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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-04-24

---Logopened Tue Apr 24 00:00:43 2018
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02:36<Pikka>yikes
02:41<peter1138>Yokes
02:42<Eddi|zuHause>... can't think of a pun to put here...
02:49<Pikka>something about eggs or oxen, probably
03:00<andythenorth>slopey train problems http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9005/horse_cheese.png
03:00<andythenorth>I like flat trains
03:01<Eddi|zuHause>it looks better than yesterday when the yellow front looked like it's sticking out
03:02<V453000>andythenorth: I actually like it a lot
03:02<andythenorth>I might steal the vectron from NARS 2 for one engine
03:02<andythenorth>I have to do 4 of these slopey things
03:02<andythenorth>and make them look different
03:02<Pikka>looks good :D sloped fronts in the _ views are one of the hardest things to draw imo
03:03<Pikka>and the subtler the slope the harder it is
03:06<andythenorth>did an electro diesel one too http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9006/horse_cheese_2.png
03:07<andythenorth>this is tricky shape for 1x http://www.vladanfoto.cz/files/class_88/class-88.001-16-04-29-velim-5384z.jpg
03:07<V453000>it doesn't have to be exact you know :P
03:07<andythenorth>no
03:07<andythenorth>I know :P
03:10*peter1138 ponders buying Locomotion on Steam.
03:10<Pikka>eww
03:10<peter1138>IKR
03:11<Eddi|zuHause>i think someone gave me a locomotion CD once
03:11<Eddi|zuHause>never touched it
03:11<peter1138>It has a very subdued palette.
03:12<peter1138>And misses useful stuff like working signals.
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03:12<peter1138>How do I make this window shrink automatically?
03:12<__ln__>it also has useful stuff that ottd doesn't
03:13<peter1138>Of course.
03:13<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty satisfied with the signals in TF
03:14<Eddi|zuHause>only thing about TF i actively dislike is that it disables achievements with mods
03:14<Eddi|zuHause>(there are of course minor annoyances all over the place)
03:14<Eddi|zuHause>(and it's still missing a planning mode)
03:28<andythenorth>bbbl
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03:42<peter1138>Anyone have a copy of the vehicle group icons without the overlays?
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03:50<Eddi|zuHause>not even a clue what icons you mean
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03:50<peter1138>Icons on the vehicle group UI.
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03:57<peter1138>Do you, andythenorth?
03:57<andythenorth>possibly
03:57<peter1138>Great!
03:58<andythenorth>or I have to cut them out
03:58<andythenorth>as icons go, they're not the best of the best
03:58<andythenorth>that yellow star, what is it?
03:59<peter1138>"new"
03:59<peter1138>But. Hmm.
04:00<andythenorth>Pikka: mines a P2
04:00<andythenorth>I'm not doing cheese steamers
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04:09<peter1138>ukrs3 looks nice
04:24<andythenorth>UKRSn+1
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04:38<Pikka>mmm, cheese
04:38<peter1138>Cheese please louise.
04:39<peter1138>andythenorth, I pushed an update (rebased so you need to drop local branch first)
04:39<peter1138>There's a "slight" issue with it :p
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04:50<andythenorth>did it gain shared vehicles commands? o_O
04:50<andythenorth>oh no they're in trunk too
04:50<andythenorth>nvm
04:50*andythenorth bbl
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07:16<LordAro>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6747 pretty sure this was justified
07:17<__ln__>an integrated web browser?
07:27<SpComb>then you could use asm.js to play openttd inside openttd?
07:27<SpComb>but probably for like NewGRF READMEs on bananas
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07:32<peter1138>When do we get NewMap?
07:34<__ln__>are you talking about the thing that was previously talked about in ~2005?
07:35<SpComb>I would like bendy 3D bridges
07:37<__ln__>i need underground tunnels
07:38<peter1138>Yeah.
07:39<__ln__>fair enough, regular tunnels are underground by definition. but i mean... below sea-level, and also stations in tunnels, and so on.
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07:51<SpComb>https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=839713878 https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=854664535
07:52<SpComb>openttd just isn't moddable enough :P
07:53<SpComb>wtf, the latter is even "This is an official mod from the Transport Fever developer team"
08:00<peter1138>Do I need to get myself Transport Fever next time it's on salae?
08:00<peter1138>And sale.
08:30<V453000>just go bike instead :P
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08:34<peter1138>Probably a good idea.
08:36<V453000>also I finally made my resizing python script work with drag&dropping pictures/folders onto it ... I haven't worked on the trains for months and I completely forgot what format of a command does it want to eat ... apparently rewriting it was the easiest solution :d
08:36<V453000>automation ._.
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09:54<andythenorth>o/
09:54<peter1138>Maybe I should get Skyrim VR.
09:55<@Alberth>o/
09:58<andythenorth>done up a Turtle
09:58<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9007/horse_turtle.png
09:58<andythenorth>fast pax diesel engine
09:58<andythenorth>which livery?
09:59<andythenorth>(the choices are just 1CC + 2CC or swapped)
10:00<andythenorth>"mainly 2cc" matches the coaches
10:00<andythenorth>"mainly 1cc" matches the other engines in this tech tree
10:04<peter1138>Well...
10:04<peter1138>All of them :p
10:05<andythenorth>group livery UI only allows one color choice right?
10:05<andythenorth>no split engines / arbitrary wagons
10:05<andythenorth>or power types and stuff
10:06<peter1138>Yeah, just one per group.
10:07<peter1138>I did mention it could possibly have the whole normal thing per group, but that would be overkill and silly.
10:07<peter1138>But now you mention it, someone will complain ;p
10:08<andythenorth>the normal thing per group is fine
10:08<peter1138>And that would require my UI to be completely changed again.
10:08<andythenorth>it's just that the implementation is weird :)
10:09<peter1138>g->livery[LS_END]? o_O
10:09<andythenorth>I'd have to look that up :P
10:15<peter1138>Might as well have individually assignable colours per vehicle ;p
10:15<andythenorth>hurgh :P
10:15<andythenorth>well
10:15<peter1138>Hmm, though having the whole set of liveries per group wouldn't make sense.
10:15<peter1138>As groups have vehicle types.
10:16<andythenorth>yeah, some options would be meaningless
10:16<peter1138>Although it would be the easier way to implement it.
10:16<andythenorth>it's potato / potato to me
10:16<andythenorth>whatever's simplest to implement
10:17<andythenorth>one livery is fine
10:17<andythenorth>the current set of liveries is silly, but kind of useful
10:17<peter1138>Actually the UI changes would be simpler ;?
10:17<peter1138>:/
10:17<andythenorth>hmm do I have the right branch from your fork?
10:17<andythenorth>group-livery
10:18<FLHerne>Anyone review a 1-line NML patch? :P http://www.flherne.uk/files/nml.diff
10:18<FLHerne>Boolean conversions only occur with logical ops, where they're generated implicitly
10:19<andythenorth>I reviewed it and discovered I don't understand it :)
10:19<andythenorth>I can't commit that :)
10:19<andythenorth>maybe Alberth
10:19<FLHerne>The current code turns !foo into !!!(foo) which turns into !!!(!!(foo)) etc
10:20<FLHerne>So the end result is that running nmlc --nml=... in a loop results in an infinitely large file consisting mostly of !!() :P
10:21<peter1138>andythenorth, yeah, if you scrapped it and repulled.
10:21<peter1138>(i rebased)
10:21<andythenorth>I trashed the repo and recloned
10:21<peter1138>kk
10:21<peter1138>there's no button in the group window any more
10:21<peter1138>it's all in company colours
10:21<andythenorth>wow
10:21<peter1138>mainly cos i didn't want to have to design an icon :p
10:21<peter1138>and it's broken
10:21<peter1138>but not massively
10:23<andythenorth>if I drew an icon, button on group window could open that livery window, focussed on correct grop
10:23<andythenorth>group *
10:23<peter1138>Could do.
10:24<andythenorth>wow
10:24<andythenorth>how much wrong in one post? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1205831#p1205831
10:24<andythenorth>C++ is outdated and slow
10:24<andythenorth>newgrf is the cause of all the performance issues in the game
10:25<andythenorth>changing language makes specs unnecessary
10:25<LordAro>i'm curious what he thinks would be a better language
10:26<andythenorth>I'm curious about how much wrong can be in one post
10:26<andythenorth>I mean there are people who have obvious mental health issues who can top that easily
10:26<andythenorth>but that's high up the list for recent years
10:26<andythenorth>oops I should be elsewhere
10:26<andythenorth>BIAB
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10:28<peter1138>I don't even think NewGRF is particularly slow. Just that particular case.
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10:45<@Alberth>just a bit inconvenient interface
10:45<@Alberth>but there are more such points in the spec
10:46<@Alberth>FLHerne: that patch won't fly, boolean should get limited to 0 or 1, which happens with !!
10:47<FLHerne>Alberth: Yes, but the parser inserts those implicitly when parsing logical ops
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10:48<FLHerne>!!(foo) appearing in the source still gets parsed and saved fine
10:48<@Alberth>I am not sure it's a problem, there is code for simplifying expressions too
10:49<FLHerne>Alberth: Without this patch, we read !!(foo) and write it as !!!(!!!(foo))
10:49<@Alberth>what if you don't have a logical op? eg use it as integer index, for example
10:50<FLHerne>The same happens
10:50<@Alberth>without !! as you propose
10:50<FLHerne>'Boolean' doesn't have any rule directly in the parser
10:51<FLHerne>!! is always parsed as LogicalNot
10:51<@Alberth>integers are also booleans, like in C
10:51<FLHerne>Yes, I know
10:51<@Alberth>0 is false, anything else is true
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10:51<@Alberth>but that breaks if you use a boolean in an integer context
10:52<@Alberth>as it must be 0 or 1 then
10:52<FLHerne>Yes, but that's also implicit...
10:52<FLHerne>Hm, I need to re-explain
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10:54<FLHerne>To the parser, !value means LogicalNot(Boolean(value))
10:54<@Alberth>if you can detect the child expression to be a boolean with those limits in place already, it could work
10:54<@Alberth>yes
10:54<FLHerne>!!value is just that, nested
10:54<@Alberth>and !! means (x) ? 1 : 0
10:54<@Alberth>which is not the same as x
10:55<@Alberth>namely for all values x other than 0 and 1
10:55<FLHerne>Yes, but it doesn't mean that as a different symbol
10:55<peter1138>x != 0
10:55<@Alberth>(((..(x != 0) != 0) != 0) ... )
10:56<FLHerne>If you actually write !!foo in the source, it's parsed as LogicalNot(Boolean(LogicalNot(Boolean(<foo>))))
10:56<@Alberth>yes
10:56<FLHerne>The conversion is implied by the existence of !
10:57<FLHerne>So when writing out the AST, adding /extra/ !!()s for the conversions is never necessary
10:57<peter1138>So, er... what patch are you talking about?
10:57<FLHerne>(fwiw, this is also true for the other operators that cause int->bool conversions
10:57<FLHerne>)
10:57<@Alberth>for the second time, it's not, for the first time, when your child is "<foo>", it is
10:58<FLHerne>Alberth: I think you're confused about what the change changes :P
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10:58<@Alberth>that's quite possible :)
10:59<FLHerne>It doesn't stop the parser creating Boolean nodes in the AST, it just stops them being written out
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11:00<FLHerne>Because they're /always/ implicit
11:00<@Alberth>if a boolean mode is "2", then writing out "2" and "!!2" is not the same, so where is the !! added for the child then?
11:01<@Alberth>mode=node
11:01<FLHerne>An 'explicit' boolean conversion is parsed as a pair of logicalnots, which then implicitly get the Boolean nodes added
11:01<FLHerne>Alberth: By the logicalnots
11:01<@Alberth>ah, ok
11:01<FLHerne>peter1138: It's http://www.flherne.uk/files/nml.diff
11:02<@Alberth>so an "assert isinstance(expr, LogicalNot)" would hold?
11:03<FLHerne>No, implicit bool conversions also get generated for the other logical ops
11:03<@Alberth>ok, add the other logical operators too :)
11:04<@Alberth>assert(expr, (LogicalNot, LogicalAnd, LogicalOr))
11:04<@Alberth>+isinstance
11:04<peter1138>Ah, nml. 'Nother Magic Language
11:04<FLHerne>Alberth: No, it's the other way round
11:04<@Alberth>for me, NewGRF is the magic language :)
11:05<FLHerne>Alberth: The /children/ of logicalops get Boolean conversion nodes, because that makes sense :P
11:05<FLHerne>Really, I think it's a code-gen hack rather than a proper syntax tree
11:05<FLHerne>Well, no
11:05<FLHerne>It makes sense
11:06<@Alberth>well, not sure, a logicalop could handle arbitrary integer values as input, unlike anything surrounding a logical expression which is not aware of it being a boolean
11:07<FLHerne>Anyway, my reasoning is:
11:07<FLHerne> - There is no Boolean symbol in the tokenizer/parser
11:07<@Alberth>sounds likely
11:08<FLHerne> - Therefore all Booleans appearing in the AST must have been implicitly created while parsing other nodes
11:09<FLHerne> - Therefore the parent node must imply the existence of the conversion
11:09<@Alberth>code is also created at a later stage, while simplifying an expression, or rewriting to a form that you can actually implement
11:09<FLHerne> - Therefore we don't need to write out extra syntax for the conversion, because we know it's there
11:10<FLHerne>That's a point, I need to check if that can happen
11:11<andythenorth>V453000: http://www.railwaygazette.com/uploads/pics/tn_ru-tem19-gas-loco-tmh.jpg
11:12<V453000>wotwot
11:13<peter1138>Alberth, I don't think anyone's called NewGRF a language before ;)
11:14<andythenorth>I wanted to make a new thread for that discussion
11:14<andythenorth>it's a bit unfair on JGR
11:14<peter1138>:)
11:14<andythenorth>pisses me off when threads about my stuff take a 2 or 3 page diversion into blah blha blah
11:15<FLHerne>Alberth: Hrm, I think you're right :-/
11:16<andythenorth>such train https://www.railcolor.net/imgs/content/model_vossloh_dm30_2.jpg
11:16<FLHerne>It does look possible that the other nodes could get reduced away, although I haven't actually been able to make an example
11:16<@Alberth>expression rewriting in nml is horrible :p
11:16<andythenorth>nml is horrible :)
11:17<andythenorth>we should replace it
11:17<andythenorth>with something fast
11:17<andythenorth>maybe bytecode?
11:17<peter1138>Squirrel.
11:17<peter1138>Wait wait.
11:17<peter1138>ini files
11:17<peter1138>And an undo knob.
11:17<@Alberth>I once tried to avoid rewriting expressions that have been rewritten already, but even deciding an expression node is not modified anywhere is already too complicated to decide, I found
11:17<andythenorth>peter1138: an MP undo knob
11:17<@Alberth>yaml is much nicer
11:18<andythenorth>and a redo knob
11:18<FLHerne>Bleh, and there's no sane way to look at the parent node to make sure it implies the conversion...
11:18<@Alberth>andy: undo the undo :p
11:18<peter1138>I'm not sure I've ever looked at nml code properly.
11:18<peter1138>I don't know the structure of it.
11:18<andythenorth>"no need"
11:18<FLHerne>Oh, I can see a way to fix that, but it'll be horrible :P
11:19<andythenorth>the action 0 and action 2 map in nml
11:19<andythenorth>the action 3 is hidden away
11:19<andythenorth>action 1 kind of maps
11:19<andythenorth>there's a lot of magic, what has been done is quite an achivement
11:19<@Alberth>the problem of newgrf are this riddles in action X sentences
11:20<@Alberth>no way to understand them
11:20<peter1138>varaction nonsense too
11:20<andythenorth>I have a whole saved transcript "the trouble with nml"
11:20<andythenorth>but apart from being terrible at bytecode, nfo never troubled me
11:20<andythenorth>and I am not a programmer
11:20<peter1138>The concept of having to ask what sprite to draw everything time is flawed, imho.
11:20<peter1138>-thing
11:21<andythenorth>is there really no caching?
11:21<andythenorth>does it run the chain every time the graphics are drawn?
11:21<@Alberth>cache implies you know the decision ahead
11:21<andythenorth>but mostly the decision doesn't need to be made
11:21<@Alberth>but it's arbitrary decision code
11:21<peter1138>andythenorth, yes, becuase, you know, something might have changed.
11:22<andythenorth>yes, the prototype might be blue on Tuesdays in 1931
11:22<peter1138>like those animated steamers.
11:22<andythenorth>and it might be Tuesday
11:22<peter1138>where the newgrf decides which frame to draw every time
11:22<andythenorth>animation is the valid special case
11:22<peter1138>even that doesn't need to ask every time, if it's well designed
11:22<andythenorth>but there are other ways to do animation
11:22<andythenorth>animation can have defined frames
11:22<peter1138>(supply a list of frames at the start)
11:22<peter1138>quite
11:23<andythenorth>exactly
11:23<andythenorth>just cycle them
11:23<FLHerne>Would it be possible to scan the callback beforehand, to see which variables it depends on?
11:23<andythenorth>like a walk cycle loop
11:23<peter1138>I'm not sure but I think varaction processing is probably quicker in ttdpatch too.
11:23<FLHerne>(and then only run ones where the deps could plausibly have changed)
11:23<andythenorth>do we even know that newgrf is slow?
11:23<peter1138>Far less support code around it.
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11:23<peter1138>It's not the slowest thing.
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11:24<@Alberth>without assuming values, you're looking at branching into every "if", which explodes quite fast to much of the newgrf, probably
11:24<peter1138>Retrying industry placement may be slow but that's not inherently newgrf's fault.
11:25<@Alberth>bigger points of pain is vehicle replacement, imho
11:25<peter1138>Do we get the sprite for every vehicle, or just the visible ones?
11:25<@Alberth>industries are not created often enough
11:25<andythenorth>industry placement is faster if one doesn't ECS
11:25<andythenorth>maybe it shouldn't be George's responsibility
11:26<andythenorth>but it is, and he's made it slow
11:26<@Alberth>no idea, my guess is just what needs to be drawn
11:26<peter1138>I don't ECS :D
11:26<andythenorth>ECS is slow to place industries because the rules are far too fine-grained
11:26<andythenorth>arguably the mod framework should defend authors against that
11:26<andythenorth>but then it would have to be very restricted in scope
11:26<peter1138>Alberth, I have a suspicion it uses the dimenions of the sprite to fill a hash to determine what is on-screen.
11:26<andythenorth>if authors want control, then they have to be responsible
11:26<peter1138>Not looked for ages though.
11:27<andythenorth>there are lots and lots of shit minecraft mods that will cause lag or crashes
11:27<peter1138>I remember writing a patch that would cache the max possible size for a vehicle and always use that.
11:27<peter1138>But, you know, patches...
11:27<andythenorth>now they can be unfinished branches ;)
11:27<peter1138>Yes ;)
11:27<andythenorth>or stash :P
11:27<andythenorth>put em in gist :P
11:27*andythenorth must to go elsewhere again
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11:28<peter1138>I've had minecraft packs that just flat out refused to load because 8GB wasn't enough RAM.
11:29<LordAro>minecraft isn't exactly known for its efficient resource usage
11:29<Sacro>I find 10-12 is enough for modpacks
11:31<peter1138>I have 32GB now so that should be enough.
11:36<FLHerne>Alberth: Any idea if nmlop.AND not having returns_boolean is an omission or means something?
11:36<FLHerne>(OR ditto)
11:37<FLHerne>Oh
11:37<FLHerne>Wrong one?
11:38<FLHerne>Ah, no, I see
11:38<FLHerne>That's clever :P
11:39<FLHerne>( | and || are actually the same operator, and converting the args to bool in the latter case makes it behave in the logical way)
11:40<@Alberth>it has been a few years I last looked at that code :)
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12:21<peter1138>Yay Simutrans.
12:21<peter1138>I clicked on the "Net work" icon and the whole thing froze.
12:29<Pikka>o/
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12:31<peter1138>Apparently my company has a colour, but I've not seen it anywhere :p
12:34<FLHerne>Alberth: Less of a big-hammer approach: http://www.flherne.uk/files/nml2.diff
12:35<FLHerne>(also makes logical ORs and ANDs more readable even without bool conversions)
12:37<FLHerne>I spent a while trying to add a `to_string_func` to Operator, but that doesn't work because Operator.to_string takes /strings/ for the exprs so can't tell whether it's a logical op
12:37<FLHerne>(and it wouldn't be straightforward to change that)
12:38<@Alberth>I don't have the code in my head, so can't quite comment on that :)
12:39<@Alberth>I guess "is_boolean" is different from isinstance(expr, Boolean) ?
12:39<@Alberth>oh the former is also defined on operators of course
12:43<@Alberth>your 'not' code is the same as unpack, move the function to a more global level, and reuse?
12:46<FLHerne>Probably a good idea
12:47<FLHerne>I'm not really familiar with nml structure, any suggestions?
12:48<FLHerne>Perhaps I should just make it a staticmethod of Boolean
12:48<@Alberth>I was pondering why both classes are not in the same file :p
12:48<FLHerne>binary vs unary ops, I think
12:49<@Alberth>ah, makes somewhat sense, I guess
12:49<FLHerne>Well, I don't know why anyone cared
12:49<@Alberth>y3xo did, no doubt
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13:02<Wolf01>Moin
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13:02<Wolf01>Wow, for the first time I made 249M points on pinball
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13:03<LordAro>Wolf01: nice
13:03<LordAro>i don't think i ever got more than 10M
13:04<Wolf01>It took me half of the lunch break and some time now, continuous multiballs, I had 5 balls for the entire game
13:04<Wolf01>(after losing 2 of the 3 balls at the beginning)
13:04<@Alberth>o/
13:07<frosch123>evenink
13:07<peter1138>isn't it
13:08<LordAro>Wolf01: how are you playing? I hope you don't have an XP machine still...
13:09<peter1138>How do I force a window to shrink? :S
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i've even thought of the existence of pinball over the last ~12 years
13:11<frosch123>peter1138: ReInit()
13:11<Wolf01>LordAro: on the phone
13:13<peter1138>Hmm, that is being called.
13:15<FLHerne>Alberth: Bleh, writing concise docstrings is hard http://www.flherne.uk/files/nml3.diff
13:15<Wolf01>peter1138: I'm going to retry abusing the UnpackIfValid to extract the RoadType from RoadTypes... or you say is it better to pass the RoadType on the function call?
13:15<peter1138>Don't abuse it, that's why it doesn't work :S
13:16<FLHerne>Hm, I should add a comment to binop too
13:16<FLHerne>nml doesn't have enough, but that's not an excuse not to add them :P
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13:16<Wolf01>Ok, then I'll remove that, pass directly the RoadType on the function call, and reimplement UnpackIfValid when we'll add subtypes
13:17<Wolf01>But this mean double change on the same spot
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13:18<Wolf01>Or, I'll use rtid::Pack() on the function call too, which does nothing else than passing a RoadType in the current state
13:19<Wolf01>So I don't have to change the function calls later
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13:20<Wolf01>I'll rearrange the p2 bits too
13:21<Wolf01>What do you think?
13:25<FLHerne>Alberth: http://www.flherne.uk/files/nml4.diff with added comment
13:26<@Alberth>bonus points! :)
13:27<andythenorth>Pikka: is it not bedtime in BNE? :P
13:27<FLHerne>Alberth: Are you ok to review/commit it, or do I have to nag someone else? ;P
13:27<Pikka>hard to tell really :)
13:27<andythenorth>what colour is outside?
13:27<andythenorth>dark or light?
13:28<Wolf01>Half way
13:28<andythenorth>and should I? https://www.railcolor.net/imgs/content/model_vossloh_dm30_3.jpg
13:29<@Alberth>FLHerne: frosch123 may want to have check as well, I am not that well acquainted with nml code any more
13:29<@Alberth>I'll have to check what the is_bool function is doing at least :)
13:30<andythenorth>FLHerne: also, how did you discover this issue? o_O
13:30<@Alberth>read output is my guess :p
13:31<FLHerne>andythenorth: Well, I was loading and saving my file, and each time it got bigger and uglier :-(
13:31<FLHerne>(with this one, it just gets ugly once and then stays unchanged with the round-trip)
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13:31<andythenorth>peter1138: so liveries look done eh :P
13:31<andythenorth>can't ship without bugs, it's bad luck
13:33<FLHerne>Oh, the docstring's wrong, it should have even more !!!s http://www.flherne.uk/files/nml5.diff
13:33<FLHerne>(not that anyone would care)
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13:36<FLHerne>andythenorth: n round-trips lead to 3^n exclamation marks, so exponentiation being what it is it becomes noticeable quite fast
13:44<@Alberth>don't recompile an nml file to itself :p
13:44<@Alberth>the entire is_boolean looks quite hacky
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13:48<frosch123>when is this stuff even used? in error messages?
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13:53<andythenorth>so
13:53<andythenorth>futurising sets is boring
13:53<andythenorth>pikka is right :P
13:53<Pikka>oops
13:53<andythenorth>I need to replace the 37 in 2020
13:53<andythenorth>but reality doesn't help
13:54<andythenorth>no time machine :P
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>i'd vote for a little bit of future, but too future-y will probably fail
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13:54<andythenorth>I was going to use this https://www.railjournal.com/media/k2/items/cache/9fb6ed564448145aec0fb63a40dd5881_XL.jpg?t=1460752527
13:54<andythenorth>but it works better for the fast pax diesel in the tech tree for 2020
13:54<andythenorth>so now I have nothing to draw :P
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>make it a universal diesel?
13:55<andythenorth>tech tree says no
13:55<andythenorth>I could just have similar sprites
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>make an identical one with different stats?
13:55<andythenorth>the stats are already sorted :)
13:55<andythenorth>and tested :)
13:56<andythenorth>I did draw this http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9008/2020_horse.png
13:56<andythenorth>but then I stole it for the Turtle
13:57<V453000>2100+ or riot
13:57<Pikka>that's a lot of locos
13:57<andythenorth>everything is cheese by 2020
13:57<andythenorth>maybe this? https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/M2289_1.JPG
13:57<andythenorth>it's not Brit
13:58<V453000>Pikka may have skewed his perception of "a lot of locos" :P
13:58<andythenorth>or https://www.railjournal.com/media/k2/items/cache/77c4fe2a7e317c1ca762236f81946bfb_XL.jpg?t=943938000
13:58<V453000>but yeah, minimizing iz
13:58<andythenorth>V453000 pikka has same number as me
13:58<andythenorth>he just hides them in A, B and C :)
13:58<V453000>:D
13:58<Pikka>I don't have as many electro-diesels ;)
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to "10 locos should be enough for anyone"?
13:59<Pikka>I didn't say that, I said 10 locos should make a playable set
13:59<Pikka>once you have a playable set, you can start making it more fun :P
14:00<andythenorth>Pikka: how many do you have now? o_O
14:00<andythenorth>32?
14:01<Pikka>something like that
14:01<andythenorth>I'm at 35 now
14:01<andythenorth>@calc 2020-1860
14:01<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 160
14:02<andythenorth>@calc 160/35
14:02<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 4.57142857143
14:02<ZehMatt>@calc 1/0
14:02<@DorpsGek>ZehMatt: Error: float division by zero
14:02<ZehMatt>@calc 1/-0
14:02<@DorpsGek>ZehMatt: Error: float division by zero
14:02<andythenorth>had to be tried eh
14:02<ZehMatt>:)
14:02<andythenorth>stop bullying the bot
14:02<ZehMatt>u'll never know when you find the first singularity
14:03<andythenorth>there's always a chance
14:06<ZehMatt>@calc sqrt(1)
14:06<@DorpsGek>ZehMatt: 1
14:07<ZehMatt>@calc sin(0.5)*cos(0.2)
14:07<@DorpsGek>ZehMatt: 0.46986894695
14:07<ZehMatt>amazing
14:07<ZehMatt>what is it running
14:08<LordAro>supybot
14:08<LordAro>(php)
14:08<ZehMatt>@calc null+1
14:08<@DorpsGek>ZehMatt: Error: 'null' is not a defined function.
14:08<ZehMatt>@calc NULL+1
14:08<@DorpsGek>ZehMatt: Error: 'null' is not a defined function.
14:08<ZehMatt>;(
14:09<LordAro>come on, you can do better than that
14:09-!-Wacko1976 [~IceChat9@027-161-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:09<LordAro>@calc 1<< 2
14:09<@DorpsGek>LordAro: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
14:09<ZehMatt>@calc echo(1)
14:09<@DorpsGek>ZehMatt: Error: 'echo' is not a defined function.
14:09<LordAro>@calc 1 << 2
14:09<@DorpsGek>LordAro: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
14:09<LordAro>anyway
14:09<ZehMatt>oh since you are here
14:10<peter1138>So
14:10<ZehMatt>I've addressed the last review of yours
14:10<ZehMatt>its ready from my end
14:11<ZehMatt>moving a window on 120hz at 30hz is slightly akward to watch :p
14:12<andythenorth>Pikka: shall I just refurb the 37 again? And not electro it? :P
14:12<andythenorth>it's pretty close to IRL
14:12<andythenorth>there are no replacements for 37s because they keep repairing them
14:12<Pikka>I guess so
14:13<andythenorth>saves drawing eh
14:13<Pikka>I thought the 37s were all gone, I guess not :P
14:14<andythenorth>seems there are about 40 or so left with leasing companies
14:15<peter1138>ZehMatt, on my system I get horrible glitching as there's no vsync going on :S
14:15<peter1138>(With your patch)
14:16<ZehMatt>hm
14:16<peter1138>I haven't tried the split-up version.
14:16<ZehMatt>fullscreen, windowed?
14:16<peter1138>It's there in master anyway, just less noticable as there is settle-time between frames.
14:16<peter1138>Windowed, I'm not a monster.
14:17<LordAro>unconvinced
14:17<ZehMatt>i wonder how thats even possible
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14:17<ZehMatt>are you using sdl
14:17<peter1138>BTW you didn't update the allegro driver again, it doesn't call DrawWindows()
14:17<peter1138>No, I'm on Windows.
14:17<ZehMatt>i cant get it go tear
14:17<peter1138>It's not tearing.
14:18<peter1138>Hmm, wonder if I can capture it. Unfortunately as it's GDI OBS isn't much cop.
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14:18<peter1138>I made my copy update the whole screen at once and it's silky smooth, of course./
14:19<ZehMatt>i keep missing those files because they are not with the VS project :D
14:19<ZehMatt>one way could be to add them but exclude them from compilation
14:22<peter1138>https://www.twitch.tv/peter1138 < live streaming it :p
14:22<andythenorth>how modern
14:22<andythenorth>so smooth :P
14:22<ZehMatt>resolving host..
14:22<ZehMatt>so the mouse cursor
14:23<peter1138>mouse cursor disappears, and windows get chopped up
14:24<ZehMatt>the mouse cursor thing is visible on my end except the window chopping
14:24<peter1138>scrolling the map is fine
14:24<peter1138>it's visible, check the scroll bar on the depot window
14:24<ZehMatt>hm
14:25<peter1138>as i move it right
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14:25<peter1138>it disappears because the window has overwritten it, and it hasn't redrawn the scrollbar yet
14:25<peter1138>something is not right but afaik it's all magic within BitBlt()
14:25<peter1138>The surface knows what is meant be updated, and BitBlt should just magically do it.
14:26<ZehMatt>weird
14:26<peter1138>lol one change and it rebuilds it all
14:26<ZehMatt>some of it doesnt happen on my end
14:27<ZehMatt>so far only the mouse cursor so far is can reproduced here
14:27<peter1138>anyway, this happens in master for me as well
14:27<ZehMatt>welp
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14:27<peter1138>just your patch makes it more obvious
14:27<ZehMatt>i see
14:27<peter1138>With that small change I made that marks it all dirty
14:27<peter1138>it's lovely, silky smooth
14:27<ZehMatt>cool
14:28<ZehMatt>perhaps add it to my PR?
14:28<peter1138>no
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>that kinda defeats the whole point?
14:28<ZehMatt>what exactly did you change
14:28<peter1138>marking the whole screen dirty every change is definitely wrong :)
14:28<ZehMatt>oh nvm
14:28<peter1138>It's like GDI is doing the BitBlt in stages :S
14:29<peter1138>gonna try full screen
14:29<peter1138>doubt it changes anything :)
14:29<ZehMatt>ok so whats the suggestion
14:29<peter1138>I have none. It's not really about your PR as it happens in master.
14:29<peter1138>Just bugs me and I don't know how to fix it.
14:30<ZehMatt>i can actually look into that afterwards if you want me to
14:30<peter1138>I don't know what's odd about my system that other people don't have it.
14:30<peter1138>Still bad on fullscreen.
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14:32<peter1138>I suspect something changed in Windows over the years, everything being composited now.
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>so report the bug to windows?
14:33<peter1138>:p
14:33<ZehMatt>well report what exactly
14:34<ZehMatt>the issue needs to be isolated first
14:34<peter1138>That would be "LOL WHAT YOU USE GDI!?"
14:34<peter1138>Use DirectX12 kthx bye
14:34<peter1138>etc etc
14:34<ZehMatt>well speaking of, OpenRCT2 has OpenGL rendering, how would you feel about having that in OpenTTD
14:34<peter1138>So yeah, maybe we need to switch to DX9 so we can just flip.
14:35<peter1138>OpenGL is fine, someone already had a partial patch to implement it.
14:35<peter1138>And I don't mean my ancient patch that was terrible.
14:35<ZehMatt>i wonder if that was Overv again
14:35<peter1138>It was one of the other devs.
14:35<ZehMatt>he started it on orct2 and me and few others picked up lately
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14:35<peter1138>Can't remember who. Maybe michi_cc.
14:35<ZehMatt>ah
14:35<ZehMatt>maybe if i'll find some spare time ill have a look
14:36<peter1138>All it needs is an OpenGL pixel buffer as a surface, and then swap that about.
14:36<peter1138>My ancient patch actually used direct opengl calls to render individual sprites. terrible.
14:36<ZehMatt>we are batching everything
14:36<ZehMatt>it works quite well
14:36<ZehMatt>and interpolation adds some butter to it :p
14:37<peter1138>There's no much to batch if it's just a surface.
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14:37<peter1138>Although you could then do nice stuff like making windows be a different surface
14:37<ZehMatt>you are probably talking rendering to textures
14:38<peter1138>Yes, I'm talking about not changing the game core so much.
14:38<ZehMatt>yea i get that
14:38<peter1138>The game already handles only updating bits it needs to.
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14:40<ZehMatt>damnit whitespaces
14:40<peter1138>:D
14:41<ZehMatt>notepad++ loves messing with me
14:42<peter1138>Palette animation also becomes cheaper, with the right scheme.
14:43<peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/o/dump/opengl18.diff
14:43<peter1138>Some version of my ancient OpenGL patch which was all wrong. 10 years old :p
14:43<peter1138>It was occasionally fast.
14:44<ZehMatt>yeah i see improvement opportunities :p
14:46<ZehMatt>https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/blob/develop/src/openrct2-ui/drawing/engines/opengl/OpenGLDrawingEngine.cpp#L486
14:46<ZehMatt>thats how its done there
14:48<LordAro>michi_cc has an opengl branch somewhere
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14:56<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/openttd.git/shortlog/refs/heads/opengl
14:58<LordAro>ta
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15:04<_dp_>hi! is it a good idea to pass NetworkClientInfo->index in network command instead of client_id?
15:05<_dp_>client_id can go up to 32bit theoretically which is too much since there are only 64 bits in parameters and a lot of other stuff I want to pass
15:06<_dp_>and there are max 256 clients anyway
15:07<_dp_>only problem I see with index is that theoretically another client can replace this one while command is queued
15:07<_dp_>but considering it's going to be used by GS it's a 1 tick window so chances are nearly 0
15:08<peter1138>That will happen all the time, then.
15:08<ZehMatt>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/gfx.cpp#L1449 wouldn't be a memset better here?
15:09<LordAro>probably
15:10<ZehMatt>hm
15:11<ZehMatt>isnt it actually width * height
15:11<peter1138>It may have been profiled at some point.
15:11<ZehMatt>a single memset would work?
15:11<ZehMatt>oh actually no
15:11<peter1138>only if width = surface width.
15:11<ZehMatt>_dirty_bytes_per_line == width you mean
15:12<ZehMatt>since buffer is plus that
15:12<ZehMatt>well at least the inner thing should use memset
15:12<ZehMatt>in most cases it will use a better path to fill the buffer
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: if the chance is not exactly 0, it's worthless
15:15<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, it may actually be 0, didn't check how network server is implemented
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: if you can't prove it's 0, it's not 0
15:16<_dp_>A lot of stuff in OpenTTD uses indexes already actually
15:19<_dp_>lol, and in exact same way I'm going to
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15:20<_dp_>Actually, much worse, since I'm only gonna keep it for 1 tick while current API has no issues exposing it to GS which can keep who knows how long
15:24<peter1138>ZehMatt, hmm, so openrct2 does it sort of like how i was doing it, but with decent non-primitive-tutorial level calls...
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15:26<peter1138>michi_cc's patch still appears to due direct calls
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15:31<peter1138>s/due/use/
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15:32<peter1138>ZehMatt, well, if you want to integrate it... ;)
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15:42<ZehMatt>would be cool
15:42<ZehMatt>but first things first
15:46<Wolf01>andythenorth: https://thelegocarblog.com/2018/04/24/technic-bugatti-chiron-picture-special/
15:46<Wolf01>peter1138: https://gist.github.com/Wolfolo/5ca23e921e64dee02dd058d2169e91ac
15:46<Wolf01>Don't mix links
15:46<Wolf01>:D
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15:49<andythenorth>Wolf01: think it's better or worse than the TLG official one? o_O
15:50<Wolf01>Better for sure, the official one will have aesthetics > functionality
15:51<Wolf01>I'll wait a month to see how EuroBricks specialists destroy the official one, then I'll decide if it's worth the purchase
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16:14<peter1138>Hmm, I see.
16:16<Wolf01>I tried building and removing road/tram, building and removing road/tram stations, depots, bridges, tunnels, and all the combinations of them, to me it seem to work
16:17<Wolf01>I also already fixed some indentations on comments because VS loves to remove trailing spaces but I didn't update the patch as I already closed the CLI
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16:17<peter1138>InvalidateRect() leads to WM_PAINT. So every time it calls InvalidateRect() it repaints immediately.
16:18<peter1138>No queuing of dirty rects.
16:19<peter1138>Hmm, maybe not.
16:22<andythenorth>Wolf01: stop worrying about code style, it's literally a button in your editor
16:22<peter1138>Nope, not the case at all.
16:22*andythenorth is being a bad person
16:22<Wolf01>I would love to have resharper
16:23<Wolf01>But it costs a bit
16:23<Wolf01>I was too much used to PHPStorm code styling
16:25<Wolf01>I never found something which can challenge that for VS, only some plugins which seem to work on 50% of the cases... and resharper (made from the same guys of PHPStorm)
16:27<andythenorth>"here am I sitting in a tin can"
16:27<andythenorth>it's Bowie time
16:27<Wolf01>+1
16:27<peter1138>3 is the magic number
16:28<andythenorth>"I am the one and only"
16:28<andythenorth>"nobody I'd rather be"
16:28<andythenorth>not Bowie
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16:34<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY27JurC1Y0 <-- on the topic of bowie
16:38<andythenorth>hmm
16:38<andythenorth>spookie timing
16:38<andythenorth>literally Life On Mars is playing right now
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16:42<andythenorth>this is not new, but eh, good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLJo8vmEcus&list=PLcdcdyQQtzh8onko-cN_X9nzWl11fzcMK&index=5
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17:39<Wolf01>http://vintagefoodtrucks.com/#showcase andythenorth, supermop_work
17:39<andythenorth>http://vintagefoodtrucks.com/#showcase
17:39<andythenorth>stupid lack of deeplinks :P
17:39<andythenorth>http://vintagefoodtrucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/2726942370.jpg
17:40<Wolf01>FAntastic
17:44*peter1138 whistles innocently.
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17:59<andythenorth>these trains are hench http://www.mainlinediesels.net/images/basic/newag_311003_55.jpg
17:59<andythenorth>http://www.newag.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Dragon-E6ACTd.jpg
17:59<peter1138>Yeah, michi_cc's opengl patch fixes my glitch graphics.
18:00<andythenorth>o_O
18:00<peter1138>Although it feels a bit sluggish :S
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18:02<peter1138>Maybe it' snot even using it :p
18:02<andythenorth>how to draw this in 8bpp 1x then? o_O http://www.docbrown.info/docspics/zmisc07/Img_9693.jpg
18:03<peter1138>Well...
18:03<peter1138>Waves hands. Vaguell.
18:03<peter1138>Vaguely, too.
18:03<peter1138>Hmm, no, it's using opengl, it is slower than without. Odd.
18:05<Wolf01>'night
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18:06<+glx>[23:44:33] peter1138 whistles innocently. <-- oups ;)
18:12<peter1138>Hmm, it's only sluggish because the quick fix of moving UpdateWindows() doesn't work.
18:13<peter1138>glx, twas an accident, but i didn't think it was possible anyway.
18:13<+glx>I think commits in master are not possible, but it's different for branches it seems
18:14<peter1138>Yeah
18:15<peter1138>Aww, it crashed on fullscreen mode.
18:26<andythenorth>http://dieselimagegallery.com/gallery/65New/9016-1-N.jpg
18:26<andythenorth>liveries :P
18:36<peter1138>Oh right, that beeping was the router restarting. D'oh.
18:36<peter1138>group-liveries!
18:36<peter1138>Also, night night
18:38<andythenorth>bye
18:38<andythenorth>also
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19:00<andythenorth>is V453000 ?
19:01<andythenorth>probably not
19:01<andythenorth>sleeping time
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19:36<muffindrake2>Is there a specific goal in openttd?
19:36-!-muffindrake2 is now known as muffindrake
19:37<muffindrake>Or is the only requirement really staying outside red numbers?
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes?
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>it's really a "set your own goals" game...
19:40<muffindrake>I see
19:40<muffindrake>I'll just stick to trains then
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>that's why there are so many people with so many different playstyles
19:40<ST2>muffindrake: you make the goals you want: cover all towns, all coal mines
19:40<ST2>etc etc
19:40<muffindrake>_trains_ everywhere
19:40<+glx>or use a game script with goal
19:40<ST2>exactly, as glx said
19:40<muffindrake>Ah, I may look into that
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, goal scripts are a nice way to set goals if you're struggling to find challenge in your own goals
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>i hear "silicon valley" is a good one
19:43<muffindrake>What's that?
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>never used it
19:43<ST2>https://bananas.openttd.org/en/gs/
19:43<ST2>available gamescripts on bananas
19:44<+glx>but use ingame downloader :)
19:44<ST2>each one has a different goal/play style
19:44<ST2>yeah, via Check Online Content button
19:45<muffindrake>does openttd perform sanity checking on those scripts?
19:45<muffindrake>Given that you can run system commands with lua
19:46<+glx>you can't do that with squirrel
19:46<ST2>lua?! this is not Factorio ^^
19:46<muffindrake>Oh no
19:46<muffindrake>Yes, I was completely off-track there
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>the squirrel interpreter disables some of the worst abuses you can do
19:47<ST2>amen to that :)
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>like commands that take a really long time and lock up the game
19:47<ST2>(despite I think Eddi|zuHause have me on his ignore list xD)
19:47<+glx>and if something wrong happens the script is just killed
19:48<ST2>and complementing glx words, throws an output of the error (file and line too)
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 25 00:00:44 2018