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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-04-05

---Logopened Thu Apr 05 00:00:16 2018
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01:41<Supercheese>>UKRS3
01:41<Supercheese>wew
01:45<Pikka>lies
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02:17<andythenorth>moin
02:17<andythenorth>Pikka: this pls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Garratt
02:17<andythenorth>and dibble the stats so its 110mph too
02:18<Pikka>definitely not
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02:18<andythenorth>it's easier to play 'what to leave out'? o_O
02:24<Pikka>well definitely leave out anything with weird articulation that's impossible to draw :P
02:24<andythenorth>I found it much easier
02:25<andythenorth>when I stopped trying to include 'my favourite train'
02:25<andythenorth>same for RVs too
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02:28<Pikka>yeah
02:28<Pikka>but people like their favourite train
02:28<andythenorth>BORTS
02:29<andythenorth>hmm
02:30<andythenorth>do I need not-stupid-fast EMUs? http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/trains.html
02:30<andythenorth>mostly so I can include this, one of my favourite trains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_325
02:44<Pikka>mail refit for a generic mk3 MU?
02:47<Pikka>in my 10 locos I had the 321 as the one and only EMU, and this is the mail refit, so it works for me.
02:51<andythenorth>I split pax and mail MUs
02:51<andythenorth>can't remember why
02:56<Pikka>raisins
03:01<Pikka>what do I draw next? 47?
03:01<Pikka>hmm, I need flatcar loads
03:02<andythenorth>me too
03:02<andythenorth>tractors
03:02<andythenorth>47 is boring
03:02<andythenorth>do a hoover
03:02<andythenorth>or DP2
03:02<andythenorth>or kestrel
03:06<andythenorth>if you do DP2, then you solve the 'everyone puts a Deltic on coal' problem eh ;)
03:06<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_DP2
03:10<andythenorth>easter egg: 47 randomly repaints to Lion, Falcon or DP2 :P
03:14<Pikka>yes but
03:15<Pikka>"boring" maybe, but it's still more representative, and people like that. There are still 47s and 20s running around today, while all other loco classes of the era are long gone
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03:15<andythenorth>I know :(
03:16<andythenorth>the most representative vehicles are the obvs choice eh
03:16<andythenorth>I just like to mess it up a bit :P
03:16<Pikka>not necessarily, but people like familiarity
03:16<Pikka>and often the reasons they're successful translate into TTD, more or less
03:16<andythenorth>hmm 'reversible symmetric' has angered my compile
03:16<Pikka>oops
03:16<andythenorth>it was all nice and tidy, now I'm inserting BAD FEATURE hax
03:27<Pikka>is reversablity BAD FEATURES?
03:29<andythenorth>if it's just depot flip, it's good
03:29<andythenorth>if you randomly reverse tank engines on build, that's bad features
03:29<andythenorth>but not BAD FEATURES
03:29<andythenorth>bad features are the same as good features
03:29<andythenorth>someone should make a flow chart of FEATURES
03:29<andythenorth>maybe V
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03:38<andythenorth>when a 6/8 vehicle is flipped, what happens to the offsets?
03:47*andythenorth has work to do :P
03:48<peter1138>If the offsets are correct, it should Just Work™
03:49<andythenorth>I think I have done it wrong :P
03:51<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8922/flipped_eh.png
03:51<muffindrake>The wiki says the initial rewrite of the game was done in C, when was that changed?
03:51<peter1138>About 10 years ago.
03:52<peter1138>andythenorth, it's possible it Never Worked™
03:53<andythenorth>it's possible that I am giving the wrong offsets too
03:53<Pikka>andy: you need a second set of sprites with the same offsets
03:54<muffindrake>What C++ standard does the game conform to, then?
03:54<muffindrake>I'm having a hard time scouring the autohell jungle for any std flags
03:54<Pikka>if you want to use the same sprites, you just need to swap the offsets of sprites 1-4 and 5-8
03:54<Pikka>I mean
03:55<peter1138>What autohell jungle?
03:55<Pikka>keep the offsets and switch the sprites, if you want it to flip. whichever way you want to look at it.
03:58<andythenorth>I'm swapping sprites and offsets
03:58<andythenorth>that won't work
03:58<peter1138>As far as I know the offset should place the front of the vehicle in the right place.
03:59<peter1138>That might not work in non-terrain windows, in which case I'd say that's a bug :p
03:59<andythenorth>I'll fix line 52 http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/entry/src/global_constants.py#L52
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04:12<Pikka>bounding boxes vs offsets?
04:12<andythenorth>yeah, line 52 is not the problem I misread my code
04:13<andythenorth>I need to do something else
04:19<Pikka>huh
04:20<Pikka>it's been a while, but maybe it does justwork... there's flipped by the game (right click) and there's flipped sprites in the code... the latter requires the offsets changing, maybe the former doesn't. so maybe it's changing the offsets that's causing the problem.
04:21<andythenorth>I am reading the actual nml
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04:22<andythenorth>rare
04:22<andythenorth>I can't really read nml :P
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04:24<andythenorth>so I have a random varaction 2 that swaps the bounding boxes
04:24<andythenorth>to 'build' the vehicle facing forwards / backwards
04:24<andythenorth>and then I allow flipping
04:26<andythenorth>but the random variation is irrelevant
04:27<andythenorth>forward-facing vehicles have the wrong offsets if they're not 8/8
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04:28<andythenorth>what if the offsets are wrong? o_O
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>the world will implode
04:39<andythenorth>oops
04:44<andythenorth>seems I do need to check var C8 and provide different offsets
04:45<andythenorth>Pikka: NARS 2 flips 6/8 ok, do you have to handle var C8 there?
04:46<Pikka>possibly
04:47<Pikka>not bounding boxes though :P
04:47<andythenorth>bounding boxes work ok
04:48<andythenorth>the flip is using wrong offsets even without magical bounding box stuff
05:09<andythenorth>yeah checking var C8 fixes it
05:18<andythenorth>if this goes well, we'll get bug reports
05:18<andythenorth>that ctrl-click 'reverses' the engine, instead of changing the livery, in other newgrfs :P
05:35<Pikka>psh :P
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how about people asking you whether you can make more than 2 variants?
05:37<andythenorth>count the number of times flipped?
05:37<andythenorth>cycle through them?
05:37<andythenorth>might actually be the best solution to the long-standing 'choose livery' pony
05:37<andythenorth>alt-click in depot
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, you cannot flip
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>err
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>count flips
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>and alt is already reserved
05:39<andythenorth>vehicle.symmetry_type == 'symmetric'
05:39<andythenorth>returns True for 'asymmetric'
05:40<andythenorth>do I misunderstand == in python?
05:42<andythenorth>nope, incorrectly closed loop
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06:32<andythenorth>Pikka bob http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8923/BAD_FEATURE.png
06:33<andythenorth>such mail car flip
06:33<Pikka>flippin mail cars
06:33<andythenorth>nice thing is, clone preserves the flip
06:33<andythenorth>so the consist livery isn't re-randomised
06:33<Pikka>so now I have to ctrl-click every vehicle I build to check for easter eggs?
06:34<andythenorth>possibly
06:34<andythenorth>mostly it will say 'vehicle cannot be flipped'
06:34<andythenorth>I have more stupidity planned :P
06:34<Pikka>uhoh
06:36<andythenorth>can do quite a bit with 2CC and a fixed accent colour eh
06:36<andythenorth>engine liveries to match consist major cargo
06:36<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Express_Systems
06:42<Pikka>just think of the BAD possibilities...
06:49<andythenorth>I am I am :P
06:50<andythenorth>I am enjoying the decision about which generic 0-6-0 to use :)
06:51<andythenorth>the Horse version is named for this, but is drawn as the J11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNWR_DX_Goods_class
07:07<Pikka>hmm, yes
07:08<Pikka>but also the J11 is GCR, so...
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07:42<andythenorth>did the railcars too http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8924/happy_train.png
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07:51<Pikka>fancy
07:51<Pikka>still not convinced flipping liveries isn't badfeatures though :P
07:53<andythenorth>no set is complete without a flaw
07:55<andythenorth>such http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8925/wizzo_fgw.png
07:55<andythenorth>https://www.jamiesquibbs.com/uploads/1/0/5/2/10527480/1069069_orig.jpg
07:56<peter1138>32bpp extra zoom woo
07:56<peter1138>Oh, it's a photo.
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07:57<andythenorth>nah it's pikka's new set
07:59<Pikka>47s are more of a pain to draw than you might think
08:00<Pikka>should I be putting second company colour in my set?
08:01<peter1138>Put 3 in there.
08:01<Pikka>actually... maybe for the 2-tone liveries. so it doesn't matter if players don't set it, it still contrasts.
08:02<andythenorth>peter1138: add 3CC, please :P
08:02<andythenorth>moar is better, right?
08:03<Thedarkb-X40>I'd like to make a set with Irish vehicles and industries but I don't know the first thing about making NewGRFs
08:03<andythenorth>Pikka: doing realistic intro dates on 20 and 47?
08:03<Pikka>yep
08:03<Pikka>and 25 and 37 :P
08:04<Pikka>Thedarkb-X40: pick a vehicle, draw it, code it, go from there.
08:04<andythenorth>where did 25 and 37 come from? :o
08:04<Pikka>they're not in the 10 locos
08:05<andythenorth>'extra'
08:05<Pikka>but they are in the 20 locos :P
08:05<andythenorth>realistic HP too?
08:05<Pikka>yes
08:05<andythenorth>I'd sack the 25
08:05<andythenorth>but we should do different things eh :)
08:05<Pikka>I like 25s
08:05<andythenorth>yes
08:06<Pikka>also "Type 1, Type 3, Type 4" looks odd as a loco selection
08:06<andythenorth>I should add a 33
08:06<andythenorth>do a 31 :P
08:06<andythenorth>it's a type 2 with wrong prefix number
08:06<Pikka>ew
08:06<andythenorth>I should fix my code
08:06<Pikka>we should all fix our code
08:07<andythenorth>I'm not fixing other people's
08:08<Pikka>https://i.imgur.com/Y5Sehu6.png theoretical tableau d'loc... shhhh
08:09<Pikka>not sure about when/which pacific yet
08:09<andythenorth>is Horse
08:09<andythenorth>not really
08:10<andythenorth>but there's only so many ways to skin the cat
08:10<Pikka>is horse and is ukrs and is original vehicles, yes
08:10<Pikka>all roads lead to pretty much the same set
08:10<andythenorth>is BROS
08:10<andythenorth>is BORT
08:11<andythenorth>I should finish Horse
08:11<Pikka>unless your BRSet and have a Gresley A4 and sixteen variations on one EMU
08:11<andythenorth>and make NARS
08:11<Pikka>you're too
08:11<andythenorth>also
08:11<Pikka>NARSty
08:11<andythenorth>14 different GP38s
08:11<Pikka>yes, I heard that horse had multiple rosters
08:11<andythenorth>theoretically
08:12<Pikka>yes
08:12<peter1138>So.
08:12<Pikka>where's DanMacK?
08:12<andythenorth>GP15, GP18, GP20, GP35, GP38, GP38-2, GP39, GP40, GP40-2
08:12<andythenorth>stuff
08:12<andythenorth>and things
08:12<andythenorth>his wife has been ill a lot
08:12<andythenorth>last I heard he was driving tow truck in Ontario winter
08:12<Pikka>yikes
08:12<andythenorth>like Highway Thru Hell, but no rotator
08:13<andythenorth>also 14 kinds of Alco RS are needed
08:13<andythenorth>NARS is my favourite set though
08:14<Pikka>after 2.5, when all the BAD FEATURES got taken out
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08:17<andythenorth>that too
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08:36<@Alberth>o/
08:38<andythenorth>hi Alberth
08:38<@Alberth>hi hi
08:45<andythenorth>Pikka: doing wagons also? o_O
09:09<Pikka>yers
09:09<Pikka>just the basics
09:11<Pikka>4-wheel everything, then some bigger wagons in the 60s or so.
09:12<andythenorth>:)
09:12<andythenorth>do you manually repaint the liveries?
09:13<Pikka>I'm drawing everything in grey and then doing colour overlays
09:13<Pikka>since you need to do that for CC in 32bpp anyway
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09:18<supermop_work>yo
09:18<Pikka>yoyo
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09:32*andythenorth auto-magically repaints fridge wagons
09:32<@Alberth>pink neon please
09:32<@Alberth>or green or so
09:34<andythenorth>you'll have to zoom :P http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/revisions/16884c1f9f52/entry/src/graphics/pony/box_car_pony_gen_1A.png
09:36<@Alberth>such tiny pixels :)
09:42*andythenorth avoided drawing 14 wagons
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10:04<Pikka>magic boxcars
10:05<andythenorth>innit
10:08<andythenorth>seems to work
10:08<andythenorth>no need to show the cargo
10:08<andythenorth>just open dorrs
10:12<andythenorth>hmm, show the doors though?
10:13<andythenorth>dunno if that looks better or worse
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10:18<@Alberth>gives an idea whether the wagon is full or not
10:18<@Alberth>which I consider quite useful
10:19<Pikka>can you normally tell with boxcars? Unless they drive around with the doors open, which - for the UK - is very unprototypical
10:19*Pikka must went
10:19<Pikka>gnight
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10:21<@Alberth>only during loading
10:21<andythenorth>yeah I drew a gap for loading
10:22<andythenorth>question is whether to also include the doors, moved along side of wagon
10:22<andythenorth>but nah
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10:22<andythenorth>TMWFTLB
10:26<@Alberth>would be 2 pixels max?
10:27<@Alberth>unless you give them a really different colour, you won't see them at all :)
10:27<andythenorth>exactly
10:28<@Alberth>go for 4x zoom, so you can have doors :p
10:28<@Alberth>better just use a 32bpp set then :)
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11:07<andythenorth>hmm
11:07<andythenorth>now I do the really BAD FEATURE
11:14<@Alberth>:O
11:17<andythenorth>not even sure how to implement it yet :P
11:17<andythenorth>mail cars show livery depending on engine
11:17<andythenorth>but engine livery changes depending on consist :P
11:18<andythenorth>it's nearly a circular reference, but not quite :P
11:26<@Alberth>it reads as one :p
11:27<andythenorth>trying pax cars with opening doors right now :P
11:27<andythenorth>looks bad
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11:28<@Alberth>that's less than a pixel, probably :p
11:29<andythenorth>it's one pixel wide
11:29<andythenorth>black strip, looks dumb
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11:34<andythenorth>hmm looks good in \ / views though
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11:49<@Alberth>:)
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11:55<andythenorth>hmm
11:55<andythenorth>how many different liveries can a 6/8 pax have?
11:55<andythenorth>not many pixels there
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12:08<andythenorth>liveries: 1) both CC, no accent colour 2) both CC, 'local train' accent colour 3) both CC 'express train' accent colour
12:08<andythenorth>probably not going to get more than that eh
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12:10<andythenorth>or I could just make life simple and do 2 liveries
12:16<@Alberth>lots of train sets with pax, no need to make new ones :p
12:16<andythenorth>it's an interesting project :)
12:17<andythenorth>there are about 120 wagons
12:18<andythenorth>and only 11 pax wagons
12:18<andythenorth>might as well give them some appearance options
12:19<andythenorth>can we have 3rd CC though? :P
12:24<andythenorth>ho
12:24<andythenorth>I could offset the CC with a remap sprite? o_O
12:24<andythenorth>so you pick blue, 3CC is red
12:25<andythenorth>or so
12:28<@Alberth>pobably
12:29<andythenorth>probably shouldn't :P
12:30<andythenorth>I need some BROS peeps
12:30<andythenorth>they know all about liveries
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12:40<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8926/but_liveries.png
12:42<andythenorth>super realisms http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8927/but_liveries_2.png
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13:05<Wolf01>o/
13:05<andythenorth>o/
13:05<Wolf01>I'm stressed
13:16<@Alberth>less coffee?
13:16<@Alberth>but :(
13:16<Wolf01>Not enough
13:16<@Alberth>:O
13:17<Wolf01>I only take one espresso at day, maybe 2 but only if I really need it
13:17*peter1138 drinks decaf tea these days.
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13:26<andythenorth>livery brainache
13:26<andythenorth>5 generations of pax cars
13:26<andythenorth>might as well make them look different eh?
13:27<andythenorth>that's 10 liveries
13:44<andythenorth>I can only invent 5 so far :P
13:46<Wolf01>Put random graffiti on the other 5
13:50<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8929/but_liveries_3.png
13:50<andythenorth>and if that looks like noisy crap to you, try http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8931/but_liveries_off.png
13:53<andythenorth>and in other colours http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8933/but_liveries_3B.png
13:55<andythenorth>I could do angled stripes, but I think it will look very bad
13:56<frosch123>engines are already kind of diagonal
13:56<frosch123>the wagons could pass as german ones
13:56<frosch123>nothing angled there
13:57<andythenorth>I am planning a euro set sometime :P
13:57<andythenorth>the UK stuff looks deliberately kind of euro-ish :P
14:08<andythenorth>this will do
14:08<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8936/but_liveries_4.png
14:09<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8935/but_liveries_4B.png
14:09<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8934/but_liveries_4C.png
14:09<andythenorth>supermop_work: ^^
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14:42<Thedarkb>What does the current usage in the trains box mean?
14:44<andythenorth>is it % of available cargo capacity used?
14:45<Thedarkb>I don't know
14:45<Thedarkb>I have all trains selected and it just says 34%
14:47<andythenorth>I have 0% with no trains loaded
14:47<andythenorth>so I figure it's cargo capacity utilisation
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure what that feature is that you're talking about. but i'd guess it counts delivered cargo per air distance and time spent at max speed
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>so if you drive back empty it reduces the number
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>if you wait for full load it reduces the number
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>if you wait at red signals it reduces the number
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14:53<Eddi|zuHause>if your track takes detour it reduces the number
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>if the train accelerates it reduces the number
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14:54<Eddi|zuHause>with all that, 34% sounds like a perfectly reasonable number
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16:06<andythenorth>not happy with these mail cars http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8937/post_haste.png
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16:25<frosch123>less windows?
16:25<frosch123>big doors?
16:25<frosch123>like "goods box van" but in pax colours?
16:26<andythenorth>the doors kind of suck
16:26<andythenorth>got the same problem in Hog and Sam
16:26<andythenorth>mail vehicles :P
16:26<andythenorth>blah blah http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/road-hog/push/LATEST/docs/html/static/img/goldmire_mail.png
16:28<andythenorth>original base set just has big black open doors
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16:29<andythenorth>do trains have some kind of user bit I can set?
16:30<frosch123>like "user=andy?"
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>each vehicle has user bits, but you cannot access them, only the OR over all the vehicles in the chain
16:31<andythenorth>can't find them in the docs
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>(and you cannot assume that all the vehicles come from your GRF)
16:31<andythenorth>I am trying to avoid having to do a large varaction 2 checking lead engine ID
16:32<andythenorth>for a livery trick
16:32<andythenorth>probably I should just do the ID check eh
16:32<frosch123>isn't your code generated anyway? :p
16:32<andythenorth>yes
16:32<andythenorth>I just worry about performance in game
16:33<frosch123>it's a binary lookup now :)
16:33<andythenorth>some of the va2 chains must be ridiculous when compiled
16:33<frosch123>try to create a scenario for hash lookups?
16:35<andythenorth>this is the graphics va2 chain for a single freight vehicle https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pndicda2e
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>"position_in_articulated_veh" is that new?
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16:37<andythenorth>define 'new' :)
16:37<andythenorth>repo will know :P
16:37<frosch123>it's not from ttdp age
16:38<andythenorth>there's no nml expression for 'if n in list' ?
16:38*andythenorth might just write a big ugly switch
16:38<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: only 4 years
16:39<frosch123>andythenorth: do you read your generated code :o
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>in other news: free game http://store.steampowered.com/app/203770/ (free as in "now you have to just pay 140€ to get all the expansions")
16:42<Chrill>Eddi|zuHause I want to Paradox's headquarters a while back!
16:42<Chrill>I went, even
16:42<andythenorth>frosch123: only to debug it
16:42<andythenorth>but rarely
16:42<andythenorth>I can't really read nml
16:43<frosch123>Chrill: paradoxcon?
16:43<Chrill>nein, I did a playtest
16:43*andythenorth needs ID of lead vehicle
16:43<frosch123>i heard they started handing out swords to 20 year employees
16:43<andythenorth>how do I 81 in nml? :P
16:44<andythenorth>must be PARENT or something
16:45<Chrill>It's quite the playground at Paradox
16:45<Chrill>don't see how they ever manage to actually develop their games
16:46<andythenorth>vehicle_type_id looks useful
16:46<andythenorth>hmm things I could do with position_in_vehid_chain :P
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>make each consecutive wagon one colour shade lighter :p
16:47<andythenorth>nah
16:47<andythenorth>shift the CC
16:47<andythenorth>rainbow train
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>have a continuous drawing
16:49<andythenorth>I'm probably just going to make every 3rd car a restaurant car tbh
16:49<andythenorth>quite boring
16:53<frosch123>nuts already has zebra slugs
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17:00<Wolf01>'night
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17:06<andythenorth>all that nml for reversing
17:07<andythenorth>but all those vehicles are symmetrical, and non-flippable :P
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18:52<Pikka>evening all
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19:17<Supercheese>Kerbal Train Program... or I would, but no trains mods :(
19:17<Supercheese>none I'm aware of, at least
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>i think i've seen something along the lines of monorail
19:26<Supercheese>yeah that was pretty cool, but it relied on the Physics Range extending mod
19:26<Supercheese>I guess Road Trains are a thing
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 06 00:00:18 2018