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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-03-03

---Logopened Sat Mar 03 00:00:30 2018
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03:40<andythenorth>the small one is size of OpenTTD ships :P
03:40<andythenorth>96px in – direction
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04:38<SpComb>how long is a game of openttd ffom 1920 to ~2020 in real wallclock time?
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04:56<@Rubidium>that's roughly the ballpark figure
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05:28<Wolf01>Even today I'll play tomorrow... 5 hours to update a game
05:29<Wolf01>(5 hours estimated, which are like 8
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06:00<andythenorth>can I mercurial with multiple remotes?
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>so, 7m below surface doesn't suffice for building a tunnel under a city
06:02<Wolf01>Clearly not
06:03<Wolf01>andythenorth, I think yes, but I found the remote stuff wobbly
06:03<Wolf01>At least in my case I had problems updating the remotes
06:05<andythenorth>in svn times, remotes were terrible
06:05<andythenorth>but in git they seem to just work
06:06<andythenorth>my use case
06:07<andythenorth>there's some things that are common to all my vehicle grfs
06:07<andythenorth>for a while, copy-paste was fine
06:08<andythenorth>DRY doesn't apply when you only have 2 cases
06:08<andythenorth>but I have 3, and that triggers DRY in my opinion :P
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06:14<andythenorth>I could just have a dedicated repo for common stuff, and a shell script that copies the files :P
06:14<andythenorth>but it's a bit fragile
06:15<andythenorth>and it lacks the changesets
06:15<andythenorth>I assume hg remotes would solve that
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06:23<andythenorth>can't find any good docs on how to hg remote
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06:24<frosch123>just "hg pull <other remote url>"
06:26<frosch123>i am not sure whether it record new urls in .hgrc automatically
06:26<frosch123>but you can definitely add them manually
06:26<frosch123>see "hg help urls"
06:27<andythenorth>"abort: repository is unrelated"
06:27<andythenorth>I tried to pull Road Hog in Unsinkable Sam
06:31<andythenorth>ok that gets me multiple heads
06:31<andythenorth>then presumably I would just merge
06:31<frosch123>anyway, you probably want to start with a fresh repo for the shared parts
06:31<frosch123>otherwise yuo will end up with the full history of both in both repos
06:31<andythenorth>yes, I didn't do that merge :)
06:32<andythenorth>I'll create something like andythenorth-common repo
06:32<andythenorth>and then I can learn about triangular dependency problems
06:36<andythenorth>If I do this now, then later I will have to move all repos to git at same time
06:36<andythenorth>not optimum :P
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>ok, so this "subway" is probably totally useless
06:47<andythenorth>what shall I call a common repo? :P
06:51<andythenorth>'later' :P
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08:17<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: I figured out the tunnels/bridges now
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>your passenger station might benefit from the second road connection on the other side?
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>also, the problem is not placing tunnels or bridges, but placing tunnels or bridges in tight space restrictions :p
08:21<SpComb>I think that couts as tight
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>not as tight as i want :p
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08:37<Eddi|zuHause>ok, people start to use my "subway", but it's not nearly profitable
08:37<andythenorth> let's see if I can make a repo on devzone
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08:41<andythenorth>lo supermop
08:42<andythenorth>ha the repository magically got created
08:43<andythenorth>"After you clicked 'create project', a mercurial repository will be created automatically and added to the project. This is done by a script which checks for new projects without a repository every seven minutes and adds a new, empty repo to both DevZone's redmine as well as rhodecode installs (technical details in admin guide)."
08:43<andythenorth>^ leaving that here for next time I search #openttd logs :P
08:46<supermop>should i creat a new project?
08:49<andythenorth>how on earth does .hgignore work with remote repos?
08:49<andythenorth>this doesn't seem viable
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>you can have a personal .hgignore
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>wherever your global hgconfig is
08:52<andythenorth>also I'm going to license.txt and readme.txt polution
08:52<andythenorth>going to get *
08:52<andythenorth>anything in the remote repo is going to be brought into the downstream project
08:52<andythenorth>this is a very bad idea
08:54<andythenorth>maybe I should publish it as a library instead :(
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09:23<Eddi|zuHause>so, can i terraform new waterways?
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>need a dock near my cargo station
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>hm, nope, riverbank cannot be modified
09:26<andythenorth>flat docks :P
09:30<V453000>Why is openttd on windows store for 2 euros? O_O
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09:33<V453000>Shouldn't we like, do something about it?
09:34<Wolf01>The "demo" is the game, it states you pay only if you want to donate to the one who published it on the store
09:36<V453000>ah I see
09:36<V453000>that's still fucking disgusting
09:37<V453000>how is it legally?
09:37<andythenorth>grey area
09:37<Wolf01>But to do it in the proper way he should have to modify the OTTD code and put a donation link somewhere, then make the game free on the store
09:38<Wolf01>And at this point we could just publish the official OTTD on the store
09:38<Wolf01>The developer license cost is ridiculous
09:38<V453000>developer license?
09:39<V453000>is there like an entry fee to the store or?
09:39<Wolf01>Yes, to publish in the store you need a developer license, 19€ or so, lifetime
09:39<andythenorth>such boats
09:39<Wolf01>Maybe is it possible to obtain a free developer license for OS projects
09:42<V453000>oh that's not so bad
09:47<andythenorth>V453000: is After Effects still Best Software Ever?
09:47<andythenorth>I haven't used it for > 10 years
09:48<V453000>depends how you look at it
09:48<V453000>as an FX artist, it's really nice if you want a layer system, but some people prefer a node system
09:49<V453000>for me working with layers as a timeline is just so much clearer whenever time is important (always in FX)
09:49<V453000>as an image postprocessing tool it's still very good, but many of the underlying issues come up
09:49<V453000>it eats gigant amounts of RAM in any uses, but for example when you overflow some amount of stuff in the javascript expressions, it just fails to update
09:50<V453000>you can re-render the whole queue but you have to keep the same folder destination, otherwise it doesn't remember the path so you would have to set it up all again
09:50<V453000>I didn't try to script things in it but I guess it would be helpful
09:51<V453000>in the last few weeks I've been trying to replace with Blender's compositor nodes but it's just not an option to do that. Blender gets incredibly slow and just generating the nodes is pure hell
09:54<andythenorth>I am thinking about making some animations
09:54<andythenorth>and Flash is dead, and nothing seems to have replaced it
09:54<andythenorth>so vector animation is kind of...over :(
09:54<V453000>Flash is still the best program there I'm afraid
09:55<V453000>I'd suggest just using Blender
09:55<andythenorth>I just need 2D motion graphics
09:55<V453000>Blender is surprisingly incredibly amazing for 2D animations
09:55<andythenorth>is it? :o
09:55<andythenorth>oh seems that Flash is split now
09:55<andythenorth>in crazy Adobe land
09:55<V453000>you just put an orthographic camera to the side and you're done
09:56<V453000>but since you have all the bone structures, parenting etc tools in Blender, it's great
09:56<V453000>oh yeah or that
09:56<V453000>I haven't used it but I guess it would work well
09:56<andythenorth>Blender is interesting left-field suggestion
09:57<andythenorth>I used to really like Flash, it was completely intuitive to animate with
09:57<V453000>and you only pay with your time and soul for it
09:57<V453000>yeah learning blender isn't the most intuitive road I'm afraid
09:57<andythenorth>my kids want to learn to animate, and we haven't found anything on ipad to do it
09:57<V453000>It's fine for me now, but ...
09:57<andythenorth>like, everything is just crap on ipad
09:57<V453000>ah yeah ipad things
09:57<V453000>I bought one for myself on christmas
09:57<andythenorth>we got the pencil thing
09:57<V453000>I only take notes and play games on it
09:58<V453000>I did buy procreate which is a nice program but in compare to full photoshop it's just a toy
09:58<V453000>yeah I also got the pencil thing
10:00<andythenorth>seems I can use the ipad like a big wacom
10:00<andythenorth>haven't tried that yet
10:00<V453000>you got the larger one? I got the ipad pro 10,5 inches
10:01<andythenorth>nah small one
10:01<V453000>yeah I think you can connect it to a mac(book) rather easily from what I read
10:02<V453000>yeah I think I saw this
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10:58<Eddi|zuHause><V453000> how is it legally? <-- you could probably get him on a GPL violation, if you want to pay a lawyer
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>(note that charging money is not a GPL violation)
11:05*andythenorth implements more BAD IDEAS
11:12<Samu>time to give up my multi-threading AIs, i really have no idea what im doing
11:13<Samu>can't sync
11:13<Samu>or lock
11:14<Samu>code is gone
11:29<andythenorth>Wolf01: this, in Lego? o_O
11:29<Wolf01>Looks more like spintires
11:30<Wolf01>I wouldn't put lego in the mud
11:33<V453000>I honestly wouldn't mind paying a lawyer Eddi, if chances are good to succeed
11:33<Wolf01>But for what? Just put it out of business with an official version
11:34<V453000>yeah that's the other side :P
11:34<Borg>such parasites should be eliminated.. hard way
11:34<Borg>but you guys are too pacifistic..
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>well, there are open source foundations that will happily go after gpl violations, if you sign over all rights to them
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>but does anybody here have the legal authority to do that?
11:37<Wolf01>I doubt we even have the authority to do OTTD
11:41<Wolf01>Ok, enough astroneer for today: expanded the outpost on the exotic planet, made a 3 cars rover train, got killed at 10km from base, made a little rover to be able to recover the rover train
11:41<V453000>I've been ill at home for the last 3 days
11:42<V453000>I have like 30 hours of factorio for the last 3 days
11:42<andythenorth>such ill
11:42<V453000>not sure if not mentally ill
11:42<frosch123>i just finished the f dev gif thread
11:42<frosch123>maybe now i am mentally ill
11:42<andythenorth>V453000: I had a 2 day illlness a few weeks ago, like a fever
11:42<andythenorth>I played 20 hours of tanks
11:42<andythenorth>I got some ridiculous winning streak
11:42<V453000>frosch: :D
11:42<andythenorth>like 30 games no losses in a row
11:43<andythenorth>due to hallucinating
11:43<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Everybody who contributed to OTTD has (under the assumption that OTTD itself is legal). After all, nothing in the GPL negates the individual copyright.
11:43<V453000>well at least I don't have fever :P just some sneeze stuck in head, doesn't want to come out (much)
11:43<Wolf01>Had a 8 day illness a week ago, played like 8 hours the entire week :(
11:44<frosch123>8 days of illness within a week sounds pretty bad :p
11:45<frosch123>V453000: do you want to deal with info@ottd mails?
11:45<Wolf01>The last day, monday, I was in pretty good health :P
11:45<frosch123>currently there is some likely in fact mentally ill for real person copyright claiming random ottd lets plays on yt
11:46<frosch123>and then yt always asks back whether the claim is legit
11:46<frosch123>just give pm a hug when you see him :)
11:48<V453000>how is that related? :D
11:48<frosch123>because pm deals with the mails
11:48<V453000>ah obviously
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a horrible job
11:49<andythenorth>I have a rule for mail
11:49<andythenorth>'select all -> mark read'
11:49<andythenorth>job done
11:49<andythenorth>people phone if it's really serious
11:49<andythenorth>Wolf01: so is enough health for NRT? o_O
11:49<andythenorth>caching crap
11:49<V453000>andythenorth: :D
11:49<Wolf01>I don't even know where to start with that
11:50<Wolf01>Grf code is almost obscure
11:52<Wolf01>Those kinds of callbacks should be executed at request and not only when the grf is loaded
11:52<Wolf01>This mean we should also have 2 kinds of callbacks, load time ones and continuous ones
11:53<andythenorth>presumably it's solved for railtypes though?
11:53<andythenorth>or it's a bug in both
11:53<Wolf01>Do railtypes actually work like you want for NRT?
11:53<andythenorth>I have never found they don't :P
11:54<andythenorth>I don't use them much
11:54<Wolf01>I mean, do you have double powered engines?
11:54<andythenorth>they seem to work
11:54<andythenorth>I'll test
11:56<andythenorth>visual effect is hard to judge
11:56<andythenorth>but seems to work
11:56<andythenorth>it's intermittent for trains
11:56<andythenorth>by design
11:57<andythenorth>power changes immediately on change of railtype
11:57<andythenorth>I haven't got any that change speed
12:08<V453000>ok what in the shit
12:08<V453000>frosch123: :D
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12:10<andythenorth>so how to transport the trucks from here?
12:10<andythenorth>like so.
12:11<V453000>what do you mean how? trainz! :D
12:12<andythenorth>^^ iz train no?
12:13<V453000>smells of fish
12:16<Wolf01>andythenorth: maybe some work on roadveh_cmd.cpp:L216?
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12:18<andythenorth>how does train_cmd compare?
12:21<andythenorth>I'm wondering if ConsistChanged is called when the railtype changes
12:21<andythenorth>TrainController is quite complex :)
12:21<andythenorth>yeah L3305?
12:23<Wolf01>ConsistChanged seem to do almost the same of RoadVehUpdateCache
12:23<Wolf01>I bet we missed to call RoadVehUpdateCache somewhere
12:24<Wolf01>Like when the roadtype changes
12:25<andythenorth>plausible :)
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12:26<andythenorth>in IndividualRoadVehicleController?
12:27<andythenorth>is it L1311?
12:27<andythenorth>not sure now
12:34<Wolf01>After L1403, there you have the new vehicle position
12:36<Wolf01>Or even the line pointed by you, try to put a call to RoadVehUpdateCache inside the 1311 if
12:37<andythenorth>I wonder if we have a test grf
12:37<Wolf01>supermop's ones
12:37<andythenorth>I am afk for ~2 hours soon, but I can try later
12:38<Wolf01>I'll be afk until tomorrow in 1 hour :P
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13:01<Wolf01>Turns out I have Internet Explorer's reflexes
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13:08<Eddi|zuHause>i have some vague memories of using internet explorer 3
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13:16<Wolf01> I don't think the local authority will be so happy about those scars on the asphalt
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14:23<Eddi|zuHause>i remember days when the local russian army went out of their garrison with hundreds of these in a convoy
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14:41<V453000>local russian army sounds pretty disturbing
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>well, there was a saying: "we call the russians our brothers, not our friends, because friends you can choose"
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14:45<Eddi|zuHause>however, they left in 1994-ish
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16:31<Borg>oh Eddi|zuHause .. u must be ex DDR citizen :)
16:31<Borg>I remember them too :)
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17:32<Integer>Hello, I've some forum posts and wiki, but still I'm not sure. As 32bpp graphics has been moved to NewGRFs is there any "official" base graphics conversion project or independent mods only?
17:33<Samu>i just tried to create a shortcut to recycle bin, inside the recycle bin... but windows isn't that stupid :(
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17:50<NGC3982>so, i played astroneer
17:50<NGC3982>really cool graphics, really cool concept
17:50<NGC3982>unfortunately, it was also a no mans sky thing.
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>how no mans sky was it?
17:54<NGC3982>it's 20/80 do stuff/look at things
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>keep in mind that the main No Mans Sky criticism was that things were promised that were not delivered in the final release. where astroneer doesn't have a release, it is clearly marked as "early access"
17:54<NGC3982>that's not what i had in mind when comparing the two
17:55<NGC3982>and yes, it is still true that i cannot judge a game which is not completed. also, they have done a good job reminding me of that when i play. that's cool and all.
17:56<NGC3982>still, it feels like the end product will be something cool to look at, and not so much to do
17:56<NGC3982>but of course, i dont know that.
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: also keep in mind that before the last basebuilding and research updates, there was even less things to do
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>also, why doesn't this game let me build a crossing in a tunnel...
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22:21<Mazur>``1``It's a pity there's no setting for raw industry construction in a chosen place like the processign plants, for solo play, when an industry has disappeared but you want it back.
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22:37<Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure that exists
22:53<Mazur>It used to, but now it's [None], [Secondary only], or [Secondary funding + Primary prospecting].
22:54<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it was moved to cheats?
22:56<Mazur>It's a setting,
22:56<Mazur>Value: 0, 1, 2.
22:57<ST2>and that means: 0 = none, 1 = as other industries, 2 = prospecting
22:57<Mazur>Didn;t think I saw primaries, must have looked wrong.
23:00<Mazur>Ah, 0 is Secondary only, 1 is what I wnat.
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 04 00:00:32 2018