | <supermop_work> | i think the most simple possible way of allowing a town to build something other than ROAD is most important for now |
| 16:14 | <supermop_work> | just to allow for "ROAD isn't available until year x' |
| 16:17 | <supermop_work> | i think you've done more than enough for this year |
| 16:18 | <supermop_work> | i need to figure out how to set a parameter based on the drive side game setting |
| 16:18 | <supermop_work> | so i can draw intersection stripes on correct side |
| 16:20 | <Wolf01> | That would be nice |
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| 16:31 | <supermop_work> | i am sure its easily possible in nml, i just don't know how |
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| 16:33 | <supermop_work> | andythenorth: not sure, ive just downloaded the binaries that get make automatically |
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| 17:31 | <supermop> | [Knmlc ERROR: "moprv55.nml", line 4527: Unable to allocate ID for [random]switch, sprite set/layout/group or produce-block. Try reducing the number of such blocks. |
| 17:31 | <supermop> | hmm |
| 17:36 | <supermop> | i put in some useless sprite definitions to try to break up the switches |
| 17:36 | <supermop> | but the error still occurs at the same switch |
| 17:38 | <supermop> | [K nmlc info: Concurrent spritesets: 10/255 ("moprv55.nml", line 2293) [K nmlc info: Concurrent spritegroups: 256/256 ("moprv55.nml", line 6136) [K nmlc info: Concurrent Action2 registers: 1/127 ("moprv55.nml", line 33433) [K nmlc info: Concurrent ActionD registers: 17/64 ("moprv55.nml", line 29491) [K nmlc info: GRF parameter registers: 11/64 |
| 17:39 | <supermop> | ^ from last sucessful compile... |
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| 18:18 | <supermop> | is an 'action D register' equivalent to a switch? |
| 18:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | supermop: the problem is the number of IDs it has to remember simultaneously |
| 18:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | supermop: try to put the definitions closer to when they are used |
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| 18:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | supermop: do you have code somewhere? |
| 18:40 | <supermop> | yeah |
| 18:40 | <supermop> | one sec |
| 18:40 | <supermop> | i am currently moving some of the switches around and replacing my purchase_capacity switches with just an expression |
| 18:41 | <supermop> | so doesn't need to be a switch |
| 18:41 | <supermop> | hope that helps |
| 18:42 | <supermop> | " purchase_capacity_xy = (param_capacity*10) " etc |
| 18:42 | <supermop> | tho maybe that still counts |
| 18:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that'll use up parameters, i think |
| 18:43 | <supermop> | oh |
| 18:43 | <supermop> | hm |
| 18:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "ActionD registers" |
| 18:44 | <supermop> | yeah it is a lot, like 18 |
| 18:44 | <supermop> | if i already used 11/64 params i dont want to waste another 18 |
| 18:45 | <supermop> | but it also seems dumb to use up a switch for something that will only ever have one possible result |
| 18:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | technically, there are 128 such registers, but nml splits them 64/64 for user-selectable and internal uses |
| 18:46 | <supermop> | how do you know all this off hand? |
| 18:46 | <supermop> | were you one of the nml developers? |
| 18:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | not really, but i came across some of the internals when i wanted to do a high-level nfo replacement myself (before nml existed) |
| 18:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and i also looked into nmlc when trying to maximise my (ab)usage of it :p |
| 18:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and then some of the things i don't actually know but are educated/lucky guesses |
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| 18:57 | <supermop> | oh i need 54 of those expressions, not 18 |
| 18:57 | <supermop> | that puts me over 64 |
| 18:58 | <supermop> | if we could just build the tractors and trailers of trucks separately, that would save me a lot of trouble |
| 19:01 | <supermop> | [Knmlc ERROR: nmlc: An internal error has occurred: nmlc-version: unknown Error: (IndexError) "pop from empty list". Command: ['nmlc', 'moprv55.nml'] Location: File "nml\free_number_list.py", line 74, in pop |
| 19:01 | <supermop> | oops |
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| 19:02 | <supermop> | sounds ominous |
| 19:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, certainly that error bleeding out is a bug, but it's basically just telling you you've run out of ids |
| 19:12 | <Mazur> | Anyway, it seems openttd 1.7.2 and trunk 27951 get stuck when I try to use: -n [host].openttdcoop.org |
| 19:13 | <Mazur> | Without, they start fine. |
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| 20:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "On Wednesday, Angela Merkel is now in office longer than Adolf Hitler" |
| 20:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (which is probably not a record) |
| 20:59 | <supermop> | how long was kohl in? |
| 21:04 | <supermop> | ok finally got it to compile |
| 21:05 | <supermop> | was able to get rid of a chunk of those x = y expressions |
| 21:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think kohl was around 14-ish years, where merkel has just over 12 now |
| 21:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and kohl only narrowly beat out adenauer, i think |
| 21:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm sure wikipedia knows that more accurately |
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| 21:08 | <supermop> | in my childhood mind it seemed like kohl was the leader of german forever |
| 21:09 | <supermop> | and was notable because as a kid i enjoyed that his name sounded like helmet |
| 21:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, assuming you don't really notice any reasonable amount of politics before age 5, then you could have been 21 and never knew another chancellor |
| 21:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no, 19 |
| 21:59 | <supermop> | im not quite that old |
| 21:59 | <supermop> | but |
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| --- | Log | closed Fri Feb 23 00:00:19 2018 |