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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-03-25

---Logopened Sun Mar 25 00:00:01 2018
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03:28<@Alberth>moin
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05:02<Mistril>hello
05:02<Mistril>is the server list down?
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05:03<nielsm>someone talked about problems with it yesterday, yes
05:03<Mistril>i...then its not my computer that is at fault
05:03<Wolf01>o/
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05:07<@Alberth>moin
05:08<LordAro>MSU bus factor too high
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07:25<TrueBrain>MSU not working? Weird, as servers are being listed .. normally that is enough to work :D
07:26<TrueBrain>owh, another MySQL Query error ..
07:32<TrueBrain>now I need to understand why we did something 10 years ago .. lolz
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07:39<TrueBrain>right .. this should resolve it ..
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10:05<supermop>hi
10:07<Pikka>ih
10:07<Pikka>I mean "moin"
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10:08<Wolf01>o/
10:09<supermop>whats going on
10:10<frosch123>moi
10:10<frosch123>some greeting is going on
10:11<Wolf01>Disassembled for the 6th time my lego robotic arm, 2 weeks left to have something working and no idea on how to make it
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10:19<Pikka>go faster stripes?
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10:20<andythenorth_>o/
10:20<Wolf01>o/
10:21<andythenorth_>anyone know which sound effects map to which vehicles in ttd base set?
10:21<andythenorth_>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:List_of_sound_effects
10:21<andythenorth_>probably /src knows :P
10:21<andythenorth_>it's in some .h file somewhere?
10:21<andythenorth_>I just want to set same sounds for truck and bus as original game
10:25<Pikka>I had them all extracted somewhere
10:25<nielsm>http://0x0.st/sBJV.txt
10:25<nielsm>src/tables/engine.h
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10:29<andythenorth_>Pikka are you planning any new zellepin grfs?
10:29<andythenorth_>o_O
10:29<Pikka>no zellepins, only portals
10:30<Pikka>https://i.imgur.com/xNxcLea.png
10:30<andythenorth_>:o
10:30<andythenorth_>such portal
10:30<Pikka>tres
10:31<andythenorth_>ships I have been making http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/unsinkable-sam/push/LATEST/docs/html/ships.html
10:31<andythenorth_>I was hoping someone would apply same to zellepins
10:31<andythenorth_>"fruit and veg zellepin"
10:31<Pikka>such soapy sams
10:32<andythenorth_>totally no cut-paste going on there
10:32<Pikka>zellepins aren't very useful though. I did notice ships don't clip any more, I guess zellepins could be made bigger too?
10:34<Pikka>wait, are we talking about hoverzellpins or ?
10:34<andythenorth_>hovering in the sky zellepins
10:35<andythenorth_>not hovering over water
10:35<Pikka>hmm
10:35<Pikka>the hovering over water ones are covered, right? There's the old ones I 3d'd?
10:36<andythenorth_>yeah
10:36<andythenorth_>more than enough of those
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10:46<Wolf01>I can't understand why andythenorth_ is still drawing ships, we already decided to merge ships and airplanes and only use ekranoplanes ;)
10:47<andythenorth_>they are ekranoplanes
10:47<andythenorth_>can't you tell? o_O
10:48<Wolf01>You should put little wings and jet engines
10:51<andythenorth_>tram sound effects...
10:51<andythenorth_>should I use crossing bells? o_O
10:54<Pikka>toyland sounds, obv
10:54<andythenorth_>SOUND_HEAVY_WIND?
10:58<frosch123>use the tropic forest sound for the livestock ship
10:59<andythenorth_>nice idea
10:59<frosch123>well, or just the farm moo
11:00<andythenorth_>will this be the last ever FS? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6689
11:06<frosch123>6666 was already passed, i hope we won't reach 7k, any other interesting numbers nearby?
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11:07<andythenorth_>6767
11:07<andythenorth_>6699
11:07<supermop>NICE
11:09<LordAro>andythenorth_: an actually interesting issue as well
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11:16<frosch123>should we have an "actually interesting" label for gh issues?
11:20<nielsm>what would get that label?
11:21<LordAro>ha
11:21<LordAro>on github this would be a pr
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11:49<supermop>procratinating drawing a car transporter trailer for like a week
11:58<HeyCitizen>how can I place fishing harbour/port/bulk terminal on river?
11:59<supermop>probably cannot
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12:36<andythenorth>blearch
12:36<andythenorth>Road Hog is a mess
12:36<andythenorth>it has NRT support in it :(
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>that would have been better as a branch
12:37<andythenorth>it was
12:37<andythenorth>but I can't merge reliably with hg
12:37<andythenorth>EBKAC
12:38<andythenorth>also I was told by Ammler to never merge with hg
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with hg merge?
12:38<andythenorth>I'm not sure, I was told not to
12:38<andythenorth>I do it anyway, but with no idea what I'm doing
12:39<andythenorth>doesn't seem worth learning it if it's a sign of FAIL
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>if it doesn't complain about conflicts, it's probably ok
12:41<andythenorth>I get conflicts but I taught hg how to use my mergetool
12:41<andythenorth>I can't really see anything wrong with it, except user error when I made commits in the wrong branch of Hog
12:41<andythenorth>but distrust was sown early
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the problem, honestly
12:43<andythenorth>well there are (3)
12:43<andythenorth>commits to wrong branch (user error)
12:43<andythenorth>merge B>A instead of A>B (user error)
12:43<andythenorth>result: NRT code in 'default' branch of Hog
12:43<andythenorth>which works, but leaves a mess and is unused / unusable
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, you can always go back to a "clean" revision and reapply all further commits that should be kept clean, and call that the new "default" branch
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>the "spoilt" commits then just sit there as a dead branch
12:45<andythenorth>nah the bird has flown
12:45<andythenorth>very large amount of refactoring has happened mixed in with NRT commits
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>or just make a "cleanup" commit
12:45<andythenorth>hmm
12:46<andythenorth>the issue is really trying to design against 2 APIs
12:46<andythenorth>how Hog would be if NRT, and how Hog needs to be to load in trunk
12:46<andythenorth>hmm moving on
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12:49<Eddi|zuHause>i would suggest keeping the "design" for NRT (with potentially redundant vehicles in the trunk version), just keep the specific NRT code out
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>under the assumption that NRT will actually end up in the game in the forseeable future
12:49<andythenorth>or that I perpetually play the fork
12:50<andythenorth>ok so maybe I just don't do some specific refactoring today, as it hinges on NRT in/out
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13:17<andythenorth>apparently Hog breaks [some] AIs because they can't use articulated RVs
13:18<andythenorth>80 out of 93 vehicles are articulated
13:18<andythenorth>but all 93 set the articulated callback flag
13:18<andythenorth>do I care about fixing that?
13:18<peter1138>hi
13:22<andythenorth>do I have to fix the AI?
13:22<andythenorth>seems broken to me
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>that does seem to be your job to fix
13:23<andythenorth>samu reported it :P
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>if you provide wrong documentation, how do you expect people to use it the right way?
13:23<andythenorth>and thought it was my job
13:23<andythenorth>it's probably a trivial fix
13:24<andythenorth>how do I && in python conditional?
13:24<nielsm>"and"
13:25<nielsm>if a = 5 and b > 20:
13:25<andythenorth>ta
13:25<andythenorth>that doesn't assign a to (5 and b)? :o
13:26<nielsm>oh yeah python does use == for equals
13:26<nielsm>but = is not an operator iirc, but a statement
13:26<nielsm>so it's just a syntax error
13:26<andythenorth>ha ok :)
13:26<andythenorth>seems to work anyway
13:27<andythenorth>thanks, bbl
13:28<nielsm>hmm, have anyone made a "low bridges" patch to make less-height bridges specifically for crossing rivers, but don't allow other things to pass below?
13:29<nielsm>(or similar)
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13:29<nielsm>advantage would be less power needed to go over and lower cost
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13:35<frosch123>usually people want to make rivers and ships more useable, not less :p
13:39<supermop>hmm should i make car carrier trailer 8/8? all my other trailers are 7/8
13:40<supermop>and cars are 3/8 so the extra 1/8 does not get me any extra cars
13:49<supermop>though i should draw tilted angles for the cars to cram more in... https://www.quinnscartransport.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/6.jpg
13:49<nielsm>sure looks like some of those are being straight up crushed
13:50<supermop>http://www.russellstransport.co.uk/resources/images/gallery/multiple-2.jpg i assume FIRS vehicles cargo is all paganis
13:51<+glx>ah multiplayer list seems repaired, I guess it was an ipv6 problem
13:51<nielsm>nope: <TrueBrain> owh, another MySQL Query error ..
13:52<+glx>oh
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14:24<peter1138>MySQL is an error
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14:40<TrueBrain>frosch123: seems it needs more work than I expected to get GH glued to Bamboo ... mostly it seems we need to make our own API to handle the GH callbacks to work properly
14:40<TrueBrain>not the biggest chunk of work, but it takes a bit of time
14:41<TrueBrain>for now we can make Bamboo poll GH after push (so PRs are review-only)
14:41<TrueBrain>that should not make the biggest difference with subversion
14:42<frosch123>can we have one bamboo job which we manually point at random repositories/branches for single compilations?
14:43<TrueBrain>plans are a bit tight to their repository
14:43<TrueBrain>not sure how flexible Bamboo is going to be in that
14:43<TrueBrain>why?
14:44<frosch123>well, so we can check compilation of foreign branches before pulling
14:44<frosch123>like win compilation and stuff
14:44<TrueBrain>I think it will take me 2 weekends or so to get that automated
14:44<frosch123>ok :)
14:44<TrueBrain>think it takes more effort to setup something like that :D
14:44<TrueBrain>but the question becomes .. do you want to wait with migration to GH for that?
14:44<TrueBrain>we can next weekend move all issues and source
14:45<TrueBrain>Bamboo still checks after accepting PRs, like it does with Subversion
14:45<frosch123>i will be little active next week and next weekend
14:45<TrueBrain>so better to delay another weekend then :)
14:45<TrueBrain>so the weekend of the 8th?
14:46<frosch123>7/8th should be fine
14:46<TrueBrain>I am not going to overly prepare the migration, as I dont have that much time; it will be a bit touch&go .. but it should be fine
14:46<TrueBrain>issue import works, code import works
14:46<TrueBrain>just no clue yet how to make FlySpray read-only in a decent way etc
14:46<TrueBrain>(possibly I just unlink it from the LDAP :P)
14:47<TrueBrain>I like the latest issue import in RC2 a lot .. looks so much better with quoting
14:47<TrueBrain>issue links work too
14:47<TrueBrain>considered fixing revision links .. but no :D
14:53<frosch123>yay, found a task to close
15:01<peter1138>Hmm
15:02<frosch123>if i write a commit hook in python, can windows people use that?
15:03<nielsm>probably yes, if they install python
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15:45<LANJesus>frosch123: look at what git for windows comes with
15:45<LANJesus>and other git distros for windows
15:46<frosch123>so, what does it come with?
15:46<frosch123>i have not touched windows for 10 years, i have no idea why people use it for development at all
15:48<+glx>it comes with it's own msys install
15:48<supermop>andythenorth: are you going to draw car transporters for hog?
15:49<andythenorth>not planning to
15:49<supermop>im procrastinating
15:49<+glx>and perl
15:49<andythenorth>supermop: I'm considering playing OpenTTD
15:49<supermop>but delivering to to the dealer in crates is looking a bit silly
15:49<andythenorth>flatbed truck, with trucks
15:49<supermop>everytime i play something bugs me to get added
15:50<supermop>maybe in my game they are all snowmobiles and jetskis
15:50<+glx>but I usually just use github app
15:50<andythenorth>https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/3d/d4/7e/3dd47e16e357385da62bff1ae92037f9.jpg
15:51<supermop>my truck cabs are too tall to go on a flatbed
15:51<supermop>https://www.quinnscartransport.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/6.jpg
15:51<supermop>dreading drawing nose up and nose down angles for cars
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15:54<supermop>this is how we deliver new trucks here:
15:54<supermop>https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1DPwptq_y4A/maxresdefault.jpg
15:55<andythenorth>easy then :)
15:55<andythenorth>just pile some sprites together
15:55<supermop>pixels dont take to a 15 degree rotation so easy
15:56<supermop>my have to model, render, then trace
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15:56<Eddi|zuHause>that windshield does not look safe
15:56<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: thats bothering me too
16:08<supermop>so a 9/8 trailer will glitch, but i wonder if i can make a 1+8 articulated, where the 1 has its angle matched to the following 8 by using the curv_info_cur_next
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>*cough*CETS*cough*
16:08<supermop>exactly
16:09<supermop>might be overkill just to fit 3 cars per level though
16:10<andythenorth>BAD FEATURES :)
16:10<supermop>FEAT_BADFEAT
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16:11<supermop>i was going to do that already for the part of the transported that overhangs the cab, but then i notices that this part is attached to the cab itself, not the trailer irl
16:11<Pikka>fab features
16:11<supermop>FEAT_FAB
16:15<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: do you point to your special angles by just switching to a different sprite group based on curve info?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>well, not the curve_info variable but the more flexible var62
16:17<supermop>i guess the template will need to be a bit odd to to match the following part
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16:18<Eddi|zuHause>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pystey9tu <-- this is the essential core logic of CETS
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>where "SLICE" is +1, 0 or -1, depending on which part is active
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16:21<supermop>oh yeah, will need to account for relative height too
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>from the bottom up it first checks whether we're in the GUI or on the normal map, then it checks the curve, and then it checks the height
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>if anything is odd, it falls back to drawing the full sprite on the center part, and invisible sprites on the other parts
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>if everything is straight, it draws the vehicle in 3 separate parts ("slices") to avoid clipping
16:23<andythenorth>should I BAD FEATURES? o_O
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>and if the curve conditions are met, it draws the angled sprites
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there are no BAD FEATURES, only unmaintainable implementations
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16:25<Eddi|zuHause>the angled sprites are also drawn as one single sprite on the center vehicle, the others invisible
16:25<andythenorth>no no, some features are BAD
16:25<andythenorth>running sounds :P
16:25<andythenorth>Head-End Power
16:25<andythenorth>auto-upgrading stats without changing ID :P
16:25<supermop>i do that one
16:26<Pikka>auto-downgrading stats without changing ID? ;)
16:26<supermop>rust
16:26<andythenorth>Pikka: worth trying I think
16:27<andythenorth>I liked supermop's idea for Horse
16:27<supermop>turn off breakdowns but have trucks loose hp as they get old
16:27<andythenorth>if only mail cars in train, all mail cars are red
16:27<supermop>if some mail and some pax, they are br blue
16:28<supermop>if mixed freight, they are whatever
16:28<Pikka>sounds dangerously "realistic"
16:28<supermop>only use i can think of for that property
16:28<andythenorth>it's quite silly
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16:29<andythenorth>might be better to 2CC them if only mail
16:29<supermop>andythenorth: thats basically what i meant
16:29<andythenorth>hmm, in colour menu, mail cars are 'passenger' :P
16:29<supermop>not literally have to be red
16:29<andythenorth>colour menu is stupid :)
16:30<supermop>indeed it is
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>how do you distinguish "everything is mail" with front and other engines in the chain?
16:30<andythenorth>there's some prop for it
16:30<andythenorth>var /s
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>and what's with mail wagons refitted to valuables?
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>or other "express" cargos?
16:31<andythenorth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Vehicles#Consist_cargo_.2842.29
16:31<andythenorth>most common cargo type *isn't* pax?
16:31<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: most_common_refit
16:31<andythenorth>or rather, special case for common refit *is* pax
16:31<andythenorth>it's daft but eh
16:32<supermop>most_common_refit is for class, not cargo
16:32<andythenorth>still works
16:32<supermop>if most common is CC_PASSENGERS, make mail same colors as passengers
16:32<andythenorth>ye
16:32<supermop>else, some other color
16:33<supermop>i find it backwards that you set wagon color based on locomotive type
16:33<supermop>instead of locomotive color based on wagon type
16:33<supermop>which seems like the more natural case
16:33<andythenorth>colour settings are ass backwards anyway
16:34<supermop>ofc a newgrf can do it for you, but when playing the vanilla game, id rather have a black kirby paul and grey sh30 for freight
16:34<supermop>and 1cc for passengers
16:34<andythenorth>supermop: procrastination http://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/167-parcels-traffic-in-br-days
16:35<supermop>or whatever else i choose in color menu
16:35<supermop>andythenorth: i think you sent me that before
16:35<supermop>ended up reading essentially the whole site
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>lots of things in this game are backwards
16:38<Pikka>mostly tank engines
16:41<andythenorth>supermop: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/11100-mk2-bg-full-brake/
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16:47<andythenorth>also bed
16:47<andythenorth>bye
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16:48<supermop>hmm with 5 or 6 cars on the trailer, recoloring might have to get redundant
16:49<supermop>layer 1 being lower deck, l2 being lower cars, 3 being upper deck, and 4 being upper cars
16:50<supermop>3 cars per sprite: 1cc, 2cc, ???
16:50<supermop>3rd can be purple i guess
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17:06<Eddi|zuHause>you can have more than 2 recolours, if you generate the appropriate recolour maps
17:07<supermop>past the 3rd (purple) i think i might run low of good bits of the pallet to use
17:08<supermop>not a big deal for the carrier, as the trailer itself wont use many colors
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>you can use the magic pink or color cycle areas, as long as you recolour them to proper colours in all cases
17:08<Pikka>TBH though you could make every car carrier look identical and no-one would really mind. I don't think the ones in NARS did anything fancy and they looked fine.
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>it just gets tricky to actually draw with these
17:09<supermop>Pikka: this grf is really for my own insane navel gazing than any real audience at this point
17:10<Pikka>fo sho
17:10<supermop>last week i worked out how to make slag glow less as is cools, im sure no one else is asking for that
17:11<supermop>seeing as slag is only in one firs economy, and even andy doesn't have sprites for it in any of his vehicle sets
17:11<Pikka>mmm, slag
17:12<supermop>now i need to draw slag ladles that tip to unload
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>i think the problem with that will be that you can't distingusih loading from unloading
17:17<supermop>you can
17:20<supermop>vehicle_is_unloading
17:20<supermop>"Value is 1 if the vehicle is unloading at a station and has not yet started loading new cargo. "
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>that must be new
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>well "new"
17:23<supermop>i was surprised when i first saw it
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>well we did come accross this problem once or twice
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>must have been that one time we decided to implement a solution
17:43<supermop>well now i know how to make my 9/8 car carrier work and give all the cars random colors, but I still don't feel like drawing it
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17:56<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds awfully like CETS
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18:24<Wolf01>'night
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22:05<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: is lack of motivation to draw one of the features of CETS?
22:06<Eddi|zuHause>well i never really had the intention to draw anything. oberhümer drew a few of the prussian engines, but that also dissipated...
22:12<supermop>always sounded like the scope was very large for that set
22:16<supermop>im stalling because i don't want to make a new 9/8 template
22:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, i dabbled a bit in autogenerating/composing some graphics, but i ended being distracted/unmotivated to do really anything at all
22:42<Eddi|zuHause>for reason i'm not really willing to go into here
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22:46<supermop>so thoroughly indoctrinated here - giving notice to quit my job, and i am almost beside myself with regret and guilty feelings
22:47<supermop>even though i find my employer incompetent and frustrating, and continued employment with him to be a professional liability
22:48<supermop>all this shame for breaking a capitalist's heart, and i think of myself and pretty far left
22:48<supermop>but that's american (and new york) work culture for you
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22:51<Eddi|zuHause>well my new boss wanted to impose some strict working hours, or else... and i said "then i choose else"
22:52<Eddi|zuHause>so now i'm on some kind of irregular consulting contract with him, instead of full-time
22:54<supermop>i am full time with this guy, but because he is so disorganized
22:54<supermop>it is hourly and irregular,
22:55<supermop>i generally work 40-45 hours a week, nice that its hourly, but the junior employees will get called off all the time when money is short
22:55<supermop>and not work for a week or two
22:55<supermop>no contract, benefits or health insurance for any of us, so i am lucky i have it through my wife
22:56<supermop>the us system for insurance through job is absurd
22:56<supermop>even if you get good insurance, you are then bound to that employer
22:57<+glx>and the medical costs are insane too
22:57<supermop>new job i am taking pay is actually slightly less, but i will have a real contract, and the company has a real staff of other people with steady jobs
22:57<supermop>instead of some weeks only me
22:59<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen these numbers... for european countries you have (per capita) x amount of "private" money and y amount of "tax" money, where x is vastly smaller number, then for america you have y amount of "private" money and y amount of "tax" money.
22:59<Eddi|zuHause>so not only does your system not save any tax money
22:59<Eddi|zuHause>it costs almost double
22:59<Eddi|zuHause>without being any better overall
23:00<+glx>everything cost more in their system
23:00<+glx>university is almost free in france
23:01<Eddi|zuHause>yeah same here
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23:02<Eddi|zuHause>and they even give you money if your parents are poor
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23:02<Eddi|zuHause>(or have lots of kids)
23:03<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: we are stuck with a system that seemed to look kind of good in like the late 40s and then fell apart
23:04<Eddi|zuHause>on the "bright" side, they're slowly taking the system apart bit by bit here...
23:05<Eddi|zuHause>because "everything is better in america" and "free market" and "small government" and whatever
23:06<supermop>there are a few things better in america:
23:06<+glx>same here
23:06<+glx>EU is broken
23:06<supermop>ribs
23:06<supermop>maybe that's it?
23:07<+glx>instead unifying it creates competition between countries
23:07<supermop>we have good barbecue ribs
23:07<supermop>we have some good music - because our system is so broken it motivates people to make good music
23:08<supermop>so we've got ribs and music
23:08<Eddi|zuHause>is your music "good", or just "average enough to reach large audiences"?
23:09<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: depends, but i'd say that blues, jazz, hip hop, r&b, funk and rock are all significant contributions to world culture
23:09<supermop>but all were catalyzed by shitty conditions here
23:10<supermop>punk i will give to UK and jamaica
23:11<supermop>oysters
23:11<supermop>montauk oysters i do find better
23:12<supermop>so i go 3 things that are better in america so far
23:21<Eddi|zuHause>so, a) i have no interest in oysters, and b) i see that all "your" "good" music is actually by people you forcefully imported and exploited.
23:22<+glx>and I'm off, good night
23:23-!-glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye]
23:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see how "look, slavery wasn't all bad, we got good music out of it" is ever a good sentence to say
23:45-!-Cubey [~Coobies@pool-108-45-155-209.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
---Logclosed Mon Mar 26 00:00:02 2018