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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-04-25

---Logopened Wed Apr 25 00:00:44 2018
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02:18<andythenorth>ca va?
02:18<peter1138>oui oui, ca va
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02:26<V453000>yo
02:29<Eddi|zuHause>comme ci comme ca
02:29<Pikka>yoyo
02:30<V453000>I made discovery
02:30<V453000>returning to my python automation after 4 months makes it a huge pain to remember how exactly was it used :D
02:30<V453000>-> making ultimate drag&drop full automation now :>
02:31<Eddi|zuHause>the trick there is actually DOCUMENTING how it's meant to be used :p
02:31<V453000>you drop a blender sequence folder, it spits out 32 and 8bpp spritesheets including 8bpp masks :)
02:31<V453000>Eddi|zuHause, or that :D
02:31<V453000>but I think in this case it's simply not versatile enough overall
02:33<Eddi|zuHause>but making a script work on a folder you drag onto it, should be easy
02:33<Eddi|zuHause>just read sys.argv[1]
02:33<V453000>exactly :)
02:33<V453000>already got 2 working
02:33<V453000>2 more to go
02:34<andythenorth>bonjour Pikka bob
02:35<Pikka>wotcha
02:36*andythenorth must train names
02:36<andythenorth>the steam trains are all named sensibly :P
02:37<andythenorth>the diesels use silly basher nicknames, from the internet
02:37<andythenorth>so might not even be real gen
02:38<andythenorth>I tried 'Zebedee' for the class 90, but looks daft
02:39<Pikka>mmm, sensible
02:40<V453000>'Slug'
02:40<Pikka>I realised last night that the only reason I don't spell out "English Electric" is that Chris Sawyer didn't. So now i do.
02:41<V453000>is English electricity different than the rest of the world? :P
02:41<andythenorth>V453000: there is a refurbed Slug, Slug 2
02:41<andythenorth>'Slug Infinity'
02:41<andythenorth>'Slug 4 Eva'
02:41<andythenorth>?
02:41<V453000>There may be only one :P
02:41<Pikka>obviously, V
02:42<andythenorth>'Slug Resurrection'
02:42<andythenorth>what can I call the 59?
02:42<andythenorth>that is also a 60 and 66
02:42<V453000>59: Almost slug
02:43<andythenorth>More Than Slug
02:43<Pikka>'59'? I thought these were fictional ;)
02:44<Pikka>I called it a Yeoman in my tracking table, before I displaced it for the 60
02:44<V453000>andy derailed into realism
02:44<V453000>G_G
02:44<andythenorth>it's a 3,600 HP, 90MPH engine that happens to look like a 59 :P
02:44<andythenorth>and is built in 1990
02:44<andythenorth>considered "Smash Train"
02:45<andythenorth>"Space Oddity"
02:46*andythenorth still listening to Bowie
02:46<V453000>MaxSpeedAssThunder
02:46<andythenorth>"EuroTurtle" will have to be "BrexitTurtle" now
02:46<V453000>xd
02:46<andythenorth>or "we won nya nya nyah nyah remoaners Turtle"
02:46<V453000>honestly giving your vehicles animal names sounds good to me
02:46<andythenorth>yes
02:46<V453000>the grf is called horse after all
02:47<andythenorth>that is mostly the theme
02:47<Pikka>something american for the 59, then?
02:47<V453000>I like that theme
02:47<Pikka>groundhog?
02:47<Pikka>skunk? coyote?
02:47<V453000>railhog? :P
02:47<Pikka>moose. Iron Moose!
02:48<V453000>AnotherBox
02:48<andythenorth>Big Moose
02:48<andythenorth>Buffalo Soldier
02:48<andythenorth>Born In The USA
02:48<andythenorth>Black Bear
02:48<andythenorth>think I already did Grizzly somewhere
02:49<andythenorth>sad fact of community management
02:49<andythenorth>when community is more active and happy
02:49<andythenorth>more lunatics rock up and want to join in
02:50<andythenorth>then it's less happy
02:50<V453000>:D wot
02:50<andythenorth>forums innit
02:50<V453000>I was considering starting a new thread for new set
02:50<V453000>not yet I guess
02:51<V453000>your thread has lunatics?
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02:51<V453000>oh boy realism riot?
02:51<andythenorth>maybe the wrong word, mental health is a proper thing
02:51<andythenorth>but people who just don't know how to behave
02:52<V453000>:D
02:52<andythenorth>ACS121 is getting slightly toxic for the forums
02:52<andythenorth>popping up on threads literally posting un-facts
02:52<andythenorth>literally :P
02:53<andythenorth>V453000: see here, the trains are all green and blue http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/trains.html
02:53<andythenorth>not pleasing colour combo
02:54<V453000>it's not like it's not a CC ? :D
02:54<andythenorth>well it's one of the worst combos :P
02:54<V453000>so are you going to automatically recolour for web? :D
02:54<andythenorth>building a colour picker in the docs is total WTF overkill, right?
02:54<V453000>LOL
02:55<andythenorth>recolour for web is like 2 lines of code
02:55<V453000>I didn't see that coming
02:55<andythenorth>a colour picker is....hmm
02:55<V453000>idk, sure is fancy
02:55<andythenorth>most likely nobody ever ever uses it
02:55<V453000>but hey, helps sell the product!
02:55<V453000>:D
02:55<andythenorth>and I don't need it
02:55<V453000>more lunatics attracted by shiny too
02:55<andythenorth>what's the best colour combo? Still red + white?
02:55<V453000>tool
02:56<V453000>I like many combinations
02:56<andythenorth>purple and cream
02:56<andythenorth>white and grey
02:56<V453000>I think I often use brown + blue, blue + green
02:56<andythenorth>I miss the 'make it CC black' grf
02:56<andythenorth>I lost it
02:56<V453000>white + almost any, gray + almost any
02:56<andythenorth>is RGB colours done?
02:56<V453000>andythenorth: it's on bananas or our grf pack
02:56<andythenorth>such bananas
02:57<V453000>we definitely use it in our current game
02:57<andythenorth>can't find it on bananas
02:57<V453000>honestly, purple is eww :D
02:57<V453000>pack then
02:58<andythenorth>wow loads of horse names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_horse_breeds
02:58<V453000>:D you've got stuff to draw.
02:58<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knabstrupper
02:59<andythenorth>ha ha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Cracker_Horse
03:02<Pikka><andythenorth> I miss the 'make it CC black' grf <- do we need an updated betterCC grf? :o
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03:04<andythenorth>we need arbitrary remap of CC
03:04<andythenorth>there's a patch for that :P
03:04<V453000>everything black
03:04<andythenorth>and more CC
03:04<andythenorth>3CC
03:04<Pikka>rgbcc :D
03:04<andythenorth>4CC
03:05<andythenorth>there are ranges I use for recolouring which no sensible vehicle ever needs
03:05<andythenorth>could be 4CC :P
03:05<andythenorth>there's a purple, and a brick-red
03:06<andythenorth>ok I rename 'Slug Resurrection' to 'Phoenix'
03:06<andythenorth>it's an animal, and Total Realism also
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03:08<andythenorth>https://farm1.staticflickr.com/647/32460200926_949a16c8b2_b.jpg
03:09<Pikka>nice
03:10<andythenorth>'Wizzo' is silly, let's rename it
03:13<peter1138>This KeldorKatarn guy is good at saying everything is shit without actually doing anything better.
03:14<V453000>sounds like a common trend
03:14<V453000>It's not like I have been doing anything else for years now peter1138 :P
03:15<andythenorth>peter1138 if you read some of his posts in his own thread it's pretty 'pot, kettle'
03:15<andythenorth>he makes a patchpack to entertain himself
03:16<andythenorth>and is really clear he's not supporting feature requests etc
03:16<andythenorth>but expects something different from core
03:17<andythenorth>I think there's actually a good discussion there
03:17<andythenorth>about core, and about newgrf also
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03:17<andythenorth>but it will just get nitpick replies and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
03:18<andythenorth>and ACS121 is actually posting incorrect shit
03:18<andythenorth>oops, elswhere I should be
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03:31<Wolf01>o/
03:32<__ln__>\o
03:32<__ln__>are you not "working" anymore?
03:32<Wolf01>Holiday
03:33<Wolf01>And Monday/Wednesday too
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04:04<peter1138>hi
04:04<Wolf01>o/
04:04<peter1138>so i decided to work from home
04:04<peter1138>https://mydrive.tomtom.com/en_gb/#mode=viewport+viewport=51.80742,-0.81737,11.93,0,-0+ver=3
04:04<peter1138>fuck
04:04<peter1138>fucked, i mean
04:04<peter1138>i need to fix my commuter bike :S
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04:13<SpComb>normal commuter traffic?
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04:15<andythenorth>current names http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9009/horse_names.png
04:15<ZehMatt>happy train
04:16<ZehMatt>molestering childs since 2000 (TM)
04:16<andythenorth>wasn't my first association with the name :P
04:17<__ln__>"childs"
04:17<Wolf01>Better than "childrens"
04:17<ZehMatt>heh
04:18<Wolf01>English: where you can have a plural form of a plural form :P
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04:20<ZehMatt>most chat platforms allow me to hide my bad english before anyone notices not so much on irc :(
04:20<peter1138>How do we just get NRT into master?
04:20<peter1138>Fuck rewriting it :p
04:20<peter1138>Just tidy up the TODOs.
04:20<__ln__>i suggest the method of git add + git push
04:20<andythenorth>can we rewite it in master?
04:20<andythenorth>o_O
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04:21<Wolf01>/me is going to check tires
04:21<andythenorth>cards on the table: if it's in trunk I'll need to do an RV set :P
04:21<andythenorth>and I'm drawing trains right now :P
04:21<andythenorth>Wolf01: lego tyres?
04:21<__ln__>https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wite
04:22<peter1138>andythenorth, as far as I can see, it doesn't need rewriting. The git history is a miss with all the merges, so that is undesirable to include imho.
04:22<andythenorth>Wolf01 ^ opinions?
04:22<peter1138>TODOs can be fixed in master but would be nice to have them sorted first.
04:23<peter1138>I dunno how other devs feel of course.
04:23<andythenorth>there is that
04:23<andythenorth>meanwhile, what to test on livery UI?
04:23<peter1138>I haven't changed anything since last time ;p
04:23<andythenorth>ok I try and break it
04:23<peter1138>Still the resize bug.
04:24<peter1138>Oh yes, if you want to make that icon so that it brings up the UI and selects the livery that might be nice
04:24<peter1138>Makes it less hidden.
04:24<andythenorth>I never understood why the dropdowns aren't in the rows
04:24<andythenorth>it's weird to focus row, then use dropdown at top
04:24<andythenorth>but eh, history
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04:25<andythenorth>well I couldn't break it so far
04:26<peter1138>Because the rows are not real.
04:26<peter1138>The dropdowns are real widgets.
04:26<andythenorth>ok
04:26<andythenorth>it's unrelated to groups, I just find livery UI weird :)
04:26<andythenorth> no checkboxes is a win
04:26<peter1138>Does the checkbox change improve it?
04:26<peter1138>Heh
04:27<andythenorth>it doesn't improve it when you want to reset to default
04:27<andythenorth>but it improves it in all other ways
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04:27<andythenorth>the next trick would be arbitrary rules for groups :P
04:27<andythenorth>and delete 'Passenger Coach (Monorail)' and such daftness
04:28<andythenorth>mail is also passengers which is...eh
04:28<peter1138>Just let players script it with something ;p
04:28<andythenorth>newgrf colours :P
04:29<peter1138>SQ
04:29<andythenorth>cb and varact2 chain
04:29<andythenorth>SQ could work :)
04:30<andythenorth>also cabooses are passengers apparently
04:30<andythenorth>even though no cargo capacity
04:30*andythenorth needs to read src
04:30<peter1138>Well they still have a cargo type, even if the capacity is zero.
04:31<peter1138>And passengers would be the default type as it's the first in the list.
04:31<andythenorth>right
04:31<andythenorth>that makes sense
04:31<peter1138>Engines are the same except as they have power they are treated differently.
04:31<andythenorth>trying to figure out the rules
04:31<andythenorth>seems to be LiveryClass
04:32<peter1138>livery class is only a UI thing.
04:32<andythenorth>I am in company_gui.cpp
04:32<andythenorth>wrong place?
04:33<peter1138>Yes
04:33<andythenorth>LS_PASSENGER_WAGON_STEAM seems more likely to get results
04:33<peter1138>GetEngineLiveryScheme in vehicle.cpp is where it actually happens.
04:34<andythenorth>found it ta
04:34<andythenorth>stick some squirrel in
04:34<andythenorth>cache results somehow
04:35<peter1138>:p
04:35<andythenorth>job's a good un
04:35<peter1138>They lot is actually cached.
04:35<peter1138>-They+This
04:36<andythenorth>so I could probably fix cabooses with cargo trick
04:36<peter1138>And yeah, it uses the is_freight flag, so I guess that is false for mail.
04:36<peter1138>Yeah but what if it's a caboose on a passenger train :p
04:36<andythenorth>that too
04:36<peter1138>Just make them black.
04:36<andythenorth>ok so merge this, then I can draw an icon later, and we can call it a new feature
04:37<peter1138>;(
04:37<andythenorth>works for me, how much can go wrong
04:37<peter1138>Hah
04:37<andythenorth>:P
04:37<peter1138>Well the matrix is wrong :D
04:37<andythenorth>I mean, nothing ever breaks in production in RL for me :P
04:38<peter1138>Wolf01, I just realised, that was sarcasm right?
04:39<ZehMatt>why_do_we_do_this ;(
04:39<peter1138>Wolf01, sorry I suggested splitting it, and you put effort into that. I figured splitting was a way forward but I'm not sure now.
04:40<andythenorth>should the livery groups show the hierarchy?
04:40*andythenorth thinks don't bother
04:44<peter1138>Indeed, don't think it's necessary.
04:44<peter1138>Although that does affect the sort order as well.
04:45<andythenorth>yeah keep it simple
04:46<andythenorth>being able to do this at all is a nice feature
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05:00<andythenorth>ugly peter1138 http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9010/group_livery_icon.png
05:00<andythenorth>I'll improve
05:05<andythenorth>should it have the train / ship / whatever in it?
05:06<Wolf01><peter1138> TODOs can be fixed in master but would be nice to have them sorted first. <- some are sorted on the town-roads branch, others I don't have any idea on what to do, for example there is still one I can't understand why it doesn't work on my rewrite and I put the same "return true"
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05:07<Wolf01><peter1138> andythenorth, as far as I can see, it doesn't need rewriting. <- no, it doesn't but on the rewrite I changed some inconsistent parts, I can change them on the old repo too without problems
05:09<Wolf01><peter1138> Wolf01, sorry I suggested splitting it, and you put effort into that. <- no problem, I took it as an exercise to improve my coding skill
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05:20<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9011/group_livery_icon_2.png
05:20<Wolf01>Better, with vehicles it contains too much info for a tiny icon
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05:24<andythenorth>it's not right http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9013/group_livery_meh.png
05:24<andythenorth>doesn't fit style
05:24<Wolf01>Mmmh
05:24<Wolf01>MAke the 3 trains of different colour without the palette?
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05:24<andythenorth>yeah
05:25<andythenorth>or rainbow train
05:25<andythenorth>but then there are planes, ships, RV icons too
05:25<Wolf01>Or a little palette with just 4 colours on top right?
05:26<peter1138>Or a little paint brush
05:26<Wolf01>+1
05:26<andythenorth>I hate drawing icons :)
05:26<peter1138>I like the palette though
05:26<peter1138>Just it doesn't quite fit.
05:27<peter1138>Also like the purple on the tankers.
05:27<V453000>I'd expect the 3 trains like on the other group icons and a palette at the top left ... maybe it's not necessary to use all 16 colours though :) 9 or 4 might work?
05:27<V453000>*top right
05:27<andythenorth>oops, I made the windows logo
05:27<andythenorth>4 colours
05:27<andythenorth>probably copyright :P
05:28<V453000>xd
05:28<Wolf01>You don't have many choices with 4 colours: windows, AVG, google
05:28<peter1138>:D
05:29<Wolf01>You can use pink, orange, cyan, purple
05:29<V453000>gay
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05:29<Pikka>+1 for paintbrush (and pot?)
05:29<peter1138>Make it a trans flag.
05:30<Wolf01>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT31IbM6hrI /me was here :P
05:30<peter1138>Unrealistic. Not stubby enough.
05:31<peter1138>They'd be glitching in real life.
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05:32<__ln__>what's wrong with those people just standing still on the platform
05:34<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9014/group_livery_3.png
05:35<andythenorth>Pikka: can you draw a paintbrush? o_O
05:35*andythenorth can't :P
05:35<Wolf01>Borrow old win95 icons :_D
05:35<andythenorth>also breakfast, work, shops, tidying, washing
05:35*andythenorth oops time
05:35<Pikka>yes
05:36<andythenorth>32bpp paintbrush?
05:36<Pikka>yes to "oops time", not to drawing a paintbrush :P
05:41<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9015/group_livery_less_meh.png
05:41<andythenorth>paintbrush another time :P
05:44<andythenorth>eh this is maybe ok http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9016/group_livery_even_less_meh.png
05:44<Wolf01>Better, the other one was too big
05:44<peter1138>That looks good to me
05:45<andythenorth>it happens to be same size as the + * icon thing
05:45<andythenorth>so it overlays
05:45<andythenorth>I'll put them in openttdgui.png
05:46<peter1138>Yeah, don't need to fabricate the missing parts
05:46<peter1138>Or whereever they were salvages from.
05:46<andythenorth>the one in your fork has the icons fixed?
05:46<peter1138>-s+d
05:46<peter1138>master has the icons fixed.
05:46<andythenorth>ok I use that
05:46<andythenorth>merge conflicts on pngs :P
05:46<andythenorth>pita
05:47<peter1138>SO, er, I guess my fork also :p
05:47<peter1138>Yeah, well you could use a separate PNG for each sprite.
05:47<peter1138>And then just make OpenTTD load PNGs. Again.
05:47<andythenorth>slighltly painful
05:48<peter1138>That was fun, dropping PNG support.
05:48<peter1138>We're so evil.
05:50*peter1138 pushes a force update after using git rebase to edit a previous commit. I'm so bad.
05:50<peter1138>(Not openttd)
05:50<andythenorth>peter1138: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9018/openttdgui.png
05:51<andythenorth>I could do a PR and stuff :P
05:51<andythenorth>or you can download that
05:51<peter1138>In my own branch? heh
05:51<peter1138>Maybe I can use them in the livery gui too.
05:51<peter1138>At the moment it's using the clone icons :p
05:52<andythenorth>I wondered
05:52<andythenorth>yeah the proportions might be better
05:52<peter1138>Possibly having just a plain unadorned version would be good.
05:52<andythenorth>clone is narrow
05:52<andythenorth>just the little palette?
05:52<peter1138>Yeah, it's a smaller icon.
05:52<peter1138>No, just the vehicles. As well, for the livery window.
05:53<peter1138>I'm asking too much :p
05:53<andythenorth>ah ok
05:53<peter1138>But none of the other icons have palette icons in there.
05:53<andythenorth>nope
05:53<andythenorth>I can maybe do that later
05:54<andythenorth>all the sprites are there to copy from, it's just some work
06:12<peter1138>So the Nintendo Switch has a bug...
06:12<andythenorth>orly? o_O
06:12<peter1138>Can be broken into by a bootrom bug which can't be patched out.
06:13<peter1138>So I await OpenTTD on it :p
06:13<peter1138>And then people claiming it's shit becuase the UI is designed for mouse.
06:13<andythenorth>my kids want one
06:13<andythenorth>I am refusing
06:15<peter1138>As you would.
06:16<andythenorth>wow this sprite changed http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9019/chinook_eh.png
06:16<andythenorth>v2, v1
06:17<V453000>moar detailz
06:18<V453000>iz good
06:20<andythenorth>also https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1205916#p1205916
06:29<peter1138>Top one looks better
06:30<Wolf01>As it should
06:39<andythenorth>phew
06:44<andythenorth>derp
06:44<andythenorth>why am I recompiling the newgrf to test names? :P
06:44<andythenorth>can just rename in game
06:46<peter1138>That hidden feature.
06:49<andythenorth>someone should rename the button
06:49<andythenorth>make it more obvious
06:50<peter1138>Needs an icon!
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07:36<peter1138>Hmm, lunch time?
07:36<Wolf01>Maybe
07:45<andythenorth>it's weird how people draw all the sprites
07:45<andythenorth>then code
07:45<andythenorth>ass backwards
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07:47<peter1138>Well.
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07:49<V453000>I'm making a full code prototype first andy :)
07:50<V453000>BUT after the prototype I will make the "real" definitions of proper sprites after I have the sprites ... for freedom when making them, layers could work differently, some cargoes shared, ...
07:59<andythenorth>I learnt to make flash games using mono-colour primitive shapes
07:59<andythenorth>if you can't move a triangle around a platform game, it's not much good as a game
08:00<V453000>:)
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08:03<andythenorth>well http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/trains.html
08:03<andythenorth>probly needs force-refresh of browser
08:03<andythenorth>now red and white trains
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08:12<V453000>I can't say I am much of a fan of white+red, can I get a colour picker?
08:12<V453000>:D
08:13<peter1138>That's nicer than green+blue.
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08:15<andythenorth>V453000: I thought of offering a few examples
08:19<andythenorth>yuck
08:19<andythenorth>when the bread is invisibly mouldy
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08:26<Eddi|zuHause>hey, i was trying to eat here
08:27<peter1138>If the bread is green+blue then it's probably not edible.
08:30<andythenorth>recolour it
08:44<andythenorth>V453000: o_O http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/trains.html
08:45<V453000>nice, 14 rows to go
08:45<V453000>:P
08:46<andythenorth>well
08:46<andythenorth>16 * 16 no?
08:48<V453000>even better :P
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09:01<Eddi|zuHause>and here i was thinking big bertha was a cannon, not a steam engine...
09:02<andythenorth>I considered a railgun
09:02<andythenorth>but can't justify it :P
09:15<FLHerne>andythenorth: Is that Collett thing supposed to be a tank loco? (72xx-ish) It looks very odd to me
09:15<andythenorth>it's unfinished
09:15<andythenorth>damn, now I have to learn to draw steam locos
09:15<andythenorth>I was going to do some work work
09:15<FLHerne>Rest of the lineup looks very nice :D
09:15<FLHerne>And the wobsite
09:15<andythenorth>your comment on the IC livery the other day, I had to redraw everything that uses it :P
09:16<FLHerne>Um
09:16<FLHerne>Perhaps I should stop commenting on things
09:16<andythenorth>can't unsee once seen
09:16<andythenorth>well it's improved it
09:16<FLHerne>Oh, and I still can't get over your gradienty windows
09:16<FLHerne>Particularly the 3px-high ones
09:17<FLHerne>(Metro/Fleet)
09:17<andythenorth>look too recessed?
09:17<FLHerne>No, just really weird
09:17<andythenorth>are those metro ones grey?
09:17*andythenorth wonders
09:17<FLHerne>(fwiw, the original TTD coaches make me feel the same way)
09:17<FLHerne>(but not the OGFX ones)
09:17<andythenorth>yeah they're grey
09:17<andythenorth>not purple
09:18<andythenorth>Dan probably had a reason
09:18<andythenorth>at the time
09:18<andythenorth>purple better though
09:19<FLHerne>Three different iterations of shoebox seems excessive?
09:19<andythenorth>it's about keeping up with speeds
09:19<andythenorth>I considered something different to make a chang
09:19<andythenorth>change *
09:19<andythenorth>waiting for inspiration
09:20<FLHerne>And it would be fun for me if the Sizzler had a low-power diesel mode like the real 88s, but that might be too confusing for this set :P
09:20<andythenorth>I had a SparkyCat electro diesel
09:21<andythenorth>removed it this morning
09:21<andythenorth>it's a nice trick, but there's no gameplay situation where 7000HP electric and 1800HP diesel is good :P
09:21<andythenorth>I really wanted to keep, because it's a nice bit of code
09:21<FLHerne>Saves having catenary all over my crane-filled docks
09:21<FLHerne>That looks horrible
09:22<andythenorth>well there is that
09:22<andythenorth>it's a couple of lines to restore it, I'll see how playtesting goes
09:22<andythenorth>there is a viable grf http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/
09:23<andythenorth>75% of it is missing sprites
09:23<andythenorth>but eh
09:23<FLHerne>Hm, will try
09:23<FLHerne>95mph for the Express Tank just looks weird
09:23<andythenorth>such fast tank engines :)
09:23<FLHerne>It would be fun watching the wheels fly off when someone tried it with a real one
09:24<FLHerne>I mean, it's faster than anything else available up to that point, and equal to the huge express-pax loco from the same year
09:25<andythenorth>yes
09:25<andythenorth>that's the design of the set
09:25<andythenorth>the small engine is same speed as fast pax engine
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09:25<andythenorth>I'm considering a more-realistic-speeds parameter
09:26<andythenorth>it's easy to do if it's wanted, but the gameplay won't balanace
09:26<FLHerne>I'm thinking most of your speed steps seem a bit high, really
09:27<FLHerne>110 for the first-gen shoebox is silly
09:27<andythenorth>they're about 15mph over
09:27<FLHerne>140 for a rebuilt shoebox is just patently insane
09:27<andythenorth>it's just a consequence of arithmetic
09:28<andythenorth>new vehicle generation every 30 years
09:28<andythenorth>set starts in 1860
09:28<FLHerne>What stops them all just being a step lower? Balance with other modes?
09:28<andythenorth>then freight is untenable until 1930
09:29<andythenorth>if there were fewer generations, the problem would be reduced
09:29<FLHerne>Meh, I've built early networks with Pikka's things before
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09:29<FLHerne>35mph is a bit annoying, but it's workable
09:29<andythenorth>if you wanted to propose settings for a speed parameter, I would implement
09:30<andythenorth>there are two ways it can be done (but have to pick one)
09:30<andythenorth>Horse has per-generation speeds, in vehicle classes
09:31<andythenorth>hmm code is easier
09:31<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/entry/src/rosters/pony.py#L56
09:31<FLHerne>I really think it would be nicer just to bump every step down by 15mph, and maybe fudge the very early ones to 40mph or so
09:31<andythenorth>the parameter could just scale those speeds up or down ^^
09:31<andythenorth>or there is the option to set speeds individually on vehicles (but only for engines0
09:32<andythenorth>but I'm not doing a parameter for both
09:32<FLHerne>Setting speeds individually just sounds like a pain
09:32<andythenorth>so speed parameter is either: 'realistic' | "unrealistic"
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think there's a good case for making a parameter here
09:32<andythenorth>or "slower" | "faster"
09:32<FLHerne>All anyone can do with it is unbalance things
09:33<FLHerne>I still don't see why 'faster' needs to be an option :P
09:33<andythenorth>author's privilege
09:33<andythenorth>there's no rationale, other than "I like it"
09:33<andythenorth>I like that the UK roster has insane fast freight trains
09:34<andythenorth>other rosters...won't
09:34<FLHerne>Well, okay, it's your set :-)
09:34<andythenorth>but I think it will put other people off
09:35<andythenorth>the ship grfs I did have speed parameters for similar reasons
09:35<andythenorth>and capacity parameters in Horse and Hog
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09:36<Eddi|zuHause>Freight speed: {Masochist|Junkie}
09:36<andythenorth>:)
09:36<andythenorth>FLHerne: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/precxjg6y
09:36<V453000>fast is fun :)
09:36<andythenorth>all it needs is an alternative set of values there, and I need to then code it
09:37<andythenorth>and $someone has to decide about progression
09:37<andythenorth>what I've found is that progression isn't a big deal, except when it's meaninglessly small
09:37<andythenorth>then it just seems stupid
09:37<andythenorth>like 5mph increases are dumb
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>having all steps the same size is problematic because there's an exponential component to it, which expresses over long timeframes
09:38<andythenorth>yes
09:38<andythenorth>I don't progress at all between gen 1 and 2
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>so you could have one step size for the eariler generations, and another for the later ones
09:38<andythenorth>it's not always necessary
09:38<andythenorth>and yes, the step sizes can vary
09:38<V453000>it's definitely good to have big steps in progression :)
09:38<supermop_work>andythenorth: small increases aren't worth re-timetabling your trains
09:39<andythenorth>the later pax trains progress at 30mph steps
09:39<V453000>but at the same time you want it reasonably often
09:39<andythenorth>everything everybody said
09:39<V453000>in my set, I'm adding a paramerter for game length
09:39<andythenorth>V453000: does it scale intro dates? o_O
09:39<V453000>well now it doesn't exist, but yes it will do exactly that
09:39<andythenorth>srsly
09:39<V453000>possible even shift, so a parameter for start, and multiplier for length
09:40<andythenorth>if you find a good way to do that, I think we should implement it same way
09:40<V453000>why not :) is not realism
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a horrible kludge in lieu of generic daylength setting
09:40<andythenorth>I want to do it, but it only makes sense if all the grfs you're using do it the same way
09:40<V453000>well if I have 11 vehicles, each of them is 20 years apart, you can just do start+multipler*level*20
09:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: well, there should be some tech tree instead
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>because every newgrf author ever now must duplicate the same setting
09:40<andythenorth>and let openttd handle the dates
09:40<andythenorth>assign 16 generations
09:41<andythenorth>or 8
09:41<andythenorth>and let game handle introductions
09:41<andythenorth>then fix expiry too
09:41<V453000>well you could of course change the expiring with the same parameter
09:41<V453000>not sure if I would
09:42<V453000>thing is, sometimes people just want to use set on a goal server which lasts 3 hours, sometimes people want to use set on a server and play for 4 days straight
09:42<andythenorth>ys
09:43<andythenorth>blatantly decoupling vehicle introduction from specific dates would be winningest
09:43<V453000>and when the set isn't realistic, it's not even that bad compared to daylength shit
09:43<andythenorth>daylength is a turkey
09:43<V453000>well regardless, I'll probably do it :)
09:44<V453000>if for nothing else, then for compatibility with other sets
09:44<andythenorth>FLHerne: so if pax speeds were capped at 110mph, would that bother you? o_O
09:44<V453000>your ship set is 1900-1980 and you want to match it? easy
09:44<andythenorth>I have solved ships
09:44<andythenorth>one generation :P
09:44<FLHerne>A bit, yes
09:44<FLHerne>I mean, we have 125mph ones right now
09:45<andythenorth>is the issue the speeds, or is it having a fast shoebox train?
09:45<FLHerne>(and 140mph-capable if NR had their heads screwed on)
09:46<FLHerne>andythenorth: Speed:date , which ~= speed:prototype
09:47<FLHerne>110mph is fine, but 110mph in 1960 with all the locos based on 90-100mph things seems odd
09:47<andythenorth>cap it down?
09:47<andythenorth>then go to 110mph in 1990?
09:47<andythenorth>then 125 in 2020?
09:48<FLHerne>[14:31] <FLHerne> I really think it would be nicer just to bump every step down by 15mph, and maybe fudge the very early ones to 40mph or so
09:48<FLHerne>^ is that, pretty much :P
09:50<andythenorth>for pax and freight both same?
09:50<FLHerne>Yes
09:50<andythenorth>shall I just multiply it by 0.8? :P
09:50<FLHerne>1990 being 75/110 is definitely right
09:51<andythenorth>it is realism
09:51<FLHerne>Well, yes
09:51<andythenorth>the magic numbers 125 and 225 were big for BR marketing in the 80s and 90s
09:51<andythenorth>but the trains didn't usually go that fast
09:52<FLHerne>Well, it's not as if you actually have an HST or Electra
09:52<peter1138>Hi.
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>in CETS i tried to make it so the speeds reflected the actual timetable speed rather than the advertised "top" speed
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>not sure i succeeded everywhere
09:53<andythenorth>30 or 40mph as low end freight?
09:53<FLHerne>Hm
09:53<FLHerne>35 or 40? 30 is just tedious
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09:54<FLHerne>How's the APT supposed to balance?
09:54<FLHerne>It's faster than the generation of pax locos from 10 years later
09:54<andythenorth>yes
09:54<andythenorth>but if you don't run it on dedicated paths...it's a mess
09:54<FLHerne>Capacity?
09:54<FLHerne>Price?
09:54<FLHerne>Ah
09:54<andythenorth>it's a bit OP / troll
09:55<andythenorth>max freight speed? looks like there is a 20mph jump currently to 110mph
09:55<andythenorth>90?
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09:55<FLHerne>I have a suspicion that people will solve that one by just making all their pax trains APT from 1980-2020
09:55<FLHerne>Well, no, 2000 and then Pendo
09:56<andythenorth>yes
09:56<andythenorth>I'm fine with that
09:56<andythenorth>trains are there, can be used
09:56<FLHerne>Yes
09:56<andythenorth>I considered new track type...but meh
09:56<peter1138>"I'd love coupling, decoupling etc. It wouldn't need much work though."
09:56<peter1138>lol
09:57<FLHerne>I guess I just don't see when the Thunderbird/Screamer would be a rational choice
09:57<FLHerne>They're the same as each other, but still faster than the previous gen so you need an upgrade
09:57<andythenorth>yes
09:57<FLHerne>And by that point the APT is already available for years, and faster
09:58<andythenorth>yes
09:58<FLHerne>So why wouldn't I just upgrade/retimetable for those instead, if not explicitly aiming for variety etc?
09:58<andythenorth>you probably would
09:58<andythenorth>but dropping the other types is weird
09:58<FLHerne>(which I would, but that's not the point)
09:58<andythenorth>weirder than not
09:58<FLHerne>Yes
09:58<andythenorth>also no mail on pendos
09:59<andythenorth>so eh
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09:59<andythenorth>that messes your network up eh :)
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09:59<andythenorth>how's this look? https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pdm944pkd
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>deciding between engine+wagons or EMU is mostly a roleplaying choice
09:59<FLHerne>Ah, that makes some sense
09:59<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: +1
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>just make sure the balance is not totally off
10:00<andythenorth>I played one test game, seemed fine there
10:00<FLHerne>Hm, I think freight-2 should be 45
10:00<andythenorth>ok changed
10:00<FLHerne>35 is playable, but I wouldn't want to play it for /too/ long :P
10:01<andythenorth>I push a one-off build of this, no parameter
10:01<andythenorth>you can try
10:01<FLHerne>Which ones are fast_freight?
10:02<FLHerne>On the list-page, both freight locos for each gen seem to have the same speed
10:02<andythenorth>they do
10:02<andythenorth>fast freight uses an express loco
10:03<andythenorth>"New on the iOS and Android stores: Iron Horse, the Missing Manual" :P
10:03<FLHerne>Oh, I see, that's for wagons
10:04<FLHerne>(is it?)
10:04<andythenorth>yes
10:05<FLHerne>Ok, makes sense
10:05<andythenorth>hmm the engines aren't as easy to do
10:05<andythenorth>this is what branches are for :P
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10:08<andythenorth>FLHerne: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/iron-horse-r2223.zip
10:08<andythenorth>only the wagons / coaches are done...so it's weird
10:09<andythenorth>makes the engine-wagon balance meaningless
10:09<andythenorth>I can sort that out later
10:14<FLHerne>There seem to be identical pairs of some wagons (because of the identical speed steps?)
10:15<FLHerne>Tangentially, are three different lengths of tank car in every gen really needed?
10:16<FLHerne>And one of the "Metal Car (Small)"s is the same size as the other Large cars and twice as big as the previous small metal ones
10:18<FLHerne>And the Chinnooks merge together into one long loco in \ /
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10:32<FLHerne>I do think these speeds are about right
10:32<andythenorth>ok
10:32<andythenorth>the metal cars are a bit challenging
10:32<andythenorth>both size and speed-wise
10:32<andythenorth>Horse 2 wagons set capacity based on length :P
10:33<andythenorth>ok I'll do some work work, then set speeds for locos
10:33<andythenorth>and add a parameter
10:33<@Alberth>o/
10:33<andythenorth>hi Alberth
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10:34<FLHerne>That's funny, the window area of the pax cars changes colour on corners :P
10:35<andythenorth>only the – views are drawn
10:35<andythenorth>the rest, if they exist, are horse 1
10:36<andythenorth>supermop_work: o/
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10:57<Wolf01>Meh, another "OTTD is dying, long life to OTTD"
10:58<Wolf01>*another topic
10:58<andythenorth>let's all start one
10:58<andythenorth>I think I can write a bot to do the replies
10:59<andythenorth>procedurally, not even natural language processing or anything
10:59<@Alberth>just refer to the previous thread each time :p
11:07<peter1138>I love the comment that went something like "if nobody had written it, nobody would have written it"
11:07<andythenorth>I couldn't understand that tbh
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11:15<peter1138>Should I finish off group livery tonight, or... go out on my MTB ride.
11:15<peter1138>I reckon the latter.
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11:20<muffindrake>I wonder how depots and hangars manage to be bigger on the inside
11:20<andythenorth>tardis
11:21<peter1138>There's no game scale, so...
11:21<peter1138>Runways are much longer than they appear as well.
11:21<peter1138>Space-time dilations all over the place.
11:23<peter1138>Hmm, I would quite like drive-through depots though. Same as a normal depot but with 2 exits.
11:23<peter1138>Probably doesn't even need new sprites
11:23<peter1138>Maybe have a flag to say if a vehicle is actually just passing through or stopping.
11:24<peter1138>Someone must have done a patch for that!
11:24<@Alberth>if you make a 90 degree turn in the depot, you might need a new graphic :)
11:24<peter1138>No, just straight through.
11:24<andythenorth>there was a patch for that in dev forum
11:24<@Alberth>yeah, would work
11:25<peter1138>With the ability to just drive through without stopping you could then have your "realistic" massive depots...
11:25<peter1138>Although clicking on the right tile to find a train.
11:26<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=42312&hilit=drive+through+depot
11:26<Wolf01>I would like depots like stations too, 1 train per depot and length limited on how many of them you chain, drive-through too, if you need more trains make another "platform"
11:26<andythenorth>I am potato/potato on depots
11:26<andythenorth>but eh
11:27<peter1138>Wolf01, not keen on 1 train per depot tbh.
11:27<peter1138>andythenorth, 2009 ;(
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11:27<andythenorth>well not much has changed since then eh :)
11:28<peter1138>"Get that into your head" wow, I was horrible.
11:28<peter1138>Oh but I was only borrowing his style :p
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11:29<peter1138>andythenorth, well, the patch has gone anyway.
11:29<andythenorth>:P
11:31<andythenorth>ah the good old days
11:31<andythenorth>when things were properly toxic sometimes
11:31<andythenorth>instead of boringly toxic
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11:36<andythenorth>FLHerne: is the lack of realism on engine speeds going to be upsetting?
11:36<andythenorth>fake 37 and fake 20 will be 60mph
11:37<andythenorth>IRL 90mph
11:37<FLHerne>Eh, it's better than now, and train speed should still be right
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you'll always upset *someone*
11:38<andythenorth>I know
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>the question is how large that fraction is
11:38<andythenorth>I just prefer to make it a choice, not an accident
11:38<andythenorth>is that pyschopathic, or mature? o_O
11:38<FLHerne>I wonder if you could just make the first 37 be 75mph and skip the second one, having three variants seems a bit pointless
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>and whether there's a sane thing to do to reduce that fraction, without giving up the core goal you're trying to achieve
11:39<FLHerne>(yes, I do know that screws up your nice generations)
11:39<andythenorth>it's just annoying to the player
11:39<andythenorth>there are engines in horse 1 that are faster than the wagons they pull
11:39<andythenorth>it just seems badly designed :)
11:40<FLHerne>At 75, it could be used for secondary pax trains using the previous gen of wagons
11:41<FLHerne>(not sure how you're doing expiry, if at all?)
11:41<FLHerne>While still being slower than the express ones at 90
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11:41<FLHerne>Which seems like an accurate summary of how 37s are actually used :P
11:42<andythenorth>I am trying to figure out if I can avoid a speed parameter
11:43<andythenorth>I don't like 110mph freight trains in my game
11:43<FLHerne>TBH, I find your perfectly-regimented generations a bit dull, but I know I'm not quite the target market ;-)
11:43<andythenorth>it's fine, I had the same concern for a while
11:43<andythenorth>I got over it
11:44<andythenorth>mostly I am playing GS rather than making a train set
11:44<andythenorth>both are valid, but Horse is more oriented to goal play
11:44<FLHerne>Given the way they come in batches for exactly the same roles, it seems like it's just
11:44<Wolf01>BTW these features https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=53394 should be considered, small things which might greatly improve some gameplay
11:44<FLHerne>"Oh, the new trains came along, better set autoreplace again"
11:44<andythenorth>yes
11:44<andythenorth>there is no consist management tool of any kind
11:45<andythenorth>so you don't want to be manually managing consists often
11:45<FLHerne>And then all my trains are 15mph faster, and I buy the new ones instead of the old, and that's it
11:45<andythenorth>if there was a template-based consist tool, I'd probably do something different
11:45<Flygon_>(Oh jeeze, the speed debate...)
11:46<andythenorth>Horse is designed to fit the OpenTTD we have today, where replacing consists is not a thing
11:46<andythenorth>global autoreplace ftw :P
11:46<Flygon_>(Never mind the fact that VLocity sets here officially do 160km/h, could realistically do 200km/h, but are actually capable of 225km/h... but trainsets go with the service speed decided because V/Line is too broke to upgrade to incab signalling. :3)
11:46<andythenorth>Flygon_: such realities :)
11:47<peter1138>Wolf01, yeah, I looked at that last year when I had a flurry of activity.
11:47<Flygon_>(We have DMUs that could go as fast as early Shinkansens, but our Government is bad at investing money. :3)
11:47<Flygon_>(Anyway, it's 1:47AM. Good night!)
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>"could realistically do 200km/h, but are actually capable of 225km/h" <-- all trains are tested to 10% above their nominal top speed
11:47<Flygon_>Okay. I'm suppose to actually sleep, but...
11:47<Flygon_>Basicallly.
11:48<Flygon_>The transmission is actually designed for 225km/h, and the sets themselves have been driven to 200-210km/h or so during testing.
11:48<Flygon_>Difficulty level - Optical signalling.
11:48<FLHerne>andythenorth: In principle, I think it would be neat if one of the freight-ish locos per generation was more of a mixed-traffic thing, at the previous gen's express speed
11:48<peter1138>Wolf01, I started pulling things from patch-packs but got frustrated as we didn't use git properly then. And then I saw the Saveload changes.
11:48<Flygon_>So they are capped at 160km/h because the signalling sucks.
11:48<Flygon_>Not any actual hardware limitation.
11:48<FLHerne>Then the boring people can just have it pull freight, and people who want an overcomplicated heirarchy of speeds can have one
11:49<andythenorth>FLHerne: yeah they miss by 20mph eh
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: i mean, if a train is going to be licensed for 200km/h, it must achieve a stable speed of 220km/h during tests
11:49<andythenorth>FLHerne: do a paste that lines them up? o_O
11:49<FLHerne>andythenorth: Sorry, I don't quite understand what you said :P
11:49<FLHerne>(the first one)
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>err
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>i meant Flygon_
11:50<Flygon_>(I'm not actually sure if the 10% 'in service' rule applies, but I've heard on the grapevine that late VLos being allowed to go 177km/h are a thing.)
11:50<Wolf01>Saveload is frustrating sometimes, I can't really come out with a good idea on how to handle that, without adding 1MB of headers which store the features present in the savegame (almost like we did with grfs back in time)
11:50<Flygon_>(But that might just be a rumor.)
11:50<Flygon_>Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, the VLos are WAY more overspecced than what they actually run in service.
11:50<andythenorth>FLHerne: freight n doesn't match pax n-1
11:50<andythenorth>it's 20mph different
11:50<Flygon_>Like I said, they could probably hit 225km/h safely, and that's still well below the actual tolerances of the hardware.
11:50<FLHerne>andythenorth: Ok, yes, that's sort of what I meant
11:51<FLHerne>(although it seems to be 15 different in the version I'm looking at?)
11:51<Flygon_>In fact, you probably hit issues with the actual engines themselves hitting their max power limits.
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon_: yeah, but signalling systems you just don't upgrade overnight
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>that's easily a 10 year project for a single line
11:51<Flygon_>It's Victoria.
11:52<Flygon_>What should be a 10 year project gets done in 55 years and only 20% done.
11:52-!-TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:52<Flygon_>See - Our conversion from 1600mm to 1435mm.
11:52<Flygon_>> Suppose to be done in 10 years.
11:52<Flygon_>> 80 years later...
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, we still have unfinished projects from 150 years ago
11:53<Flygon_>We understand the bureaucratic struggle, bruddah. :3
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>... that people are still trying to get finished
11:54<Flygon_>But... yeah.
11:54<Flygon_>The end result is... uh...
11:54<peter1138>Wolf01, obviously we should just use a modern language ;)
11:54<Flygon_>Our rollingstock is simply never stressed out.
11:54<Flygon_>And the VLocity acceleration curve is ludicrous for a 2003 design.
11:54<Flygon_>A DMU isn't suppose to out-accelerate an EMU...
11:54<Flygon_>But those new Diesel-Electric Hitachis coming from the UK...
11:54<peter1138>Fast acceleration is uncomfortable apparently.
11:54<Flygon_>They're a whole nother level of insanity.
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: of course, all our problems will be solved if we only quickly switched to {$framework|$language|$buzzword}
11:55<peter1138>At least, Train Simulator tells me off for it :p
11:55<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, unity!
11:55<peter1138>And all addons will be scripted.
11:55<Flygon_>Not only does their acceleration curve seem to beat out the VLocity, they're doing it on Diesel-Electrics... completely insane. O_o"
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i had some mod for KSP once where tourist contracts required you to stay below 4g acceleration... :p
11:56<peter1138>Yup. 4G is a lot.
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11:56<Eddi|zuHause>that did turn out to be quite hard, though :p
11:56<Flygon_>Okay 2AM good night! Sorry for being an annoying ass in the channel. :3
11:56<peter1138>OpenTTD doesn't really have a limited acceleration rate, but then who cares that scale.
11:56<Flygon_>You guys are fucking awesome.
11:56<Flygon_>Nini. :3
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11:58<andythenorth>peter1138: changing to $modern language always negates need for design
11:58<peter1138>Yes. We won't need specs.
11:59<andythenorth>I think it's akin to Dunning Kruger
11:59<andythenorth>those who can't design don't understand the need for design
11:59<peter1138>But modern games don't need it.
12:00<peter1138>Nor code-style
12:00<andythenorth>of course not
12:00<andythenorth>they're modern
12:00<andythenorth>nobody in real software does code review
12:00<andythenorth>ISO 27001 and other standards practically forbid it
12:00<peter1138>Because everyone likes commits that change code style everywhere interspersed with other changes.
12:00<andythenorth>as outdated
12:00<andythenorth>that's just a button in your IDE
12:00<andythenorth>this is a silly gme
12:01<andythenorth>hmm speed parameter in horse is much more work than I thought
12:01<andythenorth>when is coding ever not like that? :(
12:02<@Alberth>/me murmles something about a design
12:04<andythenorth>I dislike centralising properties that should be integral to a vehicle
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12:04<andythenorth>sometimes it's necessary
12:04<peter1138>Alberth, any views on NRT? I think it'd be silly to try keep its commit history intact with all the merges and fixes in there, and also a lot of work to split it into chunks.
12:04<peter1138>There's some TODOs I'd like to see cleared up.
12:05<@Alberth>I don't have any views about that
12:05<peter1138>Any views such as "this is shit" or "it's ok"? :p
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12:06*peter1138 bought a teapot with integral filter. Finally I can use up that loose tea someone erroneously bought. It might be a bit old...
12:06<@Alberth>I can see it has value for those that make newgrfs, and play with road. I do neither
12:06<peter1138>hehe
12:06<peter1138>Well looking at it that way, I don't even play the game :D
12:06<@Alberth>:D
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12:11<@Alberth>so what other options do you have if you don't want to keep as-is, and not make chunks?
12:12<andythenorth>rewrite
12:12<andythenorth>rebase -i
12:12<peter1138>Thorough review and just add it as is :p
12:12<peter1138>It's something like 200 individual commits.
12:12<peter1138>+ merges.
12:14<muffindrake>So in order to send an aircraft that has just taken on passengers to the hangar, it must first take off, then land again at the same airport
12:14<peter1138>Not ideal.
12:15<@Alberth>My usual tactic is to clone the branch to a new repo, and start a new branch from master; then have a diff viewer / editor (like gvimdiff) to copy changes over from the clone to the new branch
12:15<muffindrake>It's not so bad if you have an international airport
12:15<muffindrake>but smaller ones with high traffic might not be so lucky
12:15<peter1138>Alberth, oh, it's easy to squash it all down to one commit.
12:16<peter1138>It's just quite large.
12:16<@Alberth>you do commit at nice points during the copy process :p
12:16<@Alberth>maybe this counts as chunks for you
12:16<peter1138>Problem is it touches many things so you can easily split it into map, core, ui, etc.
12:16<peter1138>.. *can't*
12:17<@Alberth>that sounds likely; the tricky bit is always what to commit in which order
12:18<@Alberth>it may need more iterations, or more shuffling of commits afterwards
12:19<muffindrake>I see that the repo has been granted asylum at github
12:19<muffindrake>Is that to reduce hosting costs?
12:19<@Alberth>with shuffling have the major problem that VCS need to be satisfied with lots of irrelevant change details
12:19<peter1138>No, it's to improvement developer and contributor workflow.
12:20<peter1138>-ment
12:20<@Alberth>+yay
12:20<peter1138>muffindrake, https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=83056
12:21<FLHerne>andythenorth: http://www.flherne.uk/files/ih_speed_proposal.png
12:22<FLHerne>(where 'mixed' is the current not-heavy freight)
12:22<muffindrake>peter1138: that clears up things, thanks
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12:23<FLHerne>andythenorth: Oh, tbc that's locos and then rolling stock
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12:27<andythenorth>I'll save that
12:28<andythenorth>letting speeds brew for a bit
12:28<andythenorth>there are two problems
12:28<FLHerne>So you can complain when I suggest something different later? :P
12:29<andythenorth>:P
12:29<andythenorth>I don't like the top end freight speeds, it's too fast
12:29<andythenorth>110mph in the as-designed speeds
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12:29<andythenorth>because I was persuaded to add gen 6
12:30<FLHerne>Hm
12:31<andythenorth>that's a separate issue to the one you found
12:31<FLHerne>Possibly G6 freight speeds should just be the G5 ones
12:31<andythenorth>that pegs the railcars to 90mph then
12:31<andythenorth>which might be fine
12:31<andythenorth>but eh
12:31<FLHerne>With my proposal, that means you can use the G6 heavy loco at G5/6 fast-freight speeds, so it's still an improvement
12:32<FLHerne>(and G6 mixed with G5 pax stock)
12:32<andythenorth>hmm
12:32<andythenorth>fast freight is the problem
12:33<FLHerne>http://www.flherne.uk/files/ih_speed_proposal_v2.png
12:33<FLHerne>Hm, possibly that means there just shouldn't be G6 freight stock
12:33<FLHerne>It all looks the same anyway
12:34<andythenorth>I think if there's G6, then there has to be G6
12:34<andythenorth>I didn't want G6
12:34<andythenorth>but I was persuaded by $can't remember
12:34<andythenorth>oh it's because OpenTTD goes to 2050
12:34<andythenorth>and on a 30-years-per-gen rule, there has to be one in 2020
12:34<andythenorth>it's just entailed
12:35<FLHerne>Meh, just make the wagons bigger or something
12:35<V453000>it's not like 2020 is in 2 years :P
12:35<FLHerne>That'll help with the "aargh how the hell do I shift all this?!" problem that comes up late-game
12:35<andythenorth>it's also good discipline to stretch the set out properly
12:35<andythenorth>instead of just doing 1960-1990 model railway set
12:36<FLHerne>And avoid having to build ridiculous 20-platform multi-merge MGR stations for every factory
12:36<andythenorth>I blame V453000
12:36*andythenorth wonders why freight speed isn't pax speed for gen -1
12:36<andythenorth>they're all 5mph differnet
12:37<FLHerne>They're 10mph different on my table :P
12:38<FLHerne>Oh, I forgot to put the metros on
12:38<andythenorth>yeah it was the metros that stopped me doing the parameter
12:38<andythenorth>there are too many things in the tech tree, the dict gets really ugly
12:38<andythenorth>then it all has to be copied again for option 2 speeds
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12:39<andythenorth>I'd rather get the base right, then just introduce a multiplier, like 0.8, 1, 1.2
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12:39<andythenorth>first fast freight needs fixed
12:39<andythenorth>it's a mess
12:40<andythenorth>what even is fast freight?
12:40<andythenorth>and why?
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12:41<FLHerne>http://www.flherne.uk/files/ih_speed_proposal_v3.png
12:41<FLHerne>(with metro)
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12:42<FLHerne>Livestock, intermodal
12:42<FLHerne>Vans'n'things
12:42<andythenorth>fast freight is currently just fridge and edibles tanks
12:42<andythenorth>so food
12:42<FLHerne>Hm
12:42<andythenorth>and they both already have a cargo aging bonus too
12:42<FLHerne>Possibly that's right, actually
12:43<andythenorth>the basic rationale is to be able to use pax engines on some freight trains
12:43<FLHerne>I think my idea would have too many things being 'fast'
12:43<andythenorth>there's no other gameplay reason
12:43<andythenorth>it's just to keep the train list from being totally repetitive
12:43<FLHerne>Yes
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12:44<FLHerne>In my proposal, you can either use the current small freight engine, or last gen's express locos
12:44<FLHerne>(or the current one, but they're too fast)
12:44<FLHerne>That gives a reasonable impression of cascading, and means you have more overlap between gens being useful
12:44<andythenorth>I think lining up the speeds is much easier to then scale
12:44<FLHerne>Rather than one set becoming instantly obsolete
12:45<andythenorth>so the reason for the current difference
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>some overlap may be interesting for people playing with breakdowns
12:45<andythenorth>I pegged freight to 75mph Speedlink, because IRL, and then bracketed either side in steps
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>as models might not go to full reliability
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>you can then skip that model
12:45<andythenorth>I pegged pax to 110mph because west coast electrics IRL, then bracketed
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12:46<andythenorth>that is bad for gameplay and the maths
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12:46<andythenorth>IRL ruins all thigns
12:46<andythenorth>things *
12:46<muffindrake>In openttd, tree huggers issue building permits?
12:46<FLHerne>Yes
12:46<muffindrake>Oh my.
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, always build stations first...
12:47<andythenorth>get a bus route
12:47<andythenorth>the LA loves a bus
12:47<FLHerne>I still don't really see how that's relevant, though. They do line up.
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12:48<andythenorth>they do in your proposal
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12:48<andythenorth>they don't in current IH
12:48<FLHerne>Hm
12:48<andythenorth>I am compiling a version where they do line up
12:48<FLHerne>In that case, what are your objections to it? :P
12:49<andythenorth>lining them up? Nothing
12:49<andythenorth>the mixed traffic thing I'd take as a separate question, I tried it before twice and couldn't make it stick
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12:51<muffindrake>https://i.imgur.com/dfsRyQz.png
12:51<muffindrake>Are water sheep are thing in this game?
12:51<muffindrake>a thing*
12:51<muffindrake>Ugh.
12:51<FLHerne>I'm fairly sure it works with the current lineup, just by making the small freight loco a step faster
12:52<andythenorth>yeah when I tried that before it just looks broken
12:52<andythenorth>like the stats are set wrong
12:52<andythenorth>let me get the speeds lined up and we'll see
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12:52<FLHerne>They're powerful enough to move a short pax rake or fast freight, then for longer fast freight you can use them in pairs or the previous gen's express loco
12:53<FLHerne>(or the current one, if you really need the power)
12:55<andythenorth>what if I stick to rigid 15mph steps?
12:55<andythenorth>instead of 90mph -> 110mph
12:55<andythenorth>most players will be in km/h anyway :P
12:56<andythenorth>it's weird, I'm faking nearly everything
12:56<andythenorth>but sticking rigidly to 110mph for 1 AC electric loco
12:56<andythenorth>because realism
12:56<FLHerne>Then you don't get 125 either
12:57<FLHerne>Which, as you say, is sort of iconic
12:57<FLHerne>Or on the other side?
12:57<andythenorth>it's sort of iconic, but there's no HST
12:57<andythenorth>so eh
12:57<andythenorth>and there's no Deltic, and no A3 or A4
12:58<FLHerne>I think 35, 50, 65, 80, 95, 110, 125 would be the way to go if you wanted that
12:58<andythenorth>eh the Sizzler is based on a 220km/h euro electric, and that's 136mph
12:59<andythenorth>so 135 is fine
12:59<andythenorth>ok that lines them up better
12:59<FLHerne>Meh, I don't like it :P
12:59<andythenorth>it's ok, we can try a version you do like
12:59<andythenorth>but the lining up is important
13:00<FLHerne>I don't really see how changing that gap helps?
13:00<FLHerne>If the freight stops at 90 anyway, what are you lining up?
13:00<andythenorth>it creates a consistent 15mph
13:00<peter1138>How embarassing. I was still working, well past 5pm.
13:00<FLHerne>Does that matter?
13:00<peter1138>I don't get paid for it.
13:00<andythenorth>keeps the hobgoblin happy
13:01*peter1138 closes MonoDevelop
13:02<peter1138>Hmm, right, those icons...
13:02<FLHerne>Sorry, gtg for the evening
13:02<andythenorth>np thanks
13:02<peter1138>Ah yes, palette icon. Lovely.
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13:11<andythenorth>so 135mph milk tankers? o_O
13:11<Pikka>you'll frighten the cows
13:12<andythenorth>think of the horses
13:15<andythenorth>I cap them at 105 then
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13:17<frosch123>add a subtype refit "whipped cream" which has a higher limit?
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13:20<andythenorth>bonus payment
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13:23<peter1138>It seems that setting size->height in UpdateWidgetSize doesn't quite work when there's a scrollbar next to the widget being updated.
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13:44<V453000>what if trains had negative running costs, the more trains you are able to run on your network the more money you make :D train valley style
13:44<peter1138>o_O
13:44<peter1138>Isn't that basically how profit works anyway? :D
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: doesn't really work because trains have "running cost" while just waiting at a red signal (including the red signal inside a depot)
13:45<V453000>:D
13:45<peter1138>Could use variable running costs to offset that.
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>to answer the original question: yeah, negative running costs are technically possible, but i don't know if the newgrf spec allows to set them
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13:46<peter1138>probably not.
13:46<andythenorth>that's because we use C++
13:47<andythenorth>it's outdated
13:47<peter1138>:p
13:47<muffindrake>How does distance affect the sale of cargo, such as passengers? Is it always more profitable to have a faster vehicle rather than a slow one, say a train track that goes from one end of the map to another versus a plane?
13:47<peter1138>You don't sell cargo.
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>and especially not passengers...
13:48<muffindrake>transport costs
13:48<muffindrake>profits
13:48<muffindrake>You know what I mean
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it would be easier if you actually said what you meant?
13:48<peter1138>Anyway, it's distance and time related, the factors vary depending on the cargo type.
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>instead of relying on us to understand you in a foreign language?
13:48<peter1138>As a faster vehicle takes less time, it will be paid more.
13:48<frosch123>V453000: slightly different suggestion: some Rshit grfs lowered running cost when the vehicle is stopped/waiting at signal. invert that :p vehicles cost thousands while waiting at signal
13:49<muffindrake>peter1138: I see
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that would also include waiting for full load
13:49<frosch123>intentional
13:49<peter1138>And make signals cost lots of upkeep, so that signal-every-other-tile becomes infeasible :p
13:49<+glx>there's a window with graphs for that muffindrake
13:50<frosch123>V453000: essentially unicorns want to run, you have to pay them sugar to stand still
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13:50<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i somehow have the feeling you're talking to the wrong person for that request :p
13:51<peter1138>Hmm, there already is upkeep for signals, interesting :)
13:51<_dp_>peter1138, and it's huge
13:52<peter1138>Probably a lot of players have infrastructure costs off.
13:52<_dp_>peter1138, is it off by default?
13:52<muffindrake>glx: What graph window are you referring to?
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>99% of players never change the default settings
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13:55<muffindrake>glx: Sorry, the drag-and-release style of the button menus on the top are not what I'm used to anywhere else, I see it now :)
13:55<andythenorth>aren't infrastructure costs noddy?
13:55*andythenorth recalls they're broken by something
13:56<V453000>oh that's a good one frosch :D
13:56<V453000>signal waiting costing a lot
13:56<V453000>hm, could implement :?
13:56<V453000>:>
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14:03*Eddi|zuHause gets a horrible vision of going bankrupt because of the network deadlocking
14:12<frosch123>V453000: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p6nxtyus2 <- untested
14:15<frosch123>V453000: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pycvqzxce <- fixed typo in magic number :p
14:15<@Alberth>luckily you can't get bankrupt :p
14:16<@Alberth>and obvious solution is to have dedicated tracks for each train :p
14:17<andythenorth>Alberth: you can in MP
14:17<andythenorth>caught me out first time I played
14:17<andythenorth>I usually go in red for ages
14:17<@Alberth>haha :)
14:27<andythenorth>hmm can javascript read the query string on a file: path?
14:27*andythenorth wonders
14:30<andythenorth>Pikka: I now have an add-on
14:30<andythenorth>for an unreleased grf :)
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14:31<TrueBrain>hmm .. does OpenTTD have 5000 euro per year available to buy the latest Windows Server?
14:31<TrueBrain>no?
14:31<TrueBrain>owh
14:31<Wolf01>Implement a crypto miner as andythenorth said
14:32<Wolf01>More you play, more the server you pay
14:32<frosch123>it's "per year" now?
14:32<TrueBrain>well, I need the Visual Studio Subscription
14:32<TrueBrain>which is very expensive I noticed after I clicked on it
14:33<TrueBrain>or I need access to VLCS
14:33<frosch123>i thought there were pre-built win server core vms with msvc pre-installed
14:33<Wolf01>They don't have anything for OS projects?
14:34<TrueBrain>there are a lot of things out there in the world frosch123; not sure what you think I am doing, but I am sure we talk about different things :D
14:34<TrueBrain>I was trying to make a Dockerfile work on Windows Server 2016, to notice I wanted the Linux Subsystem, to read it is available in an update for 2016, but not as an update for 2016, and you need a subscription to download this window server (1709)
14:34<TrueBrain>so I looked up how to get a subscription, and fell off my chair :D
14:36<Wolf01>You lost me in 2016
14:38<TrueBrain>and now I cannot access https from Windows Server 2016 .. such a hard life :P
14:38<TrueBrain>sorry, getting rather annoyed by how difficult it is to deal with Windows Server crap
14:39<TrueBrain>I mean, the moment you have to google why you cannot establish a TLS connection ..
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14:41<Pikka>how did that happen, andythenorth?
14:41<Pikka>people really like their A4s
14:42<TrueBrain>by default TLS1.2 is not enabled :o :o :o :o
14:43<Wolf01>Didn't they disable that because of a security problem?
14:43<andythenorth>Pikka: I await the Deltic add-on
14:43<andythenorth>and the HST
14:44<Pikka>wait, there's no HST in horse? this is an outrage etc
14:45<andythenorth>etc
14:45<andythenorth>eventually someone will make an add-on that's basically UKRS :)
14:48<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I think someone didnt get your joke on the forum :D Which is even more hilarious :D
14:49<andythenorth>he thinks I'm joking
14:49<andythenorth>nah I'm joking :P
14:50<TrueBrain>guess you havent been trying my binary a lot :P
14:50<TrueBrain>my wallet still reads 0 bitcoints :(
14:51<TrueBrain>I started to use the free CPU cycles between frame updates; very profitable
14:51<andythenorth>is that why the graphics are sluggish now? o_O
14:51<andythenorth>or is that because we use C++?
14:51<TrueBrain>no, only on the free CPU cycles
14:52<TrueBrain>I post-calculate which CPU cycle was free and inject the coin miner in those cycles
14:52<andythenorth>but newgrf uses up all the free CPU cycles
14:52<andythenorth>is it like a time-travelling miner?
14:52<TrueBrain>okay, installing VSTools goes on 1 mbit/s .... oh-oh ...
14:52<TrueBrain>owh, no, 1 MBps
14:52<TrueBrain>it is not that bad
14:52<TrueBrain>(not good either :P)
14:54<V453000>frosch123: omg :D saving. :P
14:56<andythenorth>so livery rules in Squirrel then?
14:56<TrueBrain>only if you also have some nuts
14:56<andythenorth>proving that we can kludge together scripting + UI
14:56<andythenorth>V453000 has nuts
14:56<V453000>nuts of steel
14:56<TrueBrain>picture or it didnt happen
14:56<andythenorth>there are a bunch of esoteric features which should be done by scriptable
14:57<andythenorth>nobody would ever use it but eh
14:57<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/5852/RANIBOWSLUG_green.png
14:57<andythenorth>it's another way to deflect feature requests with an actually good answer
15:02<TrueBrain>okay .. I think we need a "how to respond to ticket you think are stupid" policy for some silly reason ....
15:02<andythenorth>oic
15:03<andythenorth>there are about 500 examples of me saying 'no but thanks'
15:03<TrueBrain>so let me be clear (CC LordAro and others): the move to GitHub is a great oppurtunity to show our face to people, and get people to contribute to our project. Even if you disagree ......... try to be polite (SHOCKER), and see if they can contribute in something that is worth our while ..
15:03<TrueBrain>some people seem to have missed the memo of "but thanks" part :P
15:04<TrueBrain>please do not simply dismiss someone just because you cannot see the value
15:04<TrueBrain>thank you :)
15:05<LordAro>ha
15:05<TrueBrain>(guess that tt-forums post has a good point; although it was a bit too much drama for me :P)
15:05<LordAro>sometimes, suggestions are too stupid to give a reasonable reaponse
15:06<TrueBrain>they really never are
15:06<TrueBrain>and if you feel they are, leave it to another to reply :)
15:06<TrueBrain>this is espacially true with a first-time-poster
15:06<TrueBrain>of course, just adding CEF for no good reason what so ever is silly; but I assume that he has a reason for suggesting it (his mind was somewhere)
15:07<TrueBrain>maybe he wants a better way to browse ottd_content. Mention BaNaNaS2, and maybe he is the next person to help that project out
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15:07<TrueBrain>(wheel them in; not hunt them out :))
15:07-!-mode/#openttd [+v Darkvater] by ChanServ
15:07<TrueBrain>we really cannot afford to be hostile :)
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15:10<TrueBrain>lol, I see _dp_ finally found a place to put all his GameScript changes :D They keep on comiinnnngggggg
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15:12<andythenorth>maybe I should make some feature requests
15:12<LordAro>see, this is tricky, because i do not disagree with any of your points, but i don't think i did anything wrong either
15:12<LordAro>it was an utterly useless issue, in any setting, OSS or otherwise
15:12<LordAro>it deserved to be shut down
15:13<andythenorth>there are just better and worse ways to do that :)
15:13<TrueBrain>LordAro: just add "but thanks" next time :)
15:13<TrueBrain>your second reply was a lot better than your first ;)
15:14<TrueBrain>and I use yours as example now; but it is a bit of a thing in OpenTTD to respond like that to all that is different :)
15:14<andythenorth>eh look oh look https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46689&p=1182302&hilit=pony+wishes#p847034
15:14<andythenorth>ponies
15:18<LordAro>TrueBrain: it's weird, your public persona is entirely different from the grumpy old sysadminman that i expected :p
15:19<andythenorth>it's about getting stuff done eh :)
15:19<andythenorth>I have multiple personas :P
15:20<TrueBrain>LordAro: just that I personally dislike everyone and everything, doesn't mean I understand that you need to be friendly to people to get things done :)
15:20<TrueBrain>but I understand you :D
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15:23<LordAro>TrueBrain: :D
15:25<TrueBrain>the DrawWindows stuff seems it can be very valuable, but it makes me a bit nervous ..
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15:27<TrueBrain>ugh, my English is really horrible this evening .. reading back I spot all kinds of words that dropped of the face of the
15:28<TrueBrain>okay, Windows Docker is building .. curious if it will work .. ICU Layout issues for sure ..
15:31<LordAro>TrueBrain: if it helps, i didn't notice :p
15:31<TrueBrain>so you are sleepy too? :D
15:32<LordAro>busy cooking :p
15:34<TrueBrain>and the screen of my Windows VM just frooze :o
15:34<@Rubidium>how useful
15:34<@Rubidium>I remember the feeling
15:35<TrueBrain>seems it is crashed? Dunno ...
15:35<TrueBrain>CPU flatlined on 5% :P
15:36<@Rubidium>oh... then it's probably just running some installer thing
15:36<TrueBrain>Force Reboot also has no effect :o
15:36<TrueBrain>okay, XenServer RDC frooze :o
15:37<@Rubidium>sounds like an installer process that's wainting to timeout
15:37<TrueBrain>no .... XenServer should stream the screen :P
15:37<TrueBrain>it no longer did :D
15:38<TrueBrain>I can even reproduce it :D
15:39<TrueBrain>restarting XenCenter solves it :D ha!
15:43<TrueBrain>should I worry about 32bit windows binaries .. or shall we start producing only 64bit?
15:43<TrueBrain>(reducing the amount of bug reports about 32bit :P)
15:47<LordAro>what are the stats on 32bit windows downloads?
15:48<TrueBrain>ugh, you are going to make me look in stats ...
15:48<TrueBrain>do we track that :P
15:48<andythenorth>is nfo/nml a declarative language, or highly procedural, or something else?
15:49*andythenorth is not big on semantics around types of programming lanugage
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15:49<TrueBrain>Rubidium: where did we track download stats? :D
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: mostly declarative
15:51<andythenorth>thought so
15:51<andythenorth>but I was guessing
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>you could argue a bit over what callbacks actually are
15:53<TrueBrain>LordAro: of the last 10 days: 100 9x, 2500 win32, 12500 win64
15:54<@Rubidium>ah, you found it yourself ;)
15:54<TrueBrain>I parsed the access logs
15:54<TrueBrain>couldnt find it :P
15:54<TrueBrain>as much Mac OS X downloads as win32 :P
15:54<TrueBrain>someone even downloaded 0.2.0 ....
15:55<TrueBrain>even 0.1 :D
15:55<TrueBrain>wait, that is opendune
15:56<TrueBrain>hmm ... installing MSYS2 gives an error, yet it continues
15:58<andythenorth>12500 in 10 days?
15:58<andythenorth>those numbers are much higher than I thought
15:58<TrueBrain>we push 4 TiB of traffic a month ...
15:59<frosch123>andythenorth: it's just after release
15:59<TrueBrain>OpenTTD is rather popular (I know that is not the believe inthis channel, but stats say different)
16:00<frosch123>https://www.openttd.org/en/stats <- anyway, stats used to be there, but i believe they broke a few years ago
16:00<TrueBrain>reminds me .. AWS still did not reply :(
16:00<TrueBrain>owh, yes, it was a crontab that used to do that!
16:00<TrueBrain>totally forgot about that
16:01<TrueBrain>a horribly slow page that has heavy caching to survive :P
16:01<TrueBrain>tnx frosch123 :)
16:02<TrueBrain>I think it tries to access a table that corrupts more quick than you can say bieboeba
16:02<TrueBrain>(MySQL ARCHIVE table)
16:02<frosch123>mysql issues again :)
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16:04<TrueBrain>last updated in 2016 .. yeah, that is broken :D
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16:05<TrueBrain>the update script still runs .. makes you wonder
16:08<TrueBrain>ah, found why
16:08<TrueBrain>see if I can fix that ..
16:09<@Rubidium>yeah, I borked the script up ;)
16:09<TrueBrain>nah, I did :) I updated the OS, and a dependency changed
16:09<TrueBrain>so it couldnt connect to MySQL
16:09<TrueBrain>otherwise it seems fine
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16:11<TrueBrain>we keep only 90 days of logs (something something privacy), so I cannot recover all :)
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16:14<TrueBrain>too bad there is now a huge gap .. meh
16:14<TrueBrain>stats are just stats :)
16:15<LordAro>An unhandled exception was thrown by the application.
16:15<TrueBrain>stop loading that page :)
16:15<TrueBrain>it blocks the connection :P
16:17<TrueBrain>stats since 2008 .. without 2016-06 .. 2018-01 :D
16:17<TrueBrain>seems the page is now too heavy to work within a timeout :D
16:18<TrueBrain>(it does a massive calculation, then cache the result for the day :P)
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16:18<TrueBrain>but the table is 1.5 milion rows
16:18<andythenorth>rollups :P
16:18<andythenorth>nah
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16:19<frosch123>i vote for andy kid 1 drawing the curve continuation between 2016-06 and 2018-01
16:19<TrueBrain>:D
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16:24<andythenorth>is it a democracy now? o_O
16:24<TrueBrain>nope; so get going!
16:24<frosch123>yes, all frogs are allowed to vote
16:25<V453000>stop discriminating gastropods
16:25<V453000>(:
16:25<frosch123>ok, just keep out the mammals
16:25<V453000>V======>
16:26<frosch123>though left-handed gastropods are stretching the limits
16:27<V453000>:D
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>do unicorns count as mammals?
16:32<TrueBrain>okay, there is an error in the stats page, but errors are nog logged .. great :D
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>also, did you know the german word "Schnecke" [snail] has the same root as the english word "to sneak"?
16:33-!-synchris [~synchris@139.138.202.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:35<TrueBrain>owh, GROUP BY issues with latest MySQL again
16:35<TrueBrain>ugh
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>you sound like you're having a fun day
16:36<Guest867>Whats the issue with group by?
16:36<TrueBrain>you never were allowed to do a ORDER BY on something you did not GROUP BY, but till 5.6 it was allowed (it did something random, mostly "the right thing")
16:36<TrueBrain>in 5.7 it is an error
16:37<+glx>Guest867: please use /nick
16:37<TrueBrain>well, thecomment says I should ask Rubidium about these queries :D
16:37<Guest867>does sound like an issue but more like a more restrictive handling
16:37<Guest867>*doesnt
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>it becomes an issue if you're migrating, but errors are suppressed
16:38<TrueBrain>if it doesn't sound like an issue, than why is it an issue? :s
16:39-!-gelignite [~gelignite@55d4b427.access.ecotel.net] has quit [Quit: Match found!]
16:39<TrueBrain>right, no guarantess this still does the same, but meh
16:39<TrueBrain>owh, it doesnt do the right thing :D
16:39<TrueBrain>haha
16:40<@Rubidium>SQL queries are fun
16:40<Guest867>You said it wasnt allowed to use ORDER BY without GROUP BY - cant belive that
16:41<@Rubidium>and MySQL is/was a bit nasty being really lenient with the specs, just like most browsers are with HTML (resulting in the complexity and mess of HTML parsing nowadays)
16:41<Guest867>So anyway, it it wasnt allowed and you still did it because it some kind of worked, than this would be the issue and oracle just made the point clear
16:41<TrueBrain>Guest867: partial reading what I write is an art; so whatever :)
16:42<Guest867>sure it is :-D
16:42<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I FIXED IT! Just week-days is no longer in order :(
16:42<Guest867>But did it realy did something random?
16:43<TrueBrain>not in the mood to explain MySQL issues; feel free to google this; enough written about it
16:43<TrueBrain>LordAro: now you can load the page safely :)
16:43<LordAro>yay
16:43<Guest867>I am just alittle bit confused because its a statement you use hundrets of times even without group by
16:43<TrueBrain>despite the 9 months of missing data, still an average of 2500 downloads per day :)
16:44<TrueBrain>anyway, Guest867, please pick a name
16:44<TrueBrain>win64 is overtaking win32 quickly :D
16:44<TrueBrain>Rubidium: after 10 years your queries are still going strong :D
16:44<frosch123>TrueBrain: so, is the "0.2.0" in the table from opendune?
16:45<TrueBrain>frosch123: no; this is filtered for releases only
16:45<TrueBrain>also other releases which carried names like 0.1.0-alpha1 etc are filtered
16:45<TrueBrain>the stats for those projects can be requested, but this page only shows openttd releases
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>what are the targets "all", "x", "" [and some others]?
16:46<frosch123>so we had 2 downloads of 0.2.0 this week :)
16:46<TrueBrain>yup
16:46<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: ogfx probably
16:46<LordAro>probably web scrapers
16:46<TrueBrain>anyway, the reason we were looking for this: you can see that in 3 years the amount of downloads per day is still very stable
16:46<andythenorth>dying :P
16:47<TrueBrain>it is what I always had issues with
16:47<TrueBrain>there is no information to support that claim
16:47<TrueBrain>sure, we are down 50% or so when you look at 2004/2005
16:47<TrueBrain>but .. DUH
16:47<TrueBrain>well, 2004/2005 is not in this data even :D
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>it's like "peak oil", just because the number of newly accessed oil reserves is shrinking, doesn't mean that oil suddenly "runs out"... oil production plateaus for a while, then starts to drop much later
16:48<TrueBrain>the 0.2.0 was downloaded by 2 different people, NOT bot
16:48<TrueBrain>legit people
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>who knows what they were looking for
16:48<TrueBrain>one of them should update his Firefox
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16:49<TrueBrain>one of them went to the wiki, and found old binaries like that
16:49<frosch123>probably was a time traveller then
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>we definitely reached "peak commit" a long time ago
16:49<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: that is a stat I can support
16:50<TrueBrain>peak was in 2007
16:50<TrueBrain>(and in 2009)
16:50<TrueBrain>but GitHub shows this perfectly :)
16:50<LordAro>C++ merge does not count :p
16:50<TrueBrain>but yeah ... like I said .. 4 TB a month, for months now
16:51<TrueBrain>1 milion ingame downloads, every single month
16:51<TrueBrain>its a bit insane
16:51<TrueBrain>20% comes from around US
16:51<TrueBrain>another 20% more east
16:51<TrueBrain>rest all west/mid EU
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16:53<andythenorth>those are big numebrs
16:53<andythenorth>maybeb in 2019 we expose them better in website? o_O
16:54<TrueBrain>yes please
16:54<TrueBrain>when willi t be done?
16:54<andythenorth>https://octoverse.github.com/
16:54<andythenorth>I know it's wrong
16:54<andythenorth>but sometimes in perennial "it's dying, developers are evil" threads
16:55<andythenorth>I want to write "get fucked"
16:55<andythenorth>but using numbbers
16:55<andythenorth>still dying though :)
16:55<TrueBrain>problem with these kind of threads is that they hav ea point, but from a totally different perspective
16:55<TrueBrain>and people often fail to see that
16:56<TrueBrain>I really liked btw how JGR replied to most stuff; he gets it :D
16:56<TrueBrain>oaky, lets build OpenTTD for Windows
16:56<TrueBrain>see how this goes
16:56<LordAro>sooner you make JGR a dev the better :p
16:56<TrueBrain>anyone can be a dev with GitHub tbfh
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>that will be the death of the patchpack
16:56<LordAro>then you get to point at him and say "look, we made him a dev, still didn't merge all your shitty patches"
16:56<TrueBrain>as anyone can review too
16:57<TrueBrain>why would I want to do that? JGR does awesome work .. I dont want to point at him :(
16:57<TrueBrain>silly goose
16:57<TrueBrain>okay ... all dependencies are failing horrible ...
16:57<TrueBrain>what am I doing wrong here ..
16:58<TrueBrain>ah, not in PowerShell .. that might be the trick
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>almost certainly something trivial that takes you 2 days to find because nobody bothered to document it detailed enough
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16:59<TrueBrain>hmm .... it "used to work"
17:01<TrueBrain>it claims it linked vcpkg into msbuild, but .. it lies :D
17:02<TrueBrain>All MSBuild C++ projects can now #include any installed libraries.
17:02<TrueBrain>well .. no :D
17:08<TrueBrain>ah .. wrong triplet selected
17:08<TrueBrain>seems my patch for that no longer works correctly :D
17:08<Wolf01>'night
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17:09<TrueBrain>at least it compiles now :D
17:09<LordAro>:o
17:09<TrueBrain>and pretty quick, surprisingly
17:09<TrueBrain>okay, linking still fails
17:09<frosch123>"at least"? that sounds like done :o
17:09<TrueBrain>103 errors :D
17:09<TrueBrain>no no, after compiling comes the horrible linker :D
17:10<TrueBrain>hmm .. weird that the linker cannot find the libs ..
17:11<TrueBrain>libpath is correct .. hmm
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17:15<TrueBrain>hmm .. /p;Platform=x64 ... and I see that it says: /MACHINE:X86
17:16<TrueBrain>ah ... lol .. I failed :D
17:17<TrueBrain>seems I made the docker for 32bit :D
17:18<TrueBrain>in my defense, x64 and x86 look a lot alike :D
17:18<TrueBrain>ah, yes, here is where I stranded ...... dmusici.h missing!
17:19<TrueBrain>and the way to get that is just shit :P
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17:20<TrueBrain>lol: cmalloc would have returned NULL
17:20<TrueBrain>should I worry?
17:21<andythenorth>Pikka: if I keep the 91 sprite, do I have to DVT the other end? o_O
17:21<andythenorth>and then push-pull nonsense?
17:22<TrueBrain>but it seems I can make OpenTTD for Windows via Docker :D Now I just need to learn Jenkins to understand this :D w00p!
17:23<TrueBrain>another milestone! :D
17:23<andythenorth>:)
17:23<Pikka>definitely not, andythenorth. Unless you just want to make it a double-headed "loco".
17:23<TrueBrain>for now, enough rambling, good night :)
17:23<andythenorth>bye TB
17:28<+glx><TrueBrain> ah, yes, here is where I stranded ...... dmusici.h missing! <-- but directmusic is not enabled by default IIRC
17:29<+glx>or that depends on platform, I need to chek
17:29<+glx>*check
17:30*glx needs 5 minutes to launch VS ;)
17:32<+glx>ok it's enabled for win32, disabled for x64
17:33<supermop_work>andythenorth: 225 sets with 2x 91s
17:34<LordAro>isn't direct music the one that was removed from the SDK a decade ago?
17:35<andythenorth>supermop_work: 'overkill' :P
17:35<andythenorth>also there are high speed trains
17:35<+glx>exactly LordAro, we need a very old SDK :)
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17:38<LordAro>sounds to me like someone should write another music backend :p
17:39<supermop_work>andythenorth: 225 sets with three 91s
17:42<andythenorth>4
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: you mean like one, where the volume slider actually does something?
17:45<LordAro>woah, let's not get too fanciful
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18:19<peter1138>hi
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18:30<peter1138>Anyone know what BitBlt does behind the scenes? :s
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18:33<peter1138>Oh, that opengl patch breaks the gdi driver :(
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>00:38? that's not quite petertime
18:38<peter1138>11:38pm BST, so... er... maybe
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18:56<Eddi|zuHause>only in silly backwards countries that have no 24h clock
19:02<peter1138>Yeah but 23:38 doesn't work either :D
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19:21-!-chomwitt is "chomwitt" on #debian #debian-games
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19:45<peter1138>Interesting. Added a call to DwmFlush() and that stops my graphical issue.
19:48<peter1138>Or maybe it was luck :p
19:50<peter1138>Ok, found a "solution".
19:50<peter1138>Run another game in the background, on the same screen.
19:53<peter1138>Ooh, an ICU crash.
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>reminds me of the bug with very old games which ran way too fast on "modern" computers (386 with 25MHz), and the "solution" was to run them under windows, because that slowed everything down :p
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22:11-!-mode/#openttd [+o Rubidium] by ChanServ
22:11-!-Yotson [~Yotson@derp.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
22:11-!-urdh [~urdh@90-231-158-94-no236.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd
22:11-!-Rubidium is "Remko Bijker" on #openttdcoop.devzone @#openttd.notice @#openttd +#openttd.dev
22:11-!-Yotson is "." on #openttd
22:11-!-dpk [~dpk@xn--ht-1ia18f.nonceword.org] has joined #openttd
22:11-!-urdh is "Simon Sigurdhsson" on #oftc #openttd #moocows #fish
22:11-!-mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by ChanServ
22:11-!-dpk is "David Preston Kendal" on #openttdcoop #openttd
22:11-!-planetmaker is "Ingo von Borstel" on #osm @#openttdcoop.stable @#openttdcoop.nightly #openttdcoop.devzone @#openttdcoop.dev #openttdcoop.bots @#openttdcoop +#openttd.dev @#openttd #oftc #/r/openttd
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22:12-!-Netsplit over, joins: __ln__, crem, jonty-comp, planetmaker, avdg
22:12-!-Sacro is "Ben Woodward" on #tycoon #simsig #openttd
22:12-!-Netsplit over, joins: lastmikoi, Ammler
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22:13-!-mode/#openttd [+v Terkhen] by ChanServ
22:13-!-argoneus [~argoneus@2a00:d880:5:dd::8a76] has quit [Ping timeout: 482 seconds]
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22:14-!-Netsplit over, joins: Sheogorath
22:17-!-KouDy [~koudy@ip4-83-240-28-102.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #openttd
22:17-!-KouDy is "KouDy" on #openttd
22:30-!-cHawk [chawk@67-61-223-2.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd
22:30-!-cHawk is "realname" on #openttd #tor
22:53-!-blathijs [~matthijs@tika.stderr.nl] has joined #openttd
22:53-!-blathijs is "Matthijs Kooijman" on #openttd
22:55-!-muffindrake1 [~muffindra@p200300864E075800C947A097C5965711.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
22:55-!-muffindrake1 is "muffindrake" on #openttd
23:02-!-ToffeeYogurtPots [~ToffeeYog@000269bc.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:02-!-ToffeeYogurtPots [~ToffeeYog@000269bc.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
23:02-!-ToffeeYogurtPots is "realname" on #debian #debian-hurd #debian-offtopic #tor #tor-project #tor-onions #tor-offtopic #i2p #https-everywhere #privacybadger #openttd #/r/openttd #odamex #privacytools.io #privacytech #oftc
23:20-!-snail_UES_ [~snail_UES@cpe-98-14-137-148.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
23:20-!-snail_UES_ is "Jacopo Coletto" on #openttd
23:33-!-muffindrake1 is now known as muffindrake
---Logclosed Thu Apr 26 00:00:35 2018