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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-04-18

---Logopened Wed Apr 18 00:00:35 2018
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02:11<andythenorth>not sure
02:11<peter1138>Morning.
02:17<andythenorth>pikka o/
02:17<Pikka>o/
02:21<andythenorth>need some 1930 coaches :P
02:21<andythenorth>that don't look like 1960 coaches
02:21<andythenorth>1860 is easy, clerestory roof
02:21<andythenorth>1900 is ok, just do narrow windows
02:22<Pikka>LMS period 2? squarish, medium sized windows?
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02:24<Pikka>https://i.imgur.com/wm5ayuf.png gen 1 toplights
02:27<peter1138>Puffy smoke!
02:27<Pikka>zbase smoke :P
02:27<peter1138>Aww...
02:27<peter1138>I was gonna say, can smoke have variations :p
02:28<peter1138>Also, I don't like zbase much :(
02:28<peter1138>Those chunky signals, woah.
02:28<peter1138>It's an impressive body of work mind you./
02:28<peter1138>4x zoom original graphics, some kind of magic :D
02:29<andythenorth>hmm toplights
02:29<andythenorth>maybe I need 2x zoom? :P
02:29<Pikka>I was gonna say, can smoke have variations :p <- custom fx sprites would be kind of handy, rather than being limited to the default smoke/smoke/sparks ;)
02:29<andythenorth>that's either supported, or was on frosch's to-do list
02:30<peter1138>I suspect it's not supported. If it was, Pikka would know.
02:30<andythenorth>that's like assuming I know the newgrf spec :P
02:30<peter1138>:D
02:31<peter1138>Is smoke still a vehicle? heh
02:31<peter1138>Or is that just shadows.
02:31<andythenorth>I think so
02:31<andythenorth>I think it got dropped because controlling the effect vehicle would be faff
02:31<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/New_Smoke
02:32<peter1138>Hmm
02:32<peter1138>CBID_VEHICLE_SPAWN_VISUAL_EFFECT
02:32<andythenorth>the thing with frosch is
02:32<andythenorth>writes a spec :)
02:37<peter1138>And lets someone else implement it.
02:38<andythenorth>well :)
02:38<andythenorth>frosch has done a lot of newgrf ponies for me ;)
02:42<Eddi|zuHause>you might need a new nfo "feature" to override the effect vehicles?
02:53<andythenorth>Pikka: o_O http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8981/horse_coronation_stripey.png
02:55<V453000>Pikka: finally loaded the trains in game, they look incredibly good. :)
02:55<Pikka>:D
02:56<V453000>ooh stripey
02:56<V453000>You're seriously making me consider returning to hand drawing the sprites ._.
02:56<V453000>Might end up with 3D with heavy postproduction
02:57<andythenorth>I seriously am tempted to automate Pikka's pipeline :P
02:57<Pikka>how painful
02:58<andythenorth>you could have sedation
02:59<andythenorth>I change 1 coach roof pixel, 122 sprites get updated :)
02:59<andythenorth>same for chassis
03:00*V453000 says shit about uniqueness
03:00<andythenorth>yeah, better to have 122 good sprites :P
03:00<andythenorth>instead of 22 unique and 100 with mistakes
03:01<andythenorth>Horse pax and mail are like this https://nigelburkin.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/class-350-4-20.jpg
03:02<V453000>the amount of detail in the x2 sprites is just outrageous
03:04<andythenorth>V453000: swap? o_O
03:04<peter1138>What is V453000's current project?
03:05<V453000>idk andy what to do :D
03:05<V453000>peter1138: a new train set
03:05<peter1138>Any teaser images? :p
03:05<andythenorth>I am definitely *not* going to do 2x
03:05<peter1138>Awww
03:06<andythenorth>but not because I don't like the look
03:07<V453000>not much, it's very bare and the visual style is completely undecided https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8982/prototype.png
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03:08<V453000>I'm just building a functional prototype so far
03:08<V453000>because ofc I am going to abuse the hell out of specs
03:08<V453000>this would be the biggest steamer in scale, 24/8 :)
03:09<peter1138>nice :P
03:09<peter1138>Looks like the wheels all have tyres though, hehe
03:09<V453000>They do :)
03:09<V453000>the set is called PART Assembled Road Trains
03:10<V453000>the core idea is that you have 1 train class of 11 engines that you unlock over time, and with it wagons
03:10<peter1138>Hee
03:10<andythenorth>https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4yN5qQbESqoC&pg=PT99&lpg=PT99&dq=iain+banks+steam+train+racing&source=bl&ots=LxnspMA5M8&sig=yLSuoOz2NAqRksxeJSCupildrII&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5mOChosPaAhVrDMAKHTLPDBwQ6AEINTAF#v=onepage&q=iain%20banks%20steam%20train%20racing&f=false
03:10<V453000>ther are 6 types of wagons, every one is universal for any cargoes, but the trick is that each of the wagons changes the way how the train performs
03:10<V453000>aka, power wagons, max speed wagons, ...
03:11<V453000>there are also 5 railtype roads which change the performance of trains on it
03:12<V453000>idea is that purchase menu is not cluttered so it's fairly beginner friendly (there will probably be a basic part which adds a bit of each), but the possibilities are almost endless
03:12<V453000>the trick of the performance boosting parts is that the closer the wagon is to the engine, the more efficiency it has, so you need to prioritize what is where
03:12<_dp_>peter1138, you can use bootstrap with sass and move presentation details there
03:13<andythenorth>ugh
03:13<andythenorth>mega-classes, instead of composition? o_O
03:14<V453000>technically, I'm using the layered vehicle drawing so on the engine it shows some "levels" of strength in 3 areas - engine, cabin and wheel
03:14<V453000>It's literally 1 engine class andy, the only way how to get differently performing vehicles is through wagon compositions
03:15<V453000>since the engine changes visually based on the wagon types behind it, it shouldn't be too visually boring
03:15<V453000>plus of course wagons get variations and unique graphics for every cargo etc
03:15*Pikka bbl :)
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03:15<_dp_>andythenorth, not necessarily, you can do smth like BEM
03:15<_dp_>andythenorth, basically, semantic classes instead of presentation ones
03:15<V453000>oh :)
03:17<andythenorth>meh :)
03:17<andythenorth>so much time wasted by people who don't understand that html is fundamentally presentational
03:18<andythenorth>it's a markup language, not a data store
03:18<andythenorth>although previous to html 4 it was much too presentational, all very wrong
03:23<andythenorth>also people who think inline styles are somehow wrong :(
03:25<andythenorth>oops bbl
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04:15<andythenorth>maybe I should draw sprites like this https://www.vectis.co.uk/marx-no-331-coronation-scot-electric-train_676080
04:16<V453000>damn
04:19<peter1138>Yes.
04:19<andythenorth>V453000: new style? o_O
04:20<V453000>no but right now I'm trying to figure the fuck out, what do I do with the wheel
04:21<V453000>do I keep t he idea of road types and tires, and if, how
04:21<V453000>because of the visual puzzle, they need to fit into each other so it's not that easy :)
04:22<andythenorth>V453000: I assume your inspiration is this? :P https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Qsieu7cKna0/hqdefault.jpg
04:22<andythenorth>that image gets around a lot
04:23<V453000>I didn't really see inspiration, but yeah this is what it could look like
04:24<andythenorth>game needs more of this sort of thing https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/c3/6d/28c36df5fa8f53962c31336d80af5c4e.jpg
04:24<andythenorth>HEQS Renewal!
04:24<V453000>:0
04:25<V453000>The thing is, trains have that kind of thing that's just inherently cool
04:25<V453000>which is why I'm trying to have the top half look like a train, just the wheel are more car like
04:25<V453000>also top level tractive effort = tank treads ofs
04:25<V453000>ofc
04:27<V453000>but then when you show me a picture like that, uhhh
04:27<V453000>I don't know what I want
04:29<andythenorth>I liked BRIX style :P
04:29<andythenorth>I thought the micro-machines were winningest
04:29<andythenorth>how come you get to change style every 12 months?
04:29<andythenorth>but Eddi|zuHause always says I never stick to my decisions or finish anything :P
04:32<V453000>I don't know
04:32<V453000>I think it's mainly because I don't spend much time actually making things
04:32<V453000>and the plan for this train set has been in my head for years now
04:33*andythenorth lost in world of tiny pixels
04:33<andythenorth>I need 12 liveries for 6 generations of pax coach
04:33<andythenorth>and I have 6 pixels height body to paint on
04:34<V453000>I'm already considering adding a "rails instead of roads" parameter
04:34<V453000>but I really don't know how would the wheel look there
04:34<V453000>:D
04:34<andythenorth>what was the goal again? o_O
04:35<V453000>ultra chibbi wagons were cool, yes
04:35<V453000>the idea is that wagons give different bonuses
04:35<V453000>and if trains has over 128 TE modifier, then it uses a different sprite for wheel
04:35<V453000>moar TE, better wheel, most TE, tank treads
04:36<V453000>combined with 5 road types, where the train actually gets faster on better roads
04:36<V453000>I guess having track types where trains get faster on better rails is ok too?
04:36<andythenorth>yes
04:37<V453000>Does having more wheel do any effect on TE logically IRL Realism Engineering?
04:37<andythenorth>it's not 100% known
04:38<V453000>what do you mean :D
04:38<andythenorth>or rather, engineers disagree
04:38<V453000>:0
04:38<andythenorth>traditionally the number of wheels has been disregarded in TE calculations
04:38<andythenorth>just the weight is ued
04:38<V453000>I'd expect philosophers to disagree but engineers :D
04:38<andythenorth>used *
04:38<andythenorth>but when General Motors tested early diesel locomotives in the 1940s
04:38<andythenorth>in tests, more wheels => more actual TE delivered
04:39<andythenorth>many rail engineers still dispute this
04:39<andythenorth>because...people
04:39<V453000>hm
04:39<andythenorth>it's a game, fake the physics
04:39<V453000>well I still kind of like the idea of mud road -> stone road -> asphalt road -> concrete road -> megamodern concrete road
04:39<andythenorth>in my super realistic train set, the TE is faked to get gameplay results
04:40<V453000>with tracks it's kind of track A -> track B -> track C -> track D -> track E
04:40<andythenorth>http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/1883/3269/1600/365019/271106tomy%20004z.jpg
04:40<V453000>well I mean adding wagons to an engine and increasing it's TE that way isn't exactly realistic I'm afraid :P
04:42<V453000>In case of rails what I was considering was that the wheel part of the train would change based on track type, too ... that way I could have trains automatically switching between tire/rail/monorail/maglev equipment :D
04:42<andythenorth>shameful
04:42<V453000>which kind of is 4 times more graphics for wheel but you know...
04:42<V453000>profit
04:43<V453000>Basically trying to make track types something more interesting than a track->track->track progression
04:43<V453000>the first tracks would be more brown and the final tracks more gray, but eh
04:43<andythenorth>do some where the track is rack + gear
04:43<V453000>And there's always the floating equipment idea for wet tracks :P
04:44<V453000>that was actually the original idea of my previous train set attempt, I called it GEAR
04:44<V453000>the part concept was the same but the vehicle would look like a giant cog wheel on racks
04:44<V453000>didn't work, the animation callback isn't sensitive enough
04:45<andythenorth>hmm
04:45<andythenorth>it was even realism though
04:45<andythenorth>http://gerald-massey.org.uk/Railway/images/Development/Blenkinsop_toothed_loco_2.png
04:46<V453000>:)
04:46<andythenorth>or http://www.mitchell-railgear.com/products/Mini119/PC35-6.jpg
04:46<V453000>Maybe the idea with wildly different track type progression isn't that bad
04:46<V453000>is it ridiculous? yes
04:46<V453000>is it bad? idk
04:47<andythenorth>progression is weird anyway
04:47<andythenorth>probably makes sense in a big coop game or so
04:47<andythenorth>I use track types to do different transport options
04:48<andythenorth>mostly incompatible always
04:48<V453000>well the thing is that if the track type just gives some stat adjustments to the trains, you can basically keep using one type somewhere, and a different one elsewhere
04:48<V453000>fun part is that the trains are compatible and automatically re-gear their wheel when going from one to another
04:49<V453000>the ultra chibi style might work with it, too
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04:50<andythenorth>V453000: when did you last play mario kart? o_O
04:50<V453000>never actually
04:50<andythenorth>ok so depending on version
04:51<andythenorth>track affects kart a lot
04:51<V453000>right
04:51<andythenorth>e.g. red and green arrows that slow you down / speed you up
04:51<andythenorth>facing you or facing away
04:51<andythenorth>water that has a flow, with or against you
04:51<andythenorth>levitation tracks where you float and handling changes
04:52<andythenorth>shame tracks don't have one way road equivalent :P
04:53<andythenorth>dunno
04:55<V453000>I could also just not show TE visually :D
04:55<V453000>but but
04:56<andythenorth>you're maybe more interested in gameplay mechanics than me :D
04:56<V453000>oh and if I add maglev tracks then those give zero fucks about TE
04:56<V453000>:D
04:56<V453000>XD
04:56<V453000>FUCK
04:56<andythenorth>my view: pick train track, build train, PBS, 5 tiles, go
04:57<V453000>actually nevermind, train behaves based on it's home track type
04:57<V453000>not the one traveled on
04:58<V453000>so TE still works for a RAIL train even on MGLV track
05:03<V453000>yeah the ultra chibi trains have some character :)
05:03<V453000>I'll try to return there
05:05<V453000>ok andythenorth you win
05:08<andythenorth>what's mny prize?
05:08<peter1138>NRT
05:09<andythenorth>everyone's a winner
05:09<andythenorth>V453000: seriously, combining *engines* for effects is good
05:10<peter1138>Hm
05:10<andythenorth>make all same length unit, and have 'speed booster' unit, 'super TE unit'
05:10<andythenorth>etc
05:10<andythenorth>and combinatorial graphics wtf madness
05:10<andythenorth>it's even total realism
05:11*andythenorth time for synthwave and exercise bike
05:16<peter1138>Gosh
05:16<peter1138>Sounds energetic
05:18<andythenorth>15km/h?
05:18<andythenorth>not really :(
05:19<peter1138>Urgh, which stash contains this code I partially wrote :S
05:19<peter1138>I really need to get into the habit of making temporary branches
05:19<peter1138>"git stash" doesn't give you much to go on :p
05:20<andythenorth>branch ftw :)
05:20<andythenorth>then eventuall... -d
05:20<andythenorth>or the branches count gets daft
05:21<peter1138>Yeah, but at least with a branch you're forced to name it, and you can pick just bits of your WIP stuff to commit, rather than having a massive lump of an unnamed stash.
05:22<andythenorth>yair
05:22<andythenorth>I often just name the branch for the ticket number
05:22<peter1138>Yeah, that is enough
05:23<peter1138>My stuff doesn't have tickets though, cos it's mostly shit I think needs fixing. Maybe I should make my own tickets.
05:23<andythenorth>such github
05:27<peter1138>such gitea
05:33<peter1138>Shame it doesn't integrate much with Jenkins.
05:35<peter1138>It does show the build status in a commit, but not within a pull request
05:37<peter1138>Also, go for 20mph.
05:38<V453000>yeah andy I believe the concept is really sound, just need to put it together somehow
05:38<V453000>thinking about it for years without being productive leads to more confusion than solid planning apparentl
05:38<peter1138>And request new features!
05:38<peter1138>Hmm
05:39<peter1138>There's no way to affect vehicle progression other than time, is there?
05:39<peter1138>Maybe a gamescript could do it, but.
05:40<peter1138>When your credit card bill was £2000... :S
05:41<peter1138>Mind you I did buy that bike.
05:42<V453000>:D
05:42<V453000>actually it's nice outside
05:42<V453000>maybe I should go bike
05:46<andythenorth>peter1138: I can't sustain 20mph on the exercise bike, resistance is weird
05:46<andythenorth>and I'm unfit :P
05:46<andythenorth>I can get 18mph
05:46<andythenorth>I used to cycle at 23mph on flat, but that was 20 years ago
05:46<peter1138>Heh
05:47<peter1138>I only once did a ride averaging 20mph
05:47<peter1138>normally 15-17 depending on the group
05:47<andythenorth>need a flat route, cycleway, no stops, no dog walkers, no headwind
05:47<peter1138>or 10 on the mtb :D
05:48<peter1138>cycleways suck for performance
05:48<peter1138>they are designed for pootling along at 10mph
05:49<V453000>I'm happy if I get from work to home, and that's just about 12km and 100m total uphil
05:49<V453000>need to exercise more :D
05:50<andythenorth>I drive everywhere now :P
05:50<andythenorth>I live at the top of a hill
05:50<andythenorth>massive disincentive
05:50<andythenorth>also did I miss the bit above where we added a tech tree?
05:51<andythenorth>vehicles get a label for a tech group
05:51<peter1138>Silly fitbit round errors. Says my weight is xx.4 in one place and xx.3 elsewhere
05:51<andythenorth>maybe you had a wee in between
05:51<peter1138>From the same reading! :p
06:34<Sacro>peter1138: gravitational differences
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07:31<peter1138>Ok I ate, now I'm well above the .4 :p
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08:13<andythenorth>steam horse http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8983/steam_horse.png
08:15*_dp_ expected to see smth like https://orig00.deviantart.net/9926/f/2008/098/9/8/986bf885538b4feb.jpg
08:16<andythenorth>fair
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08:39<Pikka>o/
08:39<Pikka>we didn't win the pub trivia, unfortunately
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08:41<andythenorth>oops
08:43<andythenorth>should I put a photo of my dinner on twitter? o_O
08:43<Pikka>nobody should do that
08:43<Pikka>unless it's an extraordinary dinner
08:44<andythenorth>I've never done it before
08:44<andythenorth>also no more Twitter probs
08:44<andythenorth>social media is over
08:44<Pikka>irc will rise again!
08:45<andythenorth>irc never pretended to be social :)
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09:01<stefino>Hi. How many sprites can I have in industry grf? I read something that each industry tile has an ID and this ID can be 0-255. So there is only 256 sprites what can I use? Thx
09:01<andythenorth>nope
09:02<andythenorth>you can switch sprites in the action 2 chain for the tile graphics
09:02<andythenorth>you only need 1 tile per indsutry industry usually
09:02<andythenorth>oops
09:02<andythenorth>- indsutry
09:03<andythenorth>there is a cb to check the tile's position in the industry layout
09:03<andythenorth>not cb, var
09:03<andythenorth>var 43 https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Industry_Tiles#Relative_position_.2843.29
09:03<stefino>Oh...so this mean kind of industry. And each industry can has XY tiles (graphics)
09:04<andythenorth>you still are limited to 255 industry tiles I think
09:04<andythenorth>but it's enough
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09:04<andythenorth>I could paste FIRS code, but it's very complex
09:04<stefino>I can find it in repo ;)
09:05<andythenorth>'relative_pos' is the var you want
09:05<andythenorth>in nml
09:05<andythenorth>if you have more than 1 industry layout, you also need to check 'layout_num'
09:07<stefino>I'm doing cargos for our vehicle sets and prepared industry set for future. So I read something about coding industry in NML and found this tile-limit.
09:08<stefino>okay, try to find some information about this :) hope that it will be easy to code :D :)
09:09<stefino>I have a plan to look into your code and try to undasrtand how does it work
09:11<stefino>my industry diagram look very similar like your ultimately
09:13<andythenorth>k
09:13<andythenorth>Pikka: all my pax coaches are too small
09:13<andythenorth>but it looks better :P
09:14<andythenorth>what horrors
09:14<Pikka>too small for what?
09:15<andythenorth>windows should be 3px high
09:15<andythenorth>but eh
09:15<andythenorth>I live with it
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09:16<supermop_work>yo
09:17<andythenorth>such supermop_work
09:17<supermop_work>Pikka: the dmu is tops
09:18<Pikka>:D
09:18<Pikka>andy, the windows are a bit small on some, perhaps... especially the earlier ones, they should reach nearer the roofline?
09:19<andythenorth>they should but then it doesn't look so good
09:19<andythenorth>I thought it would be fine, but the steam engine looks massive now :)
09:19<andythenorth>maybe that's a good thing
09:19<supermop_work>andythenorth: for MUs, the 3+1 or 4+1 rakes look weird
09:20<andythenorth>I could split a 4 into 2+2
09:20<andythenorth>it's just more switches :P
09:20<supermop_work>i think it should go 1, 2, 3, 4, 3+2, 3+3, 3+4, 4+4, 3+3+3, ...
09:20<andythenorth>somewhat
09:21<andythenorth>although there is an upper limit to measuring length :P
09:21<andythenorth>but % is useful eh
09:21<supermop_work>hm
09:21<andythenorth>also can't remember if you saw this http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8971/horse_tee_pee_o_2.png
09:22<supermop_work>i know 1 car units coupled to 2s or 3s are prototypical in the uk, but they look odd proportionally
09:22<andythenorth>proto schmoto
09:22<andythenorth>it looks wrong 3+1
09:23<andythenorth>I just need to use odd/even check on lengths that are divisible by 2
09:23<supermop_work>vestigial railcar hanging off the end
09:23<andythenorth>and have a different rule for non-divisible-by-2
09:24<supermop_work>+1 to royal mail magic
09:25<supermop_work>maybe i should also jump into the british rolling stock game
09:25<supermop_work>large logo only set
09:25<supermop_work>A4s in large logo with yellow cab ends
09:25<Pikka>burn the witch
09:26<supermop_work>stephensons rocket in Large Logo
09:26<supermop_work>bolt a piece of sheetmetal onto the side for the logo
09:27<andythenorth>I thought about yellow ends for steam
09:27<andythenorth>as there is a forums request for it
09:30<andythenorth>supermop_work: no comments on the TPO :(
09:30<supermop_work>large logo 91s
09:30<supermop_work>tpo?
09:30<andythenorth>link above
09:30<supermop_work>with the blue window in the middle?
09:30<supermop_work>"9:24:03 AM supermop_work +1 to royal mail magic"
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09:31<@Alberth>o/
09:31<supermop_work>yo Alberth
09:33<andythenorth>will I be able to resist adding engine liveries? :x
09:34<supermop_work>gner A4s
09:34<supermop_work>NSE 43s
09:35<supermop_work>regional railways pendolinos
09:35<andythenorth>there are forums for fake train liveries
09:35<supermop_work>indeed
09:35<supermop_work>really large logo and gner are all you need
09:36<supermop_work>objectively the best
09:36<andythenorth>I considered LL for Horse, on flip
09:36<andythenorth>so do I do the yellow ends?
09:37<andythenorth>if I do yellow ends, and then split body into 1cc, 2cc, many things are possible
09:37<andythenorth>and then on reverse, stripe with white or dark grey somehow
09:38<andythenorth>I like the purity of 1CC, but eh, that's possible, just don't set 2CC
09:38<supermop_work>yellow is not a cc
09:38<supermop_work>you must do yellow
09:38<stefino>so thaks Andy ;)
09:39<stefino>n*
09:39<supermop_work>the 2cc is offensive in its denial of warning panels
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09:41<andythenorth>supermop_work: the yellow is blah blah blah but ok
09:41<andythenorth>I liked pure red
09:42<supermop_work>move to germany
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if your options are to split into groups of 3 or 4, then your switch should maybe check %12
09:44<andythenorth>https://i.redd.it/1387oc4o7efy.jpg
09:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: thanks
09:45<andythenorth>supermop_work: ^^
09:45<andythenorth>no yellow :P
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that way, anything longer than 12 you can split off and do 4's, and the remaining bits from 1-11 you can special case what looks right
09:45<supermop_work>pre-yellow is mythology in my book
09:46<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it's groups of 2 or 3, but it's %6 in that case? o_O
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>that makes sense
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>it should be the "least common multiple"
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>(possibly that name is ill-translated)
09:50<andythenorth>nah it makes sense
09:50<Pikka>supermop_work: as of 2016 british railways are post-yellow, apparently
09:50<supermop_work>tragic
09:51<Pikka>http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/yellow-front-ends-become-optional.html
09:52<V453000>does anyone have a NML example of a bool parameter please? :)
09:52<V453000>I want to make railtype speed limits turn on/off and then separate parameters for the actual speed
09:55<V453000>would this work? https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pfsvrwgfe
09:55<andythenorth>Pikka: so I can ignore yellow :)
09:55<V453000>asking if the names: should be there and if there should be 0 and 1 or T/F
09:56<andythenorth>V453000: I have to go out, good luck! :P
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09:56<V453000>savage!
09:58<V453000>maybe I could just set them to 0 instead for each railtype and that way disable the limit
09:58<V453000>:)
09:59<supermop_work>Pikka: uk trains look wrong without yellow
10:00<V453000>yellow is the best colour to abuse :)
10:05<@Alberth>NFO newgrfs use 0/1
10:07<V453000>I'm already reusing the value directly
10:07<V453000>no bools :)
10:07<V453000>however
10:07<V453000>speed_limit: param_speed_limit_1;
10:07<V453000>it's in some weird units
10:07<@Alberth>https://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial/Parameters <-- first example is a bool parameter
10:07<V453000>when I set 30 in the parameter in game, it's 107 km/h
10:08<@Alberth>100 miles, I guess?
10:08<V453000>oh wow just adding km/h compiled
10:08<@Alberth>it's amazing stuff, every now and then :p
10:08<@Alberth>1km/h may be a little slow :p
10:09<V453000>no it's int variable
10:09<V453000>works
10:09<V453000>the only weird part is that all of my engine km/h is in the kmh-ish
10:09<V453000>and this is in km/h
10:09<V453000>is there any way to set the kmh/ish? :D
10:10<V453000>it's not the biggest deal but it would be really nice
10:10<@Alberth>write more km/h at places?
10:10<V453000>I thought that's what happens in case you don't specify an unit, but in case of railtype it's apparently something else
10:10<V453000>m/s or something
10:10<V453000>that would mean adding km/h everywhere in NUTS
10:10<V453000>that's not what I want :D
10:10<V453000>I just want to set kmhish in PURR
10:17<V453000>introduction_date: date(param_intro_date_1,01,01);
10:17<V453000>this should work right?
10:20<@Alberth>no idea how to read that :)
10:20<V453000>well if I can put the parameter directly into the date format
10:20<V453000>date()
10:21<V453000>one way to find o ut :P
10:21<@Alberth>yep :)
10:27<V453000>it seems to work :D
10:31<@Alberth>\o/
10:40<peter1138>Isn't it.
10:48<V453000>when I do a text in the parameter settings and I want the first part to be green, and the rest the default light blue, doe I have to do this? {GREEN}GREEN{LTBLUE} PURR Speed limit (kmh)
10:48<V453000>or can I have some kind of DEFAULT instead of LTBLUE?
10:48<V453000>like, in case OpenTTD decides the new default is BLACK
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10:55<peter1138>Ah, well I have a patch for that.
10:55<V453000>XD
10:55<V453000>ok using LTBLUE for now
10:55<peter1138>{PREVIOUS_COLOUR}
10:56<peter1138>Does what it says.
10:56<V453000>oh
10:56<V453000>does that work in trunk/stable?
10:56<peter1138>No, it's a patch.
10:56<V453000>yes, well ... :)
10:56<peter1138>I could PR it.
10:56<V453000>could :)
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10:59<peter1138>I'll test it first ;)
10:59<peter1138>Although pretty much all of the code is already in master.
11:01<peter1138>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6737
11:01<peter1138>^ literally a one-liner.
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>i find github very confusing...
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>like i never find the link to download or view stuff
11:03<peter1138>Row of tabs with Conversation, Commits and Files Changed.
11:03<peter1138>Files Changed probably the quickest to view.
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, by the time i find that, i've clicked on at least 5 wrong buttons before
11:04<peter1138>Can also clock on the commit title / hash on the first page.
11:04<peter1138>*click
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>but that's only view, how do i now download it and apply it to my checkout?
11:06<@Alberth>add .patch to the url
11:06<@Alberth>or .diff iirc
11:06<LordAro>or use git as per https://help.github.com/articles/checking-out-pull-requests-locally/
11:07<peter1138>Yeah, the git way is nice.
11:08<V453000>such, 2 releases in 2 consecutive days
11:08<V453000>and it's not jus a hotfix :D
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>it probably is, but nobody ever explains it properly
11:08<V453000>active AF
11:08<peter1138>git fetch <-- command
11:08<peter1138>origin <-- name of configured remote source
11:09<peter1138>pull/6737/head <-- head of pull request
11:09<peter1138>:branchname <-- name of local branch to use
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11:11<peter1138>(then you checkout the branch)
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like way too many steps
11:11<peter1138>It's 2 steps.
11:12<peter1138>You could make an alias to make it a one-liner if you like.
11:14<peter1138>Beats svn. download the patch, copy patch to local folder, get the correct revision. apply the patch, reapply the patch because it failed first time cos you forgot -p.
11:17<@Alberth>you don't even need a local branch name to check it out
11:17<@Alberth>forgot -p? how does that happen
11:20<peter1138>Well, forgot or got the wrong number.
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but it could offer the "git fetch" command ready on the website
11:21<peter1138>The website doesn't know what you called it as a remote.
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>according to https://help.github.com/articles/checking-out-pull-requests-locally/ there should be a "command line instructions" button, but it's nowhere to be found
11:25<peter1138>It is right there.
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>not here
11:27<peter1138>Fair enough. Not there when signed out.
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11:28<peter1138>The command line given is to checkout the branch and then manually merge it, rather than just grab the PR.
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12:02<frosch123>TrueBrain: what do you think about testing compilation with various configure options, like --disable-network. Useful or complete waste of CPU time? #coop used to run a weekly job (https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/OpenTTD/193/). I ask because I would trink it would trigger on #6736
12:03<LordAro>could pick one at random
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12:04<LordAro>...not that that makes any sense
12:04<LordAro>could be part of the nightly build, maybe?
12:04<LordAro>wouldn't want it as part of CI or anything
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12:25<Eddi|zuHause>MOAR AUTOMATED TESTS!
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12:27<andythenorth_>so how many engine IDs we have? o_O
12:27<peter1138>65534?
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>0x4000 if you want articulated vehicles
12:27*andythenorth_ stupid idea
12:28<andythenorth_>group vehicles in buy menu (one of those +\- toggle things)
12:29<andythenorth_>“liveries” and other BAD FEATURES use IDs, not stupid hacks on props
12:30<frosch123>andythenorth_: object gui and airport gui have separate selection boxes, no tree
12:30<andythenorth_>might also work
12:30<frosch123>also who-shall-not-be-named had a views suggestion, similar to how the waypoint gui works
12:30<andythenorth_>UI tbc :p
12:31<andythenorth_>the main thing is ‘use IDs’ not abuse props
12:31<frosch123>you cannot change ids after construction
12:31<frosch123>so, using ids is also bad :)
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>i think the idea of "views" was also to be fixed at construction
12:31<andythenorth_>no that’s one of the good points frosch123 :)
12:32<andythenorth_>no crap with autorefit, autoreplace etc
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>my idea to abuse "views" was to change the number of articulated parts
12:33<andythenorth_>vehicle props are static, no cb36 needed, no subtype abuse
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>so you don't clutter the buy menu with vehicles that are the same, just different length. and different introduction dates
12:34<andythenorth_>no massive spec change, just a prop per vehicle, and a UI extensipn to navigate groups
12:34<andythenorth_>phone typing sucks :(
12:35<andythenorth_>livery over-rides also can get really really detailed :D :p
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12:36<frosch123>ok, sounds reasonable :)
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, airports, stations and stuff had pretty tight limits on the number of groups available to be defined
12:37<andythenorth_>we just need an improved way to navigate in UI :p
12:38<frosch123>which sprite is displayed in the list? the first sub-id, the last-used sub-id, or is there special magic for that line?
12:38<andythenorth_>first in group
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'd still lean towards the "views" idea, which essentially replaces the old cargo subtypes
12:38<andythenorth_>groups _could_ be done like engine order
12:38<andythenorth_>which nml magics
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12:38<andythenorth_>could just define order n times in nml
12:39<andythenorth_>nfo would be less magical :(
12:39<frosch123>essentially "group_id" property :) not mixable between newgrf
12:39<andythenorth_>not mixable
12:39<andythenorth_>similar to stations maybe?
12:39<frosch123>stations would be mixable
12:39<peter1138>station groups are mixable iirc.
12:39<frosch123>also stations have separate name for the group
12:39<peter1138>station classes anyway
12:39<peter1138>maybe not :)
12:40*peter1138 attempts to remember all that work he did over a decade ago.
12:40<andythenorth_>biab
12:41<peter1138>Ah yes, I need to go shopping.
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>be careful, it's Blitzermarathon
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12:58<Wolf01>Moin
13:03<@Alberth>o/
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13:17<peter1138>Why did you leave!?!!!?
13:17<V453000>!!!
13:18<V453000>Who were you with!!!
13:18<andythenorth> Tesco innit
13:18<andythenorth>getting the van washed
13:18<andythenorth>buying tomatoes
13:18<andythenorth>also went climbing
13:19<andythenorth>I used to live here
13:19<andythenorth>I used to live here
13:19<andythenorth>I used to live here https://www.flickr.com/photos/69838920@N04/8562396843
13:19<andythenorth>not in the picture, but I've walked along that train track
13:19<peter1138>Oh I see. Actually I also went to Tesco.
13:19<andythenorth>don't you live in the spiritual home of Tesco?
13:19<andythenorth>or is that Cheshunt?
13:20<peter1138>No, that's Ch...
13:20<andythenorth>when I was a kid, I always wondered how to pronounce Cheshunt
13:20<andythenorth>it was on every tin of beans
13:20<peter1138>I still don't know.
13:21<Wolf01>Mmmh, I lost the WSL icon
13:24<andythenorth>what next?
13:24<peter1138>Group livery GUI
13:24<andythenorth>ok
13:24<andythenorth>winning
13:24<andythenorth>then NRT
13:24<andythenorth>then vehicle-groups-in-buy-menu
13:24<peter1138>Actually...
13:24<peter1138>I'm going out.
13:24<peter1138>Cos it's MTB night.
13:25<andythenorth>fair
13:25<peter1138>Except it'll be weird, cos it's kinda warm.
13:25<andythenorth>it is very warm
13:25<peter1138>Probably less warm at 10pm, mind.
13:25<andythenorth>got a branch in your fork yet? o_O
13:26<peter1138>Wait is that git or bikes? :p
13:26<andythenorth>I meant git, but yes
13:27<andythenorth>hmm there was a grf for black company colour
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13:27<andythenorth>I've lost it :P
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>a fork without a branch is a spear?
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13:38<andythenorth>what wouldn't work with ID groups?
13:38<andythenorth>auto-replace fine
13:38<andythenorth>shared orders fine
13:38<andythenorth>station refit fine
13:38<andythenorth>AI?
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>you now have to make individual autoreplace commands per ID, and cannot set a group to replace with another group
13:41<andythenorth>unless we rewite autoreplace
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>and you still get prototype announcements and randomized introduction dates per ID instead of per group
13:42<andythenorth>probably better not to
13:42<andythenorth>ah the prototypes would suck
13:42<andythenorth>and the random intro dates
13:42<andythenorth>ok
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13:59<peter1138>Uh oh, my water bottle has been outside all day. In the sun. It's going to taste nasty.
14:01<andythenorth>ugh
14:01<peter1138>Oh. What's the allowed list of commit prefixes now?
14:06<LordAro>not Codestyle :p
14:06<LordAro>peter1138: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks/blob/master/hooks/check-message.py#L5
14:23<TrueBrain>frosch123: I agree that a weekly or so job with a big matrix of all kinds of options would be good; but it wont help with a PR?
14:24<TrueBrain>and yeah, CPU power is a bit of an issue there; but I think we can find a way to solve that :)
14:28<andythenorth>anyone else got a broken FIRS 3.0.7? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1205416#p1205416
14:28<andythenorth>I can't repro
14:28<andythenorth>25MB save from a dodgy looking site, won't load in my OpenTTD
14:30<frosch123>maybe they used a patchpack that rebased on one of the broken revisions :p
14:30<andythenorth>given that the reporter is my #1 forums annoyance right now
14:30<andythenorth>I'm not inclined to dig deeper :(
14:31<andythenorth>I can read the FIRS diff for last 100 revs or so, there's nothing there that would break tiles afaict
14:32<frosch123>there were 4 broken revisions on march 11
14:32<frosch123>(ottd revisions)
14:32<frosch123>no nightly though
14:38<andythenorth>I ignore until someone else reports
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14:43<Eddi|zuHause>exif data says: "Software : jgrpp-0.23.0 Description : Graphics set: OpenGFX (5580).NewGRFs:.F1250007 50167EDDB317877D8E42950458E85EA0 firs_industry_replacement_set_3-3.0.7\firs.grf [...]"
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14:48<andythenorth>so JGR
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14:49<andythenorth>thanks
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14:50<Eddi|zuHause>putting this stuff in the exif data is nice, but somehow no "normal" image viewer allows easy access to that
15:01<TrueBrain>why does every project always start as a nice to read shell script ... and end up in a totally unreadable?! :(
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15:02<frosch123>it's worse with perl :p
15:03<TrueBrain>YES! True! :D
15:03<LordAro>TrueBrain: if you're in need of some processing power, i could talk to the hosting company i used to work for
15:03<LordAro>they like sponsoring people
15:04<frosch123>why benevolent?
15:05<TrueBrain>LordAro: often we notice that these deals, how ever much I appreciate them, die within a year
15:06<TrueBrain>the mirrors that survived so far, for example, are of those with people still active for those companies
15:06<TrueBrain>so I am a bit reluctant
15:06<TrueBrain>but, if we can get ccache to work, we can do a lot more compiling in a lot shorter window :D
15:08<LordAro>mm, perhaps
15:08<LordAro>they do sponsor all sorts of OSS projects though
15:08<LordAro>hell, debian, freebsd have a load of infrastructure there
15:09<TrueBrain>bandwidth, or also CPU? :)
15:09<TrueBrain>but yeah, lets first see what we get out of our own box :)
15:09<LordAro>i can't say i know details, but they're not usually too fussed about such limits
15:19<andythenorth>if we can do cattle not pets, we could just go wherever someone will lend us CPUs :)
15:19*andythenorth probably believes the hype too much
15:19<andythenorth>Openstack and friends probably not all that good :P
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that why we use docker now?
15:21<andythenorth>still have to orchestrate VMs
15:21<andythenorth>afaik
15:21<andythenorth>docker has to be run somewhere :)
15:30<TrueBrain>okay .. seems I have a base image for 10.13 .. now lets make a 10.12 real quick, so I can feed andythenorth a binary to test :D
15:30<andythenorth>:)
15:31<TrueBrain>well, I believe someone wise said I should just target 10.9
15:32<TrueBrain>owh, it install clang 3.8 again
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15:32<TrueBrain>not what I wanted
15:34<TrueBrain>I dont get clang .. if I install another version, I have 2 clangs :P
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15:38<TrueBrain>by default it doesnt install alternatives, it seems .. odd :(
15:39<LordAro>mm
15:41<TrueBrain>trying out clang 6.0 .. beucase ... I guess OSX plays nicer with newer versions :)
15:42<TrueBrain>and I havent installed any debug tools .. pretty annoying :D
15:42<TrueBrain>not even 'file' or 'vim' :D
15:42<LordAro>hehe
15:43<TrueBrain>hmmm .. I guess I cannot publish this Docker, as it contains the SDK .. hmmmm
15:44<TrueBrain>I do have to keep that in mind :)
15:54<LordAro>does the dockerfile not just download it?
15:54<LordAro>or do you have to do something more fancy to get it?
15:59<andythenorth>fancy things
15:59<andythenorth>are needed
15:59<TrueBrain>LordAro: I can publish the Dockerfile; just not the Docker
16:00<TrueBrain>(image)
16:00<LordAro>i wasn't really aware you could publish the image
16:00<TrueBrain>... docker .. hub?!
16:00<TrueBrain>hello rock! Talk to LordAro :)
16:01<LordAro>but i guess docker hub can't be building stuff itself
16:01<LordAro>i've not thought about it much
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16:12<TrueBrain>OSX openttd binary is 35 MiB
16:12<TrueBrain>wuthhhh??!!!
16:14<LordAro>something getting statically linked?
16:14<TrueBrain>yup
16:14<TrueBrain>in the old days we had to for OSX
16:14<TrueBrain>I wonder if we stillhave to
16:15<TrueBrain>only for dependencies?
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16:17<TrueBrain>okay, clang 5 already supports x17 ... 6 is still experimental
16:17<TrueBrain>so lets try clang 5 :)
16:17<TrueBrain>hmm
16:17<TrueBrain>those are also marked expr
16:17<TrueBrain>exp
16:17<LordAro>what's x17?
16:17<TrueBrain>old habbit
16:17<TrueBrain>c++17
16:17<LordAro>ah
16:18<TrueBrain>hmm, no, 6 is released
16:18<LordAro>i was about to say
16:18<TrueBrain>7 is in progress
16:18<LordAro>i have it on my system :p
16:18<TrueBrain>so ... why do my downloads show exp
16:18<TrueBrain>that says absolutely NOTHING
16:18<TrueBrain>:P
16:18<LordAro>i know arch is bleeding edge, but i'd have to actually actively try to get experimental releases :p
16:19<TrueBrain>ah, fuck it, 6.0 it is
16:19<TrueBrain>but you didnt say you installed it via your package manager, to name one
16:19<TrueBrain>I have a lot of stuff on my system :D
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16:37<TrueBrain>even if I do not compile it with --enable-static, it is 35 MiB .. damn
16:37<TrueBrain>owh, wasnt static always enabled for OSX ..
16:38<frosch123>osx used to be 3 binaries in one
16:38<frosch123>but i think only one of them exists anymore
16:38<TrueBrain>dont get me started about that :P
16:39<TrueBrain>but I now compiled just one :)
16:39<TrueBrain>no, static is not on by default on OSX
16:39<TrueBrain>why is this so big :P
16:40<frosch123>also, i need to relicense bananas2... both content server and musa are gpl2 only, so i believe i cannot add them to my gpl3+ project
16:40<TrueBrain>please, either go MIT or stay gplv2
16:41<TrueBrain>otherwise it feels you are changing license for the heck of it :P
16:42<frosch123>i wonder what gh does if i force push a new history with a different licence :p
16:42<TrueBrain>it doesnt care
16:42<TrueBrain>andythenorth: https://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/openttd-custom-20180417-g9175c349-OSX.zip
16:42<TrueBrain>give it a spin please :)
16:43<TrueBrain>frosch123: honestly, I would really suggest keeping it GPLv2; or you must have a very good reason not to. A single license for a Project is kinda nice .. less confusion etc :)
16:43<frosch123>yes, i'll now use gplv2
16:45<andythenorth>frosch123: you can add them to gpl3 with permission from copyright holders :P
16:45<andythenorth>admin :P
16:46<andythenorth>TrueBrain: binary works for me \o/
16:46<frosch123>yay, gh noticed the new licence
16:46<TrueBrain>can you play for a bit, see if there are any noticable issues?
16:47<TrueBrain>okay, ICU is 8 MiB .. and I need to compile that static on OSX
16:47<TrueBrain>as otherwise we have to tell people to install macports etc :P
16:47<andythenorth>I leave an AI game going
16:47<andythenorth>no I can't actually, AIs crash a lot
16:47<andythenorth>hmm
16:47<TrueBrain>things like mouse issues
16:47<TrueBrain>FF speed
16:47<TrueBrain>the usual bugs etc with OSX
16:47<+michi_cc>ICU should actually be even more, because you also need the data lib.
16:47<andythenorth>FF is not working anyway
16:47<andythenorth>I test mouse
16:48<TrueBrain>data lib? I dunno .. I just compile static, and that seems to give one working bunch of stuff ..
16:48<TrueBrain>just 30 MiB full of it
16:49<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I was more wonderinf this compiled a bit more proper, if this version is also better than what we currently publish
16:49<TrueBrain>guess it doesnt really matter, and the bugs are really in the code
16:49<TrueBrain>not in the build process :D
16:49<TrueBrain>owh well, working OSX! \o/
16:49<TrueBrain>both CI and release
16:49<andythenorth>there seem to be more bugs on 10.13
16:49<TrueBrain>I target 10.9 now, on michi_cc's advise; can always be changed :)
16:49<andythenorth>I have to get child #1 to test on Sunday
16:49<TrueBrain>and I only target x86_^4
16:50<andythenorth>he gets 1 day a week on ottd
16:50<TrueBrain>and I only target x86_64
16:50<TrueBrain>no more PPC and i386 :P
16:50<andythenorth>mouse has maybe stopped glitching as much
16:50<TrueBrain>can I strip this binary more or something ...
16:50*andythenorth has to try more
16:53<TrueBrain>stripped it is 34 MiB instead of 35 ...
16:53<TrueBrain>lolz
16:54<TrueBrain>well, it always has been this big .. so I guess why stop now
16:54<TrueBrain>happy with the result; bed time now
16:54<TrueBrain>nn!
16:54<TrueBrain>tnx btw andythenorth :)
16:54<andythenorth>thanks to you TB
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17:29<andythenorth>it's pikka
17:30<Pikka>whence
17:30<Pikka>good bordig andy o/
17:31<andythenorth>very coaches http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8985/horse_1860_1900_1930.png
17:31<andythenorth>3 generations
17:31<andythenorth>grey roofs must die though :)
17:33<andythenorth>probably I should add yellow ends also
17:35<Pikka>yellow roofs, obv solution.
17:35<andythenorth>shiny
17:36<andythenorth>I thought about CC roofs https://ssli.ebayimg.com/images/g/vXsAAOSwMNxXZEO0/s-l640.jpg
17:36<andythenorth>kind of like all roofs same colour though
17:36<Pikka>and such integer train lengths :P
17:36<Pikka>I think we had some cc-roof style cars in NARS?
17:37<andythenorth>talgo or something
17:37<Pikka>yar
17:37<andythenorth>you can *not* make integer trains with horse
17:37<andythenorth>unlike with V453000 grfs
17:39<andythenorth>he didn't respond :P
17:40<Pikka>how rare
17:41<V453000>wot xd
17:41<V453000>integer trains?
17:41<V453000>ah 8/8 stuff
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>funnily, integer means 16/8
17:47<andythenorth>is bed
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18:02<Wolf01>'night
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18:41<supermop>Pikka: will civil ai ever build a passenger train?
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18:41<Pikka>not currently, no
18:42<Pikka>currently it builds trains to industries which produce goods, food, or nothing.
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19:25<V453000>Eddi|zuHause2: obviously :)
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