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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-04-29

---Logopened Sun Apr 29 00:00:50 2018
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01:52<@Rubidium>woopsie... forgot that my MIPS QEMU was still in temp when I shut my computer down yesterday :(
01:53<Eddi|zuHause>you... shut down your computer?
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02:03<@Rubidium>ah well, strgen resulted in the same files so it should (tm) work fine
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02:55<andythenorth>@seen pikka
02:55<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 53 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <Pikka> at that point, why not just turn plane crashes off?
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03:57<Pikka>I do see
03:58<andythenorth>my train set doesn't work
03:58<andythenorth>I played a game to try it
04:00<Pikka>what's wrong with it?
04:01<andythenorth>flippant answer: no super deltic (4,400hp proposed but never built)
04:01<andythenorth>serious answer
04:01<andythenorth>'one obvious engine choice' works brilliantly, except when it gets monotonous
04:02<andythenorth>for pax there are more options, electric, diesel, metro, railcar, etc
04:02<andythenorth>but for freight, I do a lot of TL5, and it's all moguls or 37s
04:04<Pikka>isn't that going to be the case even with "realistic" sets? I mean the more powerful engines are only use for higher TL + weight multiplier
04:04<andythenorth>actually in my test game it's not all 37s, it just seems that way
04:04<andythenorth>13 out of 53 trains
04:04<andythenorth>I think there's a difference between 'one obvious choice' and 'only one choice'
04:05<Pikka>I'm not sure it's possible to not have an "obvious choice" in TTD
04:05<andythenorth>it's possible to obscure the choice :)
04:06<Pikka>"realistic" sets have an advantage in that players will choose vehicles for reasons other than game mechanics
04:06<andythenorth>see NARS 2 :)
04:07<Pikka>whereas something like Pineapple Trains, where the vehicles are completely fictitious... it already has a low number of locos, and adding more would be pointless because there's just not enough gameplay niches
04:07<Pikka>they'd either not be used, or they'd cause something else to not be used
04:08<andythenorth>I keep poking at adding a 1200hp engine, below the 37
04:08<andythenorth>but it would be under-powered for TL5
04:08<andythenorth>maybe I just need another livery :P
04:08<andythenorth>I banned engine liveries
04:09<Pikka>Rats... nice for shorter trains, and little passenger trains @ 90mph, but not enough power for heavy freight. They work. :)
04:09<Pikka>or double headed on heavy freight, doubleheading is always nice
04:09<andythenorth>kind of got the OP 73 for that
04:10<andythenorth>maybe I add a joker steam engine around 1950 or so
04:11<andythenorth>I added a joker heavy electric :)
04:11<andythenorth>doesn't align with the standard intro dates or model life
04:13<Pikka>"generations" can get a bit stale
04:13<andythenorth>they do
04:13<andythenorth>especially when it's just another 37
04:14<Pikka>oh dear
04:14<Pikka>civilai's gone rogue
04:14<andythenorth>generations aren't a flawed concept
04:14<Pikka>it's got six trains on a two-train line
04:14<andythenorth>child A reports that Civil AI is a good competitor btw
04:14<andythenorth>he says when it gets ships, it will be super hard and OP
04:14<Pikka>I'd better add ships then
04:14<andythenorth>hmm, is a garratt needed?
04:15<Pikka>adding more variety to the train networks atm
04:15<andythenorth>is it ever needed? :P
04:15<Pikka>I don't know
04:15<Pikka>they're a bugger to draw though :P
04:15<andythenorth>they are, I tried 2 for the african roster
04:15<andythenorth>file under DVTs
04:15<andythenorth>just no
04:16<Pikka>unless you really abstracted the articulation, rather than trying to make them look realistic
04:16<Pikka>still need a quintuplex for NA ;)
04:19<andythenorth>I should make a nuts style set
04:19<andythenorth>all fake
04:20<Pikka>you shouldn't, tbh. It's fun to play with concepts but I think the "model train" aspect is what makes TTD work. People like trains they recognise.
04:20<andythenorth>me too
04:20<andythenorth>but I keep finding pages about 'never built' UK trains
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04:21<andythenorth>the problem with 5000hp diesels in 1970 is where to go in 2020 with progression
04:21<andythenorth>anyway, is it one of these as a joker?
04:22<Pikka>definitely, Q1s are great
04:22<Pikka>and an original TT vehicle :P
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04:23*andythenorth adds it to 'todo'
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04:30<andythenorth>hmm maybe FLHerne's suggestion for mixed traffic, round 3
04:33<andythenorth>or it's quite enough already
04:34<andythenorth>1989 ^
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04:40<Wolf01>TrueBrain what are you doing with datacenters? :D "Repairs are ongoing after a massive power outage in the Amsterdam region that affected many services."
04:45<@Rubidium>sounds like a bad datacenter
04:47<@Rubidium>can't even spot a dip in Amsterdam's internet exchange throughput
04:48<Wolf01>Telegram is down, they are working on it
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>there was a power supply "hiccup" at DE-CIX a few weeks ago
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>as in "the backup generators ran out of fuel after 2 hours"
04:50<@Alberth>Airport Schiphol had very long queues due to power outage
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04:52<@Rubidium>why does checkin seems to be such an achilles heel for airports?
04:53*Eddi|zuHause mumbles something about bombs and skyscrapers
04:54<Wolf01>Now I'm doing something I didn't do for a LONG time, I'm reinstalling a WinXP laptop
04:55<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: lately I'm only hearing of huge delays on airports because the checkin system did not function for one reason or another
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04:55<Wolf01>Couldn't wait to get all those wild viruses again
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: would you rather hear of delays because the air traffic control system didn't work?
04:58<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: nope, but ATC not functioning has way more safe guards than airports closing entry roads due to check-in not working and due to that people walking with suitcases on the high way...
04:59<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i think the checkin system is probably uniquely qualified for huge delays because it a) is not safety relevant, so less rigorously tested and checked, and b) complex enough that _something_ will probably break (checking tickets against the database, routing baggage along conveyor belts, ...)
04:59<@Rubidium>those ATC people are trained to still function, although less efficiently, without radar and other electronic help. Only when the radio fails there's a huge problem, but even then planes can coordinate between eachother
05:01<@Rubidium>i.e. the pilots can and will communicate with eachother, but on the highway... they'll have barely any notice of people walking there
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>humans do weird stuff in large groups
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05:54<andythenorth_>90mph gronk?
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06:14<nielsm>hmm is there any patch that extends "disallow train reversing in stations" with a third option, where multiple units (with cabs at both ends) are allowed to reverse in stations but non-MUs are not?
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06:17<frosch123>there are newgrf which set the speed limit to something like 30 km/h when driving in a weird direction
06:19<nielsm>that would have to be combined with something that reverses the entire consist when the train reverses at end of line, right?
06:19<nielsm>meaning you'd get consists with no engine at the front
06:27<frosch123>let's say, it is comilicated :)
06:27<TrueBrain>[02:01] <peter1138> TrueBrain, hmm, git commit 60f0610a851 is strange, did moving that equation make a big CPU difference I wonder? <- I think this came from a profile; so most likely it was. We did a few optimizations based on profiles. I rarely do any optimizations unless I know it matters :)
06:38<TrueBrain>frosch123: OS check, do we want to keep support for the following: FreeBSD, DragonFly, OpenBSD, NetBSD, HP-UX, MorphOS, BeOS, Haiku, SunOS, Solaris, Cygwin, OS2, DOS, WINCE, PSP ?
06:41<frosch123>in the past two years we had contributions for some BSD and OS/2
06:41<frosch123>dos is only toyed on by rb and roboboy (or whatever nick he uses these days)
06:42<frosch123>hpux, morphos, beos, haiku, sunos, solaris, wince and psp i have not seen in the past 10 years
06:42<frosch123>i have no idea whether people use cygwin, or rather mingw
06:42<TrueBrain>we can aks glx that
06:42<TrueBrain>but I havent seen Cygwin in a long long time :)
06:43<TrueBrain>okay, so I will see if I can make Dockers for the BSDs. OS/2 .. well, nice gimmick, find by me (does it have a c++11 compiler?)
06:43<TrueBrain>DOS I will ask Rb, but I think that is fine too
06:43<TrueBrain>means I am going to make a commit to remove the others; espcially those with a lot of special code
06:46<@Alberth>you can also drop anything without c++11 support, I guess
06:46<TrueBrain>which is a bit hard to explore :)
06:46<@Alberth>not sure if that helps :)
06:47<nielsm>just check if clang exists for the platform?
06:47<TrueBrain>But stuff like PSP and WinCE are just experiments gone bad ...
06:47<TrueBrain>I checked in PSP :P
06:47<TrueBrain>nielsm: not a bad idea tbh
06:49<nielsm>if you have clang, X11, and OSS, I'd wager most real unices can be supported without any special handling
06:49<TrueBrain>and cmake :D
06:53<frosch123>TrueBrain: i guess when it comes to gcc, we only support g++ >= 6.0
06:54<frosch123>so, all the gcc 3/4 things can leave
06:54<TrueBrain>that would be a nice cleanup too
06:57<frosch123>though RHEL7 only has gcc 4.8
06:57<frosch123>which supports c++11 inofficially
06:57<frosch123>but no gc++14
06:58<TrueBrain>but we were going to do c++11, not? or c++14?
06:59<frosch123>i would prefer c++14, it finishes stuff that c++11 started
06:59<frosch123>i would say no to c++11 closures :p
06:59<TrueBrain>so we drop RHEL7? :)
06:59<frosch123>yep :)
06:59<TrueBrain>dont know what closures are :P
06:59<frosch123>lambda functions or annoynmous functions
07:00<frosch123>std::bind, but sane
07:03<LordAro>you can get newer compilers for RHEL
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07:25<FLHerne>andythenorth: Current FISH 2 (2.0.3) on Bananas is named 'Squid Ate Fish r1687' in the selection menu
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07:25<FLHerne>This is a bit confusing
07:25<andythenorth>the names seem to be really unreliable
07:25*FLHerne just spent a few minutes trying to get rid of whatever weird devel version was masking the stable release, until realising...
07:26<andythenorth>I've never worked out where OpenTTD gets the names from
07:26<andythenorth>we rewrote a newgrf makefile to try and eliminate this issue
07:27<andythenorth>but still happens, had a broken FIRS release recently due to this
07:28<andythenorth>I won't fix Squid, it's legacy now
07:28<andythenorth>just unfortunate :P
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07:32<Wolf01>Ha firefox... started from FF15, updated to 43, to 47, to 52esr and now is dowloading another update...
07:32<Wolf01>Downloading too
07:33<andythenorth>FLHerne: if there was a similar-sized alternative to the Growler, what would it be?
07:33<andythenorth>introduced sometime 1950-1975
07:34<FLHerne>31s for ubiquity, but a bit underpowered
07:34<FLHerne>(in RL, too...)
07:34<andythenorth>needs to be 8/8 long, at least if you squint
07:35<FLHerne>Would say 40, but a squashed 40 would be indistinguishable :P
07:36<andythenorth>yeah I had same thought
07:36<FLHerne>It's annoying that all the Modernisation Plan locos were so crap...
07:36<andythenorth>well Horse alllows faking
07:36<andythenorth>co-bo :P
07:36<andythenorth>too-long class 33
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07:37<FLHerne>You don't actually have a 47 yet, do you?
07:37<FLHerne>But you do have 57s, so meh
07:38<FLHerne>Warships aren't really comparable
07:39<andythenorth>the Dragon / Wizzo is kind of a warship
07:39<andythenorth>also kind of a western
07:40<andythenorth>could do a 50 and hobble the stats
07:40<andythenorth>but it would just look like the thunderbird
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07:40<FLHerne>I guess technically, some of the Standard steam locos are 'sometime 1950-...'
07:40<FLHerne>(but no)
07:41<Pikka>GT3 o/
07:41<andythenorth>class 38?
07:42<andythenorth>Pikka: you actually doing GT3? o_O
07:42<Pikka>no :P
07:42<FLHerne>Deltic for the express, and cut back the Dragon to be mixed-traffickey?
07:42<FLHerne>But then the Deltic still looks very 37ish at TT scale..
07:42<andythenorth>it's like that rule in Bill and Ted
07:42<andythenorth>"No Deltics"
07:43<andythenorth>oh it was Wayne's World but eh
07:43<FLHerne>UKRS2 has a GT3
07:43<FLHerne>Not sure why...
07:43<andythenorth>Led Zellepin policy
07:44<FLHerne>(correction, it's in the extension)
07:44<andythenorth>current lead contender is Class 75
07:44<andythenorth>and introduce it in 1975
07:45<andythenorth>dunno what it would look like though
07:45<FLHerne>Those funny Ivatt prototypes would be about right
07:45<FLHerne>(would still have the EE-family-look problem)
07:45<andythenorth>there's the big Southern 1
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07:46<andythenorth>right power band, unusual shape
07:46<andythenorth>but wrong era
07:47<andythenorth>I'd rather do the bulleid 0-6-0 in 1945 or so, then do a replacement for it in 1975
07:48<Pikka>that'a a nice prototype Class 40 you have there ;)
07:49<FLHerne>Well, yes
07:49<FLHerne>It just looks /slightly/ more different from a 37 :P
07:49<Pikka>I meant D16/2
07:49<Pikka>the 10000 was more like a prototype 37 :)
07:49<andythenorth>it doesn't solve my 1975 problem :)
07:50<andythenorth>how many bone-shaped engines can I do :P
07:50<Pikka>why do you need one? what's wrong with the 37? :)
07:50<andythenorth>I want to add an alternative
07:51<andythenorth>I've added a 'joker' roster
07:51<andythenorth>like UKRS 2 extended
07:51<andythenorth>no garratts though :P
07:52<FLHerne>Maybe do the 37 in 1960, then replace it by the 57/0 and add a stretched 67 for express?
07:52<FLHerne>^in 1990
07:53<andythenorth>could work
07:54<andythenorth>the 57 is really a 50
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07:54<andythenorth>put diesel engine in this? o_O
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07:57<andythenorth>I could fix the narrow gauge roster, and give the option of building entirely different railtype
07:57<andythenorth>which might be better than spamming more engines
07:58<peter1138>There was a spate of newgrfs that did that.
07:58<peter1138>Oh yeah, I was scrolled up :p
07:58<andythenorth>'did that' ? o_O
07:58<andythenorth>did what?
07:59<FLHerne>andythenorth: Isn't that just a class 128?
07:59<peter1138>fake reversing
07:59<peter1138>Hmm, so news and ticker working at normal speed in FFWD...
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08:01<peter1138>Heh, viewport scrolling speeds up in FFWD still.
08:06<andythenorth>irish GM bone thing?
08:06<andythenorth>that one's northern irish, to be strictly accurate
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08:20*nielsm thinks about how to modify the music system to support music renderers with pcm output instead of midi
08:20<nielsm>while still keeping midi support in too
08:27<TrueBrain>right .. removed 2 OSes, which were the most annoying :P (PSP and WinCE)
08:27<TrueBrain>others have less of a code impact it seems
08:27<nielsm>wince sounds like it depended on msvc6 support
08:28<TrueBrain>MorphOS and BeOS are next; they also have a few ifdefs around
08:31<frosch123>TrueBrain: what indentation style does source.list use?
08:31<frosch123>you switch from tabs to spaces
08:31<frosch123>in the wince diff
08:32<frosch123>well, i both diffs
08:35<TrueBrain>lemme fix
08:37<TrueBrain>bit annoying how my editor does that
08:38<peter1138>nielsm, music system probably won't care. You'd probably want to modify the mixer to dedicate 2 channels to music.
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08:39<peter1138>Fortunately the mixer is independent (for now) of the sound driver in use.
08:39<TrueBrain>and the PSP diff also had that frosch123 .. should be fixed now, I hope :)
08:39<TrueBrain>ffs :P
08:39<nielsm>peter1138 the music playback system would have to know how to handle non-midi files and send them to an appropriate decoder instead
08:39<frosch123>he, i was just questioning my browser cache :p
08:40<nielsm>also, am I reading right that the mixer runs at 11 kHz right now?
08:41<TrueBrain>frosch123: now! :)
08:42<nielsm>oh, I see the sound driver sets mixer rate
08:44<peter1138>non-midi? why?
08:44<nielsm>and for music purposes I think it would make more sense to have a partially separate system, since the mixer currently assumes all sounds are short samples, not continuous streams, so something where the music system gives the mixer a function/object pointer that then supplies samples to get mixed in as well
08:44<nielsm>well, things like mp3 files?
08:44<frosch123>TrueBrain: does jenkins currently build two revisions of the branch in parallel?
08:44<peter1138>Why would you want that?
08:44<nielsm>or an fm synth reading the dos version opl2 music
08:45<peter1138>nielsm, limit your scope.
08:45<peter1138>Stick with MIDI first.
08:45<nielsm>not allowed to dream? :)
08:45<peter1138>Get that working, then consider how to extend to other formats.
08:46<TrueBrain>frosch123: the CI can only do 1 thing at the time, so no?
08:46<TrueBrain>why do you ask?
08:46<frosch123> <- #4 and #5 are active
08:46<TrueBrain>owh, yes
08:46<TrueBrain>the master already picked it up
08:47<TrueBrain>but he cannot assign a node to work on
08:47<TrueBrain>this is because the master has a free slot .. but is not allowed to continue :D
08:47<TrueBrain>and this is because the master spins up a docker, and deligates the full job there .. just I told him he can only have 1 docker slave spinned up :)
08:48<TrueBrain>so master is now waiting for a slave to become available ..
08:48<TrueBrain>guess I could configure it differently, but meh :)
08:58<andythenorth>so if class 15 was (a) not crap (b) not scrapped (c) longer + more powerful?
08:59<andythenorth>looks french :P
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09:11<_dp_>if (t->growth_rate != 0xFFFF) ? t->growth_rate
09:11<_dp_>ha, that's where I fell asleep yesterday xD
09:21<nielsm>listening to ttd dos opl2 music in dosbox while reading the dosbox opl2/3/adlib emulation code
09:21<nielsm>it looks very manageable, and reversing the ttd dos opl2 music driver shouldn't be too bad, a cursory look makes it look very similar to the mpu401 one
09:23<FLHerne>andythenorth: I kinda like it
09:23<frosch123>does it sound any different to the general midi?
09:23<nielsm>well yes
09:23<nielsm>completely different
09:23<FLHerne>Not really a fan of fictional engines, but that's a pretty good one
09:24<nielsm> <- recordings from a (different) fm synth I made many many years ago
09:25<nielsm>how it sounded when I played it in the mid-90's :)
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09:28<peter1138>TTO theme was much better.
09:28<nielsm>it's soothing
09:28<peter1138>Very similar though.
09:28<andythenorth>FLHerne: it's a possibility
09:28<andythenorth>co-co version of this, 1945 or so
09:29<andythenorth>or I make it look more like a 58 and put it in 1975
09:29<andythenorth>the main thing is that engines look different :P
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09:35<TrueBrain>wow, Haiku is still an actively maintained OS ..
09:35<TrueBrain>so is MorphOS
09:36<frosch123>i think heise had an headline about a new morphos release last year
09:36<nielsm>well, so are various games dating back 20+ years too :)
09:36<TrueBrain>guess for now I will only be removing BeOS .. as that really is a dead OS :)
09:44<Wolf01>Mmmh, lapdog with XP is just as slow as before... dunno... it was really fast for the first 2 restarts, now it takes again 10-12 minutes to be ready for work
09:46<@Alberth>it downloaded old performance characteristics for your type of computer and adaped :p
09:47<Wolf01>Planned obsolescence
09:47<@Alberth>maybe it's trying to download non-existing updates or so
09:48<Wolf01>I think is the antivirus
09:52<TrueBrain>right, enough of removing OSes for now :)
09:56<frosch123>he, there was even a STR_OSNAME_BEOS :p
09:56<TrueBrain>we used to do that for every OS .. but that stopped at some point I guess
09:56<TrueBrain>some even "translated" it :P
09:57<frosch123>sending translator to wiki :)
09:59<peter1138>"All checks have failed"
09:59<frosch123>no idea whether "BEOS_NET_SERVER" would also be used by haiku
09:59<TrueBrain>that is a good question frosch123 .. I assumed it wasn't
10:00<TrueBrain>but that was an assumption
10:00<TrueBrain>cannot really test Haiku ..
10:00<TrueBrain>meh, maybe I should forget about this PR for now
10:00<TrueBrain>first figure out if we want to support Haiku, and if it can be added to the CI someway
10:00<frosch123>meh, more commit hook exceptions
10:02<LordAro>TrueBrain: probably not worth the effort of adding it to CI, although it'd be good to build releases for it
10:02<TrueBrain>LordAro: tomato tomato
10:03<TrueBrain>not saying it should be linked to every PR btw
10:03<TrueBrain>just that once a week orso all targets are tested
10:03<TrueBrain>avoids big surprises whena release approaches :)
10:03<LordAro>yeah, that sort of thing
10:05<frosch123>LordAro: you could also prepare a PR that (1) checks for changed baseset translations, and runs (2) src/script/api/ and (3) src/script/api/
10:06<frosch123>(1) is something eints currently doesn't, but maybe should?
10:06<frosch123>(2) and in consequence (3) are forgotten all the time
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10:09<TrueBrain>frosch123: dont forget projects/generate :)
10:09<frosch123>i thought you wanted to remove that :p
10:09<TrueBrain>over time, sure, but that won't be next week :)
10:09<TrueBrain>if cmake works, I expect that we will have both system for a full release
10:13*andythenorth trainshedding not bikeshedding
10:13<andythenorth>100 trains to draw, and I'm obsessing about adding another one, or not :P
10:14<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: DOS' latest GCC is 7.3.0, so compiler wise it's definitely new enough... though I think you need to cross-compile from Windows
10:15<TrueBrain>sounds like a challenge
10:15<TrueBrain>how is the endian PR going Rubidium? :)
10:15<@Rubidium>LA hasn't made it yet ;(
10:16<TrueBrain>you have the diffs ... why not do it yourself?
10:16<TrueBrain>you also have a github account!
10:20<TrueBrain>how rude :(
10:20<TrueBrain>no benefit in making me happy
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10:36<@Rubidium>so I have to recover the account and go through another 20+ steps just for one patch (don't have an intention and/or time to pick further development up in the near future) that make your live easier
10:36<TrueBrain>20+ steps? Holy crap, what were you planning to do
10:36<TrueBrain>but: yes :D
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10:37<TrueBrain>if only you knew your password ... than it would be 2 minutes :P But yes .. now knowing your passwords is annoying :)
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10:45<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I guess your patch misses the part for MSVC?
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10:45<TrueBrain>or do those project files not use it?
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10:51<TrueBrain>Rubidium: #6762
10:53<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: MSVC defined either WIN32 or WIN64, which (before the changes in endian_type) already hard code the endianness
10:53<TrueBrain>tnx :)
10:53<TrueBrain>removing more fat!
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11:30<markyisri>I have a question about the OpenTTD gameplay manual/wiki. Is is possible to download an offline copy?
11:31<LordAro>theres a "Printable version" link on the left side
11:31<LordAro>as for downloading the whole thing though, any sort of web scraper can probably do that for you
11:31<TrueBrain>maybe a better question would be why you want to do that? Wikis tend to be rather large with not-so-useful information?
11:31<_dp_>do people even live offline?
11:32<LordAro>there's an awful lot on the wiki that's out of date
11:32<markyisri>I wanted a comprehensive guide to refer to while learning. I downloaded the game yesterday.
11:32<TrueBrain>any wiki is out-of-date before the save button is pressed the first time LordAro ;)
11:33<TrueBrain>learn by playing :D But yeah .. I dont really have an answer honestly
11:33<LordAro>markyisri: i'd probably suggest that the only pages you need are Signals and Orders
11:33<LordAro>everything else is fairly intuative for first time
11:34<markyisri>Thanks for the advice
11:34<LordAro>but good luck! hope you enjoy it :)
11:35<TrueBrain>he will enjoy it! Just the question is .. when will he go to sleep tonight :D
11:35<markyisri>I have enjoyed it already
11:35<markyisri>I was toying around with it while following a 25-minute video tutorial I found on Youtube
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11:37<TrueBrain>even after 15 years people can surprise you :P
11:38<TrueBrain>video tutorial on youtube
11:38<TrueBrain>couldn't even predict thatone
11:38<LordAro>oh yes, that's basically how people learn games these days
11:38<LordAro>minecraft started it, i guess
11:44<frosch123>hmm, too late
11:44<frosch123>i wanted to post the only yt signal tutorial where the author actually understood them
11:45<frosch123> <- for reference
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11:45<frosch123>TrueBrain: there are extensive ottd let's plays, even channels dedicated to mostly ottd
11:46<frosch123>a few months back some yt douche wanted to impersonate abuse@ and dmca a competitive channel
11:47<TrueBrain>...... right ...
11:47<TrueBrain>I forgot that people can go really low
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12:11<peter1138>TrueBrain, yeah, people seem to just watch other people doing stuff these days, instead of just reading.
12:12<peter1138>Well that too.
12:12<_dp_>You won't get very far in OpenTTD by just playing :p
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12:46<nielsm>frosch123: there you go
12:47<_dp_>tried hard not to change anything with this patch:
12:48<_dp_>kinda failed tho xD
12:48<frosch123>nielsm: yay, now 20 minutes of jenkins :)
12:49<frosch123>well, or 40
12:49<+glx>yes the other PR is using the ressources :)
12:50<nielsm>the osx build seems to be significantly slower than the rest, or is it just me?
13:00<andythenorth>it's slow for me locally
13:00<andythenorth>takes a couple of minutes
13:01<nielsm>I suppose I should do some testing of the non-windows dos music loading code too, from ther other PR
13:01<TrueBrain>Rubidium: merged your endian-removal patches :) Tnx again
13:02<nielsm>since I can just call it from the win32 midi player regardless
13:04<nielsm>first bug found!
13:06<TrueBrain>may it be your last :)
13:06<nielsm>forgot to skip the path separator when generating the temp filename for the .mid file to be written
13:07<nielsm>so it'd have made filenames like 0/GMCAT.mid instead of 0GMCAT.mid
13:08<nielsm>is it reasonable to write those to the content_download/baseset/ directory?
13:11<nielsm>(the unreasonable part might be that the files get re-written each time the song starts, I haven't made a mechanism to check for file already existing, and am not sure how much verification that it's really the right thing would be appropriate)
13:14<frosch123>when ottd downloads a musicset from bananas, it uncompresses the content into a separate folder
13:14<frosch123>i would treat the CAT files like archives
13:15<nielsm>so instead make it content_download/baseset/GM.CAT/0.mid
13:15<frosch123>so uncompresing GM.CAT results in GMCAT/0.mid or somthing
13:15<frosch123>first i wanted to suggest "GM/0.mid", but that would conflict with the win music
13:15<nielsm>and just assume the file is correct if it exists
13:16<frosch123>likely you are also not allowed to name the directory identical to the file, so "GM.CAT/" is also invalid :p
13:16<nielsm>usually GM.CAT would be in baseset/ in the install dir, not in content_download/baseset/
13:16<nielsm>since you don't download the cat files from bananas
13:17<frosch123>true, but people drop their stuff wherever :p
13:18<frosch123>how do you plan to make the .obm?
13:19<frosch123>should the .obm refer to GM.CAT or to GMCAT/ ?
13:20<nielsm>I'm not sure if it should be named lowercase or uppercase in the .obm file actually
13:21<frosch123>""? i doubt it was named like that :p
13:22<nielsm>yes you have to rename it
13:22<nielsm>it's named in both original and deluxe
13:23<frosch123>we also support both dos graphics without needing to rename them
13:23<frosch123>but i see, that would conflict with the unpacking
13:23<nielsm>I also made myself a "original_remix.obm" that uses the theme from TTO but the rest from TTD, and just adds the TTD theme as another song on Ezy Street
13:24<nielsm>but part of what happens is also that the music driver doesn't *have* to write a .mid file to disk to play it, the new win32 driver plays the decoded "mps midi" (as I call it internally) from memory
13:25<TrueBrain>glx: is Cygwin still a thing? Or can we just kill it?
13:26<TrueBrain>nielsm: do you think there is a solution for #6750 ? Or shall we promote it to an issue and leave it for another day to be solved? :)
13:27<TrueBrain>frosch123: nice going with the way you give feedback in PRs. I really like the tone and attention you give to it :) Kudos to you :)
13:27<nielsm>uh the VBS script could be fixed but it'll be bothersome
13:27<+glx>cygwin still exist, latest version is from february
13:27<frosch123>TrueBrain: trying my best :p
13:28<nielsm>I entered sysadmin world after powershell became a thing so I'm not at all fluent in vbscript ;)
13:28<frosch123>but actually i just leave the closing to others :p
13:28<TrueBrain>haha :D
13:28<TrueBrain>nielsm: if only spanish is the issue, I am somewhat tempted to just hard-code it :P
13:29<nielsm>oh like, "if filename is spanish.txt write spanish_MX.txt, and if filename is spanish_MX.txt then write spanish.txt" or such?
13:29<nielsm>that's evil
13:30<frosch123>TrueBrain: wasn't the concusion that linux should sort based on basename, without extension?
13:30<TrueBrain>frosch123: I read a lot of weird suggestions :D
13:30<TrueBrain>holy crap, generate.vbs is annoying with all the OK dialogs
13:30<nielsm>I'm actually surprised you have mexican spanish separate, but not brazilian vs european portuguese
13:31<TrueBrain>tnx btw, glx, guess we will leave CygWin alone for now :P
13:31<+glx>nielsm: check better
13:31<frosch123>nielsm: they both exist, but use different filenames
13:31<nielsm>TrueBrain, run it from commandline, "cscript generate.vbs"
13:31<nielsm>that's just not ISO-like at all!
13:32<+glx>we could just rename spanish_MX to mexican_spanish
13:32<frosch123>please don't :p that breaks too much
13:32<TrueBrain>we will overcome :P
13:32<nielsm>or rename spanish.txt to spanish_EU.txt
13:32<TrueBrain>eints just needs a pat on the back :P
13:33<frosch123>i think game scripts are the issue
13:33<+glx>scripts use filenames ?
13:33<frosch123>tmwftlb? :p
13:34<frosch123>glx: yes
13:35<+glx>but openttd itself doesn't care about the filename, that's silly scripts are using it
13:39<frosch123>no ottd does
13:39<frosch123>ottd expects script translations to use the same filename as the ottd translation
13:43<@Alberth>no ##grflang identification in AI/Game scripts
13:48<TrueBrain>nielsm: okay, I think I found a clean way without going to hacking :)
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13:48<TrueBrain>first I tried to make Vbs do the right thing .. but even a manual Sort() gave a different result .. silly Vbs :P
13:48<TrueBrain>and what a horrible scripting language
13:50<frosch123>i would have put the sed script into single quotes
13:50<frosch123>too many $ and ~
13:50<TrueBrain>I just moved code
13:51<TrueBrain>did not want to reinvent too much :)
13:51<TrueBrain>the sed clearly has been working for years, so .. yeah :P
13:51<TrueBrain>(I do agree with you btw :) )
13:51<frosch123>oh, did not notice that it was moved
13:51<TrueBrain>its 2 lines lower! :P
13:51<frosch123>i just assumed that the first sed removed the extension and the second readded it
13:52<TrueBrain>with these things I always try to find the bare minimum to fix it with :)
13:52<TrueBrain>too scred :D
13:52<TrueBrain>funny, 3 languages already updated their strings :P
13:52<nielsm>argh why is FioCreateDirectory marked 'static' in fileio.cpp
13:53<TrueBrain>still surprised by the dedication of our translators
13:53<TrueBrain>nielsm: because nobody ever needed it outside of flileio.cpp? Something easily fixed? :)
13:55<frosch123>one PR referencing another is weird
13:55<TrueBrain>it made me giggle
13:55<TrueBrain>I could have made a PR to his fork
13:56<TrueBrain>but we should have made an issue out of it first
13:56<TrueBrain>than reference them from PRs
13:56<TrueBrain>GitHub used to do that
13:56<TrueBrain>guess something with overhead
13:56<TrueBrain>I will remove it from my commit message on squashing frosch123 :)
13:58<+glx>quickly testing on mingw but it should be ok
13:58<+glx>well bash and mingw are never quick ;)
13:58<TrueBrain>yeah .. I had the same issue while testing
13:59<TrueBrain>worse for me was, to test it on linux I first had to drag it in a git on a linux mount (\r\n issues)
13:59<TrueBrain>which was WEIRD
13:59<TrueBrain>but I am happy with WSL
13:59<TrueBrain>lot easier to develop for both OSes
13:59<nielsm>yay now it created content_download/baseset/GM-TTOCAT/0.mid
14:00<nielsm>as intended
14:00<+glx>mingw still works as before :)
14:01<TrueBrain>glx: is that a good or bad thing? :)
14:03<frosch123>haha, we have a jenkins queue of over an hour
14:04<TrueBrain>yeah .....
14:04<frosch123>TrueBrain: should we buy another vps with a few more cores?
14:04<TrueBrain>I really either need more CPU power, or make the CI incremental, or install ccache
14:04<TrueBrain>frosch123: if we can afford it :P
14:04<frosch123>i doubt aws would be free, and aws is 3 times more expensive than some vps
14:05<frosch123>(according to my computation last night)
14:05<TrueBrain>we can look at the AWS instances that .. what was it called ...
14:05<nielsm>hm should I put the minor change to fileio.cpp & fileio_func.h in a separate commit or just "hide" it along with the feature code that depends on it?
14:05<TrueBrain>yeah, normal AWS instances are very expensive if you compare them to dedicated servers
14:05<nielsm>AWS you can pay per minute basically
14:05<TrueBrain>and you have this instance type
14:05<nielsm>if you just shut down the instance when you don't need it
14:05<TrueBrain>which is cheap, but not always available
14:06<TrueBrain>AWS Spot instances
14:06<TrueBrain>those are a lot cheaper
14:06<TrueBrain>but might not be available etc
14:07<andythenorth>jenkins has support for AWS spot
14:07<andythenorth>it can stop and start nodes, but you tend to run with a pool of them available AIUI
14:07<andythenorth>it's very cheap, until it's not
14:09<frosch123>TrueBrain: <- something from the C2 series, like C2-60
14:10<frosch123>unless the billing rounds to whole hours :p
14:12<nielsm>here have some more for the jenkins queue
14:23<TrueBrain>okay, math time
14:23<TrueBrain>we had 50 PRs in, what, a month
14:23<TrueBrain>which resulted in, what, 150 CI hits?
14:23<TrueBrain>lets say it doubles
14:24<TrueBrain>means 300 CI hits per month, 10 a day, 1 every 2 hours
14:24<TrueBrain>we currently use 2 cores, build takes, what, 20 minutes .. make that 30
14:24<TrueBrain>so 50% load on a single core
14:25<TrueBrain>lets keep things simple, say we double again, 600 CI hits a month
14:25<TrueBrain>means we need 1 core
14:26<TrueBrain>@calc 0.062 * 24 * 30
14:26<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 44.64
14:26<TrueBrain>so 45 euro on your URL, for 2 cores
14:26<TrueBrain>@calc 0.062 * 24 * 30 * .121
14:26<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 5.40144
14:26<TrueBrain>@calc 0.062 * 24 * 30 * 1.21
14:26<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 54.0144
14:26<TrueBrain>sorry, 55 euro
14:27<frosch123>prices are linear for more cores
14:27<TrueBrain>so, 27 euros
14:27<TrueBrain>for 42 euro a month we can buy a dedicated server similar to what we have now .. with 8 cores
14:27<TrueBrain>just doesnt scale as well (no burst)
14:27<TrueBrain>well, 4 cores, 8 HT
14:28<TrueBrain>so ... 10 euro with no burst vs 27 euros with burst
14:29<TrueBrain>lets see .. AWS spot .. 2 vCPUs, 0.0317 per hour
14:29<TrueBrain>@calc 0.0317 * 24 * 30
14:29<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 22.824
14:30<TrueBrain>so 22 euro per month, but for 2 cores, so 11 euro
14:30<TrueBrain>with burst
14:30<TrueBrain>but no guarantees
14:30<TrueBrain>linear with CPU too
14:30<frosch123>there are also "no guarantees" on the ovh site
14:30<frosch123>at the bottom
14:30<andythenorth>AWS limit how many spot instances you can buy also
14:30<andythenorth>and then it gets expensive to add more to your account
14:31<TrueBrain>but we only need 4 or so
14:31<andythenorth>not sure how that works, but doubling our Jenkins would cost something like 3x or 4x as much
14:31<andythenorth>at work
14:31<andythenorth>I am hazy on the details :P
14:31<TrueBrain>but EC2 Spot is the cheapest solution for us I guess
14:31<andythenorth>anyway, I can sponsor x amount per month
14:31<andythenorth>I used to sponsor coop, but that seems to not be a thing
14:32<frosch123>@calc 300*40/60*0.01
14:32<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 2
14:32<TrueBrain>would mean we have to pay AWS around 20 euro per month for it, give or take a few
14:32<+michi_cc>For the OVH cloud I read lots of 'Billed to the nearest hour'.
14:32<andythenorth>I can do like £15 / month
14:32<TrueBrain>they almost always are billed to the next hour, honestly :)
14:32<andythenorth>how much do we have orudge? o_O
14:32<frosch123>2 euro per month :p
14:32<frosch123>i have no idea what this "no guarantee" means :p
14:32<TrueBrain>andythenorth: we havent had a fundraiser in years; nuff said
14:33<TrueBrain>frosch123: if you dont say what you calculate, it means very little to me :)
14:33<andythenorth>frosch123: 'no guarantee' _usually_ means contended instances
14:33<andythenorth>and they can go away at no notice
14:33<frosch123>TrueBrain: you said 300 hits per month, 40 cpu minutes per hit
14:33<frosch123>@calc 300*40/60*0.085/2
14:33<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 8.5
14:34<frosch123>i don't get your 27 euros
14:34<frosch123>though i skipped VAT
14:34<TrueBrain>I calculated 50% load on a single core, with 300 hits per month, and say 30 minutes per hit
14:35<TrueBrain>so to make calculations easier, as round to an hour will fuck us over
14:35<TrueBrain>say 100% load on a single core
14:35<TrueBrain>means if you look at the price for a single core, it will always be under, never over
14:35<TrueBrain>they ask 0.062 euro per hour for 2 cores
14:35<TrueBrain>@calc 0.062 * 24 * 30 * 1.21
14:35<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 54.0144
14:35<TrueBrain>24 hours in a day, 30 days in a month, + VAT
14:36<frosch123>but that is for constant usage
14:36<TrueBrain>1 CPU core at 100% load
14:36<TrueBrain>is pretty constant yes
14:36<TrueBrain>that was the whole point of picking that :)
14:36<frosch123>@calc 0.062 * 20/60 * 300 * 1.21
14:36<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 7.502
14:37<frosch123>your computations are far away from the 300 hits
14:37<TrueBrain>yes, it assumes we will have 4 times more PR than we have now, but .. with the rounding of the hours, it most likely doesnt matter if we have 300 CI hits or 1200
14:37<TrueBrain>yes ... I said that
14:37<TrueBrain>300 hits with 30 minutes is ~50% .. I doubled that
14:38<andythenorth>if it runs out of nodes stuff will just queue up no?
14:38<TrueBrain>these "per hour" prices basically means: every CI hit will cost an hour
14:38<TrueBrain>so if we keep the 300, it would mean
14:38<TrueBrain>@calc 0.062 * 300 * 1.21
14:38<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 22.506
14:38<TrueBrain>22 euros
14:39<TrueBrain>either way, the numbers were not that relevant to me, more how they compare to each other
14:39<TrueBrain>basically, OVH cloud is expensive, as is EC2
14:39<TrueBrain>EC2 spot is cheap, about as expensive as our own dedicated server
14:39<TrueBrain>EC2 spot can only scale
14:39<TrueBrain>so it is a balance game; what do we want
14:39<TrueBrain>consistant throughput, or burst
14:39<frosch123>to me it looks we need burst on weekend
14:40<TrueBrain>so EC2 Spot is a good candidate in that case
14:40<frosch123>which may mean that we can go for the SANDBOX thing, when no business uses them
14:40<frosch123> <- at the bottom
14:40<frosch123>1/8 the price, but no guarantees
14:40<frosch123>whatever that means :p
14:41<TrueBrain>AWS does the same .. but I guess AWS is a bit bigger :P
14:41<TrueBrain>higher chance they are available :D
14:41<TrueBrain>I think 2 GB is not enough btw .. had issues when the VM was running on 2GB
14:42<TrueBrain>wow, Windows is expensie :o
14:42<TrueBrain>"from the three available" continues to list 4
14:42<frosch123>60% more or so
14:43<TrueBrain>no SANDBOX for Windows :P
14:43<TrueBrain>and almost double for the C2-7 for example
14:44<TrueBrain>either way, these things, are really a matter of trying
14:44<TrueBrain>no clue how they work and how well they work
14:44<TrueBrain>and the other approach is simply adding ccache for the linux CIs :P
14:44<TrueBrain>would drop their times drasticly
14:44<TrueBrain>just shit-annoyed AWS never replied :(
14:46<TrueBrain>glx: did mingw work with my generate fix? (did it produce no diff on my branch)?
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14:58<+glx>TrueBrain: yes it works, still produces the same diff as generate.vbs
14:58<+glx>hence the work as before ;)
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15:32<TrueBrain>@calc 0.062 / 2 * 1.21
15:32<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 0.03751
15:33<TrueBrain>@calc 0.0317 / 2
15:33<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 0.01585
15:33<TrueBrain>@calc 0.014 / 2
15:33<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 0.007
15:34<TrueBrain>frosch123: another way of saying this, the above are the prices per CI run :D (OVH Cloud, AWS Spot, OVH SANDBOX)
15:34<TrueBrain>so we can charge people to create their PR to cover it :D
15:34<LordAro>in USD?
15:35<frosch123>ok, then i only found the wrong aws stuff
15:35<LordAro>OVH has sponsored OTTD in the past...
15:35<frosch123>sponsoring does not work if you have noone to contantly run after them
15:35<TrueBrain>EC2 spot
15:36<frosch123>at which point you have to compare it to your salary :p
15:36<TrueBrain>only works for jenkins stuff .. not for hosting etc
15:40<frosch123>fpga instances? who uses that?
15:40<frosch123>people who want to decrypt stuff?
15:45<TrueBrain>any specific job I guess ..
15:47<andythenorth>sponsoring bla
15:47<andythenorth>h blah
15:47<andythenorth>I was paying £15 / month for world of tanks
15:47<andythenorth>and it's not even pay-to-win :P
15:47<LordAro>andythenorth: oh dear
15:47<andythenorth>I can cover some cloud hosting
15:47<LordAro>you're one of *those* people
15:48<andythenorth>I quit WoT
15:51<TrueBrain>I thought you paid us with your grumpyness every day andy?
15:52<andythenorth>WoT made me grumpy :P
15:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: Wow, is production in FIRS 3 supposed to be this high?!
15:55<FLHerne>My brand-new, unfed Orchard & Piggery produces 185t of fruit per month...
15:56<nielsm>FLHerne on the other hand, it can't ever increase to 2000 t/month
15:56<andythenorth>although you got lucky with randomisation there
15:56<FLHerne>The other ones are all >100
15:56<FLHerne>This is going to be a pain with my little 15t steam lorries :P
15:57<nielsm>part of the challenge with FIRS is that you basically have to server lots and lots of industries to get large amounts of raw materials, and also send supplies back
15:57<andythenorth>depends on the economy
15:57<FLHerne>nielsm: Yes, I've played with FIRS before, just not this version
15:57<andythenorth>but yeah
15:58<andythenorth>previously farms were smaller and clustered densely
15:58<andythenorth>in 3 they are larger (higher production) and cluster less densely
15:58<FLHerne>In the older one, initial production is 3-4 dozen, so you really have to use supplies to get a decent output
15:59<FLHerne>I can't imagine ever /wanting/ to feed supplies to these, they'll be enough of a pain to serve as it is
16:00<FLHerne>Hm, wasn't there a parameter for production level once? 'Generous' etc. ?
16:00<FLHerne>Or is my memory playing tricks?
16:01<andythenorth>there's a parameter for effect of supplies
16:02<andythenorth>most FIRS primaries can be served by two trains around TL5
16:02<andythenorth>some get randomised up to 400 units or so / month
16:02<andythenorth>which needs TL8 or 3 trains
16:02<FLHerne>Aargh, even the original industry has silly production levels
16:03<FLHerne>Well, at least it's open-source
16:03<andythenorth>it's easy to adjust
16:03<andythenorth>the net production is about the same as you'd get previously from 3 clustered farms
16:04<andythenorth>but now there is less yak-shaving to collect it
16:04<FLHerne>Yeah, where's the fun in that? :P
16:05<andythenorth>there's a reason FIRS 2 has a different grfid :P
16:05<andythenorth>still on bananas eh
16:06<FLHerne>That's a point, might be easier
16:06<FLHerne>OTOH, I do already have a FIRS checkout
16:08<andythenorth>ha ha
16:08<andythenorth>that's the Little Bear engine in Horse 1
16:08<andythenorth>except we completely invented the Little Beaer
16:10<FLHerne>New firs doesn't like being built in a git-hg checkout
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16:10<andythenorth>I'd switch to git...but eh :(
16:13<FLHerne>Meh, I can hack bin/hg-info to return nonsense :P
16:14<FLHerne>Oh, I don't even need to do that
16:19*FLHerne sets REPO_VERSION to 9999, wcgw
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16:33<peter1138>andythenorth, DO IT
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16:38*andythenorth also bye
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17:47<Eddi|zuHause>anyone here have any clue how to diagnose windows performance problems? this system is really really slow, says disk I/O is at 100%, but only like 1MB/s
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19:40<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i sorta isolated it to "tile data model server" service... but 1) no tiles should be active, and 2) it restarts immediately when i stop it
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 30 00:00:51 2018