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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-04-27

---Logopened Fri Apr 27 00:00:47 2018
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00:08-!-Wacko1976 is "The Chat Cool People Use" on #openttd #/r/openttd
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02:08<peter1138>mr andy
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02:16-!-nielsm is "Niels Martin hansen" on #openttd #tycoon
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02:19<andythenorth>buy menu sprites eh
02:19<andythenorth>maybe I can use sprite layers o_O
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04:00<peter1138>He's back
04:00<andythenorth>yes he's back
04:00<andythenorth>back again
04:03<TrueBrain>but now the question is ..... for how long!
04:04<LordAro>place your bets
04:07<andythenorth>until the next job I have to do
04:09<peter1138>Damn, at some point I think I accidentally disabled password ssh logins on my VM at home.
04:09<peter1138>Can't get on :p
04:09<peter1138>That would explain why when I was trying to turn off password logins on a server the other day, the changes got lost. "lol"
04:15<nielsm>re. commit messages, can someone elaborate on "change" vs "codechange" vs "update" vs "prepare" ?
04:16<TrueBrain>haha, cool, I can command a Windows Docker from linux :) Okay, that makes shit easier :)
04:16<TrueBrain>nielsm: easiest is to look through the history to get an idea for that
04:16<TrueBrain>but Codechange are changes that only affect code; no function change what-so-ever
04:16<TrueBrain>(refactoring, moving, etc)
04:17<TrueBrain>Update is rarely for code, mostly for shit like languages, readmes, etc
04:17<TrueBrain>Prepare I have never seen use
04:17<TrueBrain>Change is for when there is a function change to your code change .. give or take
04:17<TrueBrain>not that black/white
04:18<nielsm>here I have a rev that basically just adds some parameters to a function prototype (in all the music drivers) to prepare for an actual feature add, which is only possible in the new win32 driver
04:18<nielsm>does that even warrant a separate commit?
04:19<TrueBrain>commits should be a logic separation between changes so the reviewer can easily and trivially understand the change
04:19<TrueBrain>up to you to fill in that line
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04:23-!-Eddi|zuHause is "Johannes E. Krause" on #openttd
04:47<peter1138>Problem with that particular change is the added parameters are only relevant to the one driver.
04:47<peter1138>I do wonder if we should somehow replace all those music drivers with a built-in synth.
04:47<peter1138>It would be a consistent experience then.
04:48<peter1138>Mind you, someone would then complain that they can't use their expensive hardware synth :p
04:50<nielsm>I would
04:50<nielsm>for one!
04:50<nielsm>I got a roland sc-55, ie. the synth the music was written for, and hell do I want to use it
04:51<nielsm>(in fact a large part of the reason I even started doing these changes was that I had trouble getting either win32 or dmusic driver to use it)
04:51<nielsm>(on win10)
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05:06<LordAro> also here
05:06<peter1138>On Linux MIDI is especially awkward.
05:06<peter1138>Windows at least has the default soft-synth.
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05:15-!-FLHerne is "Francis Herne" on #/r/openttd #kernelnewbies #openttd
05:26<andythenorth>can I be arsed to script buy menu sprites?
05:26<andythenorth>or shall I just draw them :P
05:26<peter1138>Does it need anything special?
05:27<andythenorth>well I generate the spritesheets
05:27<peter1138>Doesn't the game already just use the correct sprite? :p
05:27<andythenorth>oh this is just for articulated vehicles
05:27<peter1138>You're going to say "HAHAHA SO NAIVE" aren't you
05:27<andythenorth>articulated vehicles don't exist in buy menu is it
05:27<peter1138>Script if you can, a repeatable automated build is nice.
05:27<peter1138>Jenkinsfile it etc :p
05:27<andythenorth>I tried it with sprite layers
05:28<andythenorth>but I don't know if they work in purchase menu
05:28<andythenorth>I could read src I guess
05:28<andythenorth>I automate a bit, see what happens
05:28<Sacro>TrueBrain: how'd you do windows docker in Linux?
05:30<TrueBrain>with a Windows Docker host ofc :)
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05:55<nielsm>git diff
05:55<nielsm>uh wrong window
05:55<TrueBrain>just happy you didnt stash us
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06:04<LordAro>git reset --hard
06:13<TrueBrain>I still wonder about the DrawWindows patch .. we now have 2 functions that do something with the real-time ..
06:13<TrueBrain>that feels off
06:13<TrueBrain>guess I need to install MSVC after all :P
06:15<peter1138>It makes my graphical glitching worse :(
06:16<TrueBrain>yeah, we dont have stuff like vsync
06:16<TrueBrain>and 66 Hz is a very odd frequency
06:16<TrueBrain>so it is very likely it is an issue for a lot of people honestly
06:16<TrueBrain>current code is also broken, just less likely to show :)
06:17<peter1138>Yes, GDI can't do vsync.
06:17<peter1138>SDL may be able to, certainly with OpenGL.
06:18<TrueBrain>normally it is not that relevant .. double-buffer and let it up to the driver itself
06:18<TrueBrain>but it is also weird that Window stuff is influenced by FF
06:18<peter1138>Yes, would be nice to replace the stuff that uses game ticks incorrectly.
06:18<peter1138>There's quite a lot that does it.
06:19<peter1138>FF should just make the game faster, not all the windows :p
06:19<peter1138>We don't enable any double-buffering.
06:19<TrueBrain>so there is an isuse :D
06:20<TrueBrain>dunno .. feels this needs another approach, but I cannot really put my finger on it
06:20<peter1138>Well, our use of GDI should be but it seems not to be.
06:20<TrueBrain>not having touched OpenTTD in years has something to do with that :D
06:20<peter1138>My mouse cursor disappears if I move it too fast.
06:20<TrueBrain>this patch just makes it much more obvious there is more broken
06:20<peter1138>It's temporal of course, everything in the backing buffer is fine.
06:21<peter1138>Yes, exactly.
06:21<TrueBrain>but it is hard to say what to fix, without looking into it myself
06:21<TrueBrain>and I hate asking others: please look into this, without giving any clues :D
06:21<peter1138>I wondered how about switching to DirectX/OpenGL, rendering to a surface and then swapping that.
06:22<TrueBrain>you have been talking about OpenGL ever since I met you :D
06:22<TrueBrain>having proper OpenGL/DirectX would solve a few issues left and right
06:22<TrueBrain>also shit like fullscreen, borderless, resolutions, etc
06:22<TrueBrain>I cannot believe that if I go fullscreen, it switches to 640x480
06:22<TrueBrain>that is such a 1990 thing to do
06:23<TrueBrain>all modern games switch to your native resoltion
06:23<TrueBrain>meh .. first lunch time
06:23<peter1138>Yeah but my initial OpenGL stuff was, well, learning about it.
06:23<peter1138>And based on simple tutorials which did everything wrong as well.
06:27<andythenorth>maybe we could get modern
06:27<andythenorth>for 2001
06:28<peter1138>Although OpenRCT2's OpenGL renderer also appears to use the renderer to draw individual sprites as well.
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06:29<peter1138>michi has a nearly working OpenGL patch
06:29<peter1138>It did crash for me :p
06:33<andythenorth>automate buy menu sprites more?
06:33<andythenorth>or exercise and go shopping? :P
06:38<andythenorth>hmm, liveries could be controlled by invisible wagons
06:38<andythenorth>add them to the rear of the train
06:38<andythenorth>'livery 1' etc
06:39<andythenorth>this idea came from a stupid bug I just found in Horse :)
06:48<nielsm>just make sure the invisible wagon is sufficiently tangible inside the depot, so you can actually remove it again
06:50<andythenorth>it could flash animated colours :P
06:56<peter1138>Why's my train taking ages to load?
06:59<nielsm>you need to upgrade it with an SSD
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07:04-!-tokai is "Christian Rosentreter" on +#openttd
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07:18<TrueBrain>the moment that the Antimalware starts to scan your docker over and over again :D
07:20<TrueBrain>15 GB of Docker image to run MSVC .... ugh
07:20<TrueBrain>10 GB is the base image
07:21<peter1138>btw, I'd say changes to use _realtime_ticks for ui stuff should be a separate commit
07:21<TrueBrain>I think the solution is to take out realtime_ticks stuff, and put them all in a single function or something
07:22<TrueBrain>so it is clear what is based on the realtime
07:22<TrueBrain>and what is based on the gametime
07:22<TrueBrain>than think hard about what is currently where
07:22<peter1138>Eh, the code is spread around in window functions.
07:22<peter1138>Using window OnTick() events.
07:22<TrueBrain>as if we can split out what is realtime and what is not, it becomes more clear what is going on
07:22<peter1138>Simplest might be OnRealtimeTick()
07:23<TrueBrain>sounds good to me
07:23<nielsm>yeah that could be useful for some things
07:24<nielsm>when I was still trying to fix things in the dmusic driver I ran into not wanting to update the volume control value too often and kind of wanted to throttle it based on real time but didn't find a good method
07:24<nielsm>(this is of course moot now)
07:26<peter1138>And then midi volume on linux does nothing ;(
07:28<nielsm>yeah what I had to do to control midi volume in dmusic was manually keep track of individual channel volumes and inject channel volume change messages to scale everything
07:28<nielsm>same thing the new win32 driver does actually
07:28<nielsm>(and same thing the driver in dos ttd did)
07:30<peter1138>So should we start parsing and processing the MIDI ourselves?
07:30<peter1138>That might end up making things simpler. extmidi is a bad concept.
07:30<nielsm>of course if you inject too many volume change messages in a midi stream getting sent to a hardware synth over a classic ~38 kbps midi connection you risk running out of bandwidth
07:30<nielsm>so I had to throttle it
07:30<peter1138>nielsm, that's easy, only set the volume on mouse up, or every 0.25 seconds or so
07:30<peter1138>er... so throttle it, exactly as you did :p
07:31<peter1138>mouse up only is annoying, some games do that for sliders :(
07:31<peter1138>You know know what you're going get!
07:32<nielsm>you want to process midi yourself? I got you covered :D
07:34<TrueBrain>right, guess it is time to install MSVC build tools ..
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07:39<LordAro>-rw-r----- 1 root adm 5270022379820 Apr 27 10:33 error.log.1
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07:39<TrueBrain>okay, the win32 video driver is a bit weird .. there is a for (;;) {} with no break, yet there is code below it
07:39<nielsm>better compress it
07:40<TrueBrain>pretty sure that code is never going to be called ...
07:42<peter1138>I... don't see that.
07:43<TrueBrain>the main loop?
07:43<TrueBrain>_draw_threaded if statement
07:44<TrueBrain>line 1329 in win32_v.cpp
07:44<peter1138>Ah right, I see what you mean now.
07:44<TrueBrain>that is some sweet dead-code right there
07:45<peter1138>There's a return which should be a break.
07:46<TrueBrain>hmm .. CLion really wants a CMake before it wants to work
07:46<TrueBrain>meh :)
07:47<TrueBrain>owh well, enough for today, going to enjoy the weather for a bit :)
07:47<peter1138>It's raining :(
07:47*andythenorth tries to use tab key to speed up compile
07:48<peter1138>I assume, like Minecraft, you all have the same weather...
07:48<LordAro>lots of rain here
07:48<peter1138>Simutrans has a day/night cycle. There's a minute of game time when you can see fuck all.
07:48<peter1138>Useful feature that.
07:49<andythenorth>we could map the palette to 1?
07:49<andythenorth>probably great
07:50<andythenorth>the upside of automation is that it saves loads of time
07:50<andythenorth>the downside is that it automates adding bugs :P
07:50<peter1138>At least the bugs are consistent.
07:51<andythenorth>there is that
07:51<andythenorth>I just wonder if this is wise :P
07:51<andythenorth>"probably fine"
07:53<andythenorth>BBLs, tesco
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08:28<nielsm>hmm I thought all my commit messages should be good now, what's it complaining about?
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08:39<peter1138>Would be nice if the checker would display the bad message, and commit hash.
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08:41<nielsm>hacking on it locally to do just that atm
08:44<nielsm>seems I accidentally a space before the :
08:48<LordAro>file an issue!
08:54<peter1138>Oh yes, I see it now :p
08:55<nielsm>is this a good solution?
08:55<nielsm>(I'm not good at shell scripting)
08:56<nielsm>gives me output like this:
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09:05<peter1138>Erm, I dunno what you changed :p
09:06<nielsm>echoes commit ids as they are checked
09:06<nielsm>instead of failing on the first error, sets a flag and continues checking the rest, then returns error flag at the end
09:13*nielsm performs a little dance
09:13<nielsm>"The commit looks good"
09:15<nielsm>...oh, right
09:15<nielsm>errors in the non-windows midi drivers
09:16<peter1138>Premature little dance :p
09:21<nielsm>let's try that again
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09:28-!-chomwitt is "chomwitt" on #oolite #openttd #qemu #debian #debian-games
09:32<ZehMatt_>Its somewhat tempting to clean up all the video driver code
09:32<ZehMatt_>most of it is somehow duplicate code
09:33*nielsm puts on Daft Punk
09:33<nielsm>ONE MORE TIME~!
09:33<LordAro>ZehMatt_: doit
09:34<ZehMatt_>well still having the one PR ongoing
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>ZehMatt_: make an abstract video driver factory? :p
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09:56<TrueBrain>[14:39] <peter1138> Would be nice if the checker would display the bad message, and commit hash. <- feel free to make a PR for the git-hook repo :)
09:56<TrueBrain>owh, someone already did :P
09:56<TrueBrain>should read up before commenting :D
09:57<TrueBrain>and no, I missed the rain twice; lovely ride in the sun for me :)
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10:00<nielsm>"All checks have passed" wee
10:01<TrueBrain>gratz :)
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>what about the czechs then?
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>(anyone got the feeling my jokes got worse over the last year or two?)
10:10<LordAro>only two?
10:11<TrueBrain>yippie, basics of CMake works :)
10:14<TrueBrain>now to figure out how to get stuff like strgen running :)
10:17<TrueBrain>now it auto-detects vcpkg stuff :D No more fiddling! :D
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10:17<Sacro>Bye Eddi
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10:25-!-andythenorth is "andythenorth" on #openttd
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10:30<TrueBrain>bit weird what Pikka said: "if andythenorth is joining, I am going to leave; really sick of all those images about trains"; not sure what that was about
10:30<andythenorth>yeah I read the logs
10:31<TrueBrain><3 andythenorth :)
10:31<andythenorth>I know, that pikka
10:31<andythenorth>shall I close some issues?
10:31<TrueBrain>depends how :P
10:31<andythenorth>anything to avoid drawing \ / views for trains :P
10:32<TrueBrain>really happy the new OSX builds seem to fix a few OSX issues :)
10:32<andythenorth>I haven't tried it properly
10:32<andythenorth>I have a cheap tester, I'll get him to play tomorrow
10:32<andythenorth>he doesn't eat or drink when he's playing games, so it's a saving overall
10:32<TrueBrain>the mouse weirdness seems gone
10:32<TrueBrain>which is good
10:32<andythenorth>oh good
10:33<andythenorth>I wonder if it's stopped locking the cursor to left screen edge too
10:33<andythenorth>that's kind of annoying
10:33<andythenorth>quite unplayable
10:33<TrueBrain>lemme know if it does :)
10:33<TrueBrain>if it doesn't, tell LordAro
10:33<TrueBrain>I dont care about stuff that is not working :P
10:33<TrueBrain>now how am I going to do strgen in CMake I wonder ..
10:34<andythenorth>your problems are same as mine, just several levels lower :P
10:35<LordAro>TrueBrain: custom commands, i imagine
10:35<TrueBrain>yeah .. but that doesnt result in code now does it :D
10:36<TrueBrain>for example, how do I get it to compile strgen before it runs the custom command .. hmm
10:36<LordAro> is what i wrote a long time ago
10:36<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: somebody definitely has a patch for it
10:36<LordAro>ah, that question is apparently answered with
10:36<TrueBrain>Rubidium: sadly, that always is the case in this community .. bit annoying tbfh :P
10:36<TrueBrain>so LordAro, why isnt this in OpenTTD yet?
10:37<LordAro>because i'm still not sure i like cmake :p
10:37<@Rubidium>because he closed the CMake build ticket for OpenTTD? ;)
10:37<TrueBrain>LordAro: your personally preference is irrelevant to me :P
10:38<TrueBrain>this custom pile of shit really needs replacing :)
10:38<LordAro>configure scripts have the advantage of portability
10:38<TrueBrain>(I can call it that; I wrote it)
10:38<LordAro>even autotools generated configure scripts have that
10:38<TrueBrain>all OSes we support, have CMake support
10:38<LordAro>with cmake, you need cmake to build
10:39<TrueBrain>so what is next? Are we going to write our own compiler, because it is more portable?
10:39<LordAro>don't be silly :p
10:39<TrueBrain>current "configure" system is 14 years old ....
10:39<TrueBrain>it needs replacement
10:39<@Rubidium>*explitive* is time really going that fast?
10:39<TrueBrain>and cmake won that race
10:39<TrueBrain>Rubidium: yes
10:40<andythenorth>is how I got to be 40 years old
10:40<andythenorth>I was less when I started ottding
10:40<LordAro>Rubidium: hey, i've been here 9 years now :p
10:41<LordAro>TrueBrain: well, go ahead then
10:41<LordAro>autotools avoids an extra (hard) dependency, is all
10:41<TrueBrain>autotools really is a big no-no
10:41<TrueBrain>they really lost the race, for so many reasons
10:41<TrueBrain>but having Linux and Windows closer together, is really a plus
10:42<TrueBrain>means we can stop generating MSVC files for 2017+
10:42<LordAro>fair enough
10:42<TrueBrain>and they don't avoid a dependency at all btw
10:42<TrueBrain>I have more systems without autotools than with :)
10:42<LordAro>i don't have any particular opposition to cmake, just a general unease :p
10:42<TrueBrain>I am also trying to get more and more systems without gcc
10:42<TrueBrain>(but with clang, for example)
10:43<@Rubidium> <- kewl... I'm talking to 2021 now. Didn't know IRC had that in it ;)
10:43<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you really want to play this game? :)
10:44<TrueBrain>hmm, the import of course doesnt let me step into that branch
10:44<TrueBrain>and I am not annoyed your name is on that commit :P
10:44<TrueBrain>not even shared credits!
10:47<andythenorth>train 50 is not my finest work
10:47<andythenorth>should look more like train 52
10:50<andythenorth>$someone should fix it :P
10:50<TrueBrain>Rubidium: okay, 2006-07-30 was the first commit to that branch; guess we call that the starting date :P
10:53<TrueBrain>okay, cmake now first compiles strgen .. right .. it fails horrible .. endian shit .. at least in concept that works :)
10:53<TrueBrain>sweet :)
10:53<@Rubidium>still amazing that it managed to function well for so long
10:53<TrueBrain>same .. as it was written with little bash knowledge, and a lot crash&burn moments
10:54<TrueBrain>but once it got stable .. it seems nobody touched it enough for it to break :P
10:54<TrueBrain>like this big tower build on sticks
10:55<peter1138>What was that other build system... hmm...
10:55<TrueBrain>before config.lib?
10:55<TrueBrain>plain Makefile :P
10:55<TrueBrain>nowedays you have autoconf and cmake
10:55<peter1138>Oh I remember. waf.
10:55<TrueBrain>where cmake can address a few more targets
10:55<TrueBrain>like Makefile, ninja, and a few more
10:56<TrueBrain>that is the other nice thing if cmake works .. means you can switch to ninja if you like :)
10:56<peter1138>waf had the concept that you distributed waf with your project.
10:56<peter1138>But it was python.
10:56<peter1138>But it was bytecode.
10:56<TrueBrain>sounds like the sound a dog makes tbfh
10:57<peter1138>I gave up with it and used... guess what?
10:57<peter1138>(Yeah, cmake)
10:57<TrueBrain>the more I use cmake, the more I like it; especially as more people start to use it
10:58<TrueBrain>pkg-config was a good idea, just not enough people used it for a long time
10:58<peter1138>Hmm, this was 8/9 years ago ;)
10:58<TrueBrain>find_package in cmake replaces pkg-config .. but enough packages support it for it to be useful
10:58<TrueBrain>I remember in 2006 that pkg-config was only supported by 1 or 2 libraries
10:58<TrueBrain>and even than they tend to break
10:59<TrueBrain>like one of them added -pthread, no matter what youc ompiler was
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11:01<TrueBrain>but now, even on Windows the find_package(png) worked :D
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11:04*Rubidium wonders to what extend endian_check is actually really needed; seems like there's a preprocessor flag for it
11:05<TrueBrain>which one?
11:07<TrueBrain>something to try :)
11:07<TrueBrain>removes a lot of silly code :)
11:07<TrueBrain>are there systems that dont have htons etc defined I wonder :P
11:08*andythenorth fixes train 50 with 'return []'
11:09<andythenorth>hmm but now nml complains
11:09<andythenorth>one step forward, one step back
11:10<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: only ones not conforming to POSIX.1-2001
11:11<TrueBrain>given we are switching to stdc++11 or higher, can I assume that wont be a problem? :D
11:11<TrueBrain>so much code that can be removed :P
11:11<TrueBrain>SO MUCH CODE
11:12*andythenorth has to make more MOAR CODE :(
11:12<andythenorth>too much conditional shit
11:12<andythenorth>time to split the template
11:12<LordAro>TrueBrain: hype
11:13<TrueBrain>don't hype! PROGRAM!
11:13<LordAro>def detect_missing_files_by_reading_error_messages():
11:14<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: I can't think of any reasonably recent OS with UI that would have support for C++ compiled binaries but no support htons
11:14<TrueBrain>so we can drop the whole endian-check-shit
11:15<Sacro>But I run TTD on Windows 98SE still :(
11:16<nielsm>what compiler supports C++11 and also win9x targets?
11:16<@Rubidium>Sacro: that still falls under reasonably recent ;)
11:16<nielsm>and yes htons is in winsock 1 which arrived in win95
11:16<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: gfx_type.hpp's going to be the largest obstacle
11:17<TrueBrain>who has a patch for that?
11:17<TrueBrain>Rubidium: we can fix that with __BYTE_ORDER__ for now I guess
11:17<Sacro>Rubidium: foiled
11:18<Sacro>I've not played OpenTTD in ages to be fair, busy working
11:18<Sacro>Is PBIMTTD still a thing?
11:18<TrueBrain>does he now imply we are not working? Hmmmmmmmm
11:18<Sacro>You know I'm here to troll
11:19<Sacro>Same as the last 2 decades
11:19<TrueBrain>at least you now admit it :D
11:19<FLHerne>I thought meson was supposed to be the new shiny vs CMake/autotools :P
11:19<nielsm>also keep in mind that any recent compiler (worth using) should recognize common patterns for assembling/disassembling values from integers into specific byte orders
11:19<nielsm>and translate it into a known-fast machine code equivalent for the platform
11:19<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: yep, though test for #if __BYTE_ORDER__ == __ORDER_LITTLE_ENDIAN__ (i.e. invert the lines), so if __BYTE_ORDER__ and __ORDER_LITTLE_ENDIAN__ are not defined, then it still assumes it being little endian (which would be the right choice most of the time anyway)
11:20<TrueBrain>I expect a PR any minute now? :D
11:21*Sacro considers writing a daylength patch
11:21<FLHerne>Definitely aren't enough of those
11:22<Sacro>FLHerne: mine was the first
11:22<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: you can have the expectation, but at the moment I don't have the environment to make one
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11:23<TrueBrain>guess you have some work to do when you get home :P :P :P
11:25<TrueBrain>goes for you too LordAro :P
11:25<TrueBrain>good boy :)
11:25<TrueBrain>nah, tomorrow I will fiddle with getting strgen to work via cmake without endian stuff, make a branch for it, see how that goes
11:25<LordAro>got to deal with some Ada for another 2 hours first though
11:26<TrueBrain>good luck :)
11:26<TrueBrain>guess we need to make a simple cmake parser for sources.list :)
11:27<LordAro>the hardest bit will be handling the #if
11:27<LordAro>could run cpp on it :p
11:27<TrueBrain>sounds like a plan
11:27<TrueBrain>even if wehave to modify sources.list a bit, as long as the others understand it again
11:27<LordAro>wouldn't be very cross platform though
11:28<LordAro>or... would it? msvc must have a preprocessor somewhere
11:28<TrueBrain>no clue honestly
11:28<TrueBrain>but in generate(.vbs) has a parser for sources.list .. so I am sure we can figure something out there :)
11:30<LordAro>is the goal not to get rid of the generate scripts entirely?
11:30<TrueBrain>over time, sure
11:30<TrueBrain>but never go for the goal, always make a step towards it
11:30<TrueBrain>BE AGILE! :D
11:31<Sacro>openttd/bionic 1.7.1-1build1 amd64
11:31<nielsm>okay theoretically I think you could write a module for msbuild that allows you to read an external source to generate items for the compile
11:31<Sacro>Will I get away with it in the office
11:31<nielsm>which would mean it could read source.list directly and produce something
11:31<nielsm>except that wouldn't cover the .vcxproj.filters stuff which is handled differently iirc
11:31<TrueBrain>nielsm: only we are talking about cmake; not msbuild :)
11:32<nielsm> <LordAro> or... would it? msvc must have a preprocessor somewhere
11:32<nielsm>but I think either vs2017 or maybe the next version might have direct support for cmake?
11:32<TrueBrain>if you go that road, build a custom application to do the conversion for you
11:32<TrueBrain>I mean ... ;)
11:33<Sacro>I think 2017 does
11:33<TrueBrain>happy you caught on; VS2017 supports CMake, the whole reason I started this ;)
11:33<TrueBrain>the whole of vcpkg uses it
11:33<nielsm>but what would need a preprocessor then?
11:33<TrueBrain>blathijs: ICU Layout needs replacing
11:34<TrueBrain>blathijs: there are drop-in replacements for it
11:34<TrueBrain>blathijs: but OpenTTD currently still needs it :)
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11:34<TrueBrain>blathijs: LordAro keeps telling me he is working on it .. he is just slacking :P
11:34<Sacro>TrueBrain: are you trying to bring everyone else out the woodwork?
11:34<TrueBrain>(and yes, 18.04 cannot compile OpenTTD :D)
11:34<Sacro>Can it not? I've not tried
11:34<LordAro>last i got to was deciding pango wasn't worth the effort, and going for harfbuzz instead
11:35<TrueBrain>Sacro: no, blathijs asked a question in another channel; thought it was better to answer him here :)
11:35<TrueBrain>LordAro: that should be an easy fix. Vendor icu-le-hb, and go go go :)
11:35<TrueBrain>Sacro: 18.04 comes with ICU 60, which doesnt have the Layout engine
11:35<Sacro>Ahh, I didn't know that, I don't do any icu dev anyway
11:36<LordAro>TrueBrain: yeah, but that's the hacky fix
11:36<LordAro>i want to do it properly
11:36<blathijs>Let me repeat it
11:36<TrueBrain>LordAro: but we dont have 3 years; 18.04 is due this week? :)
11:36<blathijs>Anyone know how much we really need the ICU ParagraphLayout? Seems we use it for wordwrapping with right-to-left support at quick glance
11:36<blathijs>Apparently support for it is a bit dodgy in ICU: the layout framework it uses was deprecated for buggyness, removed from icu and is now developed as a separate library apparently, which significantly complicates compiling the Debian packages (since the external library depends on ICU, whose ParagraphLayout part again depends on the external lib). Apparently we're the only ones in Debian that
11:36<LordAro>TrueBrain: yesterday, actually :p
11:36<blathijs>actually uses the ParagraphLayout, so things might get easier if we wouldn't :-p
11:36<TrueBrain>LordAro: so if wecan fix this by vendoring some code and adding hb as dep, and be done in a weekend; later we can do it properly :)
11:37<LordAro>blathijs: iirc, it's only "required" for RTL texts
11:37<blathijs>Note that that post suggests asking the OpenTTD folks, but I've not been asked so far (I just stumbled upon this post by accident)
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11:38<blathijs>LordAro: What would be alternatives? SKipping ParagraphLayout and using icu-le-hb directly?
11:38<blathijs>Or completely implmenting it ourselves?
11:38<@Rubidium>the latter is bonkers
11:39<LordAro>icu-le-hb is the shortterm make-it-work fix
11:39<LordAro>longer term, porting to "native" harfbuzz
11:39<@Rubidium>as it's not only for the order of the characters, but also for the joining of glyphs
11:40<blathijs>Oh, I thought icu-le-hb and harfbuzz were the same. I haven't really read up yet :-)
11:40<TrueBrain>icu-le-hb is een drop-in replacement for the Layout stuff in ICU to work with HB
11:40<TrueBrain>it basically implements the ICU interface on top of HB
11:41<TrueBrain>its very clever tbh :)
11:41<LordAro>incidentally, there's no debian package for it
11:42<LordAro>which would complicate things
11:42<TrueBrain>like I said, I would vendor ice-le-hb
11:42<TrueBrain>it is very small, very simple
11:42<LordAro>no licencing issues?
11:42<TrueBrain>possibly we need to extend our license that we have a vendored package with another license
11:43<andythenorth>karma will repay me for this next comment
11:43<TrueBrain>we already have that solved because of squirrel
11:43<TrueBrain>so license cannot be a problem :)
11:43<andythenorth>my proxy, temp, placeholder sprite to find a size
11:43<andythenorth>is better than some of the release sets I'm looking at :P
11:43<andythenorth>I will suffer for my arrogance ;P
11:44<TrueBrain>LordAro: and ice-le-hb license allows vendoring
11:44<TrueBrain>so from what I can see, it is just a matter of dropping ice-le-hb in 3rdparty folder
11:44<TrueBrain>add HB as dependency, upgrade ICU, and lalalaaa
11:45<TrueBrain>I keep writing ice-le-hb .. it is icu-le-hb
11:45<TrueBrain>dunno why my fingers do this ..
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>you're secretly wanting some ice cream
11:47<Sacro>Or a german train
11:48<peter1138>Not so secretly.
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>from Lippe to Bremen?
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>actually, LE seems to stand for "Lemgo" (in Lippe)
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>i somehow don't think they have an ICE connection :p
11:52<peter1138>Well, it's Friday and I go home in 8 minutes.
11:52<peter1138>Maybe I will check out this icu-le-hb library.
11:52<TrueBrain>please do :)
11:52<peter1138>pango itself doesn't seem to be the right thing to use.
11:52<TrueBrain>solves a lot of dependency issues :)
11:53<peter1138>The thing with "joining of glyphs" is... do we need that?
11:53<peter1138>Kerning I guess?
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>some languages are full of these things
11:53<peter1138>Ah, ok
11:54<peter1138>Fortunately harfbuzz has a vcpkg port :)
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12:17<nielsm>what is the proper way to use media/baseset/translations.awk, is there a make target for it or something?
12:20<blathijs>TrueBrain: LordAro: Sorry, was away for a bit
12:21<blathijs>TrueBrain: Ah, I see about icu-le-hb. The bug I linked above suggests that there will be a Debian package for icu-le-hb, which is what they'll be using to get ParagraphLayout working on the upcoming ICU version
12:25<blathijs>Apparently the layout stuff was removed from ICU 58, but Debian is still at 57, so this was not a problem before
12:29<blathijs>TrueBrain: In any case, I think that icu-le-hb won't help directly (either in Debian or vendored), since we use ParagraphLayout, which is *not* in in icu-le-hb, but still in icu for some reason
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12:34<andythenorth>should I play OpenTTD?
12:34<peter1138>blathijs, ParagraphLayout is still in ICU.
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>actually play the game? what blasphemy
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12:34<peter1138>Hmm, this Qwertee t-shirt is... very thin :S
12:35<nielsm>I split my GUI changes for music into a separate PR, which I think should be easier to review ;)
12:36<nielsm>and the rest is also much more cleaned now
12:36<nielsm>I can't think of any more immediate improvements
12:37<nielsm>apart from having the (untested) parts actually tested so those notes can be removed
12:37<peter1138>Actually tested or just compiled?
12:37<peter1138>Hmm, cold. Might put the heating on.
12:38<nielsm>actually tested
12:38<nielsm>the big thing is whether you can get the dos version music playing on non-windows systems
12:38<nielsm>the CI compiles do pass for it
12:38<andythenorth>peter1138: get your big coat
12:40<peter1138>Problem is it's too big.
12:40<LordAro>cut it in half!
12:40<peter1138>Not quite that big :p
12:41<LordAro>cut a bit of it!
12:41<peter1138>Losing weight is expensive ;(
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12:44<andythenorth>let's try NoCarGoal again
12:44<andythenorth>can't remember if I hacked it in place to fix the cargos :P
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12:45<andythenorth>yup, I broke it
12:48<blathijs>peter1138: Yes, that's what I said, ParagraphLayout is in ICU, not icu-le-hb, which creates a weird circular dependency. Moving it to icu-le-hb would seem sensible, since that seems to be the only lib to offer the layout enging dependencies needed by ParagraphLayout.
12:49<peter1138>I don't think there's any circular dependency, you can just link both.
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12:50<peter1138>> TESCO
12:55<blathijs>peter1138: icu-le-hb (and/or Harfbuzz) depends on ICU, so to build ParagraphLayout you need to build ICU without ParagraphLayout first, then build icu-le-hb, then build again with ParagraphLayout AFAIU
12:56<blathijs>Hm, some store apparently
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13:02<TrueBrain>blathijs: people suggest that icu-le-hb resolves the LayoutEngine problem that is no longer in ICU; I suggest we just give it a try, and see what it does
13:02<TrueBrain>from everything I read, HB really did their best to make transition as easy as possible
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13:29<Thedarkb-X40>I'm trying to configure the Company Value GS
13:32<Thedarkb-X40>I'm confused as to what units it actually uses.
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13:42<blathijs>TrueBrain: I think we do not actually need to change anything to try that, as long as the Debian icu package does the right dance to compile ParagraphLayout against icu-le-hb
13:42<blathijs>TrueBrain: But the icu maintainer seems to imply that it would be better if that dance was not required, which would be the case if OpenTTD stopped using ParagraphLayout
13:43<TrueBrain>sorry to break it to you, but Debian is not our only customer :D
13:43<TrueBrain>we need a fix that works on every OS :)
13:43<TrueBrain>give peter1138 a bit of time to try it out, see what happens
13:44<andythenorth>did anyone patch roadstops that don't need orientation?
13:44<andythenorth>cos it's kind of silly having to choose a direction
13:45<+glx>feel free to make a PR andythenorth :)
13:45<blathijs>TrueBrain: True, but it would indeed seem that no changes are required on the OpenTTD side in any case, only in building icu (but I guess for some platforms, building icu is done by us, not the OS vendor indeed)
13:45<peter1138>andythenorth, you mean automatically picking the right orientation?
13:46<+glx>I agree it's a smart idea
13:46<andythenorth>there are only a couple of valid bit patterns
13:46<peter1138>TrueBrain, to be fair, it sounds like blathijs has done more reading on it than me now ;)
13:46<andythenorth>if they're not valid, don't build
13:46<TrueBrain>blathijs: I try to switch that we build not 3rd party what so ever .. not ICU, not anything else :P
13:47<+glx>TrueBrain: I think vs140 and vs141 vcprojx will need an upgrade for vcpkg
13:48<TrueBrain>glx: that statement is very vague :)
13:48<+glx>else it's a pain to use static stuff
13:48<TrueBrain>you mean the library names?
13:48<TrueBrain>I just renamed the bunch :P
13:48<TrueBrain>but yes
13:48<TrueBrain>I think cmake is more promising, and make that work with vcpkg
13:48<blathijs>LordAro: A while ago, you said you looked at pango but it was not worth it and going for harfbuzz directly would be better. But AFAUI Harfbuzz doesn't offer directionality detection and doesn't offer linebreaking, (which Pango and ICU with Paragraphlayout does), so would you suggeste we implement that ourselves on top of Harfbuzz?
13:48<TrueBrain>than we can just deprecated vs141+ :)
13:49<+glx>not only the library names, by default vcpkg integration only support dynamic
13:49<TrueBrain>yes; you have to tell vcpkg to use the static triplet
13:49<TrueBrain>not sure if adding stuff to vcprojx is worth it
13:49<Thedarkb-X40>I think there's something broken with Company Value GS
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13:49*blathijs is off for a bit. I'll see if I can ping the ICU maintainer, maybe he has an idea how this ICU-loop-mess is going to be fixed on the longer run, or if there are alternative libraries to consider porting to.
13:49<+glx>so x64-windows-static stuff is still searched in x64-windows and not found
13:50<TrueBrain>is needed as option
13:50<TrueBrain>euh, property they are called :P
13:50<peter1138>blathijs, I looked briefly into Pango, it appears very tidied in with gdk rendering surfaces. I may have been looking at the wrong thing though.
13:50<+glx>in our project files yes
13:50<TrueBrain>vcpkg has a page about how to do static glx :)
13:50<peter1138>*tied in
13:50<TrueBrain>well, not project perse .. just somewhere
13:50<TrueBrain>but I think it is not worth adding to our project, and that adding cmake support is easier/more flexible
13:51<Thedarkb-X40>It works but the units are wrong.
13:51<TrueBrain>Thedarkb-X40: "units are wrong". This is very vague. A bit more info really helps :)
13:51<Thedarkb-X40>It says it goes up in 1000 pound increments.
13:52<+glx>it says to put it in our vcprojx
13:52<TrueBrain>lol, thought they said to put it in your personal thingy
13:53<Thedarkb-X40>But in practice it goes up in £500 increments.
13:53<Thedarkb-X40>It's annoying.
13:53<TrueBrain>anyway, I dont really mind/care :) What everworks for you glx :)
13:53<peter1138>Thedarkb-X40, did you check your currency settings?
13:53<Thedarkb-X40>It's in pounds.
13:53<TrueBrain>glx: the buildstuff just adds /p:VcpkgTriplet= to msbuild :D
13:54<+glx>not VS friendly ;)
13:54<peter1138>This cmake stuff, does that somehow replace the vs project file?
13:54<TrueBrain>but if you are going to make Vcpkg fixes, possibly think about a way to also fix the library names :)
13:54<peter1138>Seems odd if it does.
13:54<TrueBrain>it does, completely
13:54<TrueBrain>as far as I understand, anyway
13:55<+glx>but cmake uses msbuild
13:55<+glx>and I think cmake generates project files too
13:56<TrueBrain>from cmake, you can generate anything basically :)
13:56<TrueBrain>but it does it for you, is the idea: )
13:56<nielsm>I think you have a stub vcxproj that loads the cmake and generates a full msbuild project
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14:04<Thedarkb-X40>I don't know why I'm spelling out £
14:05<Thedarkb-X40>I have an Irish keyboard layout.
14:05<Thedarkb-X40>I have $€£
14:07<Thedarkb-X40>The company value GS just pauses the game in singleplayer.
14:07<Thedarkb-X40>Will it reset it in multiplayer?
14:07<TrueBrain>who is the author of this GS?
14:08<Thedarkb-X40>I think I should probably switch machines if I'm going to watch youtube videos and run openTTD at the same time.
14:08<Thedarkb-X40>Client: HexChat 2.12.4 • OS: Ubuntu "artful" 17.10 • CPU: Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1.40GHz (1.20GHz) • Memory: Physical: 1.2 GiB Total (434.3 MiB Free) Swap: 945.3 MiB Total (740.5 MiB Free) • Storage: 14.6 GB / 31.8 GB (17.2 GB Free) • VGA: Intel Corporation 82852/855GM Integrated Graphics Device @ Intel Corporation 82852/82855 GM/GME/PM/GMV Processor to I/O Contr
14:08<Thedarkb-X40>oller • Uptime: 1d 22h 58m 7s
14:09<TrueBrain>no need for that spam plz
14:09<Thedarkb-X40>Oh, sorry, it's just /sysinfo in hexchat.
14:10<TrueBrain>even if it is a crown on top of a monkey :)
14:10<ST2>eh, he forgot the credit card number, pin, etc xD
14:10<TrueBrain>ghehe :D
14:10<Thedarkb-X40>It was xarick
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14:11<peter1138>That's... a pretty basic machine :p
14:11<peter1138>Hmm, I have more RAM than you have storage, nice.
14:11<Thedarkb-X40>This only takes 1.8 inch hard drives.
14:11<Thedarkb-X40>That's a dead format.
14:12<Thedarkb-X40>So I put in an msata drive in an adapter with blue tack.
14:14<LordAro>blathijs: i have to say i don't know much about this. I was initially turned on to pango by frosch123, but after looking at it some, and looking at its dependencies (glib, among others), decided to try harfbuzz instead. Documentation for either library is basically nonexistent, so i've not really got any idea what features either support
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14:20*andythenorth found the original soundtrack
14:20<andythenorth>sounds ok on mac midi
14:23<frosch123>LordAro: blathijs: initially i looked into harfbuzz and its icu wrapper, but concluded that it does not implement what we need. it only layouts a single line, no paragraphs. pango looked like the higher level one, with quite some documnetation, but it needs adjustment to out custom renderer
14:25<TrueBrain>who thought it would be difficult, something as simple as letters :D
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14:36*andythenorth wants 'close dock'
14:36<andythenorth>so I can relocate it
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14:41<blathijs>frosch123: Yeah, that's also my understanding. However, apparently the paragraph layout still exists in ICU, but it's a mess wrt dependencies. As for pango, I suspect it has a lot of dependencies indeed, which might not make it a good candidate just for wordwrapping...
14:41<peter1138>And platforms?
14:41<peter1138>Road stops?
14:42<peter1138>Yeah, closing any sort of station tile would be useful sometimes.
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>i feel we have had this discussion already
14:42<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, stations or icu? or both :p
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>i meant the stations
14:42<peter1138>There's probably a patch for it.
14:42<peter1138>Isn't there airport closing?
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>i think we included that
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>but i'm not sure
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>because the discussion was endless
14:43<peter1138>I can't remember why I might've objected to it.
14:43<peter1138>Can't have things that make life easier, eh?
14:43<frosch123>blathijs: which system do you have in mind, which would run a openttd client and does not have pango?
14:43<peter1138>Windows :)
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>whether we should include it like it was, or extend it to some or all the things you listed above
14:44<peter1138>Is OS/2 still around? hehe
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>do we still have a morphos user?
14:44<frosch123>we got some os/2 patches 2 years ago
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14:45<peter1138>Hmm, I guess the thing is "Close airport" works on the whole thing, and is station-window based
14:45<frosch123>anyway, with c++14 we likely drop all of them including 9x
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>i think we dropped morphos when we dropped gcc 2.ancient, but there were talks that "soon" there might be an update to gcc 4
14:45<andythenorth>airport closing is a thing
14:45<andythenorth>and works well
14:45<blathijs>frosch123: Dunno, I don't have a clear view of the targets OpenTTD still supports :-)
14:45<Thedarkb-X40>I don't know about dropping OS/2
14:45<andythenorth>the problem with docks is that all the ships turn around when you demolish the dock to relocate it
14:45<Thedarkb-X40>ArcaOS is a thing.
14:46<andythenorth>and ship routes are often long
14:46<peter1138>Yeah, but I've had issues relocating roadstops loads of times too
14:46<peter1138>Platforms are a bit easier
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: try build while paused?
14:46<peter1138>In MP?
14:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: probably works, haven't tried
14:47<andythenorth>good enough for today
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>nobody plays MP
14:47<andythenorth>multi-docks would solve this too :P
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>like <1% of all players
14:47<peter1138>Yes. I had a patc.... oh
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>think maybe we should drop MP? would solve loads of problems :p
14:49<andythenorth>halloumi, rice and chips
14:49<andythenorth>do I miss any major food groups?
14:49<peter1138>"We dropped MP to let you use more NewGRFs"
14:49<frosch123>TrueBrain: what are your thoughts on ? is the no-output-on-success a reasonable thing? or is it silly since eints and jenkins do not care?
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: like anything involving meat?
14:49<peter1138>"But then we dropped NewGRFs because modern games use scripting languages instead"
14:50<peter1138>"With no specs"
14:50<andythenorth>drop trains
14:50<andythenorth>why does site search 'tt-forums' search ebay in my chrome :P
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>'); drop table trains; --?
14:51<peter1138>Rice and chips is basically one food group though.
14:51<peter1138>Good ol' starch.
14:51<andythenorth>might as well have both
14:51<andythenorth>@seen zuu
14:51<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: zuu was last seen in #openttd 20 hours, 54 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Zuu> Oh and I think this whole OpenTTD moving to git is a good thing by the way.
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14:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'd argue "chips" is ambiguous
14:52<andythenorth>NoCarGoal should have an option to delete my money
14:52<andythenorth>I usually win it by mass-funding industries
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>you can, like, disable funding?
14:53<andythenorth>then it can't be won
14:53<andythenorth>well, not at the goal levels I set
14:53<andythenorth>there's some interim
14:53*andythenorth wonders if GS can read fund costs
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>probably, but what would it do with it?
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14:54<andythenorth>remove money so that you can only fund occasionally
14:55<andythenorth>winning by funding is a valid tactic
14:55<andythenorth>but capping money would incentivise transporting more than just the goal cargos
14:55<andythenorth>I could just put industry prices up :P
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15:07<Eddi|zuHause>it's called "balancing", which this game is generally terrible at
15:08<Thedarkb-X40>There's a reason why planes are disabled on my server.
15:09<peter1138>Infrastructure costs?
15:10<andythenorth>should I PR this? o_O
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15:20<TrueBrain>frosch123: it is normal in CIs that errors are marked as "wrong". So a message always to the stderr seems wrong
15:20<TrueBrain>to the stdout is not a problem
15:21<TrueBrain>frosch123: "no output on success", what do you mean exactly?
15:21<Lap_op>is this a MP game?
15:22<TrueBrain>you can go through life SP just fine
15:22<frosch123>TrueBrain: "stdout" is never visible. So "no output on success" means "no message to stderr, if there is no problem"
15:22<Lap_op>TDM FFA CTF COOP?
15:22<TrueBrain>frosch123: I would very much prefer that any message on stderr is because of an error
15:23<TrueBrain>stdout is for everything else
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that kind of classification applies well :p
15:23<TrueBrain>(if that answers your question :D)
15:23<frosch123>i take it as agreement :p
15:23<Lap_op>so its COOP
15:23<andythenorth>Lap_op: other MP modes are available
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>that was actually my keyboard slipping away :p
15:24<andythenorth>there are goal servers that have a patched version of the game
15:24<andythenorth>somewhere on reddit
15:24<frosch123>Lap_op: how do you classify minecraft?
15:24<TrueBrain>frosch123: :D I am not fully sure I understand you, but yeah .. we seem to be saying the same :) The patch needs a fix, is my conclusion :)
15:24<andythenorth>citybuilder and so on
15:24<Lap_op>never played minecraft
15:24<frosch123>Lap_op: in that case there are different servers. some do coop, some do ffa, some do ladder
15:25<andythenorth>not so much MM
15:25<andythenorth>or RPG
15:25<Lap_op>minecraft is MMORPG as far as i can gather
15:25<frosch123>rpg in ottd is only singleplayer
15:26<TrueBrain>andythenorth: just O? :)
15:26<andythenorth>pretty much :)
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen people around here acting like it's an RPG :p
15:26<andythenorth>"I am Brunel"
15:26<andythenorth>"|'m Spartacus"
15:27<Pikka>openttd CTF sounds fun though
15:27<andythenorth>is Pikka :O
15:27<TrueBrain>first to the industry wins .. guess it is CTF :P
15:27<andythenorth>TrueBrain said Pikka had rage quit
15:28<TrueBrain>andythenorth believed what TrueBrain said
15:28<andythenorth>but the logs said it too
15:28<Lap_op>if there was a network tycoon mod CTF would make plenty of sence
15:28*andythenorth wonders about a CTF gamescript
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>maybe something asymmetric like in Team Fortress where one company must connect two industries and delver some cargo, and the other company must do all in its power to prevent it?
15:29<peter1138>Nah, it's too easy to prevent it.
15:29<andythenorth>I was thinking of forcing a start on opposite sides of the map
15:29<TrueBrain>some MPs feel like that :P
15:29<andythenorth>and capture the centre
15:29<andythenorth>but with high building costs or something
15:29<andythenorth>can GS modify building costs for part of the map?
15:29<Lap_op>were can i get the bots to play for me?
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15:29<andythenorth>Lap_op: there are AIs
15:30<andythenorth>downloadable content
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>how about OpenTTDota?
15:30<andythenorth>not sure if any servers run AIs
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>you can't have a bot in a player company
15:31<Pikka>can't you, Eddi?
15:31<Lap_op>you can if you run the server
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: there's like one line of code to prevent it :p
15:31<Pikka>oops :)
15:32<Lap_op>since its opensource you could edit that line out
15:32<Lap_op>big deal
15:32<Pikka>you can switch into ai companies in singleplayer
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>Lap_op: well technically, even any client could comment that line out
15:32<Pikka>but unless the ai is very simple or was written to be cooperative, it's unlikely to be very playable... :)
15:33<Lap_op>so the AI is readily available
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>there's no real way for the server to make sure the commands it receives are from a human
15:34<peter1138>Wasn't the AI system conceived so that AIs could fight it out?
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>possibly there are rate limits
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i think that's where we got Rondje from :p
15:35<Lap_op>you just need the AI to start easy and keeps growing to tackle the real player at the most infuriating point of his develpment plan
15:35<Lap_op>you know the boiling frogs metodology
15:35<LordAro>which is an urban myth
15:36<LordAro>the boiling frogs thing
15:36<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: & (seems to work for me; haven't and can't test it on big endian though). First is the change, second is some cleanup
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>there once was a patch that placed a sign like "hey i'm watching you", whereever a player did something
15:36<Lap_op>you realize boiling frogs is a metaphore?
15:36<LordAro>the scientist had to basically lobotomise the frogs to stop them from jumping out of the water
15:37<Pikka>Eddi: I want AIs to have access to the chat (in SP too), so they can more easily trash-talk
15:37<TrueBrain>Rubidium: nice :D Now make a PR out of it so I can review it properly :D
15:37<Lap_op>it makes perfect sense
15:37<Pikka>signs and the debug log just aren't enough :P
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: would that look anything like the chat in Goat Simulator RPG?
15:38<Lap_op>must be smiling faces season over here
15:39<Pikka>it's always a happy place in here, Lap_op
15:40<Lap_op>who can you teall its always happy if you dont have comparison point?
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15:41<Eddi|zuHause>if the tree falls in the wood and makes no sound, how can you know nobody is watching?
15:41<Lap_op>acording to einstatein everything is relative
15:41<Pikka>there's plenty to compare it to. I think most of us have experience of life outside this irc channel...
15:41<LordAro>outside? i don't understand
15:42<Thedarkb-X40>Outside.... you mean the OpenTTD subreddit, right?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>maybe he means other channels?
15:42<Lap_op>Eddi|zuHause: you probablly think you are deaf
15:42<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, Goat MMO Simulator :D
15:42<Lap_op>Eddi|zuHause: you probablly think you gone deaf
15:42<peter1138>The positioning of the word Simulator is important.
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: ah that's the name
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i forgot
15:43<peter1138>The trash talk was quite convincing.
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i played it on a free weekend, was about all of Goat Simulator i could suffer :p
15:43<Thedarkb-X40>That must be it.
15:44<Thedarkb-X40>That's outside.
15:44<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, oh yes, it's crap
15:44<andythenorth>I made a goat game once
15:44<TrueBrain>nobody played it?
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>anyone remember when there were half a dozen Moorhuhn games?
15:46<Thedarkb-X40>LGR has a boxed copy of goat sim.
15:46<Thedarkb-X40>God only knows where that's from.
15:46<Lap_op>this channel is becoming sad all of a sudden
15:47<Lap_op>whats about all this goat talk?
15:47<TrueBrain>you do know which channel you joined, right?
15:49<Lap_op>ive seen a movie about goats
15:49<Lap_op>haven't you?
15:50<Lap_op>The Men Who Stare at Goats
15:51<Lap_op>are you still here?
15:52<Lap_op>seems like this is the only live channel on this network
15:52<peter1138>Hmm, if I add GUI sprites to the game, should I put them in openttdgui.png or a separate image?
15:52<andythenorth>is the movie any good?
15:52<andythenorth> I read the book
15:52<peter1138>I guess in the same image is how we've always done it.
15:52<andythenorth>seems trad
15:52<Lap_op>is the book anygood?
15:52<frosch123>peter1138: if you add them to the ottdgui action5, also add them to openttdgui.png imo
15:53<peter1138>Is there such a thing as an image diff? :D
15:53<andythenorth>Lap_op: book is ok
15:53<andythenorth>peter1138: in photoshop, yes :P
15:53<andythenorth>it doesn't do what you want though
15:53<andythenorth>you could write one in PIL
15:54<peter1138>The image you sent me is nearly twice the size.
15:54<andythenorth>possibly terrible compression
15:54<andythenorth>let me see
15:55<andythenorth>photoshop has a habit of bloating pngs if not kept on a leash
15:56<andythenorth>peter1138: how big is it for you in KB?
15:56<peter1138>Ah, the layer modes don't work in indexed mode.
15:56<peter1138>26KB vs 43KB
15:56<peter1138>I reexported it in Gimp and it's now 26KB
15:57<Thedarkb-X40>one of my neighbours has a goat.
15:57<andythenorth>yeah I got the same in photoshop
15:57<Thedarkb-X40>It looks angry all the time.
15:57<andythenorth>let's hope it's supposed to be DOS palette eh :P
15:57<Thedarkb-X40>Imagine OpenTTD in EGA
15:57<peter1138>Hmm, which palette though?
15:57<Thedarkb-X40>That awful one used by sopwith
15:58<Thedarkb-X40>Some CGA games looked very good.
15:58<peter1138>Hmm, actually it had a 64 colour mode. Hmm.
15:58<Thedarkb-X40>Like digger.
15:59<andythenorth>proper graphics
15:59<+glx>TrueBrain: using vcpkg static libs (except icu still from useful-6.0) openttd.exe x64 release is 13.4MB
16:00<andythenorth>look at the refresh rate :P
16:00<TrueBrain>glx: hmm .. so it is either ICU, or VS2017 ...
16:00<TrueBrain>closing in on the issue :D
16:00<TrueBrain>tomorrow I will see if I can locally build it on VS2017
16:01<peter1138>andythenorth, my BBC Micro had a hardware flaw: in Mode 2, colour 6 defaulted to green instead of cyan.
16:01<peter1138>It could be fixed by updating the palette, but of course, nothing ever did that.
16:01<peter1138>It made jcbdigger a bit harder
16:01<peter1138>and citadel
16:01<andythenorth>I think that game caused HEQS :P
16:05<peter1138>Warning on sprite 1533 (level 1).
16:05<peter1138>Wow, that's useful.
16:07<frosch123>yes, that warning is the reason i think we should drop renum
16:07<frosch123>too much chicken/egg for just getting sprite 0 right
16:08<andythenorth>do I need boats with more capacity? :P
16:09<peter1138>Hmm, sprite 0 is 0 as it should be.
16:10<frosch123>we only need renum to put the "number of sprites in the grf" into sprite 0
16:11<frosch123>we always get the renum warning "you added more ottd gui sprites, than renum thinks ottd expects"
16:11<frosch123>which is a bit stupid :p
16:11<peter1138>could we just disable the warning?
16:11<peter1138>(which i've done for now)
16:12<frosch123>if there is such option, it would make sense
16:12<peter1138>It's kinda correct but yeah, makes adding things harder.
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16:17<peter1138>andythenorth, damn, those icons are right for the group window but the livery window ones are a bit larger ;(
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>SimCity 1 was available as EGA game
16:17<peter1138>yay consistency
16:17<andythenorth>peter1138: yay
16:17<andythenorth>want me to do something?
16:18<Thedarkb-X40>I can't understand why everyone used shitty palettes on EGA?
16:18<+glx>no choice
16:18<peter1138>Thedarkb-X40, the palette could only be changed in 640x350 mode.
16:18<andythenorth>looks like livery window icons are same size as toolbar
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>"EGA" for me always meant 64 colours
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what paletes you mean
16:19<Thedarkb-X40>I was thinking because a few CGA games look good.
16:19<peter1138>EGA has 16 colours, but in 640x350 those colours could be chosen from a total of 64 colours.
16:19<andythenorth>group window icons are some arbitrary amount smaller :P
16:19<andythenorth>the proportions are bad on the group window icons anyway :P
16:20<peter1138>18x18 there, for some reason
16:20<andythenorth>they're too narrow
16:20<peter1138>Maybe we should just pad them to 20x20 like the rest?
16:20<andythenorth>I would
16:20<andythenorth>patch grows :P
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure there was also a way to display 64 colours at the same time... but my memory might be off after all this time
16:20<andythenorth>do it in trunk :P
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16:20<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, I thought so too but it seems not.
16:20<Thedarkb-X40>I didn't realise you could only change the palette in 640x350
16:21<peter1138>Thedarkb-X40, it's not something that's relevant now :)
16:21<peter1138>I looked it up!
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>there was also almost definitely also a way to change palette in text mode
16:21<Thedarkb-X40>I can remember doing that in QBASIC.
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>possibly with one fewer also
16:21<Thedarkb-X40>On a CGA though.
16:21<Thedarkb-X40>CGA with a monochrome screen.
16:21<Thedarkb-X40>Which is basically just useless.
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>CGA was weird, you had 3 palettes of 4 colours?
16:22<peter1138>Fixed palettes. Wonderful.
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>and most people used the one with the weird pink
16:22<Thedarkb-X40>Except for Windmill software.
16:22<peter1138>Yeah, "white", cyan and magenta was the default.
16:22<Thedarkb-X40>They could make CGA look good.
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think there was white in that
16:23<peter1138>Rarely saw red, cyan and white.
16:23<peter1138>And the other one was red green and yellow.
16:23<peter1138>Because RASTAAAA
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>there was also one with a brown?
16:23<peter1138>Hmm, I think there may have been dark and light versions then.
16:23<peter1138>Cos you are right
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>but VGA was also a bit silly
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>because it somehow lost the colour flexibility from EGA?
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16:24<Eddi|zuHause>and 256 colours were only available with super low res
16:24<peter1138>Yes, there were dark and light versions.
16:25<peter1138>Yes, because there was not enough memory for 256 colours in high-res.
16:25<peter1138>VGA had 256KB.
16:25<+glx>like the cpc and its 16 colours and big pixels
16:25<peter1138>8bpp in 640x480 is more than that.
16:25<peter1138>Also 16 colour mode was some horrible planar thing.
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but somehow the EGA-way of defining colours was also not available in VGA, so you had the fixed 16 colours
16:26<peter1138>I think it may have been.
16:26<peter1138>But nothing used it.
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>well any VGA card you could run in EGA mode
16:26<peter1138>"The 640×480 16-color and 320×200 256-color modes had fully redefinable palettes, with each entry selectable from within an 18-bit (262,144-color) RGB table"
16:28<peter1138>And then there was MCGA.
16:29<peter1138>Wow, this all totally relevant.
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>well, i suppose some games did use that for animated colours
16:29<peter1138>Hmm, Windows Store version of OpenTTD. I wonder what's involved with that.
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>i think there was a forum topic a la "don't give money to this person"
16:30<+glx>I think orudge tried to talk to MS about it
16:30<+glx>but I'm not sure
16:31<peter1138>Well, MCGA looked the same as the 256 colour VGA mode, but subtle differences behind the scenes.
16:31<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, erm, well, there's a forum post asking for OpenTTD on the store. I just wondered what's involved in making that.
16:32<nielsm>biggest challenge in a windows store version will probably be file handling, both downloads, savegames, and perhaps screenshots and the like
16:32<peter1138>I'm sure Windows Store titles can download things.
16:32<nielsm>sure they can, it's where they store them
16:32<peter1138>They probably have a sandboxes local file storage, surely?
16:32<nielsm>and what parts of the FS they can access
16:32<nielsm>you can't just fopen() random things
16:32<peter1138>Doesn't need anything other than its own storage.
16:33<+glx>I think they have limited local storage space
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: openttd can easily be configured where to store files other than "Documents"
16:34<nielsm>I'm not saying it will be a gigantic challenge, just that it will probably be the part that requires most care compared to everything else
16:34<+glx>anyway store apps have some limitations compared to desktop apps
16:35<peter1138>So, let's get their source to see what's changed. And then if possible make an official free version.
16:35<peter1138>I dunno about licensing, mind you.
16:39<+glx>oh the "disclaimer" on top of the description was not there last time I checked
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16:48<Thedarkb-X40>What's the point of the Windows store?
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16:52<nielsm>from a user's point of view, installing things from the windows store should be safer, since everything from there runs sandboxed and (barring bugs in the sandbox) can't affect the OS as a whole
16:53<nielsm>which also means uninstalling an app installed from it really does remove everything
16:54<Lap_op>the point of windows store is to mimic apple store and android store
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16:55<peter1138>That too
16:55<peter1138>But there are some Windows editions that can only use the store. Some cut down tablet thing?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure lots of "less literate" computer users benefit from a single "store"
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: yeah, some school version of windows was (meant to be?) store only
16:56<Lap_op>linux works the same way
16:57<Lap_op>linux store = distro repository
16:58<Lap_op>albeit repositories can be mirrored
16:58<Lap_op>buy anyone
16:58<nielsm>not really, no, the way package managers traditionally work on linux distros is closer to MSI (windows installer) in that the package manager has a database of files installed on the system, but files from all packages are installed mixed together in the directory structure
16:59<nielsm>sure there's then some automated downloading and dependency resolution stuff on top of that
16:59<nielsm>but packages are not isolated from each other
17:00<nielsm>however if distros switch over to packaging everything in docker containers/similar things, then you have a comparison
17:01<Lap_op>there is a distro that already installs every program to its own dir
17:02<Lap_op>like windows \programs\
17:02<Thedarkb-X40>make install
17:02<Thedarkb-X40>is a thing.
17:03<andythenorth>specific engines per cargo class would be dumb, right?
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>"separate directory" is something very different from "isolated virtual machine"
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes
17:04<andythenorth>the 'one obvious choice' rule for Iron Horse engines works
17:04<andythenorth>there are a lot of freight cargos, and it gets monotonous choosing the same engine over and again
17:04<Lap_op>i dont think android apps run in isolated virtual machines
17:04<andythenorth>pax has more variety, depending on the route
17:04<Lap_op>do they?
17:05<nielsm>they do have some level of sandboxing
17:05<nielsm>seLinux based I think?
17:08<nielsm>(if you have bugs in a sandbox, allowing apps to leak out/data to leak in, are they then called termites?)
17:08<Lap_op>google took linux and turned its free philosophy around
17:09<Lap_op>running rootkits in a VM hmm
17:09<Lap_op>should avoid detection
17:10<Lap_op>arguably even more difficult to remove
17:11<Lap_op>the VM is the horse and trojan is inside it
17:11<Lap_op>makes perfect sense
17:13<Lap_op>and since most if not all of them apps are always going online...
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18:41<LordAro>suddenly 8 PRs
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19:38<TrueBrain>ieuw, close them, quick!
19:45<TrueBrain>helping people within 32 minutes; now that is a good service-rate :P
19:45<TrueBrain>(ticket #6755)
19:55<Thedarkb-X40>Does the classification hard stuff in ISR actually work?
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20:09<Thedarkb-X40>Bleh, my ratings are plummeting because I can't keep up with the production of this iron mine.
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---Logclosed Sat Apr 28 00:00:48 2018