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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-02-22

---Logopened Thu Feb 22 00:00:17 2018
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03:06<dihedral>good morning
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09:16*riso slaps dihedral around a bit with a large trout
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09:22<Samu>eh, dune is back?
09:26<Samu> A brand new Hardcore Vibes Version is coming in 2018
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09:53<supermop_work>so there is a limit on number of switch blocks?
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11:04<supermop_work>i ran out of switches i think
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11:29*dihedral gave his switches packets....
11:29<dihedral>switches looove packets
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11:53<@Alberth>unfortunately, they don't replicate themselves
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11:59<supermop_work>i got an nml error saying it couldn't allocate the switch, and to try reducing the number of such blocks
11:59<supermop_work>i would have thought i only had a few hundred but idk
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12:02<supermop_work>i only added 18 since the last time i compiled
12:03<supermop_work>but i plan on adding many more, like for drive-side specific graphics
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12:13<@Alberth>maybe merge a few together?
12:14<@Alberth>if you have chains of switches
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12:23<Samu>time to inflate the number of clients
12:23<Samu>on my server, muahahu
12:32<Samu>oh, the server also counts as a client, hmm ok
12:33<Samu>so i can only have 63 clients
12:33<Samu>not 64
12:34<Samu>most played server
12:35<Samu>no cheating
12:38<Samu>wait a minute, the server, when dedicated doesn't count as a client, but i still can't have 64 clients
12:39<Samu>only 63 could join
12:39<Samu>if server is not dedicated, it counts as a client, the 64 limit is correct then
12:40<supermop_work>Alberth: probably some i can omit, but not sure how many i can really merge
12:40<Samu>i better confirm
12:40<supermop_work>very few are chains
12:41<supermop_work>the ones that are are typically a sprite stack, where each layer in the stack is a switch
12:43<supermop_work>can't find anything in nml specs that says what the limit is, and if it is separate for switches and sprite groups etc, or if they all the same
12:43<@Alberth>nml doesn't output some statistics about it?
12:44<@Alberth>iirc a switch has a number so you can refer to it, that's a finite range
12:45<@Alberth>but that sort of depends on how many you would need to refer to at the same time
12:45<@Alberth>no idea how smart nml is there
12:45<supermop_work>well i tried this compile at home before leaving for work
12:46<supermop_work>so i don't have the nmlc output in front of me right now
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12:50<Samu>I confirm. When I'm a non dedicated server, openttd counts me as a client. If I set a max number of 64 clients, I'm included in
12:51<Samu>When I'm dedicated server, openttd doesn't count me. Only 63 clients can join, while the limit is 64
12:53<Samu>and yet, the total is still 64
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12:53<Samu>there is a bug in the counting
12:54<supermop_work>nmlc's message wan't helpful though... it didn't say 'you have too many switches' instead it says 'could not allocate switch, spritegroup, etc' 'try reducing the number of such blocks'
12:54<supermop_work>to me that is not clear as to whether i actually have too many, or there is some other problem
12:55<supermop_work>also it is unclear if switches and spritegroups affect each other's allocation, like part of some common pool, or if it just reuses the same error message for the same
12:56<supermop_work>i guess it is possible that a spritegroup internally is essentially just another switch
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13:20<@Alberth>sorry, no idea how that works
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13:50<supermop_work>me neither
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14:02<Wolf01|Phone>Andy, tried town roads yet?
14:03<andythenorth>no sorry
14:03<andythenorth>I did try to compile it
14:03<andythenorth>OK I pulled the fixes now
14:04<Wolf01|Phone>I fixed the path separator for the header I used
14:04<andythenorth>ok compiled
14:05<Wolf01|Phone>Also I think I could remove that header from there as I moved the function too
14:06<andythenorth>ok towns are building unspooled stone roads
14:06<andythenorth>so I need to patch nml
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14:08<andythenorth>I have to make dinner, tidy house, do recycling
14:08<andythenorth>but the nml patch is one line :P
14:08<andythenorth>what are we calling the property?
14:08<andythenorth>urgh, do I need to branch for this?
14:08<andythenorth>how stable is this idea?
14:08<Wolf01|Phone>I called it town road choice weight
14:09<Wolf01|Phone>Pretty stable, the problem is if we want it with this implementation
14:09<andythenorth>what's the property, byte, word, etc?
14:10<Wolf01|Phone>0x0 to 0xFF
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14:10<Wolf01|Phone>just like the sort order
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14:14<Wolf01|Phone>Ok, bbl, going to find something else to eat (I'm at the restaurant)
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14:17<supermop_work>andythenorth: "town_weight"?
14:18<supermop_work>andythenorth: do you know if there is a ceiling on the number of switches in nml or newgrf?
14:18<andythenorth>there is yes
14:18<andythenorth>you shouldn't run into it
14:18<supermop_work>got an opaque error to that effect this morning
14:19<andythenorth>got it to hand?
14:19<supermop_work>but i would have assumed it would be between 10,000 and 1,000,000
14:19<supermop_work>not at the office no
14:19<supermop_work>should have brought it along
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14:19<supermop_work>hi frosch123
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14:20<supermop_work>unspooled does not yet have choice weights by the way
14:20<andythenorth>you wouldn't be able to compile them :P
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14:22<supermop_work>anywhere i might be able to find at least the order of magnitude of number of switches i can have?
14:23<supermop_work>i've about 36,000 lines of code, on average i probably have one switch every 10-20 lines
14:23<frosch123>supermop_work: there is only a limit on concurrent switches
14:24<supermop_work>frosch123: does that mean number of concurrent lines of code containing a switch, or length of a switch chain?
14:24<frosch123> <- on successful compile, nml outputs the usage, see 16:49:20
14:24<frosch123>if you run into the limit, you have to reshuffle your code
14:25<frosch123>bad grf: all spritesgroups, all switches, all items
14:25<supermop_work>i did lump a bunch of cargo and running cost switches together into a long list
14:25<supermop_work>that is basically my grf
14:25<frosch123>good grf: spritegroups for item 1, switches for item 1, item 1, spritegroups for item 2, switches for item 2, items 2, ...
14:25<supermop_work>items 1..100 often share the same switches though
14:26<supermop_work>i'll see what i can reshuffle
14:26<frosch123>if they share the identical ones, it is fine
14:26<andythenorth>hmm I need to fix Road Hog
14:26<andythenorth>I broke all the AIs :(
14:26<frosch123>supermop_work: anyway, check the previous compile that worked, and see what nml tells you there, about Concurrent spritegroups and in which line the peak was reached
14:27<supermop_work>andythenorth: just make new AIs
14:27<frosch123>TrueBrain: django is 504
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14:29<Knogle>wrong window sorry
14:29<andythenorth>one day we rebuild ottd web
14:29<andythenorth>I have the VM
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14:43<supermop_work>andythenorth: i sent yesterdays RVs
14:43<andythenorth>I got it :)
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14:58<supermop_work>whats all this then:
14:59<supermop_work>never saw that before
15:00<andythenorth>sea level patch
15:00<andythenorth>anyone tried the ships stuff in forums?
15:00<andythenorth>multi docks
15:01<supermop_work>seems like some people are
15:01<supermop_work>all my limited playing time is testing nrt grfs
15:02<Knogle>is the website down for a reason?
15:03<supermop_work>which site?
15:03<Samu>great video
15:05<andythenorth>django is 504
15:05<andythenorth>website backend has gone away
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15:11<Wolf01> peter1138, we should try it soon or later
15:12<Wolf01>:D really one line
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15:28<Eddi|zuHause>if only there was a linux version...
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15:39<supermop_work>so can i add choice weights to unspooled now?
15:39<supermop_work>and is 0 or ff more likely to be chosen?
15:40<Wolf01>That's a good question
15:43<Wolf01>I think less is better, but that's random, also FF has really a low chance, like 1 if all others have high values
15:43<andythenorth>you'll need a new nml again
15:44<supermop_work>also is it absolute, like if asphalt is better than stone, will the town rebuild everything to asphalt as soon as it is available?
15:44<supermop_work>andythenorth: yep
15:45<supermop_work>im thinking of cobblestone roads in old city centers
15:45<Wolf01>No, not yet, but you can convert the seed tile and make the town build that one when it expand
15:45<supermop_work>town builds new roads to match it's seed tile?
15:45<Wolf01>I'm thinking about storing it another way, so you can also change it in the town ui without relying on the seed tile
15:46<Wolf01>Currently yes, it's only an experimental branch
15:46<supermop_work>i don't think player needs to control it necessarily
15:46<Wolf01>It can change everything but the grf property, that's "stable" enough
15:47<supermop_work>i think there are a few things that might be expected behavior, but not absolutely required
15:47<andythenorth>supermop_work: dunno how to get you a windows build
15:48<supermop_work>1) in ancient times towns have primitive roads, in modern times they have modern roads
15:49<supermop_work>2) towns might have different roads in different areas depending on the age of those areas
15:50<supermop_work>3) town might have different roads in different areas depending on the nature of those areas (town zones)
15:50<supermop_work>1) i think is the most critical to have, and seems like your method allows for this
15:50<Wolf01>supermop_work: I set the filter so you can't have towns with asphalt road if that's not yet available
15:52<Wolf01>Maybe we could extend the feature so you can set which roadtype could be used as upgrade
15:52<Wolf01>But we have to think really well about it
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16:09<supermop_work>2) is nice to have, and seems like would probably be possible as is
16:09<supermop_work>3) i don't know if is needed
16:10<supermop_work>Wolf01: I dont know if we need to get that nuanced for upgrading
16:11<supermop_work>maybe some preference for different town zones, but i think the simple choice weight probably provides enough, and we should play with that first
16:12<Wolf01>We could work it out with time
16:12<Wolf01>I would like to have nrt in trunk first, then we'll extend it with more and more features
16:13<supermop_work>me too
16:14<supermop_work>i think the most simple possible way of allowing a town to build something other than ROAD is most important for now
16:14<supermop_work>just to allow for "ROAD isn't available until year x'
16:17<supermop_work>i think you've done more than enough for this year
16:18<supermop_work>i need to figure out how to set a parameter based on the drive side game setting
16:18<supermop_work>so i can draw intersection stripes on correct side
16:20<Wolf01>That would be nice
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16:31<supermop_work>i am sure its easily possible in nml, i just don't know how
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16:33<supermop_work>andythenorth: not sure, ive just downloaded the binaries that get make automatically
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17:31<supermop>[Knmlc ERROR: "moprv55.nml", line 4527: Unable to allocate ID for [random]switch, sprite set/layout/group or produce-block. Try reducing the number of such blocks.
17:36<supermop>i put in some useless sprite definitions to try to break up the switches
17:36<supermop>but the error still occurs at the same switch
17:38<supermop>[K nmlc info: Concurrent spritesets: 10/255 ("moprv55.nml", line 2293) [K nmlc info: Concurrent spritegroups: 256/256 ("moprv55.nml", line 6136) [K nmlc info: Concurrent Action2 registers: 1/127 ("moprv55.nml", line 33433) [K nmlc info: Concurrent ActionD registers: 17/64 ("moprv55.nml", line 29491) [K nmlc info: GRF parameter registers: 11/64
17:39<supermop>^ from last sucessful compile...
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18:18<supermop>is an 'action D register' equivalent to a switch?
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: the problem is the number of IDs it has to remember simultaneously
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: try to put the definitions closer to when they are used
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18:35<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: do you have code somewhere?
18:40<supermop>one sec
18:40<supermop>i am currently moving some of the switches around and replacing my purchase_capacity switches with just an expression
18:41<supermop>so doesn't need to be a switch
18:41<supermop>hope that helps
18:42<supermop>" purchase_capacity_xy = (param_capacity*10) " etc
18:42<supermop>tho maybe that still counts
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>that'll use up parameters, i think
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>"ActionD registers"
18:44<supermop>yeah it is a lot, like 18
18:44<supermop>if i already used 11/64 params i dont want to waste another 18
18:45<supermop>but it also seems dumb to use up a switch for something that will only ever have one possible result
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>technically, there are 128 such registers, but nml splits them 64/64 for user-selectable and internal uses
18:46<supermop>how do you know all this off hand?
18:46<supermop>were you one of the nml developers?
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>not really, but i came across some of the internals when i wanted to do a high-level nfo replacement myself (before nml existed)
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>and i also looked into nmlc when trying to maximise my (ab)usage of it :p
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>and then some of the things i don't actually know but are educated/lucky guesses
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18:57<supermop>oh i need 54 of those expressions, not 18
18:57<supermop>that puts me over 64
18:58<supermop>if we could just build the tractors and trailers of trucks separately, that would save me a lot of trouble
19:01<supermop>[Knmlc ERROR: nmlc: An internal error has occurred: nmlc-version: unknown Error: (IndexError) "pop from empty list". Command: ['nmlc', 'moprv55.nml'] Location: File "nml\", line 74, in pop
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19:02<supermop>sounds ominous
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>well, certainly that error bleeding out is a bug, but it's basically just telling you you've run out of ids
19:12<Mazur>Anyway, it seems openttd 1.7.2 and trunk 27951 get stuck when I try to use: -n [host]
19:13<Mazur>Without, they start fine.
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20:47<Eddi|zuHause>"On Wednesday, Angela Merkel is now in office longer than Adolf Hitler"
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>(which is probably not a record)
20:59<supermop>how long was kohl in?
21:04<supermop>ok finally got it to compile
21:05<supermop>was able to get rid of a chunk of those x = y expressions
21:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think kohl was around 14-ish years, where merkel has just over 12 now
21:06<Eddi|zuHause>and kohl only narrowly beat out adenauer, i think
21:07<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure wikipedia knows that more accurately
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21:08<supermop>in my childhood mind it seemed like kohl was the leader of german forever
21:09<supermop>and was notable because as a kid i enjoyed that his name sounded like helmet
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>well, assuming you don't really notice any reasonable amount of politics before age 5, then you could have been 21 and never knew another chancellor
21:12<Eddi|zuHause>no, 19
21:59<supermop>im not quite that old
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---Logclosed Fri Feb 23 00:00:19 2018