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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-04-09

---Logopened Mon Apr 09 00:00:22 2018
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02:26<andythenorth>moin
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02:34<peter1138>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6695/commits/334bcc87e7608246d168ea7507f84c3148c78835
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02:35<peter1138>You know a system is fucked when the API to get version inormation changes...
02:36<andythenorth>it's Apple innit
02:37<__ln__>peter1138: afaik it has changed in the win32 api also.
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02:42<peter1138>__ln__, as I said... :)
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03:08<Pikka>o/
03:11<andythenorth>lo Pikka
03:11<andythenorth>is it yet?
03:11<Pikka>approx
03:11<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/
03:12<andythenorth>it's very brake vans
03:13<Pikka>mmm brake vans
03:17<Pikka>oh dear
03:17<Pikka>my AI immediately fell victim to BAD FEATURES
03:18<Pikka>it thought the Shoebox would be the cheapest loco to run, but it isn't without wires.
03:19<andythenorth>ha ha
03:19<andythenorth>sorry
03:20<andythenorth>not sure what to do about that :)
03:21<Pikka>not much I guess... it'll cope :P
03:21<andythenorth>does this actually do anything? https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#AI_construction.2Fpurchase_selection_.2818.29
03:21<andythenorth>and why are newgrf authors able to troll the AI? o_O
03:21<Pikka>oh yes, I meant to mention that
03:21<Pikka>it doesn't do anything for vehicles any more, but for stations it still does
03:22<andythenorth>shame the vehicles don't do anything
03:22<Pikka>so you should add it to CHIPS :P
03:22<andythenorth>it could lulz
03:22<Pikka>well, it's up to the AI now to choose the vehicles
03:22<andythenorth>probably for the best :P
03:22<andythenorth>CHIPs is in a funny place
03:22<andythenorth>I can add tiles to it
03:22<andythenorth>but everything else is WTF :)
03:23<andythenorth>yexo wrote it to learn about stations
03:23<andythenorth>so it exercises the full GRM spec
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03:23<Pikka>oh
03:23<Pikka>newchips then? :P
03:23<andythenorth>nml stations :P
03:24<andythenorth>can your AI understand wagon speed limits? o_O
03:24<Pikka>yes
03:24<Pikka>but it doesn't care much about them, it's happy to build slow trains
03:25*andythenorth should try it
03:25*Pikka will send an update
03:25<andythenorth>ok
03:25<Pikka>I think I'm done tinkering with it now
03:25<andythenorth>I should give it to child #1 to test
03:25<andythenorth>he has been testing Convoy and so on
03:25<Pikka>1 sec
03:25<andythenorth>with running commentary
03:26<andythenorth>I should give him twitch
03:26<andythenorth>he could be the next Stampy
03:27<Pikka>there
03:27<Pikka>run it with the default industries if you want to see trains, FIRS really confuses it :P
03:29<andythenorth>ok :P
03:29<andythenorth>such FIRS
03:29<andythenorth>BAD
03:34<andythenorth>ha I left busy bee in the game
03:34<andythenorth>AI probably can't do goals? o_O
03:36<Pikka>not deliberately, no.
03:36<TrueBrain>LordAro: possibly talk it over if PSP should still be a target that should be supported? :)
03:36<TrueBrain>it was fun to add, but useful? :D
03:40<andythenorth>PSP
03:40<andythenorth>so much promise
03:40<andythenorth>I think I gave mine away in the end
03:40<andythenorth>it was so nearly awesome
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03:44<andythenorth>well it's quite Civil eh
03:48<andythenorth>seems it's doing goals by accident
03:53<andythenorth>well Pikka
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03:53<andythenorth>I wouldn't make those train choices, but it's making money :)
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03:54<Pikka>lol
03:54<Pikka>it has a minimum standard
03:54<Pikka>which is 40mph and 250hp
03:54<Pikka>and then it just picks the loco with the lowest running cost
03:55<Pikka>or which appears to have the lowest running cost ;)
03:55<andythenorth>it's choosing the 'correct' wagons
03:55<andythenorth>I think that's because the grf author made correct choices about default cargos :P
03:55<Pikka>yes :P
03:56<andythenorth>vehicle default cargo cascades in Horse 2
03:56<andythenorth>depending on what's available
03:57<andythenorth>this one's interesting http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8950/civil_cows.png
03:59<Pikka>for "piece good" cargos it buys random wagons :)
03:59<andythenorth>spiffy
03:59<Pikka>for liquid and bulk, it buys the highest capacity native wagon, or if no native wagons the highest capacity refittable
04:00<andythenorth>go on...teach it integer train lengths :D
04:00<andythenorth>it's only maths
04:00<peter1138>Good morning.
04:01<Pikka>most train grfs don't have multiple wagon lengths so you can make integer train lengths, though :P
04:01<andythenorth>'prefer integer' :P
04:01<peter1138>I should play a game at some point...
04:01<andythenorth>it's over-rated
04:02<andythenorth>let the AI do it
04:02<peter1138>Ah, ok.
04:02<andythenorth>we played an MP game once
04:02<andythenorth>I remember
04:02<andythenorth>I made a castle
04:02<peter1138>I miss when UKRS was current :P
04:02<Pikka>yuk
04:03<andythenorth>I am just remaking it
04:03<andythenorth>only with too many wagons
04:04<andythenorth>then I'll remake NARS
04:04<andythenorth>then I have to 2x zoom all things
04:12<andythenorth>hmm
04:13<LordAro>TrueBrain: i'm pretty sure the "freebsd c compiler..." bit isn't relevant these days anyway
04:16<andythenorth>Pikka: so I was going to make Horse-NARS use bigger sprites
04:16<andythenorth>because realisms
04:16<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8951/na_horse_revived.png
04:16<andythenorth>but P1JK scale regrets?
04:17<Pikka>drawing smaller was a silly idea, for sure. drawing bigger you start running into issues with tunnels and bridges and general over-chibiness?
04:17<Pikka>I'd stick to the standard sprite size
04:18<andythenorth>also more copy paste
04:18<andythenorth>drawing 180 wagons...1px taller
04:18<andythenorth>blah blah
04:18<Pikka>yes
04:20<peter1138>Load average: 22.76, 14.21, 7.44
04:21<peter1138>Hmm :S
04:21<andythenorth>I need an AI feature
04:21<andythenorth>don't use trains with unfinished sprites
04:27*Pikka dinner
04:27<Pikka>then 47s
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04:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there's AI uaage bits, but i don't know if the AIs will actually adhere to them
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05:23<andythenorth>bbl
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08:17<samu>hi
08:17<samu>nice fixes for 1.8.0
08:18<samu>ty
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08:31<andythenorth>samu: we moved to github btw https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues
08:32<__ln__>"For tracking our bugs we are using a bug tracker called Flyspray." says readme at https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD
08:33<andythenorth>yes there is some work to do
08:33<andythenorth>__ln__: add an issue :)
08:34<__ln__>chicken and egg problem, can't add an issue to flyspray because it's read-only.
08:35<andythenorth>such problems
08:35*andythenorth can think of no solution
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09:01<Samu>wow
09:02<Samu>i need a new account to report bugs?
09:02<Samu>:(
09:05<LordAro>yeah, but you can learn how to do git properly now ;)
09:05<LordAro>incidentally, has there been an announcement anywhere?
09:24<andythenorth>nope
09:24<andythenorth>and some contributors are quitting also
09:24<andythenorth>unfortunate
09:24*andythenorth biab
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09:33<LordAro>just looked at the forum a bit
09:33<LordAro>yeah, *really* needs some sort of announcement, with explanations and such like
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09:51<@Alberth>o/
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11:09<@Alberth>o/ andy
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11:11<TrueBrain>w00p! I am baccckkkkk
11:11<@Alberth>\o/
11:11<TrueBrain>upgraded my IRC client .. not sure I like it ... it seems to have lost a few options :P
11:11<TrueBrain>owh well
11:11<TrueBrain>today I was reminded why forums in general are toxic; I understand the point they wanted to make, but this is not the way to do it :D (so much passive aggrasive statements in a single post ...)
11:11<@Alberth>advances in tech usually drops the more techy features :p
11:13<TrueBrain>yippie, I can visit github.com again from this machine :D (certificate issues)
11:16<@Alberth>I assume it means something else than "with a browser" :)
11:16<TrueBrain>no, my browser was of such age, it didnt support the TLS used for github.com
11:16<@Alberth>:O
11:17<TrueBrain>(it was running wheezy ....)
11:17<@Alberth>very stable :p
11:18<TrueBrain>if it aint broken
11:18<TrueBrain>now to upgrade my switch
11:20<andythenorth>TrueBrain: I didn't say too much in my replies
11:20<andythenorth>I feel the pain of those who were told to do everything the wrong way with hg queues
11:21<andythenorth>I tried that and failed, it's insane hard
11:21<TrueBrain>what amazes me about those post ... who "forced" them in hg queues .. and why do they blame OpenTTD in general for that
11:21<TrueBrain>feels a bit off
11:21<andythenorth>nah it's just lacking perspective
11:21<andythenorth>I nearly quit after NML was introduced
11:22<andythenorth>I wrote all of FIRS in NFO (with help), then it was ported to NML without a lot of consultation with me
11:22<andythenorth>and I couldn't get the tools working, so I nearly quit
11:22<andythenorth>but eh
11:22<andythenorth>I didn't :P
11:23<@Alberth>/me is happy you're still here
11:23<TrueBrain>I second that Alberth :)
11:23<andythenorth>lol
11:23<andythenorth>stats show this is mostly a channel of me talking to me
11:23<andythenorth>so what is 'here' :P
11:23<Pikka>o/
11:23<andythenorth>oh Pikka bob
11:23<Pikka>gnight :P
11:23<TrueBrain>what surprised me most .. since when is IRC not the primary way of communication? When did that change?
11:24<andythenorth>bye bob
11:24<Pikka>bbl
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11:24<andythenorth>I used to think forums were main way until I discovered irc
11:24<andythenorth>I was quite hostile to irc, I thought it was msn web-chat bollocks
11:24<andythenorth>people doing sexy chat and role play stuff
11:24<TrueBrain>I don't remember anything else .. tt-forums was just a side-branch of communication to me :)
11:24<TrueBrain>both are true :D
11:24<andythenorth>we got it at work, so I joined #openttd channel too
11:25<andythenorth>light dawned
11:25<@Alberth>TB lives in irc :)
11:25<andythenorth>TB is a bot right?
11:25<TrueBrain>yup
11:25<@Alberth>it has a domain now, it must get money from somewhere
11:26<TrueBrain>either way, I do thing a bit more communication can be good, but that is up to frosch123
11:26<TrueBrain>I think he really wants to make a drastical change
11:26<TrueBrain>which I can only applaud
11:26<@Alberth>it's drastic indeed, never seen it done in other projects
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11:27<TrueBrain>Python? :P
11:27<TrueBrain>GCC?
11:27<TrueBrain>Python took months of planning
11:27<TrueBrain>monthssss
11:27<@Alberth>:O
11:28<TrueBrain>Python migrated from their own hosted stuff to GitHub a bit ago
11:28<TrueBrain>GCC simply said: make a fork that is more popular, and we call that GCC
11:28<@Alberth>oh, I mean allowing multiple openttds, each different
11:28<TrueBrain>we just did what Python and GCC did at once :P
11:29<TrueBrain>but yeah .. the infrastructure is now there for people to make popular forks
11:30<TrueBrain>at least people can no longer hide behind: DEVS ARE MEAN AND DONT ACCEPT MY PATCH
11:30<TrueBrain>means I can finally make my head-to-head to way I want it >:@ (goes all evil)
11:30<TrueBrain>I had some technical drawings for an MMO OpenTTD somewhere ..
11:30<@Alberth>like we would stop you :p
11:31<TrueBrain>of all the things, that never happened :D
11:31<TrueBrain>I am a bit sad though about the OpenTTD community .. a lot of talk, very little doing
11:33<TrueBrain>hmm .. I kinda want to rename svn.openttd.org to svn-archive.openttd.org
11:34<TrueBrain>too invisible that it is read-only ..
11:34<TrueBrain>owh, and Alberth, you happen to know if there is eintsgit (I have an eintssvn)
11:35<@Alberth>that's code written by frosch, I have never even seen those scripts
11:35<TrueBrain>so I will bug him :D
11:36<@Alberth>but likely, it doesn't exist, as neither openttd nor devzone used git
11:37<@Alberth>unless he wrote it recently
11:37<TrueBrain>I thought someone said 2 projects used git?
11:37<TrueBrain>well, something for frosch123 to figure out :)
11:37<TrueBrain>otherwise I can use the svn of GitHub :D
11:37<@Alberth>you can use git at devzone, don't know if anyone does, but 2 sounds feasible
11:38<TrueBrain>documentation suggests commit also work over svn to GitHub
11:38<@Alberth>it likely doesn't actually do much in terms of the VCS
11:38<TrueBrain>might be the easy solution :D
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11:38<@Alberth>history is somewhat screwed there, in terms of svn
11:39<@Alberth>I read once what it does, and it didn't sound very useful from svn perspective :)
11:39<TrueBrain>but if I can pick up new commits and send an update, it should be enough, not ?D:
11:40<@Alberth>yeah, it might be sufficient, you never want to look through history
11:40<TrueBrain>it actually works
11:41<TrueBrain>so those who really want to keep using Subversion .. can :P
11:41<TrueBrain>and with that, anyone who wants to use Mercurial, can :P
11:41<@Alberth>problem solved !
11:41<@Alberth>nah, I tried mercurial as frontend to git, it is very break-ish
11:41<TrueBrain>no, as frontend to svn! :D
11:42<TrueBrain>it still sucks balls
11:42<TrueBrain>but ... :P
11:42<TrueBrain>(is Mercurial still being developed?)
11:42<@Alberth>no idea, but likely it is
11:42<TrueBrain>its funny to me .. I setup a mirror for hg and git back in those days, as I really couldnt tell who would win ... git had Linux .. hg had Windows ..
11:43<TrueBrain>now years later there is a clear winner ..
11:43<TrueBrain>BitBucket still supports both
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11:43<@Alberth>guthub is a big factor
11:43<TrueBrain>GitHub was a HUGE push
11:43<TrueBrain>git taking Windows users seriously too
11:43<@Alberth>and git has a simple one way to use it
11:43<TrueBrain>unless you hit reflog :D
11:43<TrueBrain>but yeah :)
11:43<@Alberth>while hg allows more freedom
11:44<TrueBrain>hg queues are awesome
11:44<@Alberth>but freedom is not what most users want
11:44<TrueBrain>rebasing is still a bit more iffy
11:44<TrueBrain>less verbose
11:44<@Alberth>much more strict, and complicated than queues
11:44<@Alberth>git threw out the option to change the diff
11:44<TrueBrain>in a queue you can just manually edit shit :D
11:45<TrueBrain>now I have to rebase against something, with -i, and change a patch
11:45<TrueBrain>I so often fuck this up :D
11:45<TrueBrain>what I do wrong most of the time, is that I 'git rebase -i' to a patch
11:45<TrueBrain>fix something
11:45<TrueBrain>continue
11:45<TrueBrain>it break
11:45<TrueBrain>I fix it
11:45<@Alberth>git is quite complicated beyond simple "add more commits"
11:45<TrueBrain>and than .... 'git commit --amend'
11:45<TrueBrain>:(
11:45<TrueBrain>I still HATE that it allows me to amend while in a rebase
11:46<TrueBrain>so often I squashed 2 commits together with this ...
11:46<TrueBrain>but yeah .. for just: fix stuff, add it, commit it
11:46<TrueBrain>it is awesome :)
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11:46<TrueBrain>I really like how people keep looking for better workflows on GitHub etc
11:46<@Alberth>but hardly you need git for that
11:46<@Alberth>anything vcs does that
11:46<TrueBrain>what I like most, is that andythenorth is jealous he didnt say anything for so long, and his streak is coming to an end :P
11:47<TrueBrain>yup
11:47<TrueBrain>git is just available, more than anything :)
11:47<TrueBrain>my <tab> key finally works through this vnc server :D No longe typing out names :D \o/
11:47<@Alberth>now it needs to be less technically correct, and more user-friendly
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11:48<TrueBrain>talking about frosch123
11:48<@Alberth>hola
11:48<TrueBrain>HELLO! :)
11:48<@Alberth>^ he's back :)
11:48<TrueBrain>frosch123: question for you .. I can link eints to the svn of GitHub .. that .. seems to work. Low effort, but risky. Or do you have a git variant for eintssvn for me? :)
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11:55<frosch123>i have a git variant for devzone
11:55<frosch123>anyway, it should only need replacing a few lines
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12:02<TrueBrain>if you could cook that up for me somewhere this week orso, that would be perfect :D
12:02<TrueBrain>tnx :D
12:04<frosch123>Alberth: and yes, devzone has full support for git
12:04<frosch123>both in eints and in compile farm
12:05<peter1138>evening
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12:05<@Alberth>evenink
12:05<@Alberth>nice!
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12:06<supermop_work>yo
12:07<andythenorth>TrueBrain: yeah, your count of uninterrupted consecutive lines is pretty impressive :)
12:07<andythenorth>I kind of stop at 5 or 7
12:07<andythenorth>when it's obvious it's me talking to me
12:07<TrueBrain>I dont have that filter
12:07<andythenorth>TrueBrain yeah, your count of uninterrupted consecutive lines is pretty impressive :)
12:07<andythenorth>I kind of stop at 5 or 7
12:07<TrueBrain>I am oblivious to the fact nobody wants to read me talk :D
12:08<andythenorth>oh my client is repeating
12:08<andythenorth>:D
12:08<TrueBrain>or is it ....
12:08<peter1138>My spacebar is sticking :(
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12:11<andythenorth>I found the relevant thread btw https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1190700#p1190700
12:11<andythenorth>don't read first two pages, it's just forum BS
12:11<andythenorth>but the gold is all in pages 3 and 4
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12:17<TrueBrain>funny how the same ideas have been around for months; any patchpack could have done it
12:17<TrueBrain>yet nobody moves :)
12:17<TrueBrain>sadly, this is a common thread not only in OpenTTD .. lot of talk, little action :)
12:17<TrueBrain>that is why I like to just do shit :D
12:17<TrueBrain>anyway, food
12:20<andythenorth>also now it's getting done too
12:20<andythenorth>winner winner, chicken dinner
12:28<frosch123>hmm, i can't tell whether github does not display tabs properly or whether half of michi's patches are indented differently
12:29<peter1138>:p
12:29<peter1138>Hmm, it looked okay to me.
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12:32<peter1138>So after that power blip in the datacentre, my irssi tabs are all out of whack :p
12:32<peter1138>At least this one is in the right place.
12:32<peter1138>(esc-2)
12:34<frosch123>i looked at the raw diff
12:34<frosch123>3 lines used spaces
12:34<peter1138>Oh. Hmm.
12:36<LordAro>the thing is, people *were* told to use hg queues as a way of splitting up large patches into smaller changes - for ease of reviewing was the justification. i doubt they were mentioned without git, but queues were certsinly marketed as the simpler option (not taking sides here!)
12:36*andythenorth making https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6698
12:37<andythenorth>yup
12:37<andythenorth>and queues sucked :D
12:37<peter1138>frosch123, yeah, the OS X ones are not right.
12:37<frosch123>i still have some queues, only moved some to git
12:37<andythenorth>it was plain to me that I wasn't going to try NRT with hg queues
12:37<LordAro>fwiw, i think the hard "split into logical changes" thing should be dropped, it's "too hard" for most people to do sanely (although reordering and commit messages is fine and expected still, imo)
12:37<@Alberth>git and rebasing came later than queues
12:38<peter1138>I tend to start doing logical changes, and then find I need to fix an unrelated bug to continue on some more changes.
12:38<andythenorth>+1
12:38<andythenorth>all day long
12:39<LordAro>+1
12:39<andythenorth>we have rules at work (I am responsible for some of them)
12:39<andythenorth>branch per isolated feature
12:39<peter1138>Often the way a bug is fixed differs between your branch and master.
12:39<andythenorth>so I then have 10 branches, and all of them are merged into each other
12:39<andythenorth>zero diff
12:39<andythenorth>but the bureacracy is correct
12:39<andythenorth>even if the engineering is bollocks :P
12:40<peter1138>Once merged you don't need them any more.
12:40<andythenorth>nah I mean concurrently
12:40<andythenorth>commit, switch, merge, switch, merge, switch, merge
12:40<andythenorth>etc
12:41<andythenorth>because 1 branch per ticket
12:41<andythenorth>so I do a task like 'upgrade the entire UI library'
12:41<andythenorth>with 1 ticket page of an app
12:41<@Alberth>I would really like a stack of patches, like queues, in git
12:41<andythenorth>cascading branches
12:41<@Alberth>yes
12:42<LordAro>incidentally, github solves nothing about "devs are mean and don't accept my patch" - devs still need to review and merge the PRs
12:42<frosch123>Alberth: stash doesn't do it?
12:42<@Alberth>stash is not all available together afaik
12:42<@Alberth>ie hg qpush -a
12:42<andythenorth>LordAro: correct
12:42<LordAro>stash + branches covers everything mq did, imo
12:43<andythenorth>LordAro: 'devs are mean' is probably perennial, there are those who do, and those who complain, and those who can do politics and those who can't
12:43<LordAro>hehe
12:43<andythenorth>but at least our toolchain won't be hostile any more :)
12:43<@Alberth>ha! :D
12:43<andythenorth>and I won't be scared our infra might die leaving us shafted
12:43<LordAro>or limited build system
12:44<andythenorth>I am still scared of devzone and bundles dying
12:44<LordAro>(when does first c++11 feature happen? ^^)
12:44<andythenorth>but eh
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12:45<LordAro>no risk of that any time soon, imo
12:45<LordAro>maybe someone should set up a GH devzone organisation ;)
12:46<andythenorth>frosch123: I am unsure, does bundles actually have git support?
12:48<frosch123>andythenorth: syke-rail is an example
12:48<frosch123>there was a second one, but that was the first one
12:49<peter1138>Well, a branch is basically a stack of patches.
12:50<andythenorth>I think I would like to stop using hg if possible
12:50<andythenorth>I don't hate hg, but I use two VCS daily, and I'd rather use one
12:50<@Alberth>until you decide to change stuff in the middle, where you then get caught in a rebase, and the needs to apply everything
12:51<frosch123>wait a little, i currently can't tell whether devzone would be replaced by farm and eints working directly on github
12:52<@Alberth>which is a mess if the top-patches become obsolete to the point of not applying sanely, but you want to keep them for reference
12:52<LordAro>andythenorth: i use svn at work, i'm constantly trying to do "git di" or "git st -q"
12:52<@Alberth>alias git svn
12:53<frosch123>LordAro: same for me, but i have the opposite result
12:53<andythenorth>frosch123: a few days ago, before you joined channel TB persuaded me I should learn docker
12:53<frosch123>andythenorth: i also did, since then i am frustrated that it is not used at work :p
12:54<@Alberth>:p
12:54<andythenorth>I need to learn it for work
12:54<andythenorth>and if it's good we switch to it
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12:55<frosch123>so, how do i configure git to default-pull from OpenTTD/OpenTTD, but default push to frosch123/OpenTTD?
12:56<andythenorth>I also want to see if pipenv is useful, and maybe package nml with it
12:56<andythenorth>https://docs.pipenv.org/
12:56<frosch123>hmm, or do i configure github to default pull from ottd to me?
12:57<andythenorth>dunno :)
12:57<andythenorth>alias to update the remote? :P
12:58<LordAro>frosch123: git remote --help
12:58<LordAro>i have an orgin and a fork remotr, usually
12:58<LordAro>pretty sure you can remove push for a particular remotr
12:59<andythenorth>I have NRT set up with ottd as a remote
12:59<andythenorth>there might be better ways
13:00<andythenorth>if $anyone finds docs that need updating... https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6698
13:00<frosch123>yes, i have multiple remotes
13:00<andythenorth>or just fix them, and cut out project management :P
13:00<frosch123>i am just too lazy to always type which
13:00<andythenorth>alias git pull
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13:02<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
13:02<Wolf01>o/
13:03<LordAro>and #6697 needs closing as workingasintended
13:03<LordAro>no stagnation!
13:04<andythenorth>do I have rights yet?
13:04<andythenorth>o_O
13:05<andythenorth>says TrueBrain is the only person on the project afaict
13:05<frosch123>yes, tb is the only public member
13:05<LordAro>only public person on the project
13:05<frosch123>no idea whether he just forgot :)
13:05<LordAro>no real reason why anyone should hide it
13:05<andythenorth>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/graphs/contributors
13:05<LordAro>also that reason
13:05<frosch123>LordAro: i have followers on github, they scare me :)
13:06<frosch123>well, not as scary as my twitter followers
13:06<LordAro>haha
13:06<andythenorth>oh where did I fork NRT from :o https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/network/members
13:06<andythenorth>maybe I *didn't get it from git.openttd
13:07<andythenorth>can't tell, github confuses me :)
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13:08<Wolf01>"I'm thanking each day i'm playing with ratt you, Andythenorth, Eddi and Alberth for continuing this fantastic work. Really." <- I'm tempted to reply "and frosch? He did most of it"... people always forget about frogs :(
13:09<frosch123>it's fine, at least they don't annoy then :)
13:09<andythenorth>silent contributor
13:10<andythenorth>I am just the front man
13:11<Wolf01>You make the grfs, without you (and supermop) NRT wouldn't be here
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13:11<Wolf01>Also you insisted :P
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13:18<Wolf01>BTW, andythenorth, your opinion for bus-only roads?
13:20<supermop_work>brt guideways
13:21<andythenorth>'meh' :)
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13:22<supermop_work>seems easy to do in nrt already, no?
13:23<Wolf01>Maybe some little changes to pathfinding
13:23<Wolf01>Shit s.Berliner III trolled me again
13:24<supermop_work>just need the rv set to co-conspire with the road set
13:24<Wolf01>I hate when fictional engines come up when you are making a seriouss research
13:24<andythenorth>:P
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13:36<peter1138>LordAro, well... should it be reoffered? I don't think so.
13:36<peter1138>Is NRT here?
13:38<andythenorth>it's here
13:38<andythenorth>https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/tree/road-and-tram-types
13:38<andythenorth>it needs rebased, and the merge conflicts fixed
13:38<andythenorth>it's probably done
13:39<andythenorth>probably lacks AI and GS support, but eh
13:40<Wolf01>Not so lacking... samu and others tried it and seem to work, almost
13:41<peter1138>What is RATT?
13:41<andythenorth>merge it to master, let it run for next 11 months
13:41<andythenorth>RATT is NRT
13:41<andythenorth>it's the branch name
13:41<peter1138>Ah
13:42<Wolf01>RATT is the public name, NRT is the project name :P
13:42<peter1138>So I'm in branch "road-and-tram-types" and I see sync with RATT. Syncing with itself?
13:42<Wolf01>Probably XD
13:42*Wolf01 <- Dinner
13:43<andythenorth>that's just an odd commit message I think
13:44<TrueBrain>frosch123: I am more surprised the rest of you are hiding
13:44<TrueBrain>why not make it public you are part of OpenTTD? :)
13:44<peter1138>It defaults to private, and nobody else bothered to change it?
13:48<TrueBrain>andythenorth: you indeed didnt fork it via GitHub :D Silly goose
13:48<andythenorth>oops
13:48<andythenorth>ancient history now :P
13:49<andythenorth>apply it as one big diff? :P
13:49<andythenorth>commit: one big patch
13:49<TrueBrain>... lol
13:49<TrueBrain>let me check what mess you made :)
13:49<TrueBrain>I could figure out Wolf01's mess :P
13:49<TrueBrain><3
13:50<TrueBrain>wow, lot of commits
13:50<peter1138>Problem is the merges when changes get lost in them.
13:52<peter1138>Last merged with r27974 - c46e470
13:52<TrueBrain>229 patches
13:52<TrueBrain>oef
13:52<TrueBrain>and doesnt apply clean on the head of your own master branch
13:53<peter1138>o_O
13:54<andythenorth>it has 2 merge conflicts
13:54<andythenorth>one needs openttd grf sprites manually merged
13:54<andythenorth>the other is savegame stuff I don't understand :P
13:54<TrueBrain>ghehe
13:55<peter1138>11518 lines, 557608 characters for the full diff, heh
13:55<TrueBrain>I guess it depends a bit how you want to go forward with this .. indeed as you say commit it as a single patch
13:55<TrueBrain>or do you want to keep this history
13:55<TrueBrain>main issue seems to be that it has merges from several branches
13:57<TrueBrain>241 non-merge commits
13:57<TrueBrain>hot damn
13:57<TrueBrain>owh, sometimes called sync
13:57<TrueBrain>so that 229 patches is accurate
13:58<TrueBrain>100 merge commits
13:58<LANJesus>got around to rebasing
13:58<frosch123>i believe there are several experimental things which got reverted again
13:58<LANJesus>peggin my CPU.
13:58<peter1138>I don't think keeping the full history is useful
13:58<TrueBrain>frosch123: that makes it even harder :D
13:58<TrueBrain>I now remember why I rarely merge :D
13:59<frosch123>problem was likely that only master is built on the farm :p
13:59<frosch123>so everything must be in master
13:59<frosch123>well, not "master", but that one branch
13:59<peter1138>rebase apparently makes it harder to share
14:00<andythenorth>we might also have different setups
14:00<peter1138>which is sort of true if it's just random people working it
14:00<TrueBrain>there is a point where there are 23 branches next to eachother
14:00<TrueBrain>which are merged over 12 commits
14:00<TrueBrain>running 'tig' on that branch is briljant
14:01<andythenorth>does github have a tree view like bitbucket?
14:01<andythenorth>I can't find it
14:01<TrueBrain>no clue; locally I use 'tig' for it
14:02<TrueBrain>in the end the branches are merged properly
14:02<TrueBrain>but in between there are times that it is a bit iffy :D
14:02<peter1138>Revert "Merge GUI"
14:02<peter1138>Yeah
14:02<TrueBrain>so rebasing will be very difficult
14:02<TrueBrain>and manually fixing 229 patches is a bit much
14:02<andythenorth>we had multiple branches in two forks
14:03<peter1138>Cherry pick!
14:03<andythenorth>I think this is how most devlolopers are going to do it :P
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14:03<peter1138>Normally you don't change the base that everybody is working off
14:03<TrueBrain>I honestly dont have a good suggestion for this
14:04<peter1138>Rewrite!
14:04<peter1138>Now you know what you're doing...
14:04<TrueBrain>not relevant peter1138. If they want to continue on the new git, that is easy as pie
14:04<peter1138>Split it up in to logical ... wait, that sounds familiar.
14:04<TrueBrain>just takes some CPU time for git to figure it out
14:04<TrueBrain>but that is simple
14:04<TrueBrain>it is just a bloody mess
14:04<TrueBrain>(their branch)
14:04<TrueBrain>no matter how you slice it
14:05<peter1138>master will get there eventually ;D
14:05<peter1138>Let's go back to svn hah
14:07<andythenorth>history is over-rated, everything has a hash
14:07<andythenorth>don't worry about it :P
14:07<TrueBrain>doesnt happen often that I am unsure how to resolve a git mess properly :D
14:08<andythenorth>hmm tig is colourful
14:08<andythenorth>what are the 'sync' commits? :)
14:08<peter1138>That's what I asked.
14:08<TrueBrain>they have 2 parents; so merges
14:08<andythenorth>and why are there so many merge commits? o_O
14:08<peter1138>so I did a big diff
14:08<peter1138>checked out the same version, applied
14:08<TrueBrain>andythenorth: 100 out of the 329 :)
14:09<peter1138>only the pngs conflict, which is fair enough
14:09<andythenorth>yair, someone added airport sprites :)
14:09<andythenorth>just need to move the light-rail icon
14:09*andythenorth lost in tig
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14:09<TrueBrain>without some manual effort I am unsure you can make a clean PR out of this :(
14:10<andythenorth>well gotta break some eggs to learn :)
14:10<frosch123>andythenorth: it's not airport sprites, it's gui sprtes with firecycle
14:10<TrueBrain>don't have 5 merge commits after each ohter? :D
14:10<TrueBrain>with the same right parent .. also interesting
14:10<andythenorth>isn't that just Wolf's editor doing something?
14:11<TrueBrain>especially because they are clean merges
14:11<TrueBrain>it merges a merge :D
14:11<TrueBrain>that explains :)
14:11<TrueBrain>the moment you find out that the left and right parent of the merge are both merges :D
14:12<TrueBrain>haha, and the next level also has merges :D
14:12<andythenorth>2017-08-04 21:46 is interesting
14:12<frosch123>that's why noone told andy that devzone also supports git :p
14:12<TrueBrain>and one more level :D
14:12<TrueBrain>this is fun :D
14:12<TrueBrain>awh, there it stops
14:12<andythenorth>hth did I merge 7 branches like that?
14:12<TrueBrain>4 deep merges :D
14:12<TrueBrain>no, there is another name there
14:13<andythenorth>9 times I merged trunk in?
14:13<TrueBrain>owh, searching for times is annoying :P
14:13<andythenorth>my tig has run out of unique colours
14:13<TrueBrain>yup
14:14<TrueBrain>and no, you merged something that on the left side had a merge
14:14<andythenorth>ok
14:14<TrueBrain>but while you were merging, others merged too :D
14:14<andythenorth>distributed fun :P
14:15<TrueBrain>seems like for ~4 months you only merged into that branch
14:15<andythenorth>yes
14:15<andythenorth>just keeping up with trunk
14:15<TrueBrain>which makes total sense btw
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14:16<peter1138>The savegame conflict is easy to fix.
14:16<peter1138>I'm not sure what's needed for the sprites, though.
14:16<frosch123>TrueBrain: so, would eints directly push OpenTTD/OpenTTD ?
14:17<TrueBrain>frosch123: or you really would like to accept a PR every day?
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14:18<frosch123>peter1138: 09f41da863c replaced a few sprites, so i guess use the master file and readd the new nrt sprites
14:18<TrueBrain>most patches apply nicely btw
14:20<andythenorth>peter1138: it's just the tram icon at sprite 178
14:21<Wolf01><TrueBrain> I could figure out Wolf01's mess :P <- :*
14:21<TrueBrain>dont forget to read the line following ;)
14:22<Wolf01><3
14:23<Wolf01>I would start fresh as a single patch, as master with remotes, branches only for working on features
14:24<Wolf01>Let me check which unpublished branches I have too :D
14:25<peter1138>http://git.fuzzle.org/openttd.git/log/?h=rgb
14:25<peter1138>8 years ago...
14:26<peter1138>Er, 5 I mean.
14:26<peter1138>I can Maths.
14:26<andythenorth>it's probably nearly done then
14:26<peter1138>TrueBrain, how I rebase that onto the new master etc?
14:26<Wolf01>Ok, something I could afford to lose, we could move the NRT repo when you want
14:26<peter1138>(leaving that repo read-only, obviously)
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14:27<TrueBrain>okay, andythenorth, it is not that bad
14:27<TrueBrain>what I did is this:
14:28<TrueBrain>git rebase --onto origin/master deprecated/master deprecated/road-and-tram-types
14:28<TrueBrain>of the 229 patches it applies
14:28<TrueBrain>only 20 conflict
14:28<TrueBrain>the harest are the ones with grf/png changes (binaries)
14:28<TrueBrain>~8 of them
14:28<TrueBrain>2 were MSVC project changes
14:28<TrueBrain>the rest were conflicts even I could resolve :P
14:28<andythenorth>some of them just needed openttd.grf rebuilt iirc
14:28<TrueBrain>so if someone goes through that slowly, it is done in a few
14:28<TrueBrain>not the fanciest work, but .. it is also not terrible
14:29<TrueBrain>owh, and a dutch.txt conflict and a greek.txt conflict
14:29<TrueBrain>mainly it seems there was a savegame bump and something changes in master related to road vehicles
14:29<TrueBrain>so that gives a bit of conflicting
14:29<peter1138>Ah, that command "worked"
14:30<TrueBrain>so it is not too bad andythenorth :)
14:30<andythenorth>we will try harder next time
14:30<andythenorth>to be bad :)
14:30<andythenorth>give you challenges
14:30<TrueBrain>what is weird, how-ever, that the first commit is now a revert :D
14:30<andythenorth>I will revert some merges
14:31<TrueBrain>something about gui branch
14:31<andythenorth>reverting merges is always fun later
14:31<peter1138>git reset HEAD~1
14:31<peter1138>is how i revert :p
14:31<andythenorth>git revert [merge] is how I do it
14:31<Wolf01>:D
14:31<andythenorth>followed by trip to docs
14:31<andythenorth>to fix what I broke
14:31<TrueBrain>so andythenorth, if you want to make your branch pull-request worthy, that would be my advise to do
14:32<andythenorth>ok thanks :)
14:32<andythenorth>I saved it to the 'finish NRT' ticket https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/issues/22#issuecomment-379849291
14:33<andythenorth>today is not the day for me to try, for $reasons
14:33<TrueBrain>:)
14:33<TrueBrain>just enjoy the fact knowing it is not helpless
14:35<andythenorth>it's never helpless :)
14:35<andythenorth>we could always have commited the diff from 229 patches, one at a time :P
14:36<TrueBrain>that is what rebasing does :)
14:36<TrueBrain>just with the power of git, and his very good auto-conflict resolving
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14:45<TrueBrain>frosch123: are the indents in michi_cc's patch really wrong, or is it GitHub? I couldnt figure out ..
14:45<TrueBrain>it seems GitHub doesnt really fancy tabs
14:45<LordAro>github does do weird things with tags
14:45<LordAro>tabs*
14:45<peter1138>GitHub is not auto converting from tabs to spaces is it?
14:46<LordAro>if you add .patch to the commit url, you get raw diff
14:47<TrueBrain>ah
14:47<peter1138>There's definitely spaces in that.
14:47<TrueBrain>there indeed I see the indents are wrong
14:47<TrueBrain>that is a bit annoying
14:47<TrueBrain>frosch123: let me rephrase: why didn't the commit-checker pick up that spaces were used instead of tabs? :D
14:49<glx>svn hook refused spaces IIRC
15:04<Wolf01>Was PAX this weekend?
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15:11<frosch123>TrueBrain: we have lots of that in 3rdparty and in some ini files
15:12<frosch123>i could add it, but may make it hard for some files
15:12<LordAro>not difficult to exclude a folder
15:12<LordAro>or certain filetypes
15:14<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pynd32ks6 <- those are the files which have some lines with two leading blanks
15:14<frosch123>(one leading blank is common in all doxygen)
15:15<frosch123>possibly we could make the check only for *h,*hpp,*cpp
15:15<frosch123>and not 3rdparty
15:16<frosch123>maybe someone makes a PR :)
15:17<frosch123>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks/blob/master/test/test.sh#L142 <- you just need to comment in that testcase
15:17<frosch123>and then make it work again :p
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15:31<peter1138>Oh god the conflicts.
15:31<frosch123>rgb patch?
15:31<peter1138>Yes :D
15:31<peter1138>I should drop it anyway, it's not useful.
15:32<LordAro>:o
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15:34<andythenorth>so when do I get issue editing rights TrueBrain? :D
15:34<Wolf01>Don't :D
15:35<andythenorth>there are 382 open
15:35<andythenorth>I reckon I can reduce that
15:35<andythenorth>~200 would be good
15:35<andythenorth>invalidation is the least-effort way to solve an issue ;)
15:36<Wolf01>1-5 bugs, ~100 suggestions is about right
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15:41<TrueBrain>andythenorth: frosch123 is in charge .. ask him :)
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15:44<andythenorth>I don't know if frosch123 approves of my work on Flyspray
15:44<andythenorth>I removed about 500 issues :P
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15:45<andythenorth>I think I have the answer :P
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16:05<frosch123>how rude, 20 minutes no internet
16:06<frosch123>i considered reading a book
16:07<frosch123>andythenorth: if someone knows how permissions work on github (i don't), i am fine with you and lord closing tasks :)
16:09<TrueBrain>I think that they can also approve prs in that case .. do we care?
16:12<frosch123>the "team" stuff only talks about cloning and pushing
16:12<frosch123>no mention of issues and pr
16:12<peter1138>Damn, doing a rebase and got one of the previous fixes wrong ;(
16:13<peter1138>I guess... recompile between rebase --continue :p
16:25<TrueBrain>permission table dhows write means also closing issues
16:26<frosch123>the protect branches also allows assigning some teams
16:26<frosch123>but i do not find unambiguous docs
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16:27<andythenorth>I don't want write :P
16:27<TrueBrain>I am sure they will behave ..njust put them in another team :)
16:27<andythenorth>can you ban me with a post-commit hook?
16:27<TrueBrain>we know where they live :p
16:27<peter1138>Heh
16:28<andythenorth>I deliberately got locked out of our production servers at work
16:28<TrueBrain>I prefer post commit punishments
16:28<andythenorth>then I can't be expected to fix things
16:28<andythenorth>which means I won't make Friday mistakes
16:29<andythenorth>I've done dumb stuff even just with fat fingers
16:29<TrueBrain>havent we all
16:29<TrueBrain>part of being iTer
16:29<peter1138>Hmm, weird, network connection dropped. On my LAN :S
16:29<andythenorth>I sank a Landrover and two tractors in quicksand once
16:29<andythenorth>that wasn't ops though :P
16:30<frosch123>how to call the team? "friends"? "cats"? "slaves"? "tributaries"?
16:30<TrueBrain>slaves
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16:30<TrueBrain>cats sounds fine too
16:30<andythenorth>'editors'
16:31<frosch123>that would even make sense :p
16:31<andythenorth>ha ha can I be a project manager?
16:31<andythenorth>:D
16:31<TrueBrain>ohoh
16:31<andythenorth>the failure of OpenTTD is because it has no project manager, right? o-O
16:31<andythenorth>I remember those threads
16:31<peter1138>Nah, it's because I lost my patches.
16:31<frosch123>there was only one
16:31<peter1138>At least, the ones that finished it.
16:31<frosch123>*one thread
16:32<TrueBrain>lol
16:32<frosch123>andythenorth: github seems to have a manager role, which is not allowed to do anything but view/edit billing information
16:32<TrueBrain>so much drama
16:33<andythenorth>ha
16:33<andythenorth>managers just pay for stuff
16:33<frosch123>https://help.github.com/articles/permission-levels-for-an-organization/ <- so weird
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16:33<TrueBrain>what part?
16:34<frosch123>the billing manager column
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16:34<andythenorth>probably so you can let finance in without giving them access to src
16:35<andythenorth>preserves role segregation for ISO
16:35<andythenorth>probably genuinely useful :P
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16:36<TrueBrain>someone gave them enough momey for it
16:36<frosch123>or they needed it themself
16:36<frosch123>but yes, looks somewhat ad-hoc
16:37<andythenorth>I seem to have a zombie process on a BSD-like OS
16:37<andythenorth>wtf
16:37<andythenorth>it's running in the UI, but doesn't show in top
16:39<andythenorth>fuck it restart
16:39<andythenorth>Apple is in a low point of quality again, like 20 years ago
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17:03<Wolf01>Got rid of the zombie?
17:07<andythenorth>shutdown -h now
17:07<andythenorth>nothing else would kill it
17:08<andythenorth>my anti-virus still isn't working, but the zombie is gone
17:09<Wolf01>Ha
17:09<andythenorth>I have to run the AV scan manually :P
17:09<andythenorth>it's scheduling tool won't start
17:17<peter1138>You should run Windows.
17:17<peter1138>Far more reliable.
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17:17<andythenorth>people who've switched say it is
17:18<andythenorth>and a better UI
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17:18<peter1138>Hmm, I got jenkins to run my unit tests automatically finally.
17:18<andythenorth>:)
17:18<peter1138>And half fail because they need extra bits that aren't in the unit test project. Good job.
17:20<peter1138>Hah, there's an MS SQL server connection string in there. That hasn't been used for 4 years.
17:20<andythenorth>door_bbboxes should be door_bboxes
17:20<andythenorth>but on a £2500 Mac laptop, working keys are not a feature
17:20<andythenorth>it's a joke
17:22*andythenorth is now just waiting for a credible alternative to macOS
17:22<andythenorth>then I can switch
17:25<andythenorth>Macs use to cost £1200, and have a working keyboard
17:25*andythenorth should stop whining
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17:49<Wolf01>'night
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20:24<peter1138>https://github.com/PeterN/OpenTTD/tree/rgb < I did it anyway :p
20:26<peter1138>Of course it's missing the remapping for the accelerated blitters.
20:27<peter1138>They were added back in 2014, a year after my changes :p
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22:28<supermop>civil ai seems kind of hesitant to build trains or serve industries
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22:32<Pikka>it has trouble with FIRS, but the default industries it should usually find something to build fairly early
22:36<supermop>im trying temperate basic
22:37<supermop>there happen to be a dairy farm and a dairy right next to each other
22:37<supermop>which seems to be confusing it?
22:38<supermop>it keeps talking about it in the debug
22:38<supermop>sometimes it builds a station, but never a train
22:38<supermop>nor does it try to serve it with trucks
22:39<Pikka>can you send me a savegame?
22:39<supermop>sure
22:39<supermop>also ignores the hotels, which would be easy money
22:46<Pikka>hmm
22:46<Pikka>they both start building trains here, if they have enough money
22:48<Pikka>https://i.imgur.com/khlQv0w.png talk about short line :P
22:49<supermop>hmm mine need more money maybe
22:49<supermop>green seems to be profitable though
22:51<Pikka>spends it all on rvs :P
22:52<supermop>i fed the dairy with milk trams and green built a road across the map to take food to Thai Hoa
22:52<Pikka>yes :)
22:53<Pikka>if I just load the game and ff (bearing in mind I don't have your house set), blue builds their first train in 1972
22:54<Pikka>part of the problem with FIRS is that they try to ship to general stores
22:54<Pikka>which are in towns, so they can't place the station
22:54<supermop>its zephs on forums
22:55<Pikka>it slows them down a lot
22:56<Pikka>but they get there eventually
22:57<supermop>will they ever build more than 5 bus stops if the town grows
22:57<supermop>?
22:58<Pikka>nope
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23:05<supermop>i wonder if it would be better to have the intercity buses leave from a peripheral stop, if cdist is on
23:05<supermop>rather than clogging the central one
23:06<Pikka>clogging is what the AI was originally written for. :P in any case, they won't always go from the center, they'll go from wherever's busy. and there's a limit to how many buses it will direct to one stop.
23:07<supermop>https://imgur.com/a/wtMSc
23:08<supermop>that blue bus has a long way to go to turn around
23:09<Pikka>poor bus
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---Logclosed Tue Apr 10 00:00:23 2018