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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-03-04

---Logopened Sun Mar 04 00:00:32 2018
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01:46<@Alberth>hi hi
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02:27<@peter1138>Hmm, so VS 2017 working...
02:28<@Alberth>that's a good thing, isn't it? :)
02:28<@Alberth>o/ andy
02:28<andythenorth>moin
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02:32<@peter1138>Hmm, "No available language packs"... what was the fix? :S
02:34<@peter1138>Clean and rebuild seemed to do it.
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03:09<@peter1138>Hmm, we still can't commit with git can we? :S
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03:30<andythenorth>I can't commit with any of them :)
03:30<andythenorth>probably for the best
03:32<andythenorth>chibi: not just a Japanese thing http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=2784430
03:32<andythenorth>also in Norway
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03:40<@peter1138>"Database Error : Too many connections"
03:40<@peter1138>Nice site...
03:41<andythenorth>yeah, I crashed it
03:41<andythenorth>too much traffic from #openttd
03:53<andythenorth>I don't understand the issue https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6680
04:03<andythenorth>this one looks good https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6664
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04:12<@Alberth>6680 looks to me like he wants to push more goods into the next factory than openttd can handle
04:13<@Alberth>6664 I have no clue what it says
04:15<andythenorth>Paul has fixed some sprites
04:15<andythenorth>it's probably fine
04:15<andythenorth>6680 is invalid
04:15<Eddi|zuHause>6680 is a known limitation of the game
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>industry can only produce 255 units per production callback
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>or rather, per "move to station" call
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>which is run on the tileloop, so once every 256 for every tile
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>+ticks
04:16<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=48156
04:17<andythenorth>as you said in 2010 Eddi|zuHause
04:17<andythenorth>invalid bug
04:18<andythenorth>closed
04:18<andythenorth>I started looking into https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6659
04:18<andythenorth>but eh, it's not as simple as I hoped :P
04:18<andythenorth>I thought maybe it just had a flag not being cleared
04:19<andythenorth>station_cmd.cpp is a complicated place
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, the ticket in itself is valid as there is no indication that there even is such a limit on production. also, i have no clue how arbitrary the limit of 255 units of cargo is
04:27<andythenorth>I fixed this https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6669
04:29<@Alberth>255 is max value of a byte, which looks totally reasonable as max in TTD to me
04:31<andythenorth>closed a few more
04:31<@Alberth>I don't really see why it needs to be higher, you can easily add more factories and distribute the cargo. Game-play wise, that's probably also more fun, as it needs consideration how to do that, and it needs more tiles
04:31<andythenorth>this is never getting solved eh? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6658
04:31<andythenorth>it can be higher in newgrf, I'm ~certain
04:31<andythenorth>I think the limit is 65k or so with production cb
04:32<andythenorth>but I'm not interested in confirming that :P
04:33<@Alberth>6658 is a known bug in the readme, afaik
04:34<Eddi|zuHause>but that is production once per industry tick, not per industrytile, i think
04:34<@Alberth>not sure what you're saying about 65k
04:34<@Alberth>oh, not about 6658 :)
04:35<andythenorth>yeah sorry
04:36<@Alberth>np
04:36<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/119
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: 6658 cannot be solved without switching to proper 3D models
04:37<andythenorth>ok it's known I close
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>... at which point you're better off starting from scratch
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>sprite sorting by bounding boxes gets to a limit when the bounding boxes get too big
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>you could go the CETS way and cut up ships into smaller sprites with smaller bounding boxes
04:41<andythenorth>ships aren't articulated?
04:41<andythenorth>I am trying to fix https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6648
04:41<andythenorth>but eh, cdist and conditional orders
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>is it really conditional, and not just implicit?
04:43<andythenorth>the train isn't going to C so of course the passengers unload no?
04:43<andythenorth>check the orders in the screenshot Eddi|zuHause :)
04:43<andythenorth>hmm my diagnosis is wrong though
04:44<andythenorth>no I'm right
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>how does it ever reach order 2?
04:45<andythenorth>it doesn't
04:46<andythenorth>also can cargodist evaluate through jumps?
04:46<andythenorth>closed
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>it can, but it will assumes either the jump will always be skipped or always be taken, it cannot really do a prediction based on history
04:48<andythenorth>how's he getting snowline 0 or 1? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6638
04:48<andythenorth>invalid
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>i think here it always assumes the jump is taken, so effectively the train will only ever go to 3
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>the rest of the order list is ignored by cargodist
04:50<andythenorth>I loaded the save, the behaviour suggests that cargodist is assuming the train won't go to 3
04:50<andythenorth>it creates and destroys the link, I can see it appearing and disappearing
04:50<andythenorth>so it finds the link and loads at C
04:51<andythenorth>but the link is then destroyed (for whatever reason), so it unloads at B
04:51<andythenorth>oh if it's symmetric, there's no backlink
04:51<andythenorth>due to the conditional order
04:51<Eddi|zuHause>without testing, i would assume it creates the link because a train actually went there, but then destroys it again because it doesn't find an orderlist supporting that link
04:53<andythenorth>I concur
04:53<andythenorth>on the return trip, the trains from B to C reload the passengers that want to go to A
04:53<andythenorth>because at that point there's a C-A link
04:53<andythenorth>conditional orders always were a bad idea
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>i think some of the cases can be solved if the game remembered whether the jump was taken last time
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>also, this specific case of "jump back to where you just came from" order might deserve a special treatment in cargodist
04:58<andythenorth>ok I've played enough FS today :P
04:59<andythenorth>closed 5
04:59<andythenorth>there aren't many 'level up' rewards
04:59<andythenorth>and not enough XP
04:59<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you can advance by ingame purchases?
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05:30<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: the small map with seven towns and two of each industry is starting to feel a bit cramped for space now, trying to get all of the industry chains going certainly takes a looong time
05:33<SpComb>although I made the mistake of leaving the game in fastforward mode for the best part of 1940-1995 or so, when all of the best trains are out
05:33<SpComb>now it's just europaloks for everything
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07:11<andythenorth>quak
07:13<frosch123>moo
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07:17<Wolf01>o/
07:18*LordAro playing with clang-format again
07:26*andythenorth wondering why ships cache non-CC sprites
07:27<andythenorth>given extensive use of reload_newgrfs, it's probably an invalid issue :P
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08:12<LordAro>https://gist.github.com/LordAro/2ba97e450f04875f49f4186625df254b
08:13<LordAro>some formatty goodness
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08:51<Samu>hi
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08:51<Samu>Wolf01: i just had an idea for your roads
08:52<Samu>variable max speed, depending on "weather"
08:52<Samu>snow
08:52<Samu>tropical, sand
08:52<Wolf01>We don't really have weather
08:52<Samu>proximity to local authority
08:53<Samu>rainforest,
08:53<andythenorth>time for a game https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1203469#p1203469
08:55<Samu>so, is it a good idea?
08:57<@Alberth>shippy game thus :)
08:58<@Alberth>Samu: just set the speed limit yourself, as it's constant anyway
08:58<andythenorth>shippy game
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09:03<Borg>ahahahha ;D
09:03<Borg>recession now have extra depth...
09:04<Borg>power plants get less coal.. less electricity production..
09:04<andythenorth>more recession :P
09:04<andythenorth>so what does the grf do then Borg? o_O
09:05<Borg>what do you mean?
09:05<Borg>uff.. recesion over.. :)
09:05<Borg>Net power: <60%
09:05<Borg>but its building up now..
09:06<Borg>or not.. ! :)
09:06<Borg>lag..
09:06<Borg>between coal producution up -> transport -> power plant output adjust
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09:07<Borg>40%
09:07<Borg>lol.. but should not drop to 0..
09:07<Borg>coal is coming
09:07<andythenorth>what does the electricity do?
09:08<andythenorth>is it a transportable cargo?
09:08<supermop>ugh need to enumerate so many cargoes to disallow
09:08<Borg>andythenorth: of course its not transportable
09:09<Borg>it goes over wires..
09:09<Borg>electricity is needed for secondary industries.. for production..
09:09<andythenorth>supermop: o_O
09:09<Borg>no electricity.. no production at all
09:09<supermop>like.. does paper go in box vans?
09:09<supermop>it goes in big rolls on flatbeds,
09:09<@Alberth>make an "allow" list and disallow everything else
09:09<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/polar-fox/repository/entry/src/polar_fox.py#L102
09:10<supermop>but what about 10 ream boxes of printer paper
09:10<Borg>fuck.. catastrofen.. <30%
09:10<andythenorth>paper goes in box vans
09:10<andythenorth>don't overthink it
09:10<andythenorth>mostly you want 2 or 3 vehicle options per cargo
09:10<supermop>Alberth: i think box trucks should be ready to transport as yet unmade cargos
09:10<andythenorth>only restrict labels that would be stupid
09:11<@Alberth>just do containers for everything :p
09:11<supermop>currently restrict classes passengers, bulk, oversized, liquid, armoured, and livestock explicitly
09:11<@Alberth>not so eye-cnady-ish though :(
09:12<supermop>also i explicitly allow beer and fruit
09:12<andythenorth>so I should name the ships in Sam, right?
09:12<@Alberth>yes
09:12<supermop>name them all sam
09:12<@Alberth>famous cats would do
09:12<andythenorth>'Tanker (Small)' and 'Tanker (Large)' are not very engaging :P
09:12<andythenorth>I'll do cat breeds
09:12<andythenorth>and fall back to rivers and glaciers as usual
09:12<supermop>how about Tanker (Samuel) and Tanker (Samantha)
09:12<andythenorth>lol
09:13<andythenorth>yes for April 1 dates only
09:13<supermop>i thought about special liveries on certain days
09:13<andythenorth>christmas theme
09:13<andythenorth>give them santa hats
09:13<supermop>i think one tram might have a livery only available if you build it on my birthday
09:14<supermop>can recall if left that in
09:14<supermop>tram switches are like 10k lines
09:14<andythenorth>so are we fixing NRT?
09:14<andythenorth>or am I wasting the afternoon making up ship names?
09:14<@Alberth>wasting? it's important work! :)
09:14<supermop>name types of roads after famous cats
09:15<supermop>what 'bugs' are left?
09:15<andythenorth>the caching that doesn't update
09:15<supermop>supplies go in box vans?
09:15<andythenorth>which we don't have a repro savegame for :P
09:16<supermop>beans seem like they should too
09:18<andythenorth>yes
09:18<supermop>bdmt?
09:19<andythenorth>yes
09:19<andythenorth>I should write some html thing
09:19<andythenorth>that matches up FIRS cargos and classes, and what they go in
09:19<supermop>what about transformers?
09:20<andythenorth>robots in disguise
09:20<andythenorth>they go in box vans
09:20<andythenorth>hiding
09:20<supermop>small motors and generators could go i imagine
09:20<andythenorth>electrical machines are your choice
09:20<supermop>fine chemicals?
09:21<andythenorth>I would
09:21<andythenorth>are you enabling refit by label?
09:21<andythenorth>or disallowing?
09:21<andythenorth>or both?
09:22<supermop>box vans disallowing
09:22<supermop>so new unknown cargos go in box vans
09:22<andythenorth>if you sort this by cargo classes: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/code_reference.html#cargos
09:23<andythenorth>and then just knock out any which are both Piece and SomethingElse where SomethingElse would look silly
09:24<andythenorth>I allow all Piece, Express, Armoured and Liquid in box vans
09:25<andythenorth>with a special case to knock out Tourists, which are express Because Reasons
09:28<andythenorth>so how do I repro the NRT bug?
09:28<andythenorth>supermop: ^
09:32<andythenorth>I have TrollyBi 0.1.2
09:32<andythenorth>TrolleyBi *
09:33<supermop>you need something with dual mode trucks
09:33<supermop>like mop generic RVs
09:33<supermop>build a dual mode truck in electric depot it will always spark
09:34<supermop>build it in non-electric depot it will always smoke
09:39<supermop>how do i make it so these mail trams dont refit to huge amounts of cargo
09:39<supermop>(same number crates of x as bags of mail)
09:41<andythenorth>ok I've got a save
09:42<andythenorth>supermop: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/phcuwkyql
09:42<andythenorth>and use the capacity cb
09:42<supermop>what if i make reefer disallow piece goods then manually allow fish and food
09:42<supermop>shorter than listing every other piece good
09:43<andythenorth>I just allow CC_REFRIGERATED and then add labels
09:43<andythenorth>hmm, not even labels, just CC_REFRIGERATED
09:43<supermop>no need to disallow piece good?
09:43<andythenorth>no
09:43<andythenorth>should get you food, fish, alcohol, milk
09:43<andythenorth>a few others maybe
09:44<supermop>i have those and fruit
09:45<supermop>dont have beer tho
09:45<supermop>never seen it delivered already chilled
09:45<andythenorth>yeah fruit not beer
09:45<andythenorth>my mistake
09:45<andythenorth>Wolf01: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8871/NRT%20cache%20invalidation%20test.sav
09:45<andythenorth>^ there's a bus that shows smoke even on electric
09:46<andythenorth>it's accurately changing power
09:46<andythenorth>so I'd guess cache invalidation is called whereever the power change is called
09:46<supermop>to be fair i was just going to make dual mode trucks have no effect as work around
09:46<andythenorth>nah we need to fix
09:46<Wolf01>Mmmh
09:47<supermop>livestock vans - should they carry anything else?
09:47<Wolf01>I thought that cache thing was sufficient
09:47<supermop>fmsp?
09:48<andythenorth>no just livestock
09:49<andythenorth>Wolf01: I added "RoadVehUpdateCache(v);" on L1313
09:49<andythenorth>seems to work fine
09:49<supermop>andythenorth: that switch seems a little clumsy for each truck - i thought there was a way in nml to say mail takes up half as much capacity as good or something
09:49<andythenorth>not sure what other cases I need to test
09:49<andythenorth>supermop: nope
09:50<supermop>"By default, passenger capacity is 4x, and mail/goods capacity 2x larger than capacity for other cargoes. The capacity set here is used for the default (i.e. first refittable) cargo. Use the cargo_capacity callback to avoid this effect."
09:50<andythenorth>supermop: to be precise, you just need to do this https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VehicleRefitting
09:50<supermop>i am not getting that 2x effect
09:50<andythenorth>read the docs from frosch123 to understand why (all of them) :P
09:50<andythenorth>or just use the solution I gave :)
09:52<supermop>oof
09:53<andythenorth>Wolf01: https://gist.github.com/andythenorth/714d522c9c135c66cc3e96f81a81cba3
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09:54<Wolf01>Yes, does that fix something or things work even without it?
09:55<andythenorth>it fixes the issue in the savegame I linked
09:55<andythenorth>I don't know if it's wise or good, but it looks comparable to the train fix
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09:56<Wolf01>Push it
09:56<Wolf01>Let samu test the game performance with and without it ;)
10:00<andythenorth>https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/commits/road-and-tram-types
10:00<andythenorth>done
10:00<supermop>whats left
10:01<Wolf01>Merge into trunk
10:01<supermop>are we doing town roads or no?
10:02<Wolf01>Not yet, but we can prepare stuff for it
10:02<supermop>ok i'll leave it commented out then
10:04<Wolf01>Maybe with some help to refine it we might even push it
10:05<andythenorth>town roads no
10:05<andythenorth>not now
10:05<andythenorth>I'm hoping this cache invalidation is the last blocking bug
10:05<andythenorth>and then maybe $someone will help release
10:05<Samu>test?
10:10<Samu>what am I testing, sorry wasn't paying attention
10:14<Wolf01>Do you know you can read the chat history, don't you?
10:19<andythenorth>now what shall I do?
10:20<Samu>do this https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6679
10:21<andythenorth>hmm
10:21<andythenorth>doesn't get my grf finished :P
10:22<andythenorth>I need to fix the freighters, big mess
10:22*andythenorth busy busy
10:23<Samu>save good performing AIs!
10:23<Samu>don't bankrupt them for working way too well
10:26<Samu>question, will you eventually drop support for Original ship pathfinder?
10:26<Samu>it's extremelly slow after a certain number of ships
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10:29<Samu>i'm still testing NoNoCAB with Original pathfinder, it started on 26th February, and it's 4th March already, with no end in sight
10:29<Samu>testing for 100 years
10:29<Samu>still 17 years away
10:30<Samu>5000 ships
10:31<Samu>@calc (100/7)*17
10:31<@DorpsGek>Samu: 242.857142857
10:31<Samu>ops
10:32<Samu>@calc ((100-17)/7)*100
10:32<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1185.71428571
10:32<Samu>grr i fail at math
10:33<Samu>@calc (100-17)/7
10:33<@DorpsGek>Samu: 11.8571428571
10:33<Samu>100/((100-17)/7)
10:33<Samu>@calc 100/((100-17)/7)
10:33<@DorpsGek>Samu: 8.43373493976
10:34<Samu>so it will end on 6th Match
10:34<Samu>March
11:03<ATMunn>so i recently started a new save
11:03<ATMunn>and i've made a bit of a disaster that I'm not sure how to fix
11:03<ATMunn>basically, i was expanding my rail line to include a forest and a sawmill
11:04<ATMunn>but i forgot to actually expand the tracks to include the station by the sawmill, so there ended up being a bunch of wood left in a different station
11:04<ATMunn>but now the problem is, the station by the sawmill is one tile too far away, and so nothing was actually delivered...
11:04<ATMunn>and it's right by a slope, so it's not very easy to move it closer
11:06<andythenorth>station walk?
11:06<ATMunn>here's a screenshot: https://puu.sh/zArc7/0fd3882cf2.png
11:06<ATMunn>?
11:07<andythenorth>that station covers the sawmill?
11:07<andythenorth>Bufingburg Woods should cover the mill
11:07<andythenorth>it's only 2 tiles away
11:07<ATMunn>it doesn't for some reason
11:07<andythenorth>screenshot with the accepted cargos?
11:08<ATMunn>https://puu.sh/zArfm/d9cbc55304.png
11:11<andythenorth>ATMunn: that's odd :o any newgrfs?
11:11<ATMunn>nope
11:12<ATMunn>actually there's one that i have for some reason
11:12<ATMunn>"BigGUI 2.0.0"
11:13<ATMunn>but i don't see how that should interfere
11:15<Wolf01>Station walk might solve your issue
11:15<Wolf01>Also you can put the station on slope if you want
11:15<Wolf01>Even one track up and one down
11:15<Wolf01>Also tea time
11:23<andythenorth>weird issue
11:31<ATMunn>station walk?
11:32<ATMunn>oh i didn't realize stations could go on slopes
11:33<andythenorth>station walk is adding tiles
11:33<andythenorth>you can get newgrfs designed for it
11:33<andythenorth>you can also ctrl-click when building to join stations together
11:33<andythenorth>with gaps
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>when stations still needed to be rectangles, usually you would add truck or bus stops to extend the range
11:42<Wolf01>https://i1.wp.com/www.brothers-brick.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/silotruck_1.jpg?resize=632%2C474&ssl=1 andythenorth, silo truck
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>so you would add a bus stop, then a truck stop, then delete the bus stop and add another, and then delete the truck stop and add another, ...
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>this two-step motion was called "walking"
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>it's now much easier
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>with non-rectangular stations and ctrl+click to place disjoint station tiles
11:47<andythenorth>nice truck Wolf01
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12:00<ATMunn>is this a good junction? https://puu.sh/zAsTW/b08524df61.png
12:01<ATMunn>(my trains drive on the right btw)
12:01<Wolf01>Not enough space for waiting, trains will occupy the junction
12:02<Wolf01>Also since they are PBS you can just remove the signals on the exit paths
12:02<ATMunn>ok
12:03<Wolf01>With PBS the reservation clears itself as soon as the last train car leaves a tile
12:03<ATMunn>i assume pbs means path signals
12:03<Wolf01>Yes
12:04<ATMunn>ok
12:04<ATMunn>so wait, i don't quite see what i need to do to fix it
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12:06<Wolf01>https://wiki.openttdcoop.org/File:Pbs_terminus.jpg look at the "missing" signals on the extis track
12:07<Wolf01>If you put one signal near the junction, a train will wait on the junction blocking it if the exit track is busy
12:07<ATMunn>ah
12:07<Wolf01>Without signals, a train should wait on the piece of track and then other trains can enter the station
12:10<ATMunn>so is this better? https://puu.sh/zAten/682903d794.png
12:10<Wolf01>A bit better, yes
12:11<@Alberth>one-way path signals reduces a lot of confusion
12:11<Wolf01>There is still to little space between the station and the main junction, the diamond junction in front of the station could go
12:11<ATMunn>ok
12:12<@Alberth>you do need a signal after the platform
12:12<@Alberth>terminus doesn't as there is no "after"
12:14<@Alberth>right now, pbs claims a path up to the next signal, so it blocks the junction after the platform now
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12:36<ATMunn>gah i don't know what im doing
12:36<ATMunn>i ended up putting all the signals back out of confusion >_>
12:36<ATMunn>i did remove the junction in front of the station though
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16:11<Eddi|zuHause>why does music in odd meters fascinate me so much?
16:12<supermop>because its different?
16:12<supermop>you mean stuff like 'take 5' or like non-western music
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>in transport fever there's a song in 5/4, and in Europa Universalis there's lots of songs in 7/4, also in stellaris
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16:14<supermop>idk if ive actually ever consciously heard anything in 7/4
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-mr3vpqP6o
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16:21<Eddi|zuHause>https://youtu.be/2NnGkpn2spM?t=160 <-- example of 7/4
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>could also be 7/8
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i think that one is better described as 7/8
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16:29<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkvsgxIELm8 <-- this one is similar meter
16:33<supermop>when i do "default_cargo_type: [WOOD];"
16:33<supermop>i get error that 'This expression can not be assigned to a parameter'
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds wrong
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>[WOOD] is a list containing the item WOOD
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>whereas "default<whatever>" would be expected as one single item
16:36<supermop>so just remove the [ ]?
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>yeah
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ycl0vpbMfWw <-- i can't really decipher what meter this is in, but it sounds a bit too hasty for proper 4/4 or 2/4
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjekzZaRUXs <- and another example in 7
16:47<Wolf01>'night
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16:52<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqv0pjkX-oo <-- and this one is particularly crazy as if it has two meters competing with each other
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>there's one 4/4 beat and one 6/8 beat, and at different parts of the song one dominates the other
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17:06<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMh6dYInfZI <-- and this one is "proper" 7/4
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20:56<Rygrass>Hi would anyone be able to tell me how i would tell my dedicated server to use a different config file located in another DIR ( Currently using windows )
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21:07<Rygrass>nvm forgot to add -c
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 05 00:00:33 2018