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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-04-21

---Logopened Sat Apr 21 00:00:39 2018
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02:19<andythenorth>o/
02:20<andythenorth>Pikka hi hi
02:21<Pikka>hihihi
02:21<andythenorth>I lost your tracking table link :)
02:21<andythenorth>what haps for 2020-ish?
02:21<andythenorth>nothing?
02:22<Pikka>nothing, no futurisms
02:23<andythenorth>nothing I can steal then :P
02:23<Pikka>I relented and added some 21st century, but just the voyager, an EMU, and the class 70
02:23<Pikka>sadly not :)
02:24<andythenorth>I have a Velaro thing, a class 88 thing
02:24<andythenorth>the problem is that stats are topped out really
02:24<andythenorth>nvm
02:27<andythenorth>I guess the 73 will go on even longer
02:27<andythenorth>I have it twice already
02:27<andythenorth>:P
02:28<Pikka>mmm, electrodiesels
02:33<andythenorth>loads of them in Horse
02:33<andythenorth>bazillions
02:33<Pikka>brazilians
02:33<andythenorth>guess I'll be doing a UK Traxx http://images.archant.co.uk/polopoly_fs/1.1021383.1315958260!/image/1726190890.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/1726190890.jpg
02:33<andythenorth>it's fake enough
02:42<andythenorth>and an Ultra 73
02:44<Pikka>I dunno about electrodiesels, or 3rd rail in general... it's a bit of a faff
02:49<andythenorth>mine work on ELRL
02:49<andythenorth>no 3rd rail, it's a faff
02:53<andythenorth>dunno why I'm doing 2020 stuff
02:53<andythenorth>I got talked into it :P
02:53<andythenorth>same with 1860
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02:59<Pikka>20th century is good... modelrailwaytimes, interesting steam->diesel/electric transitions, there's planes and trucks, the industries and economy mostly make sense
03:01<andythenorth>1860 is too slow
03:01<andythenorth>2020, nothing much changes
03:01<andythenorth>1900-2000 is the best window
03:01<Pikka>yarr
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03:15<peter1138>Do I need a Heavy Lift Lego helicopter?
03:15<Pikka>where?
03:16<andythenorth>the orange and white one?
03:16<peter1138>42052
03:17<andythenorth>I didn't
03:17<andythenorth>enough Lego
03:29<peter1138>Probably
03:34<andythenorth>such livery groups
03:34*andythenorth testing it
03:36<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8989/group_liveries_1.png
03:36<Pikka>noice
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03:41<andythenorth>notice the bug :)
03:42<Pikka>si
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04:04<andythenorth>"Mail Rail" or "Rail Mail"
04:04<andythenorth>?
04:04<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_325
04:10<Pikka>Rail Mail Rail
04:10<Pikka>"postal train services"
04:11<Pikka>Royal Mail Rail Rail Mail?
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04:45<frosch123>hmm, i am kind of disappointed how invisible CONTRIBUTING.md is
04:45<frosch123>it's only mentioned in a small box on the right, and only on the first issue/PR you open
04:46<frosch123>you kind of have to actively look for it
05:05<TrueBrain>the first issue/PR should be enough :D
05:06<TrueBrain>frosch123: reason why you did approve 6736 and not merge it? (before I merge it and you say: NOOOO :D)
05:08<andythenorth>frosch123: link Contributing from README?
05:08<andythenorth>README also overlaps CONTRIBUTING somewhat, notably in the bug reporting
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05:13<Wolf01>Moin
05:14<Pikka>boin
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05:28<peter1138>- $(Q)cp "$(ROOT_DIR)/readme.txt" "$(BUNDLE_DIR)/"
05:28<peter1138>+ $(Q)cp "$(ROOT_DIR)/README.md" "$(BUNDLE_DIR)/"
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05:28<peter1138>Oh no! That misalignment!
05:29<TrueBrain>yeah, I saw .. I was annoyed someone tried to align it to start with
05:29<peter1138>:D
05:30<TrueBrain>but I am really not going to ask a first-time-contributor to fix my OCD :P
05:46<Wolf01>Isn't that what f-t-c are for? :D
05:49<Wolf01>So I can still safely use andy's NRT repository?
05:50<andythenorth>I haven't rebased it
05:51<andythenorth>I don't think we can do any more on NRT currently
05:51<Wolf01>Ok
05:51<andythenorth>needs rebasing
05:51<andythenorth>but it's a mess, so I don't know if the rebase is worth it
05:51<Wolf01>Restart from scratch :D
05:51<andythenorth>I have temporarily quit on NRT
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>what's an .md file anyway?
05:52<andythenorth>markdown
05:52<andythenorth>Wolf01: we might actually need to restart from scratch tbh
05:52<Wolf01>Just another way to call .txt with wikicode
05:53<Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> README also overlaps CONTRIBUTING somewhat, notably in the bug reporting <-- there's a few things you can't say often enough
05:53<andythenorth>well
05:53<TrueBrain>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-CF/pull/7 <- WTB, reviewer :)
05:53<andythenorth>I agree, but one of the frustrations I have in open source is being told 2 ways to do stuff
05:53<andythenorth>and then being told I've done it wrong
05:53<andythenorth>if there's no canonical way, then there's no way to enforce standards
05:54<andythenorth>and giving contributors a public bollocking for doing it wrong when there's no 'right' is really toxic
05:54<TrueBrain>yup
05:54<Wolf01>+1
05:55<andythenorth>I have a soapbox about this
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>so what's the problem here? just make sure readme and contributing don't contradict each other?
05:55<andythenorth>yes
05:55<andythenorth>but then we have to maintain both
05:56<andythenorth>and also https://wiki.openttd.org/Readme.txt
05:56<andythenorth>and also https://www.openttd.org/en/development
05:57<andythenorth>anyway, it's just work :P
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>that wiki page is terribe, why is it there?
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>it even managed to copy-paste the UTF8 wrong
06:00<andythenorth>:P
06:00<peter1138>Wolf01, I reviewed NRT, I'm fairly happy with it barring the TODOs. I think it could do with some logical splitting up, but I don't think the development history is particularly useful (all those merges, and fixes of things which are not going to be relevant)
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06:01<andythenorth>I wondered if we could take the big diff, and logically split it into a handful of commits
06:01<Wolf01>Yup, I agree
06:01<peter1138>Wolf01, Like a patch that introduces and uses RTIDs without actually changing anything would be good.
06:01<andythenorth>we can trash my repo, start a new branch in one of our forks
06:01<peter1138>With my own patches I always find it's easier to clean and split up once it's mostly completed, anyway.
06:01<Wolf01>Could be a good thing to do
06:01<frosch123>TrueBrain: i want to give more people the opportunity to approve things :)
06:02<TrueBrain>but you approved it :P
06:02<TrueBrain>:D
06:03<Wolf01>I could start my own version of NRT with blackjack and hookers, which ends up doing the very same of andy's version :D
06:03<Wolf01>But without savegame compatibility
06:03<andythenorth>Pikka: I tried to do an RES Systems livery http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8972/horse_res.png
06:03<andythenorth>now I have regret
06:04<Pikka>why, what's wrong with it?
06:04<andythenorth>it's not 2CC
06:04<andythenorth>and it looks bad on Scooby Doo
06:04<Pikka>hmm
06:04<Pikka>2cc is overrated :D
06:04<andythenorth>I have turned to the wrong pikka for help :(
06:05<peter1138>frosch123, once it's approved nobody else gets an option to approve it.
06:05<andythenorth>maybe I could colour remap 2CC to a range of dark colours :P
06:05<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE
06:05<Pikka>so you get a different dark colour depending on your 2cc?
06:05<frosch123>hmm, i though it approved something which glx already had approved
06:06<TrueBrain>frosch123: is it me, or didn't he change the game_changelog.hpp? I expect a few lines of API additions there?
06:06<Pikka>sounds like some work :P
06:06<Pikka>for a quantity of benefit
06:06<frosch123>TrueBrain: i saw changes
06:06<andythenorth>Pikka: it's showboating for no real outcome :P
06:06<TrueBrain>it still reads: no changes
06:06<peter1138>Wolf01, as long it's compatible with master ;)
06:06<andythenorth>it won't even be fun :P
06:06<Pikka>well you should definitely do it then
06:07<TrueBrain>frosch123: nevermind, I am blind
06:07<andythenorth>or I could just invent a 2CC livery
06:07<frosch123>TrueBrain: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6736/files#diff-ad7c5b18f9e8282eec2f7015f4d64eb0
06:07<Wolf01>I would just bump the savegame version to 9000 or such
06:07<TrueBrain>frosch123: the 1.8.0 line was throwing me a curve-ball there :D
06:08<peter1138>Ah the unrelated changes issue.
06:08<frosch123>TrueBrain: if it was for OCD i would only have written "GSClient" for the new class instead of every method
06:09<TrueBrain>frosch123: I just asked for another change, so you can still do that :)
06:09<frosch123>TrueBrain: you replaced "dirname $0" with "amd64" is build.sh. intentional?
06:09<TrueBrain>frosch123: yes; first parameter changed
06:09<TrueBrain>check the function :)
06:10<frosch123>it's the only change in the file
06:10<TrueBrain>the function is in another file :)
06:10<TrueBrain>build_linux now takes "arch, distro distro_tag, image_name"
06:11<TrueBrain>instead of "pwd, distro, distro_tag, image_name"
06:15<TrueBrain>tnx frosch123
06:16<frosch123>i deny any responsibility, my mouse button just slipped :)
06:16<TrueBrain>:P
06:16<TrueBrain>that leaves mingw .. and after that the always annoying MSVC ..
06:16<frosch123>if mingw works, is there an advantage to msv?
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: like that politician whatsherface?
06:17<frosch123>crash.dump or something?
06:17<TrueBrain>MSVC delivers much better quality binaries we noticed over time
06:17<TrueBrain>both faster, smaller, etc
06:17<TrueBrain>(as if MSVC knows Windows better :P)
06:18<frosch123>i am sure msvc devs have a love-hate relationship with windows
06:18<TrueBrain>but I think I am first going to look if we can use vspkg for OpenTTD, instead of openttd-useful
06:18<TrueBrain>as openttd-useful is not so useful :)
06:33<Wolf01>https://9gag.com/gag/a1omDD6
06:33<Wolf01>Ok, now somebody should make a grf for that
06:38<andythenorth>voxels
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>cubicles!
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i'm fairly sure you can do that with motion counter
06:49<TrueBrain>hmmmmm ... voxel engines ......
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06:58<Wolf01>I already started a voxel train set, not really good at drawing :(
06:58<ZehMatt>hello everyone
06:59<ZehMatt>I've been wondering now that OpenTTD is on GitHub, why not setup a chat room on gitter?
06:59<TrueBrain>how is one chatroom better than the next? :)
06:59<ZehMatt>well Gitter has an github feed
06:59<andythenorth>I am going to write a bot :)
06:59<TrueBrain>and IRC does not ? :)
06:59<ZehMatt>not that im aware of?
07:00<ZehMatt>unless theres a special bot
07:00<TrueBrain>in #openttd.notice all code-related activity is reported :)
07:00<TrueBrain>out-of-the-box serviced by GitHub :)
07:00<ZehMatt>unicode
07:00<TrueBrain>same works for HipChat, Slack, Discord, and all those other fancy chatty solutions :)
07:01<ZehMatt>well I dont mind
07:01<ZehMatt>just wondering
07:01<andythenorth>thanks for suggesting :)
07:01<TrueBrain>IRC has been our home for many many many years :)
07:01<ZehMatt>i personally love irc
07:01<ZehMatt>but more and more abonden it :p
07:01<andythenorth>I will abandon it when there is a clear winner
07:02<andythenorth>I am waiting
07:02<andythenorth>slack was supposed to win, but hasn't
07:02<TrueBrain>https://xkcd.com/1782/
07:02<andythenorth>I know that one :P
07:02<andythenorth>snapchat might win
07:02<andythenorth>dunno
07:02<TrueBrain>andythenorth: honestly, we dont need a winner; just consensus :)
07:02<andythenorth>same
07:02<ZehMatt>i also have another question, I submitted a patch a while ago on the forums but didn't get much attention, is it worth to do a PR instead?
07:02<ZehMatt>well up to this day I have no idea if the patch is actually wanted or not
07:02<TrueBrain>ZehMatt: first you can check what state it is in on GitHub (same number)
07:03<TrueBrain>we did a massive cleanup
07:03<ZehMatt>lets see
07:03<frosch123>flyspray issues got imported to github
07:04<frosch123>hardly anyone reads forums
07:04<frosch123>you can post the link to the topic here though, if you want a short opinion
07:04<TrueBrain>frosch123: that conclusion (of forums) is not really based on anything :P
07:04<TrueBrain>N = 1 is not a statistical correct way of working :D
07:05<ZehMatt>well by the looks its still the same code
07:05<andythenorth>I read forums 50 times a day
07:05<ZehMatt>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=82535 and thats the patch im talking about
07:05<andythenorth>and I am not anyone
07:05<TrueBrain>owh, I misread, you posted it on the forums
07:05<TrueBrain>yeah, I assumed FlySpray .. stopped reading after the f :P
07:05<ZehMatt>oh, yeah
07:05<TrueBrain>sorry frosch123 :)
07:05<ZehMatt>having those windows on my 144hz screens hurts my eyes ;(
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>ZehMatt: in general, you post to the forum if you want user feedback, and on the github to get developer feedback
07:06<ZehMatt>?
07:06<TrueBrain>owh, even mp4s :)
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07:07<ZehMatt>im just wondering if its worth it doing a PR instead now
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>it can't really hurt, i'd say
07:08<TrueBrain>ZehMatt: do look at your patch in terms of unneeded changes and coding style.
07:09<ZehMatt>yes, I would do it better
07:09<frosch123>it does not affect gameplay, so someone who knowns windows will be able to give an objective review :)
07:09<ZehMatt>with git theres an easy way :p
07:09<TrueBrain>and Windows-only stuff tends to be put in os/ folders
07:09<ZehMatt>ah ok
07:09<ZehMatt>well it shouldnt be windows specific
07:09<ZehMatt>ive done something like that on orct2 aswell
07:10<ZehMatt>GetTickCount has a poor resolution
07:10<frosch123>#include <windows.h> <- pretty windows specific :p
07:10<ZehMatt>video/win32_v.cpp < that too?
07:10<TrueBrain>ZehMatt: and be careful not changing too much in a single commit; having both the resolution change and moving of when stuff is drawn, might make reviewing more annoying
07:10<TrueBrain>ZehMatt: its in the name there :D
07:11<TrueBrain>you can also go for something like timer_win32.cpp I guess?
07:11<ZehMatt>hm yeah
07:11<ZehMatt>anyway im comfortable with git
07:11<TrueBrain>but core/time_func for sure is deceptive :)
07:11<ZehMatt>not so much with patches
07:11<ZehMatt>https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/pulls?q=is%3Apr+author%3AZehMatt+is%3Aclosed
07:11<ZehMatt>done my fair share of training here :p
07:11<frosch123>ZehMatt: "core" is pretty generic container/bitmagic stuff, i would put the time methods directly into video/win32_v.cpp
07:12<TrueBrain>and you made GetHPFLocalTime public, but it is never used :) Unused functions are not needed :)
07:13<TrueBrain>so yeah .. gitify, cleanup, and PR the shit out of it :P
07:13<ZehMatt>well yeah I stated in the forum that it will be used for something else later
07:13<ZehMatt>i dont remember what
07:13<ZehMatt>lol
07:13<TrueBrain>exactly the problem with unused code :D
07:13<ZehMatt>been sitting in the forums for a while now
07:14<TrueBrain>it sounds like a good idea at the time ;)
07:14<ZehMatt>anyway thanks for the info, I'll try to find some time today or tomorrow to revisit this
07:14<TrueBrain>GitHub will patiently await your PR :D
07:14<ZehMatt>and you guys moving to github, very appreciated
07:15<TrueBrain>tnx :)
07:17<andythenorth>mumble mumble liveries
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07:18<TrueBrain>you and your liveries ... what is your obsession with them anyway?
07:19<andythenorth>I don't know
07:19<andythenorth>makes better sprites though
07:20<andythenorth>helps find the best shape
07:20<ZehMatt>so
07:20<ZehMatt>does OpenTTD now include the required dependencies as submodules?
07:20<TrueBrain>which dependencies?
07:20<Pikka>when your prototype is BR in the 80s and 90s, it's difficult not to get carried away with liveries. :)
07:20<ZehMatt>sdl, zlib, png
07:21<TrueBrain>ZehMatt: those are mostly optional; so no. Also, most of our targets already have them from their own distro :)
07:21<TrueBrain>and smaller binaries is always nicer :)
07:22<ZehMatt>okay
07:22<TrueBrain>it is mostly that Windows is the odd one out here :D
07:22<andythenorth>Pikka: probably also NA, Europe etc :)
07:22<TrueBrain>vspkg makes it a bit easier, but OpenTTD has yet to adept that :)
07:23<andythenorth>shall I post my 'possibly 83 85 86' sprite for comparison :)
07:24<TrueBrain>ugh, apt-extracttemplates is horribly slow :(
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07:31<frosch123>andythenorth: a 83-85-86 is quite a long engine
07:31<frosch123>also they missed some wheels
07:31<andythenorth>no no I compress it :P
07:31<andythenorth>it's a montage of pieces :P
07:36<Pikka>hmmm
07:37<Pikka>2-10-10-10-10-10-2 for narshorse? :D
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07:45<andythenorth>Pikka: probably not enough
07:46<frosch123>any recommendation for how to document database table layouts?
07:46<frosch123>if not, i'll try graphviz :p
07:48<FLHerne>Pikka: Wow, just saw your new blog post. 2x UKRS is awesome! :o
07:49<Pikka>:D
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07:51<Wolf01>What where when? Did you finish it already?
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: surely there must be some enterprisey uml thingie
07:53<frosch123>yes, but they are not free and they have non-diffable binary/compressed formats
07:53<frosch123>i can also do ascii art :p
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>then i can't help you :p
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>i learned some database design for university, but forgot everything about it immediately
07:54<Pikka>Wolf01, UKRS3? not *quite* finished, no.
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>and now i have to look up the simplest sql commands every time
07:55<frosch123>drop table?
07:55<Wolf01>frosch123: can plantuml help? Uses graphwiz and adds some stuff on top
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: or update (what?) (where?) (in which order?)
07:56<frosch123>ah, there are plenty of tools in debian already, plantuml is one of them
07:56<frosch123>it's called text-to-UML converter, sounds good :)
07:57<frosch123>oh, there is also postgresql-autodoc
07:57<ZehMatt>DELETE DATABASE 'begone';
07:57<frosch123>hmm, but that is too chicken-egg
07:58<frosch123>"funny way for visual programming in perl" <- i do not even want to know ...
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07:58<Eddi|zuHause>stop, you've dived into the deep end!
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09:11<TrueBrain>okay ... lets see what clang 6.0 has to yell about our source ..
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09:15<LordAro>much the same as clang4
09:17<TrueBrain>bah; docker run has no --pull
09:17<TrueBrain>stupid
09:21<TrueBrain>I think I now fixed that when it fails, you can just click Details, and see why it failed .. instead of having to open the line above
09:21<TrueBrain>hopefully that helps new people mostly :)
09:22<LordAro>:)
09:24<TrueBrain>docker hub is a bit weird today ... slow connections, hangs from time to time ..
09:35<TrueBrain>and a week later, and no reply once again from AWS .. seems they are either incapable of replying, or just dont give a shit :( Getting annoying .. not even a reply: tnx for your email, we will get back to you, or anything
09:35<TrueBrain>it is like: HELLO?! ANYONE HOME?!
09:36<LordAro>sure you sent it to the right place? :p
09:36<LordAro>2 working days is usually as long as you wait
09:36<TrueBrain>3rd place I tried now
09:36<frosch123>it's like info@ :p
09:36<TrueBrain>frosch123: with the huge difference that they are a business :P
09:37<TrueBrain>first I tried Support Center .. got a reply within 48 hours totally unrelated to my questions
09:37<TrueBrain>second was the Sales form on their website .. 2 weeks later, still nothing
09:37<TrueBrain>third was an email to one of their listed email addresses .. big silence
09:39<LordAro>sounds like you need to get lucky with their support centre
09:40<TrueBrain>at least I am happy with GitHub .. they do reply to their emails
09:40<LordAro>:)
09:40<andythenorth>I am very surprised AWS have any staff tbh
09:41<LordAro>did you get a response about the PR/rebase issues?
09:41<TrueBrain>yeah; they resolved it
09:41<LordAro>:)
09:41<LordAro>did they give any details?
09:41<TrueBrain>nah; didnt ask for it either
09:41<LordAro>fair
09:42<TrueBrain>andythenorth: you are surprised their milion dollar industry has staff? :P
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09:44<TrueBrain>so clang 6.0 has the pool mutex thingy, and ini_set thingy as warning
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09:45<LordAro>not seen an ini_set thingy before
09:45<TrueBrain>its hiding between all the mutex warnings :)
09:45<TrueBrain>BaseSound::ini_set
09:45<TrueBrain>similar error
09:45<LordAro>interesting
09:46<LordAro>https://github.com/LordAro/OpenTTD/commit/1ef27df426cfa5d586c76813064470e8949ae049 oh no, i have seen it before
09:46<TrueBrain>our new peter1138 :( *I have a patch for that*
09:46<TrueBrain>ffs
09:47<LordAro>lol
09:47<LordAro>not even close
09:47<TrueBrain>we can do without the rant in the commit message, and make it 2 commits, and get it in PRs or something :P
09:49<TrueBrain>Gestalt deprecation .. guess something for michi_cc to clean up :D
09:49<TrueBrain>okay, OSX CI works, and validates :)
09:49<andythenorth>\o/
09:49<andythenorth>yay
09:50<peter1138>hi
09:50<frosch123>LordAro: didn't that patch fail to compile with gcc or something?
09:50<LordAro>frosch123: see the commit message :p
09:51<frosch123>oi, progres :)
09:59<LordAro>TrueBrain: frosch123: tada
09:59<andythenorth>Pikka: shall I electrify Scooby Doo? o_O
10:01<TrueBrain>LordAro: okay, the old code was a bit weird... SmallStackPool using a variable defined in station.cpp .. that feels a bit random :D
10:02<Pikka>probably, andythenorth
10:03<andythenorth>:P
10:03<andythenorth>maybe later
10:03<LordAro>TrueBrain: little bit :)
10:03<andythenorth>biab
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10:03<TrueBrain>too bad LordAro your new patch doesnt run against clang 6.0 on the CI now .. so I cannot see what it does :D
10:03<LordAro>oh, your clang6 hasn' be- yes
10:04<frosch123>maybe you can arrange a trade?
10:04<TrueBrain>I can do something a lot more evil :D
10:04<TrueBrain>just cancelled the CI build, and injected my Jenkinsfile :D
10:05<TrueBrain>LordAro: but do I get it right, that there can be only 1 SmallStackPool?
10:05<TrueBrain>or is the templating also taking care of the singleton being per usage?
10:06<frosch123>there is one pool per template parameters
10:06<LordAro>^
10:07<LordAro>i've not changed any functionality
10:07<TrueBrain>Templates make my head spin :P
10:07<LordAro>nested templates make my head spin :p
10:08<frosch123>light bulbs are so old fashioned
10:08<frosch123>stop screwing them in
10:11<TrueBrain>trying to understand this piece of code requires more brainpower than I would like ... ugh
10:11<LordAro>frosch123<lightbulb>::screw();
10:12<TrueBrain>okay, so StationIDStack is the only one using the SmallStack
10:12<LordAro>TrueBrain: no, i don't properly understand why there's a problem in the first place, nor how the solution works, only that it does :p
10:13<TrueBrain>LordAro: honestly, that is not helping .. that even makes me more scared :P
10:13<LordAro>TrueBrain: it's quite probable that you could replace it with std::stack or something
10:13<LordAro>TrueBrain: :p
10:13<TrueBrain>just the typedef that was on line 38 is so fucked up
10:13<frosch123>std::stack won't work
10:13<TrueBrain>it makes things worse
10:13<frosch123>it's not a stack, but a DAG iirc with shared noes
10:13<frosch123>*nodes
10:14<TrueBrain>so initial in src/station.cpp the singleton was created
10:14<frosch123>anyway, looks fine to me
10:14<TrueBrain>just impossible to read ..
10:15<frosch123>i can't quite remember whether we prefix static methods with the classname, but probably we do
10:16<TrueBrain>a static in a header file .. ugh :P
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10:17<TrueBrain>either way, clang 6.0 shows a lot less now :)
10:17<LordAro>:)
10:18<LordAro>you can probably add Werror to the CI now
10:18<TrueBrain>I was thinking of injecting it indeed
10:18<TrueBrain>(CFLAGS="-Werror" ./configure)
10:18<LordAro>exactly
10:18<TrueBrain>but I think OSX is going to fail
10:18<LordAro>wouldn't want to change the build system itself - all the weird platforms that wouldn't go so well
10:18<TrueBrain>deprecated functions
10:19<TrueBrain>and 3 other things I would like to do: mingw, msvc, and see if we can run a matrix of all configuration settings
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10:21<TrueBrain>seems today we will merge the 40th PR :)
10:21<TrueBrain>still a shitload of triage to do .. ugh :P
10:21<frosch123>you will have to reject PRs if you want them to overtake the commit numbers
10:21<frosch123>may make a controversial close reason :)
10:22<TrueBrain>I don't follow, sorry :D
10:28<TrueBrain>hmm .. one serious warning on OSX file .. null pass to a callee that requires a non-null argument
10:29<TrueBrain>now do mine LordAro!
10:30<LordAro>TrueBrain: aah, i don't even remotely know objc
10:30<TrueBrain>not yours to fix :)
10:30<TrueBrain>but I meant my PR :)
10:31<@Rubidium>LordAro: you know it's name, that's more than the vast majority of humans... so you're relatively seen quite familiar with it ;)
10:31<LordAro>TrueBrain: well i can't merge :p
10:31<LordAro>Rubidium: nooo
10:31<TrueBrain>tnx LordAro :)
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10:48<peter1138>Hmm, what happened to the sunshine...
10:50*Pikka checks outside
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10:52<TrueBrain>hmm .. how to get mingw libraries ...
10:52<LordAro>TrueBrain: msys2
10:52<LordAro>(the wiki page is about 5 years out of date)
10:53<TrueBrain>now try again, knowing I am cross-compiling via Dockers :)
10:53<LordAro>well.
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11:01<ZehMatt>time to get productive
11:02<TrueBrain>oh-oh
11:03<TrueBrain>meh; appears I have to compile the dependencies myself .. I hate that ..
11:04<LordAro>TrueBrain: i'd imagine it'd be easier to get a windows machine
11:04<LordAro>then you can do mingw & msvc
11:04<TrueBrain>I think you have no clue :D
11:04<TrueBrain>Docker doesnt work on Windows .. not really anyway
11:04<LordAro>well fine, don't use docker for them
11:04<TrueBrain>and that is fine how? :)
11:05<TrueBrain>that means I cannot accept a random PR
11:06<LordAro>https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/heaths/2017/09/18/installing-build-tools-for-visual-studio-2017-in-a-docker-container/ well MS seems to think it works fine
11:06<LordAro>what am i missing?
11:06<TrueBrain>they think a lot of things
11:06<TrueBrain>I invite you to try :)
11:07<TrueBrain>Microsoft is very good in hiding little details
11:07<LordAro>heh, true
11:08<TrueBrain>its really bad: Windows Dockers run in Hyper-V (and ONLY in Hyper-V)
11:08<TrueBrain>Hyper-V is ONLY available on Windows 10 Pro (and Windows Server 2016)
11:08<TrueBrain>it is nothing what it looks like
11:09<TrueBrain>it wouldn't even surprise me if it runs a minimialized kernel, and is not a container at all :P
11:09<TrueBrain>but I never checked that out
11:09<TrueBrain>but Hyper-V suggests strongly to me that it is virtualization, not containerization
11:09<TrueBrain>(which are 2 completely different things)
11:09<LordAro>mm
11:09<TrueBrain>but, Microsoft can act like they jumped on the wagon and now support Docker or something
11:10<TrueBrain>also, an instance that can run Windows Docker, cannot run Linux Dockers
11:10<TrueBrain>which is pretty much annoying as fuck
11:10<TrueBrain>I have a MSVC Docker which kinda works .. but ugh .. it is such shit
11:11<TrueBrain>hmm, mingw zlib is available via debian . .but no other packages
11:11<TrueBrain>such shame
11:12<TrueBrain>running a Win10 in a VM with 3GB RAM for a few months shows a Low memory over time
11:12<TrueBrain>lol
11:13<TrueBrain>disk is completely full
11:13<TrueBrain>lol
11:13<TrueBrain>with what?! :D
11:15<ZehMatt>genworld_gui.cpp(903): warning C4334: '<<': result of 32-bit shift implicitly converted to 64 bits (was 64-bit shift intended?)
11:15<ZehMatt>hm
11:15<ZehMatt>that should be probably fixed
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11:15<peter1138>Why does everyone else get these compiler warnings that I don't see
11:16<TrueBrain>because compiling with 'make 2>/dev/null' is a stupid idea to begin with
11:16<ZehMatt>depends on what compiler you are using
11:16<peter1138>TrueBrain :D
11:16<TrueBrain><3 :)
11:17<ZehMatt>error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol __iob_func
11:17<ZehMatt>but this seems not so nice
11:17<Wolf01>Mmmh, no way to rebase from VS, or at least I don't seem to be able to do the same steps of CLI
11:18<peter1138>VS is pretty basic
11:19<Wolf01>It has rebase, but not as I need :P
11:19<peter1138>I couldn't be arsed with faffing about setting up the library paths all the time, so use a Linux VM :p
11:19<ZehMatt>no thanks
11:20<Wolf01>I use a vcxproj.user file for that, I just copy it and done
11:20<peter1138>Wolf01, I saw something about that but couldn't figure out how to set it up.
11:20<peter1138>Please share :D
11:21<Wolf01>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ps8ymayxf
11:22<TrueBrain>someone should check out how easy it is to use vspkg over openttd-useful, really :)
11:22<Wolf01>I declared 2 env variables, but you can put the direct paths
11:23<ZehMatt>there we go, compiled
11:25<ZehMatt>ok
11:25<ZehMatt>one suggestion
11:25<ZehMatt>please do not make the intermediate directory the same as the output directory :s
11:26<ZehMatt>having the output between all the object files isnt exactly structured imho
11:26<TrueBrain>GitHub welcome PRs i all shapes and forms
11:26<Wolf01>So, where did I pushed now?
11:26<ZehMatt>i might as well just do that
11:27<ZehMatt>but i guess i have to fix all the solutions
11:27<frosch123>they are generated
11:27<TrueBrain>not "fix", as that suggests broken. Change :)
11:27<ZehMatt>well lets first define where it should go
11:27<frosch123>so you need to change the generation script :)
11:27<ZehMatt>my proposal would be $(SolutionDir)..\binaries\$(Platform)\$(Configuration)\
11:28<ZehMatt>or $(SolutionDir)..\output\$(Platform)\$(Configuration)\
11:28<TrueBrain>build directories should be called just that .. build. Never binaries. binaries is where resulting binaries are. Not in between.
11:28<frosch123>afaik you have to put it into a specific path so it runs
11:28<frosch123>otherwise it won't find language packs
11:28<TrueBrain>on linux we put the resulting binary in bin/, where the lang/ are too
11:28<ZehMatt>ah ok
11:29<ZehMatt>so ill just use that then
11:29<TrueBrain>hmm .. the moment you reboot a Windows machine, and it doesn't come back up .. surprised? Nope!
11:29<Wolf01>I could say the same of my ubuntu installation
11:30<ZehMatt>or mint
11:31<ZehMatt>i doubt any OS is safe from never coming back :D
11:33<TrueBrain>the difference is I know how to debug linux boot failures .. windows ... is more of a black box :D
11:36<Wolf01>TrueBrain: I rebased from upstream/master got only 2 commits, committed to origin/master, github still showing 52 commits behind OpenTTD/master, what is happening?
11:36<TrueBrain>did you do: git fetch upstream ?
11:37<Wolf01>Heh
11:37<Wolf01>Forgot to add that command
11:38<ZehMatt>so yeah
11:38<ZehMatt>i have to still fix all templates
11:38<ZehMatt>not the script
11:38<ZehMatt>took me a while to understand what its doing lol
11:39<TrueBrain>again, 'fix' is not the right word for this context :)
11:39<ZehMatt>from where i see it, its broken
11:39<TrueBrain>'fix' suggests broken; opinions cannot be broken :)
11:39<TrueBrain>and then we strongly disagree :) It is a choice :)
11:39<ZehMatt>linux is doing it fine, no?
11:40<ZehMatt>puts it into bin
11:40<TrueBrain>and you might dislike the choice .. but it is what was defeault for MSVC for years :)
11:40<ZehMatt>ok then time to change/fix that
11:40<TrueBrain>so I am not against change .. just make sure people understand its a change towards an opinion :)
11:40<TrueBrain>not a change towards "correctness"
11:49<TrueBrain>so .. the Windows VM's disk was full .. I shut it down, it wants to do an update .. I kill it, extend the disk size ... but it refuses to boot without doing to update ... ffs .. YOUR DISK IS FULL! You are not going to be able to do the update .......
11:50<TrueBrain>but it insists on trying ..
11:54<TrueBrain>Wolf01: did that fix it? :)
11:54<Wolf01>YEs
11:54<TrueBrain>cool :)
11:54<Wolf01>Thx
11:54<TrueBrain>possible might be good to write something on the wiki ? :)
12:05<ZehMatt>eh
12:07<ZehMatt>it complains about my commit message
12:09<ZehMatt>jeez
12:13<Wolf01>peter1138: I'm trying to split the NRT patch to just introduce RTIDs, but I find it difficult to split at the right point... to me it looks like all-or-nothing
12:14<peter1138>Heh, I dunno if it's achievable, indeed.
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12:15<Wolf01>The core part is composed bt RTIDs in place of the RoadTypes enum, but it needs subtypes too, map array changes, a bit of accessors
12:16<Wolf01>UI, newgrfs and conversion could come after
12:16<Wolf01>But also the compatibility check part should be part of core
12:19<frosch123>oh, i only have python 3.5 and i uses a 3.6 feature
12:19<TrueBrain>oh-oh
12:19<TrueBrain>RUN
12:19<TrueBrain>:D
12:20<frosch123>Wolf01: what if the inital RTID class only has the basetype member?
12:21<Wolf01>Yep, I could try that
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12:34<TrueBrain>owh Windows owh Windows ... first you update my machine 3 times to 100% .. and now you only show blackness ..
12:37<Wolf01>Give it time
12:37<TrueBrain>owh, I HAVE ICONS!
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12:40<andythenorth>o/
12:41<peter1138>yes
12:46<andythenorth>I broke webster
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12:51<andythenorth>peter1138: not cycling? o_O
12:51<peter1138>Already been out
12:53<andythenorth>group liveries? o_O
12:53<peter1138>Already fiddling
12:53<peter1138>;)
12:54<andythenorth>it's quite 'interesting' at the moment
12:54<peter1138>I'm changing the UI totally.
12:55<peter1138>Already fixed things like moving vehicles between groups.
12:55<peter1138>Although not RV chains yet.
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12:57<TrueBrain>LordAro: and this is why I didnt want to try Docker on Windows ... such a horrible experience doing that on a VM :P
12:58<TrueBrain>last updated .. May 2017
12:58<TrueBrain>owh boy
12:59<TrueBrain>lets play: how many times does it need to reboot before all updates are installed!
12:59<TrueBrain>if you take a shot every time it reboots .. you will be drunk .. well, no, not really, as it takes such an amount of time between the cycles, you can get pregnant and have the baby before it is done ...
13:00<frosch123>don't drink during pregnancy
13:00<TrueBrain>pffff, don't tell me I cannot drink when my wife is pregnant!
13:01<frosch123>"eating for 2" vs "drinking for 3" :)
13:01<LordAro>TrueBrain: yay
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13:17<Wolf01>avail_roadtypes = (RoadTypes)c->avail_roadtypes | ROADTYPES_ROAD; // road is available for always for everybody
13:17<Wolf01>in
13:17<Wolf01>return HasBit(c->avail_roadtypes | ROADTYPES_ROAD, rtid.basetype); // road is available for always for everybody
13:17<Wolf01>is right?
13:32<TrueBrain>so Windows updater is stuck at: Preparing to install updates 0%
13:32<TrueBrain>:(
13:32<+glx>just slow not stuck
13:33<TrueBrain>its saying that for 30 minutes ..
13:33<TrueBrain>but I guess you are right
13:33<+glx>probably downloading stuff, or trying to
13:33<TrueBrain>just very very very very very slow
13:33<TrueBrain>no, downloading went prtty okay
13:33<TrueBrain>it did that before :)
13:33<TrueBrain>its using 100% CPU .. so it must be doing something :D
13:35<frosch123>mining :)
13:35<TrueBrain>haha, infecting the Windows Updater with a Cryptominer :D
13:35<+glx>I remember doing 1709 upgrade 2 times, just because the first time I shutdown the computer at the "end" instead of rebooting
13:35<TrueBrain>that would really work ... nobody would notice it for a long time :P
13:36<+glx>oh and the first time it took 14h to do it, 12h the second time
13:36<+glx>but I was using the computer normally during the upgrade so it could have slowed things
13:37<+glx>and yes shutdown and restart later is not a reboot for windows 10 :)
13:41<TrueBrain>OEH OEH OEH OEH!
13:41<TrueBrain>5%
13:41<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: it's probably just running the virus scanner and Windows defender on all the stuff it just downloaded ;)
13:42<TrueBrain>I doubt you installed a virus scanner on that machine :P
13:42<+glx>windows defender should be enough for it
13:43<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: Windows already installs a virus scanner but allows you to pay to install an unsafer one ;)
13:43<TrueBrain>I know; not what I said :)
13:43<TrueBrain>you created this VM
13:43<TrueBrain>and I doubt you did more than needed :D
13:43<+glx>oh there are free alternatives too
13:44<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: exactly, I didn't uninstall it
13:44<+glx>I think you can't
13:44<+glx>as it's deeply integrated in the system even if disabled
13:45<+glx>it's like uninstalling IE, it just hides it
13:48<Wolf01>Mmmh, since when VS finds references on comments O_o
13:49<+glx>it even has github integration :)
14:00<TrueBrain>so when it was done installing, there was an error, and it is downloading again .. lol ? :(
14:01<TrueBrain>I should just click the window away and check back in a few hours I guess :D
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14:14<andythenorth>hmm
14:15<andythenorth>actually realistic liveries are a disaster at 1x zoom
14:15*andythenorth should sack this one I'm drawing
14:16<peter1138>Hmm, can scrollbars scroll multiple widget... oh, it's a single matrix anyway. DUH.
14:17<peter1138>Holy shit, that bit actually works.
14:20<peter1138>https://imgur.com/a/OB0T2zw
14:21<peter1138>> Tesco
14:29<TrueBrain>bug #6742 .. what do you guys think .. bug or not? :D
14:29<TrueBrain>well, something is a bug .. either that you can build it, or that you need CTRL for it :D
14:30<frosch123>yes, that inconsistency is known, noone made a pr :)
14:30<TrueBrain>but what is correct? :)
14:30<frosch123>competitor stations should be ignored
14:31<TrueBrain>tnx :)
14:31<TrueBrain>good-first-issue it is :)
14:32<LordAro>could've sworn i've aeen #6742 as a not-a-bug before
14:32<TrueBrain>*shrug* I havent seen it during cleanup I think
14:33<TrueBrain>Windows still hasnt installed the first 7 patches ...
14:33<TrueBrain>what a horrible experience :(
14:33<frosch123>i found #4185 on my list :)
14:33<Wolf01>Mmmh, I think I need to implement also RoadTypeIdentifiers <- (plural), with all the pack/unpack functions, or make loops in place of Roadtypes
14:34<Wolf01>But now, /me -> pub
14:34<TrueBrain>seems they went another way in that bug report .. no clue why they did so difficult about it .. but yup, 8 year old bug :)
14:34<TrueBrain>enjoy Wolf01
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14:57<TrueBrain>I wonder why Windows updates are so slow .. there is no disk IO, there is no memory IO, there is no CPU ..
14:57<TrueBrain>is it processing my update in the cloud or something?
14:57<+glx>it's windows, don't ask ;)
14:57<TrueBrain>23% ...... ugh
14:58<TrueBrain>at least it is the latest update it is upgrading too ..
14:58<TrueBrain>just so I can find out of Hyper-V works ... quiet curious if it does
14:58<TrueBrain>and how fast/slow :P
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15:14<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: The null-pointer OSX warning is bogus (at least the one I know about :) And the only way to get rid of the Gestalt warning is by strictly compiling 10.10+ only.
15:28<andythenorth>engine type A | type B | none of the above? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8990/horse_ultra_shoebox.png
15:38<andythenorth>ok Type B
15:38<FLHerne>TBH, I can't see the difference :P
15:38<FLHerne>Oh, pantos?
15:40<andythenorth>cab window + roof
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15:41<andythenorth>one looks longer and more brute
15:41<FLHerne>Ah
15:41<andythenorth>one looks smaller and dainty
15:41<FLHerne>B is better
15:41<andythenorth>yup
15:45<TrueBrain>michi_cc: it says that the Gestalt is deprecated in 10.8 .. I assume that means they added somethat better, not?
15:45<TrueBrain>owh, Windows update is at 25%! 2% in ..... 1 hour ....
15:47<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: With 10.10 :p
15:47<andythenorth>I should have done this livery eh :P
15:47<andythenorth>https://www.flickr.com/photos/jmupton2000/11669126135
15:48<TrueBrain>michi_cc: that is silly ... but it is OSX .. so meh
15:48<TrueBrain>I dont see an issue targetting 10.10+ tbh
15:48<andythenorth>:o I did do this livery, by accident http://www.ekmpowershop4.com/ekmps/shops/morrismodels/images/hornby-r3045-class-73-electro-diesel-loco-gatwick-express-73202-david-berry-3473-p.jpg
15:48<TrueBrain>10.9 or 10.10 .. doubt it makes a difference
15:49-!-supermop [~supermop@pool-71-167-52-194.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:52<FLHerne>andythenorth: Oh, I assumed it was https://farm8.static.flickr.com/7573/16054805671_9799452503_b.jpg
15:52<LordAro>michi_cc: the warning implies that thr NS stuff was already added
15:52<LordAro>is that not the case?
15:52<TrueBrain>lets see ... internet says 10.8 is 1.6% and 10.9 is 4% ... 10.10 is 11% and up
15:52<andythenorth>FLHerne: to be strictly accurate, it was
15:52<FLHerne>(in which case type A is technically more accurate, but meh)
15:52<TrueBrain>so < 5% ..
15:55<+michi_cc>LordAro: Apple has deprecated lots of stuff without a replacement... Apparently somebody noticed with 10.10 that version detection is somewhat important.
15:55<andythenorth>Apple's OS X shoes are currently clown shaped
15:56<andythenorth>for 10 years choosing lock-in at least got a high quality OS
15:56<andythenorth>now...just lock-in
15:56<andythenorth>and soon, proprietary CPUs
15:56<TrueBrain>I think andythenorth is really sour about 10.13 :P
15:57<andythenorth>I am sour about macs that cost 2x what they used to, and don't work
15:57<andythenorth>the root password vuln was awful
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15:57<+glx>it was fun to follow on twitter ;)
15:58<TrueBrain>still at 25% :(
15:59<+glx>I told you, took 12h to do on my machine
15:59<TrueBrain>incredible ...
15:59<TrueBrain>how bad can you write software :(
15:59<TrueBrain>it is really not doing anything .. the machine is sitting near idle
15:59<TrueBrain>like they dont give a fuck, as it has been like that for ever ..
15:59<+glx>and the important step is reboot at the end, no shutdown :)
16:00<TrueBrain>I remember when I worked for a company that hosted Windows Server
16:00<TrueBrain>the monthly update round was HORRIBLE
16:00<TrueBrain>was clicking it at 0900 in the morning
16:00<TrueBrain>and HOPING it was done around 2200
16:00<TrueBrain>and that was the monthly update :(
16:00<TrueBrain>back then it just too for ever to do DRM stuff, if I understood it correctly
16:00<andythenorth>OS X updates have bricked my macs before
16:01<andythenorth>and they're getting less optional :P
16:01*andythenorth is boring now
16:01<TrueBrain>and I wouldnt mind if updates are slow
16:01<TrueBrain>but it is stuck at 25% for over an hour
16:01<TrueBrain>that is just ... BAD design
16:01<TrueBrain>owh, and it is only PREPARING to install
16:01<TrueBrain>it is not even installing
16:01<TrueBrain>dunno what is worse
16:01<TrueBrain>well, yelling at it helped: 30% now
16:02<+glx>the more you look at it, the slower it goes
16:02<TrueBrain>I just proofed you wrong :P
16:02<TrueBrain>while watching a tv serie it did 0% .. while yelling at it, it did 5%!
16:03<frosch123>will anyone shout at me if i use sqlalchemy in bananas2?
16:04<TrueBrain>I am sure someone will; but we will just mute that person
16:04<+glx>try MSSQL ;)
16:05<frosch123>i learned various fancy terms today :)
16:05<TrueBrain>cloud?
16:05<TrueBrain>machine learning?
16:05<TrueBrain>private cloud?
16:06<frosch123>nah, older... "active record" and "data mapper" patterns
16:08<TrueBrain>and how did that make you feel?
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16:11<TrueBrain>update went from 33% to 98% .. LOL
16:11<frosch123>they confused me. the former seems more popular, but the latter seems way better :p
16:12<TrueBrain>first is better named ORM
16:12<TrueBrain>the second is weird
16:12<TrueBrain>but if you pick SQLAlchemy, you will be using the first anyway :)
16:12<LordAro>frosch123: i could object...
16:13<TrueBrain>@kick LordAro muted
16:13-!-LordAro was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [muted]
16:13<TrueBrain>told you I would mute them :)
16:13<frosch123>TrueBrain: both are ORM, and SQLAlchemy used the second
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16:13<LordAro>so rude
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16:13<TrueBrain>you were warned :P
16:13<LordAro>i said "could"
16:13<TrueBrain>frosch123: SQLAlchemy has 2 ways to access the DB, which is rather annoying
16:13<TrueBrain>if you use the "latest" and advised method
16:13<TrueBrain>I am sure you will be fine :)
16:13<TrueBrain>if you use the old method .. you are in for some though times
16:14<LordAro>my only experience of it is being locked to some weird prerelease version, as the program made use of a feature that was removed
16:14<TrueBrain>(it works fine when you start out .. but soon hit a few walls :P)
16:15<TrueBrain>(and their new method uses their old method in the background ... just to make matters worse)
16:15<TrueBrain>honestly, I never found a good ORM in Python
16:15<TrueBrain>Django ORM is pretty nifty
16:15<TrueBrain>but it comes with so many additional shit .....
16:17<TrueBrain>few things about SQLAlchemy that might be useful: don't think you understand the engine and/or session, and change the defaults; you don't understand, and you will make matters worse :P
16:17<TrueBrain>use declarative bases .. don't use Table()
16:17<TrueBrain>use a session; don't worry about multithreading
16:18<TrueBrain>define relations over their PK; and a PK should be an auto-incremental int .. not some combination of other shit :P
16:18<TrueBrain>(but that is generic database design :P)
16:19<TrueBrain>don't think you can write better queries; shooting yourself in the foot is a nice thing to do from time to time, but not a long time survival plan :P
16:19<frosch123>yay, i used auto-increment int :)
16:19<TrueBrain>believe that was the more important ones I had people doing wrong :P
16:20<TrueBrain>especially the configuration of engine/session ..... seen so many bugs because of that :P
16:20<TrueBrain>write the ORM, not the database you picked, basically :D
16:21<TrueBrain>tnx michi_cc :D
16:21<TrueBrain>ORMs are these things ........ people can fuck it up so badly .... :P
16:22<TrueBrain>I like the SQLAlchemy getting started :) It is nice :)
16:22<frosch123>ok, found what you meant with old/latest. seems like i only looked at "latest" examples so far
16:22<TrueBrain>just keep doing that
16:22<TrueBrain>do not look into Table
16:22<TrueBrain>STAY AWAY
16:22<TrueBrain>:P
16:22<frosch123>i would not have found them, if you hadn't said :p
16:23<TrueBrain>its in the getting started, first section even :)
16:23<TrueBrain>and a lot of people go like: OWH! But I dont need the ORM! I can just make a Table and do it ALL BY MYSELF
16:23<TrueBrain>dont be that guy (tm)
16:23<TrueBrain>owh, and please, PLEASE, don't delete entries :)
16:23<frosch123>well, i came from the other direction
16:23<TrueBrain>mark them as deleted
16:23<frosch123>i wanted an ORM, and found sqlalchemy looking best
16:24<TrueBrain>owh, and a bit of GDRP for BaNaNaS wouldnt hurt btw
16:24<TrueBrain>what do we store why, and for how long
16:24<TrueBrain>and if a user wants his information removed (don't delete, anonymous), how to do that best
16:24<frosch123>yes, partly written
16:24<frosch123>also who can see and delete stuff
16:24<TrueBrain>nice :)
16:25<TrueBrain>design with security in mind :)
16:25<TrueBrain>or rather these days: design with privacy in mind :)
16:25<frosch123>well, writing cruds is boring, so i try to make interesting by trying by best :p
16:26<frosch123>got the plantuml working to auto-generate docs
16:26<frosch123>pretty ugly colors by default, but i guess i do not care :p
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16:28<TrueBrain>what is cool btw for BaNaNaS2, if you like, is make the webserver backend a solid API defined in something like Swagger
16:28<TrueBrain>so anyone can make a frontend for it
16:28<TrueBrain>and of course make a default HTML frontend, but allow others to make any kind of frontend
16:28<frosch123>i went for a 3-layer architecture
16:28<frosch123>layers 1 and 2 wouldn't know anything about web or html
16:29<TrueBrain>there are many ways to create a 3-layer system .. what layers do you consider the 3 :D
16:29<TrueBrain>(so many people have so many opinions about this ...)
16:29<frosch123>1 is the ORM. 2 does queries, modifications and permission checks. 3 does interfaces
16:30<TrueBrain>3 layer normally means (or classical): presentation (HTML), business layering (API-ish), and data layering (ORM shit)
16:30<frosch123>2 also contains the bundling and bananas-specific content repackaging
16:30<frosch123>yes, i mean the same 3 layers
16:30<TrueBrain>1 <-> 2 is over HTTP via, for example, JSON; 2 <-> 3 is normally internal calls via a well defined API
16:31<TrueBrain>data layer only knows about storing, but doesnt understand at all what the connections are
16:31<TrueBrain>business doesnt care how things are stored, just knows what to do in what order :P
16:31<TrueBrain>k k :)
16:31<frosch123>oh, i only have them internally in the packages, no external communication.
16:31<TrueBrain>(strictly seen the API is in a presentation layer to, above the business layer, but this is often an unneeded abstraction)
16:32<frosch123>but i want to content_server and possibly musad to be alternative level 3
16:32<TrueBrain>that is not really possible; content_server implements the datalayer and the business layer currencly :)
16:32<TrueBrain>as does musad
16:33<TrueBrain>musa does the presentation layer
16:33<TrueBrain>and does the OpenTTD client
16:33<frosch123>i don't want to use them 1:1, but rather implement similar apis
16:33<TrueBrain>ah, so the API facing the presentation layer, basically
16:33<TrueBrain>(API doesnt have to be an REST API , just to be clear; just any defined interface)
16:33-!-Gja [~Martin@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
16:34<frosch123>my content_server would be a compatbiility layer from current bananas protocol to bananas2 layer2
16:34<TrueBrain>Swagger really helped me define the API towards the web last time I did this btw
16:34<TrueBrain>so a proxy on top of the business layer
16:34<TrueBrain>good idea :)
16:34<TrueBrain>so you are not really doing the content_server and musad, but more a proxy layer for the OpenTTD client and musa?
16:35<TrueBrain>the protocol OpenTTD client speaks is very primitive, but that will be somewhat of a challange .. misses a bit of documentation ... "documented by code"
16:35<TrueBrain>but I am sure we can help out with that :)
16:36-!-sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@78.96.209.89] has quit []
16:36<TrueBrain>I am not sure writing a musa proxy is worth the effort .. but if we can, why not
16:36<frosch123>i have an old vm with a content server, i can figure it out by trial and error if nothing else helps :p
16:36<TrueBrain>you have the source
16:36<TrueBrain>might be easier :D
16:36<TrueBrain>well, the source is still on SVN, but you can access that :P
16:36<frosch123>and yes, not sure whether musa makes sense
16:37<frosch123>i want to add some "staging" state to bananas2
16:37<TrueBrain>if you want opinions on your design or reviews of code etc, just yell :P
16:37<TrueBrain>staging?
16:37<frosch123>which allows you to upload packages in parts, and only when you are done you can commit it to public
16:37<peter1138>bananas2, eh?
16:38<TrueBrain>yes; I would assume it would have that for sure :D
16:38<TrueBrain>everything-or-nothing sucks
16:38<TrueBrain>I would assumed "published" is just a state something is in
16:38<TrueBrain>others being "draft" or "archived" or "deleted/hidden"
16:39<TrueBrain>(by no accident, what you see also in things like email applications etc :D)
16:39<frosch123>pretty much the 4 states i have :p
16:39<TrueBrain>what might be nice, if you can "publish at this date"; but that is gold-plating, a nice-to-have
16:39<frosch123>but now... the world's most popular api tooling... should i really read that?
16:40<TrueBrain>many websites publish their API via it
16:40<TrueBrain>RAML is a good alternative
16:40<frosch123>the other day i tried to read the documentation of something written by fbook. it was all management-speak, and you had to dig very deep to find any information... source seemed to be undocumented
16:41<TrueBrain>https://editor.swagger.io/ and get rocking
16:42<TrueBrain>and remember: if you cannot define it in a tool like this, YOU are doing it wrong; not the tool :D
16:42<TrueBrain>(that is why I like these tools .. it keeps me from doing stupid shit)
16:42<frosch123>they are on freenode
16:42<TrueBrain>I once rewrote the OpenTTD website via RAML in API
16:42<TrueBrain>sadly, it meant it required Javascript .. which was a bridge to far for me :P
16:42<peter1138>Hmm, blank pagae.
16:42<peter1138>-a
16:43<TrueBrain>what is cool and silly about Swagger .. you can generate client and server code from it :P
16:43<frosch123>it needs to load some javascript libraries :)
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16:44<TrueBrain>but this only defines your interface between the presentation layer and the business layer
16:44<frosch123>then you get a page which is mostly black on the left, and mostly white on the right
16:44<frosch123>maybe you can get some 3d picture out of it
16:44<TrueBrain>in Python it is hard to define a good strict-separated interface between business and data
16:44<TrueBrain>euh .. if you load that page properly, there is an example in there
16:44<TrueBrain>a full API about pets
16:44<frosch123>yes, there is text on top of those colors :p
16:45<TrueBrain>do I want to know what kind of shitty browsers you use? :P
16:45<peter1138>One that has a plugin that distrusts javascript by default :p
16:45<frosch123>don't worry, it looks like it is supposed to, i just made fun of the design
16:45<TrueBrain>anyway, there are a few libraries that help you separate in Python .. but they are all shit. At work we wrote our own .. just to give an indication of shitty-ness
16:47<TrueBrain>and for BaNaNaS2, Python3.6 can be very valuable, if you hadnt notice
16:47<TrueBrain>co-routines can really help out
16:47<TrueBrain>especially as some jobs will take some time
16:47<TrueBrain>(and are I/O bound)
16:47<TrueBrain>just remember co-routines has nothing to do with multithreading if things are CPU-bound :D
16:48<TrueBrain>and in HTTP API design, possibly think about how you want to do long-polls. There are several solutions for that .. but there will be some time between someone posting their new file, and it being processed .. currently it keeps the HTTP connection open, which is the worst way of solving it :D
16:49<TrueBrain>common is to give a ticket back, which you can poll on another URL to get the status :)
16:49<TrueBrain>and just to throw a lot of possibilities your way: authorization and authentication, I have a lot of good experiences with JWT
16:49<TrueBrain>it can be used as the bearer token in the OAuth2 mechanism
16:50<TrueBrain>but if not a JWT, an API key would be really good :)
16:50<TrueBrain>(over keeping username/password)
16:50<frosch123>it will be some weeks until i hit that point :p
16:51<TrueBrain>just don't go over authentication and authorization too quick; a session cookie is very out-dated concept :D
16:52<frosch123>no worries, i have no experience with this :p i try to only look at new docs
16:54<peter1138>Yeah, API keys are good. Allows you to implement 2FA for the authentication side.
16:55<TrueBrain>allows you to trust apps without giving them all your keys :P
16:55<peter1138>Yeah. You can have a key with limited rights.
16:55<TrueBrain>I so hate when I download a 3rd party app which looks awesome ... and then asks for my username/password :(
16:55<TrueBrain>the limitation of the key is not my worry :)
16:56<TrueBrain>I just want to be able to revoke that one app when ever I feel like it .. and see a history page what he did ...
16:56<peter1138>Eh, I mean implementation side :p
16:56<TrueBrain>I rarely care that apps keep me logged in .. just as long as I can boot them on a minute notice :)
16:56<TrueBrain>but we will get there when we get there :)
16:56<TrueBrain>reminds me, we should revamp the Master Server too ..
16:57<TrueBrain>are there any new requirements for him?
16:58<TrueBrain>guess it should understand patchpacks a bit better .. in the version string is a bit childish
16:58<frosch123>TrueBrain: main requirement is being able to transmit more data
16:59<frosch123>currently we are limited to a single udp packet
16:59<TrueBrain>yup
16:59<frosch123>but people want to transmit a lot more, like more add-on information, all game settings, ...
16:59<TrueBrain>hard to overcome in the current classical setup
16:59<TrueBrain>do we mind if we add openssl to OpenTTD?
16:59<TrueBrain>(mainly for TLS connections)
16:59<frosch123>also, we definitely need to get rid of all the mysql-flavored sql functions
16:59<TrueBrain>(well, mainly for HTTPS)
17:00<TrueBrain>https is also related to BaNaNaS .. optiomal, I would like to switch openttd.org to https only
17:00<TrueBrain>currently we can't
17:00<TrueBrain>I see the same happening for download mirrors .. more and more want to be https only
17:01<frosch123>not sure whether central user authentication via master server is a good or bad feature
17:01<frosch123>but it was discussed before
17:01<TrueBrain>I am strongly considering publishing a proposal for that :P
17:01<frosch123>well, currently there are various competing competitive servers
17:02<TrueBrain>based on a draft from 2013 .. lol ...
17:02<frosch123>some of them seem to clearly not like each other
17:02<TrueBrain>but being able to add OpenSSL to OpenTTD is pretty important for that
17:02<TrueBrain>what I would suggest, is to have OpenTTD by default work with our AS (Authentication Server)
17:02<TrueBrain>but allow patchpacks to create their own
17:02<TrueBrain>link the MS to the AS
17:02<TrueBrain>and allow our website to list any MS we whitelist
17:03<TrueBrain>(possibly by them uploading their patchpack to BaNaNaS2)
17:04<frosch123>do you mean multiple AS, or multiple MS?
17:04<TrueBrain>both
17:04<frosch123>what's the point of multiple MS?
17:04<TrueBrain>bit tomato tomato honestly; we can always make it so we host those multiple MS
17:04<TrueBrain>it is just easier to code if there is a one-on-one relation between an AS and MS
17:04<TrueBrain>but those are details :)
17:04<TrueBrain>easier to make 1 from n, than n from 1 :)
17:05<TrueBrain>hell, we can even make it so we host alternatives ASes :)
17:05<TrueBrain>allow people to create their own "domain" so to say :P
17:05<TrueBrain>sky is the limit :D
17:05<TrueBrain>but, OpenSSL .. yay or nay? :)
17:05<frosch123>yay :)
17:06-!-supermop [~supermop@pool-71-167-52-194.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:06<TrueBrain>as wit https capabilities ... things get easier
17:06<TrueBrain>no custom protocols and shit :P
17:06<frosch123>also, should bananas2 have authentication domains? like "openttd ldap" and "github ldap" (do they use ldap"?
17:06<frosch123>or openid or whatever
17:06<TrueBrain>github has "apps" which use OAuth2
17:07<TrueBrain>and I do not know .. sounds like a good idea .. but somehow I am also tempted to say: lets move it to GitHub
17:07<frosch123>anyway, it feels weird to me that you need different accounts for bug tracker, wiki, bananas
17:07<TrueBrain>yes, exactly
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17:08<TrueBrain>so I would prefer if you at least support GitHub .. and for compatability having OpenTTD LDAP might be good
17:08<TrueBrain>so yeah, multiple domains :D
17:08<TrueBrain>github/TrueBrain vs OpenTTD/TrueBrain :D
17:09<TrueBrain>possibly allow people to link them to a single account :)
17:09<TrueBrain>guess we can do the same with wiki
17:09<frosch123>i allow multiple owners for projects
17:09<TrueBrain>yes; but that is not what I meant :D
17:09<frosch123>so both tbs can own a project and kick each other out
17:09<TrueBrain>I like what GitHub did .. I can add multiple email address to my account
17:09<TrueBrain>they all identify me
17:10<frosch123>yes, i think i have 3 :p
17:10<TrueBrain>so if you logon to BaNaNaS2 for the first time, it create an account .. would be nice if you can link other authentications to that same account
17:10<TrueBrain>(that also splits the "user" from the "authentication" part, which is very good :D)
17:10<frosch123>ok, one relation more :)
17:10<TrueBrain>and if that all works out, we can consider dropping our own SSO, for example :P
17:11<TrueBrain>but that ist down the road
17:11<TrueBrain>okay .. I will draft some AS/MS stuff soon-ish
17:11-!-FLHerne [~flh@cpc129772-papw8-2-0-cust286.know.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:11<TrueBrain>how I see it now, it will also be a Python app, and have many things in common with BaNaNaS2
17:12<TrueBrain>also solves the UDP issue etc
17:12<TrueBrain>streaming JSON! :D
17:12<TrueBrain>(yes, that is posible)
17:12<frosch123>yes, i would hope MS2 would just stream some JSON between any versions of ottd
17:13<TrueBrain>where did OpenTTD Server go to? :o
17:13<TrueBrain>lost connectivity with it ... :P
17:13<TrueBrain>website still works ...
17:13<TrueBrain>weird ..
17:13<TrueBrain>I hope it is not the Windows update I am running onit :D
17:13<frosch123>secure also works for me
17:14<TrueBrain>ah, my connection is back .. weeiirrrrdddd
17:14<TrueBrain>yeah .. and I think the same happens as with BaNaNaS2 .. MS2 will talk JSON, but has a proxy to talk the old protocol :P
17:15<TrueBrain>we just have to make sure it doesnt get too big
17:15<TrueBrain>I guess that also means we can add a rating system for servers or something
17:15<TrueBrain>similar to BaNaNaS2 ..
17:15<frosch123>are there schema definitions for json?
17:15<TrueBrain>so many similarities between the two :)
17:15<TrueBrain>there are ....... but you dont want to :)
17:15<TrueBrain>basically, define your API
17:15<TrueBrain>and only consider JSON a serialization method
17:16<TrueBrain>JSON is not part of the API, basically .. just a means to transmit the data
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17:16<TrueBrain>as JSON Schema is REALLY terrible :(
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17:16<frosch123>well, i wonder whether we get issues with people can transfer any data via master server
17:16<frosch123>or whether it should check the content beyond json syntax
17:16<TrueBrain>no, you can validate via the API definition just fine :)
17:17<TrueBrain>so basically you convert the JSON to an internal definition, which should match the API
17:17<TrueBrain>I personally like the Data Transfer Object pattern for it
17:17<frosch123>i mean stuff like: some ottd fork transmitting ladder/highscore information from server to client
17:17<frosch123>which regular ottd does not know about
17:17<TrueBrain>ah; so chunking
17:17<TrueBrain>I think they should be on different endpoints tbh
17:18<TrueBrain>and if a server supports an endpoint a client is not using, no problem
17:18<frosch123>but i am unsure whether that has any security implications
17:18<TrueBrain>if a server is not supporting one a client expets .. 404 :)
17:18<TrueBrain>if done right, there isnt any security issue :)
17:18<TrueBrain>but ladder/highscore is a good point
17:18<TrueBrain>as that can be per-server, but also AS-wide
17:19<TrueBrain>or MS-wide
17:19<TrueBrain>MS/AS wide? :)
17:19<TrueBrain>I would like to have something like GameScripts running on MS/AS .. a "challange" mode
17:19<TrueBrain>where you have to go through different "levels"
17:19<TrueBrain>dynamically spin-up servers locked for that user
17:19<frosch123>well, i won't work on competitive stuff, but i am fine if other can add stuff if they want to
17:19<TrueBrain>I have batshit crazy ideas :D
17:20<TrueBrain>any reason for that? Or just to draw the line somewhere?
17:20<TrueBrain>and like GameScript .. it can be used in tons of ways .. but it is meant to add a challenge :)
17:20<frosch123>i just have no interest to play ottd competitive,
17:20<TrueBrain>hmm ... would also allow MMO-like domains ...
17:21<TrueBrain>what I used to try, back in 2005, was to get .. I believe I called them "ports" in multiplayer
17:21<TrueBrain>what I really disliked about coop, that others could spend my money
17:21<TrueBrain>I just wanted to share their tracks
17:21<TrueBrain>so you could place ports, where trains could go over tracks of other players
17:21<frosch123>also, i considered exploring level-like scenarios, but did not come up with a single idea that i would like to play :p
17:21<TrueBrain>but you paid for that
17:21<frosch123>i guess i am more of a sandbox player
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17:22<TrueBrain>I like the cooperative competitor stuff :)
17:22<TrueBrain>like head-to-head ..together yet alone :)
17:22<TrueBrain>just my mistrust of others :D
17:22<peter1138>JSON savegame ? ;p
17:22<TrueBrain>go for it
17:22<frosch123>i have hopes that peters livery branch removes the demand for infra sharing :)
17:23<TrueBrain>I still hav eno clue what all that shit is
17:23<TrueBrain>I keep reading livery here, livery there
17:23<peter1138>frosch123, uh... very unlikely.
17:23<TrueBrain>yet nothing I can .. understand :P
17:23<peter1138>TrueBrain, s/livery/colours/
17:23<frosch123>from my point of view the "subsidiaries patch" in miniin was only about giving parts of the fleet different colors
17:23<andythenorth>TrueBrain: there are 16 colours, and they can be combined :P
17:23<TrueBrain>andythenorth / peter1138: not helping .. at all
17:23<frosch123>while the "different companies" aspecs what just pointless layers on top of it
17:23<andythenorth>oops I crashed it again
17:24<TrueBrain>frosch123: yup
17:24<TrueBrain>I never understood that patch
17:24<TrueBrain>(or why people wanted to play it)
17:24<TrueBrain>some form of segmentation, or something
17:24<peter1138>infra sharing is about co-op play but still running your own company
17:24<TrueBrain>infra sharing I fully understand .. but only in a multiplayer context
17:24<frosch123>just give each person their own vehicle group, done
17:25<TrueBrain>subsidiaries patch was that for single player ...
17:25<TrueBrain>frosch123: not that easy .. for example, I love to make big mainlines, and I hate to fiddle with passengers
17:25<TrueBrain>a friend of mine loves to fiddle with passengers, but hate mainlines
17:25<TrueBrain>so I like to ONLY share my mainline with him
17:25<TrueBrain>keep away from my coalmine line!
17:25<TrueBrain>that is shit I like :D
17:26<TrueBrain>but I still am not 1 bit closer to what the fuck liveries shit refers to
17:26<TrueBrain>reffffffers
17:26<frosch123>did any infra sharing patch ever open only parts of the network?
17:26<TrueBrain>fucking HTTP headers
17:26<TrueBrain>frosch123: mine did :) "ports"
17:26<TrueBrain>even had GUIs, "being late" penalties, etc
17:26<andythenorth>I tried infrasharing in JGR
17:27<andythenorth>it's totally weird, and really hard to use
17:27<TrueBrain>well, I wrote 3 versions in total, but ports was most natural
17:27<TrueBrain>places where 2 network touched
17:27<TrueBrain>just 2 big issues back then: PF was shit (no YAPF)
17:27<FLHerne>The problem with that version is the lack of control
17:27<TrueBrain>and some person was against multiplayer gameplay patches
17:28<TrueBrain>back in 2004 .. lol .. that was near impossible to get in
17:28<TrueBrain>gameplay was purely for single player
17:28<TrueBrain>but .... I have much bigger ideas .... connect multiple servers! :D
17:28<TrueBrain>"trade posts"!! :P
17:29<FLHerne>I do like IS - it's nice as a late-game sort of thing
17:29<frosch123>well, all people who posted on forums about connecting multiple servers, were douchebags :p
17:29<TrueBrain>pfew, I never posted it on the forums
17:29<TrueBrain>:P
17:29<TrueBrain>anyway, MS2/AS first .. guess we need a bit more input
17:30<FLHerne>"I've got my network serving <here>, you're serving <there>, why don't we add a connection <here> and run some through trains?"
17:30<frosch123>will you promise to never write sql functions?
17:30<FLHerne>Single-company MP is frustrating at the start of games, while you're still funding-limited
17:30<TrueBrain>I cannot. I can promise to never again write sql functions that end up in non-debug code :)
17:30<frosch123>fair :)
17:31<FLHerne>The other player(s) tend to hog stuff, so you end up with lots of half-built ideas and negative money without serious co-ordination
17:31<TrueBrain>once we had a dev who was going to redo the game balance itself
17:31<TrueBrain>too bad he never finished it
17:31<frosch123>that'
17:31<TrueBrain>I still miss those kind of changes
17:31<frosch123>that's pointless
17:31<FLHerne>Game balance itself?
17:31<TrueBrain>like ... why on earht does this coal mine keep selling me stuff for the same price .....
17:31<frosch123>ottd only has a single currency
17:31<FLHerne>Oh, like that
17:32<frosch123>and money always behave exponential, in all games
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17:32<TrueBrain>the idea was pretty much: a power station supplied by 3 companies will no longer pay so much for coal
17:32<TrueBrain>forcing people to be smart
17:32<andythenorth>there was a huge PDF
17:32<andythenorth>about it all
17:32<TrueBrain>he dia a lot of work for it
17:32<FLHerne>Hm
17:32<andythenorth>yada yada yada
17:32<TrueBrain>just ... never finished it
17:32<TrueBrain>as it goes
17:32<frosch123>that's why all grand strategy games have 6+ currencies
17:32<peter1138>Ooh, managed to crash it :D
17:32<TrueBrain>I never finished making my heighmap generator public :D
17:32<FLHerne>That sounds like it would just aggravate the existing thing where people just build as far as possible apart and try to never interact
17:33<peter1138>I never finished fixing landscape variety
17:33<frosch123>some of them are pretty much constant over the whoel game
17:33<TrueBrain>what I once tried to do, was allow different models to plug onto OpenTTD
17:33<andythenorth>NewEconomy
17:33<TrueBrain>as we can never settle on a model we all like/enjoy
17:33<FLHerne>(because there's rarely any benefit from competing, except in blatant ways like pinching output that are usually against server rules)
17:33<TrueBrain>even in single player I am annoyed that a coal mine->powerstation line can survive for my whole game
17:33<TrueBrain>in what world does that make sense
17:34<TrueBrain>and why do bigger cities not need more power stations?
17:34<frosch123>there were newgrf with depleting coal mines, i hated them :p
17:34<FLHerne>Electrical grid?
17:34<TrueBrain>yes .. depleting coal mines is not fixing the issue :)
17:34<TrueBrain>various of shit has been tried to fix it in several ways ..
17:35<frosch123>the thing i like about ottd is: after it set up something, it keeps running. i only need to bother about expanding, rarely about maintenane
17:35<TrueBrain>that is why I like Game Script .. at least allows to set goals (even per city)
17:35<TrueBrain>and it is what I dislike frosch123 :D
17:35<TrueBrain>but like I said, there is not 1 fits-all model :)
17:35<TrueBrain>the current balance was thought up in 1995 .. and it still stands, somewhat
17:36<TrueBrain>it was just never improved :)
17:36<TrueBrain>for example, what if you drop credits, and make wood, coal, etc your resources
17:36<frosch123>as said, i don't believe you cano improve balance as long as there is only "money" :)
17:36<TrueBrain>get iron to make trains, etc :P
17:36<TrueBrain>whole other genre
17:36<TrueBrain>but .. who cares! :D
17:36<frosch123>ever starcraft has two currencies: minerals and gas
17:36<TrueBrain>so why stuck with 1 frosch123? :D
17:37<TrueBrain>or maybe better: why can I not exceed 1? :)
17:37<TrueBrain>well, GameScripts can :)
17:37<TrueBrain>or GoalScripts :P
17:37<TrueBrain>somewhat
17:37<frosch123>people even whine about town authorities :p
17:37<TrueBrain>you need different modes
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17:37<TrueBrain>otherwise it is lost before it begon
17:37<frosch123>yes, more forks :)
17:38<TrueBrain>not sure if forks is the way to go .. but at least some way to change behaviour on that level
17:38<TrueBrain>we have NewGRFs which go a lot further than gfx
17:38<TrueBrain>GameScripts handle part of the joy
17:38<TrueBrain>not sure both combined cannot do everything .. but .. yeah ..
17:38<frosch123>i think cargodist vs. timetables vs. conditional orders pretty much shows the limits of a single ottd fork
17:39<TrueBrain>it needs some form of modularity
17:39<TrueBrain>I am not sure that forks is the solution
17:39<TrueBrain>we once tried GPMI .. which allowed it via libraries .. (got burned before it could be tried :P)
17:39<TrueBrain>GameScript is a niche market .. as is NewGRF
17:39<TrueBrain>people are afraid to try it ... hell, even I dont touch NewGRFs
17:40-!-synchris [~synchris@139.138.202.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:40<TrueBrain>so possibly you are right forks will :)
17:40<TrueBrain>just makes me wonder if we should make a more "core" like framework
17:40<TrueBrain>like the 2D engine, networking, save/load, ..
17:40<frosch123>i would love a new savegame format :p
17:40<TrueBrain>time will tell :)
17:40<TrueBrain>I just read that peter1138 is going to make JSON the new format
17:40<TrueBrain>I am sure he has a patch for that
17:40<peter1138>:p
17:41<peter1138>xml
17:41<peter1138>infact json as xml
17:41<TrueBrain>my current stack of jobs is: Windows Docker (or an attempt towards that), after that getting release back up (at least, a nightly)
17:41<TrueBrain>and make a draft for MS2/AS
17:41<TrueBrain>if there was anything else that needs to be done, lemme know btw :)
17:41<frosch123>if the savegame contains a json header which names the bit layout in the map array, we can remap the bits when loading, and get rid of all of the savegame conversion code
17:42<TrueBrain>not all, but a lot :)
17:42<frosch123>peter1138: what json format?
17:42<peter1138>https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SS9H2Y_7.1.0/com.ibm.dp.doc/json_jsonxconversionexample.html
17:43<peter1138> :p
17:43<TrueBrain>let me revoke your push rights ..
17:43<peter1138>It was a throw away comment, I have no plans for json
17:43<TrueBrain>bullshit :P
17:43<TrueBrain>you promised to do it now!
17:43<peter1138>haha
17:44<andythenorth>TrueBrain: liveries innit http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8977/horse_but_liveries_2.png
17:44<frosch123>oh, how about using XSLT for savegame conversion :p
17:44<andythenorth>I quit in cold rage
17:44<andythenorth>if you XSLT
17:44<TrueBrain>let me be clear about XSLT: FUCK OFF :P
17:44<andythenorth>we XSLT-ed an app while a dev was on long term leave
17:44<TrueBrain>andythenorth: yes, bunch of red trains (still no clue)
17:44<peter1138>XSLT of JSONx, yeah...
17:44<andythenorth>XSLT is devil
17:44<andythenorth>TrueBrain: see how the red and white make different shapes? o_O
17:45<TrueBrain>not really?
17:45<andythenorth>ok
17:45<TrueBrain>not sure what to look for :(
17:45<TrueBrain>(there is a reason I stay away from NewGRF :P)
17:45<andythenorth>just keep 1CC and 2CC same :)
17:45<TrueBrain>all I see that the numbers are poorly aligned versus the flag
17:45<TrueBrain>which annoys me
17:45<andythenorth>NOW I CAN NEVER UNSEE THAT :(
17:46<TrueBrain>and the numbers are 2 pixels too high
17:46<andythenorth>I will not sleep
17:46<TrueBrain>which is also annoying
17:46<TrueBrain>my OCD triggers on that heavily
17:46<andythenorth>mine too now
17:46<TrueBrain>1CC? 2CC?
17:46<andythenorth>company colors
17:46<andythenorth>colours
17:46<TrueBrain>I do like how organic the trains look
17:47<andythenorth>they're actually not organic at all
17:47<TrueBrain>owh, the doors of 47/48 are of a different colour
17:47<andythenorth>very regular patterns
17:47<andythenorth>but so are fractals :P
17:47<TrueBrain>I said they LOOK organic
17:47<andythenorth>anyway when I talk 'livery' I mean 3 things
17:47<frosch123>most trains look like they are from austria :p
17:47<TrueBrain>I never assumed they really were :P
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17:48<andythenorth>1) copying IRL trains, I should ignore this
17:48<frosch123>or lithuania
17:48<peter1138>right, sleepy time
17:48<andythenorth>2) choice of 2 liveries when player flips train in depot
17:48<andythenorth>3) choice of company colours
17:48<TrueBrain>I really do not know what the word livery means, it seems ... let me look it up
17:48<peter1138>for some reason i have a plan to meet up at the bottom of the hills at 9am tomorrow.
17:48<TrueBrain>a special uniform worn by a servant
17:48<andythenorth>colourway, branding, colour scheme etc
17:48<TrueBrain>hmmm
17:49<TrueBrain>ah, branding, yes, I know branding
17:49<peter1138>in this case it's just short for colour scheme.
17:49<TrueBrain>ah; that makes somewhat sense :)
17:49<TrueBrain>tnx :)
17:49<peter1138>and it's pointless faff tbh
17:49<TrueBrain>the dictonary strongly disagrees with livery meaning any of that :P
17:49<peter1138>not what andythenorth is doing, but the stuff in openttd
17:49<peter1138>which idiot put that in anyway
17:49*peter1138 sighs
17:50<andythenorth>it's "great"
17:50<andythenorth>like Frosites
17:50<andythenorth>Frosties *
17:50<TrueBrain>owh, there is the meaning of livery in the dictonary
17:50<TrueBrain>I hate that word now
17:50<TrueBrain>back to the pixel imperfection .. is that ingame, or because of NewGRFs?
17:51<peter1138>It's ingame.
17:51<andythenorth>oh yeah, the translation has also 'colour scheme' on the company window, and 'livery' on the colour scheme window :P
17:51<TrueBrain>wtf ... why nobody fix?
17:51<peter1138>Find an old version and see what it should be like ;)
17:51<TrueBrain>and who made it fugly like this?
17:51<TrueBrain>:(
17:51<peter1138>I only recently fixed some group icons, which had been broken for years.
17:51<TrueBrain>why nobody cares :(
17:51<peter1138>Well... the 2x ugly is... my fault? can't remember
17:52<TrueBrain>eye for perfection shows quality! :P
17:52<andythenorth>2x is best thing ever
17:52<TrueBrain>owh, I remember the initial 2x zoom patches
17:52<TrueBrain>those were fugly :D
17:52<TrueBrain>off by one issues on the borders ... so lovely :D
17:52<TrueBrain>and people YELLING why they werent accepted yet (the patches)
17:52<TrueBrain>good old times :D
17:52<TrueBrain>why are we all still here? Being yelled at is a bit the normal .... :P
17:53<TrueBrain>macohistic I guess .. how do you write that in english
17:53<peter1138>Damn, 0.4.5 doesn't compile ;(
17:53<TrueBrain>WUTH??!!?? lets fix that!
17:53<TrueBrain>Windows Update is at 33% with Working on updates
17:54<peter1138>1.0.0 doesn't either, hmm
17:54<peter1138>I guess I can't build an old version to compare ;P
17:54<TrueBrain>let me guess, you are trying to compile it with PowerShell? :P
17:54<peter1138>dos of course
17:54<TrueBrain>BeOS!
17:55<frosch123>oh, another thing....
17:55<TrueBrain>oh-oh
17:55<frosch123>i have checkouts of all of the version branches
17:55<TrueBrain>tnx btw andythenorth; really never knew the meaning of livery being vehicle colours :D
17:55<frosch123>with changes to make them compile again (with tons of warnings)
17:55<andythenorth>:)
17:55<TrueBrain>frosch123: go for it? :)
17:55-!-supermop [~supermop@pool-71-167-52-194.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:55<frosch123>i guess i'll push them to my own github
17:55<frosch123>not sure whether to pr them
17:56<TrueBrain>make PRs for it :)
17:56<TrueBrain>nostalgic reasons :)
17:56<peter1138>yapf/yapf_road.cpp:361:23: error: cannot convert 'bool' to 'Depot*' in return
17:56<peter1138>well...
17:56<TrueBrain>sounds horrible!
17:56<frosch123>TrueBrain: i use them for quickly checking when something was broken, like your alignment stuff
17:56<TrueBrain>its either a NULL, or invalid pointer :P
17:56<frosch123>TrueBrain: anyway, alignment is nearly impossible with custom fonts
17:56<TrueBrain>yeah .. I know ..
17:57<TrueBrain>you first need to preprocess the font to detect baseline
17:57<TrueBrain>as the baseline in the font is ALWAYS FUCKING WRONG
17:57<TrueBrain>(I so not miss my days as web developer)
17:57<andythenorth>also bed
17:57<TrueBrain>I used to do that ... calculate the correct baseline for a font, and adjust CSS based on it ... so horrible :P
17:57<TrueBrain>sleep well andythenorth
17:58<andythenorth>baseline tipped me over the edge :P
17:58<frosch123>:p
17:58<andythenorth>don't need to revisit the hours I've spent on that
17:58<TrueBrain>:D
17:58<andythenorth>at least visual diff helps
17:58<andythenorth>also bye
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17:59<Wolf01>He quits and I'm back
18:00<TrueBrain>conspirency if you ask me
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18:06<TrueBrain>right; night for me too :)
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18:16-!-supermop is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
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18:19-!-foul_owlfg is "kujrur" on #mm #spi #fsci #lowRISC #dfri_se #debian-live #debian-br #debconf18-taiwan #subgraph #debian-kbsd #Qubes_OS #plus #debian-apt #friendica #tor-offtopic #linux-rt #gcc #osm-fr #debian-in #osm-de #smuxi #qemu #bcache #osmbe #debian-games #kosagi #debian-js #otr #debian-science #zcash #debian-it #qubes #ooni #osm-es #techinc #powerdns #osm-dev #debian-ruby #debian-gnome #debian-derivatives #debian-boot #debian-reproducible #virt #ovirt #osm-ru #debian-lts
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18:22<TrueBrain>fun fact: disk usage went from 30 GiB to 55 GiB after installing 1 Windows update ... :(
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18:52<LordAro>TrueBrain: you can generally clean a lot of that up
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18:57-!-GT is "GT" on #openttd
18:59<GT>What is currently the best train AI, I did not follow the AIs for some time
19:01<+glx><TrueBrain> fun fact: disk usage went from 30 GiB to 55 GiB after installing 1 Windows update ... :( <-- that's because windows.old (it will go away by itself after some time)
19:19<Wolf01>'night too
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20:25-!-Eddi|zuHause is "Johannes E. Krause" on #openttd
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23:15-!-sim-al2 is "sim-al2" on #openttd @#/r/openttd
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---Logclosed Sun Apr 22 00:00:40 2018