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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-05-02

---Logopened Wed May 02 00:00:54 2018
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02:24<andythenorth>moin
02:29<peter1138>hi
02:29<andythenorth>supermop you there? o_O
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06:44<Pokka>nobody here but us chickens
06:46<peter1138>POKK
06:46<peter1138>wot larks
06:53<Pokka>oh dear
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07:35<peter1138>Hmm, suppose I should try the newest UKRS3
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07:47<V453000>is pokk how you say chicken sounds in english_
07:47<V453000>?
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07:51<peter1138>Hmm, kinda?
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08:24<Pikka>if you do, peter1138, what do you think of the double-size buy menu sprites? yes/no/optional?
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>what about people who use double size gui?
08:26<Pikka>I don't know. does it also double the vehicle sprites?
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>i think so
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>not sure
08:30<peter1138>Yeah, no.
08:30<peter1138>2x gui also uses 2x buy menu sprites.
08:30<peter1138>So I'd say stick with the normal sprites.
08:31<peter1138>If I want it doubled I'll use 2x gui :)
08:31<peter1138>And... same for 4x :p
08:35<peter1138>Hmm, I've done something wrong, it's not showing up :p
08:36<peter1138>Ah, missing libxdg-basedir
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i should probably go shopping in the next 5 hours...
08:37<peter1138>https://www.amazon.co.uk/
08:37<peter1138>.co.uk may not be appropriate, unless you are buying for me.
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so... :p
08:37<peter1138>There's lots of Lego on there, for instance.
08:39<peter1138>Ah yeah, no Pikka, take those double-size sprites out please
08:39<Pikka>already done :)
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08:39<markyisri>Hi, this may be the wrong place to ask, but I tried to join the OpenTTD reddit server 1 and I don't understand how I am supposed to join a company. They are all protected by a password.
08:40<Pikka>start a new company, markyisri
08:40<peter1138>Pikka, it gets ridiculous with 2x GUI, which I normally use :)
08:40<markyisri>can't
08:40<markyisri>there are already 15 of them I think
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08:40<peter1138>I guess you need to find a less-full server then.
08:40<peter1138>Hah
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08:41<peter1138>markyisri, I guess you need to find a less-full server then.
08:41<markyisri>peter1138: OK I will try a different one
08:41<Pikka>or ask someone if you can join their company, or wait... I think it clears out unoccupied companies after a few hours
08:42<peter1138>Pikka, a reason to be careful about using buy-menu specific sprites, if you only have a 1x version of that then it will be pixel doubled at 2x, and the rest of the sprites which do have 2x views will be high res. Would look odd.
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08:42<peter1138>I think the engine-tender gap is fine, myself.
08:43<peter1138>I should get myself an 8K screen just so 4x GUI has a reason to exist.
08:43<Pikka>I'd only done the double-sized for the locos, so yes, there was a mismatch. but yep, I'll revert everything to 1x. maybe I should get the biggui :P
08:44<peter1138>Pikka, don't get biggui, it's old and doesn't work properly.
08:44<peter1138>Just need to be "double size" in "interface size" on the options screen.
08:44<peter1138>s/be/pick/
08:44<Pikka>oic
08:45<peter1138>so basically, do your buy menu sprites as 2x, but mark them as 2x properly.
08:46<peter1138>however that is done.
08:46<peter1138>Then the game will show it right.
08:46<peter1138>I guess you don't actually need to draw a 1x version.
08:47<Pikka>no, I don't. all the sprites are 2x, and the double-sized buymenu was done simply by coding them as normal instead of 2x.
08:47<Pikka>so it was very easy to revert :)
08:47<peter1138>*nod*
08:47<peter1138>Cool.
08:48<peter1138>Also, is it just me or does window resizing not work properly? At least with SDL.
08:49<peter1138>Seems to add the height of the titlebar to the window on every mouse-pointer move.
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea when i last tried to resize a window
08:53<peter1138>Really?
08:54<peter1138>I mean the window for the whole game, not a window in game.
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>oh, i don't think i have resized the game window in like 10 years :p
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>it's always maximized
08:54<__ln__>game years or real-life years
08:54<peter1138>Odd.
08:55<peter1138>I've not played OpenTTD fullscreen since... since playing at 800x600 on a CRT.
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08:55<Eddi|zuHause>not fullscreen, just maximised
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i just tried resizing on the title screen, it flickers a lot
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>as in goes to black and redraws
08:56<peter1138>Yeah, that seems to happen.
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>but nothing else seems to be odd
09:04<peter1138>Yeah, seems like the call to SDL_SetVideoMode() is messing up.
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09:19<peter1138>Didn't someone have an SDL 2.0 patch?
09:20<peter1138>Let's switch to glfw :p
09:20<peter1138>Requires everyone to use OpenGL though.
09:21<peter1138>Also, our input event handling it shit.
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09:25<LordAro>you should rewrite it
09:25<peter1138>L*
09:25<peter1138>:(
09:25<peter1138>I'm tempted.
09:25<peter1138>But I keep getting deeper and deeper rabbit holes.
09:26<LordAro>hehe
09:26<LordAro>i'm doing that right now
09:26<peter1138>So the drivers all set some random global variable, and then call another function with no parameters.
09:26<peter1138>That function then tests all these variables to find out what happened.
09:27<peter1138>Why not 1) just pass it in parameters directly 2) use different functions for different events...
09:28<peter1138>Also our onClick is handle on mouse button press.
09:28<peter1138>In most UIs (except, say, menus), onClick would be handled on mouse button release.
09:29<peter1138>Tab switching, is mouse down, but we don't have tabs.
09:29<peter1138>Well, sort of do, they're just buttons though.
09:30<peter1138>Ok, maybe it's just buttons that should be on button release :)
09:31<LordAro>buttons have to depress on ...press though?
09:31<peter1138>yes
09:32<peter1138>they normally activate on release though, so you can click, then move off the button and release, and nothing happens
09:33<peter1138>Anyway that's minor
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10:17<peter1138>Hmm, Jenkins playing up, it built the same PR commit twice :S
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10:35<Eddi|zuHause>"doppelt hält besser"
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12:59<Wolf01>o/
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13:31<peter1138>Hmm, gonna be some wet trails out there tonight.
13:32<Wolf01>Hmm?
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13:33<peter1138>MTB ride in the woods tonight.
13:34<Wolf01>Do you have the mudguards?
13:35<peter1138>Ish.
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13:57<frosch123>_dp_: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6763/files#diff-2e3543c333838e2f3b92cbf76235777b <- there is still some change. why did lordaro cause so much confusion :p
13:59<LordAro>:(
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14:01<frosch123>poop lordaro, everyone bashes him :) where is yorick?
14:01<frosch123>*poor
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14:09<_dp_>frosch123, what do you mean? should I not add anything to that comment?
14:13<andythenorth>hi
14:13<_dp_>frosch123, I initially assumed that comment should be edited as part of release cycle, not patch, but then that discussion started and you kind of supported it, so now I'm totally confused xD
14:14<frosch123>_dp_: currently you change 1.8.x into 1.8.0
14:14<frosch123>just don't modify that line :)
14:15<_dp_>frosch123, so, add "198" line but not change 197...?
14:15<frosch123>yep
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: all (future) 1.8.x releases will still use the old savegame version
14:16<frosch123>(i would not have cared bout the 198 line being added or not, but 197 should not be changed)
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14:17<andythenorth>Pikka is it civil yet?
14:18<_dp_>frosch123, ok, changed it back
14:18<Pikka>moderately
14:18<andythenorth>I've invented a new game mode for OpenTTD
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>battle royale?
14:19<andythenorth>instead of playing as a company, play as minor deity
14:19<andythenorth>and sort out what the AIs are doing
14:19<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, what do you mean by that? I looked at version 194-195 when I was changing the comment
14:19<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9030/more%20civil.png
14:20<nielsm>lung cancer?
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: i don't know what those lines say
14:20<Pikka>oh dear andythenorth
14:20<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, 194 26881 1.5.x, 1.6.0; 195 27572 1.6.x
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: what i meant was that minor releases cannot change the savegame version, if trunk bumped savegame version inbetween
14:21<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, well, apparently it was changed in 1.6.1
14:21<Pikka>I'm supposed to be spriting but I keep tinkering with it, I'm improving the bus stop building, which is the oldest part of the code :)
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: well, it can be done if there was no trunk bump
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>then trunk and release can bump simultaneously
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>(for varying degrees of "simultaneous")
14:23*andythenorth wonders how to name the new game
14:23<andythenorth>'somewhat deity'
14:23<Wolf01>"game new #4____"
14:24<Wolf01>Or like my saves: "w", "w1", "wwwwww"
14:24<@Alberth>game20180502 :)
14:25<andythenorth>I didn't mean the save :P
14:25<andythenorth>this is a new game mode :P
14:25<andythenorth>AIs make a mess, your goal is to tidy it up
14:25<frosch123>"sheeple"
14:25<andythenorth>you get ~money and ~unrestricted building
14:25*_dp_ playing that game for 3 years already
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>herding cats
14:25<Wolf01>^
14:25<_dp_>called "server administration"
14:25<andythenorth>cat herding
14:26<_dp_>sorting out the mess players taught by AI do
14:26<frosch123>andythenorth: anyway, it is not new. when noai was added and the original ai was removed, multiple people complained that the gamemode "takeover ai companies and fix their mess" was removed
14:26<andythenorth>ha
14:26<andythenorth>yes I think I played that
14:26<@Alberth>baldys boss made an art of it :p
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>that reminds me of the time when i played the TT demo and "learned" building sidings from the AI (but not "learning" about signals)
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>or one of the screenshots in the TT manual which showed a multi track station, but also didn't include signals
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>which confused my brother a lot
14:28<andythenorth>I think I remember that screenshot :P
14:28<nielsm>I wonder if I have my original manual still
14:29<nielsm>I remember it putting "windows" in quotes every time when talking about window management etc
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>i lost my orginal box at some point
14:32<TrueBrain>CI queue is long today :(
14:34<andythenorth>so Horse, narrow gauge trains
14:34<andythenorth>what?
14:34<frosch123>TrueBrain: only have the length of last weekend
14:35<TrueBrain>now I have to remember where the strings of the downloads are stored .. like "Windows XP / Vista / 7"
14:35<TrueBrain>really cannot remember ...
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14:35<frosch123>grep?
14:35<TrueBrain>on what ...
14:35<TrueBrain>I believe it was some separate file telling the mapping
14:37<TrueBrain>ah .. found the filename .. now where is it located ...
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14:38<+michi_cc>nielsm: I uploaded a music sample to GH to show what I mean.
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14:38<nielsm>just saw
14:39<nielsm>odd, I don't get any reverb effects with the MS synth
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14:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: separate narrowhorse set?
14:47<andythenorth>nah, although it's a valid suggestion
14:47<andythenorth>better in a roster
14:48<andythenorth>the appeal of a separate set is just making it once ;P
14:48<andythenorth>in UK / Ireland horse, I think it's one engine every 40 years
14:49<andythenorth>and maybe pax railcar
14:49<andythenorth>but a case could be made for small (4/8) and large (6/8) engines
14:53<andythenorth>and also for 'fast' (pax, mail) and 'slow' (freight)
14:53<andythenorth>just not sure it's worth all that :P
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>there isn't really a lot of "fast" narrow gauge around
14:55<andythenorth>only in QLD with Pikka
14:56<andythenorth>it would be 5-10mph different at best
14:56<andythenorth>so let's not
14:56<Pikka>"fast"
14:56<Pikka>that's the problem with a queensland set
14:56<Pikka>1900 to 2000, everything's 50mph
14:58*andythenorth deletes QLD roster :P
15:02<supermop_work>andythenorth: jr
15:04<andythenorth>probly, one day
15:04<andythenorth>and FIRS too
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you could just make wagonspeedlimits different by 5-10mph, and leave the engine speed the higher of both
15:05<andythenorth>yes
15:05<andythenorth>that is very plausible
15:06<andythenorth>in this roster, NG is something like "I want a bigger tram"
15:06<andythenorth>rather than "I want a smaller train"
15:06<andythenorth>point-point A->B routes, two or three trains, no big network
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>most new tram systems of the past few years have been standard gauge
15:07<andythenorth>I think we can overlook that in the game design :)
15:08<andythenorth>or it supports the argument somehow, dunno
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15:43<nielsm>that's kinda odd
15:43<nielsm>if you set an output port on the dmusic driver it forces the ms synth into a compatibility mode or something
15:44<nielsm>and it becomes all dry sounding
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16:02<andythenorth>do I cap out NG performance at year 19xx? Or keep upgrading generations until 2020?
16:04<V453000>2100 are slugs obviously
16:04<V453000>compatible with NG
16:04<andythenorth>100mph?
16:04<andythenorth>standard slug speed?
16:05<V453000>180
16:05<andythenorth>such fast
16:07<frosch123>andythenorth: make them drive faster when there is at least one curve along the train
16:07<andythenorth>to encourage bendy tracks?
16:07<frosch123>yes
16:07<frosch123>the only point of narrow gauge is bendy
16:07<frosch123>so penalise straight track
16:08<andythenorth>can I overflow curve speed penalty?
16:08<frosch123>people can build zig-zag, but that will make the track longer
16:08*andythenorth looks
16:09<V453000>wait you can do that?
16:09<V453000>trains faster at curves?
16:10<andythenorth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains#cite_note-5
16:10<andythenorth>can't set the value :P
16:10<nielsm>michi_cc, from reading some more docs, as far as I can tell if you want to use the DirectMusic synth low-level you have to manage effects yourself as well, possibly even per channel too, which will probably get really hairy
16:11<frosch123>hmm, looks like max speed is cached too much
16:11<V453000>well tilt is tilt, but trains actually going faster when in curves than on straight track?
16:11<frosch123>you cannot change it while running
16:11<V453000>:D that's probably for the better frosch123 :P
16:11<andythenorth>could do it on railtype change :P
16:11<andythenorth>can I do a railtype with some angles missing :P
16:12<V453000>:d
16:12<frosch123>make cargo aging?
16:12<V453000>spoilers: game doesn't actually have curves :P
16:12<frosch123>people who travel my narrow gauge get bored on straight track?
16:13<andythenorth>applying the tilt bonus might be valid :P
16:13<andythenorth>just sticking to things the spec actually offers :P
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16:14*V453000 is going to do some nasty shit regardless.
16:14<frosch123>well, running cost is always an option
16:14<andythenorth>mostly, I depend on "well it looks different"
16:15<V453000>high running cost when on straight tracks? :D
16:15<frosch123>exactly
16:15<V453000>sounds mental, I love it
16:16<V453000>yeah, that probably not. The one which stops at signals and increases price, likely yes
16:16<V453000>in combination with almost 0 cargo decay rate
16:16<frosch123>snakes have difficulty on straights
16:16<V453000>so you can get better profits but your trains must not stop
16:16<frosch123>they need to snake to move forward
16:16<V453000>:D
16:16<V453000>ok your logic wins, putting it on the list of wtf ideas
16:18<V453000>btw https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/part/wiki/Concept
16:20<V453000>need to finish 1 full engine with wagons for it and I'll code a prototype
16:21<frosch123>i don't get the refittable part
16:22<V453000>it's also universal in terms of cargoes but every cargo has 7 subrefits? :D
16:22<V453000>6
16:22<V453000>actually 5
16:22<V453000>what's the max amount of subrefits? :D
16:22<frosch123>what do they do?
16:23<frosch123>you cannot change subrefit via orders
16:23<V453000>you can
16:23<V453000>I had colour-changing trains from NUTS and those do it via subrefit
16:24<frosch123>we removed that in 1.4
16:24<V453000>what?
16:24<frosch123>it did not work
16:25<frosch123>gone since december 2013
16:26<V453000>oh what the hell :(
16:26<V453000>that was one of the most important parts :d
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16:27<V453000>back to the drawing boards :D
16:27<frosch123>also, i have no idea how you want to implement the booster parts :)
16:27<V453000>I think we talked about it at some point and figured it should be possible with the store variable things
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16:29<V453000>well damn the subrefit thing really looks broken :d
16:30<andythenorth>for boosters V453000
16:30<V453000>ok. :D I think I can substitute that one
16:30<andythenorth>I recommend you code generate a *really* horrible stack of switches
16:30<V453000>but I was kind of guessing the store temp thing would be able to do this
16:30<V453000>yes that's kind of the plan andythenorth
16:30<andythenorth>all combinations handled, in switch :P
16:30<andythenorth>it's definitely wrong
16:30<andythenorth>but probably achieveable
16:30<andythenorth>unless you have more combinations that atoms in universe
16:31<V453000>I think the biggest problem was that I want to check if for example power part is at position 5 and then add it to some value somewhere
16:31<andythenorth>store temp, no?
16:32<V453000>yeah that's what I thought
16:32<andythenorth>train has maximum length?
16:32<V453000>know that I don't really understand propely what the store temp does :P
16:32<frosch123>it would work if the booster parts have to follow the engine immediately, and there is a limited amount of them
16:32<frosch123>say, not more than 10
16:32<frosch123>but you cannot make the engine scan the whole train and count booster parts
16:33<frosch123>or is there only one booster part per type? do they stack?
16:33<andythenorth>can't keep offsetting to a vehicle and checking ID?
16:33<frosch123>no loops :)
16:33<andythenorth>generated switch
16:33<andythenorth>count length of consist
16:33<V453000>oh
16:34<frosch123>also kind of excessive for longer trains
16:34<andythenorth>my proposal isn't _good_ or _nice_
16:34<andythenorth>"wagon power" nonsense? o_O
16:34<frosch123>but yeah, you can try to generate 1k switches to check 256 vehicles for 4 things each :p
16:34<andythenorth>frosch123: yeah, I think we should watch V do that
16:34<andythenorth>it's just a tree
16:35<andythenorth>FIRS has some equal horrors in it for location checks, and for terrain aware tiles
16:35<andythenorth>maybe not 'equal', by an order of magnitude :P
16:36<V453000>so I can't have 1 engine with 10 wagons where they are kind of random part types, where first and last 3 are power so fist one adds 12800, second one 8533, third one 6400, and the ones at the end 2560, 2327 and 2133 to the total power of those + some base power of the engine?
16:36<andythenorth>not for arbitrary consist lengths
16:36<V453000>or would it "just be fucking slow to compute"? :D
16:36<V453000>hm.
16:37<frosch123>would need trying :p
16:37<andythenorth>"probably fine" up to some limit
16:37<andythenorth>like most things :P
16:37<V453000>well I guess the powered wagons thing could be used for power and the wagon would just check for position in consist, right?
16:37<V453000>T.E. coefficient & engine weight increase not though
16:37<V453000>neither max speed
16:38<V453000>capacity part only influences itself
16:38<andythenorth>well
16:38<frosch123>the cached things are less of an issue
16:38*andythenorth thinks of ideas
16:38<frosch123>well, just try it, and learn :p
16:38<V453000>what are cached things? :)
16:38<V453000>ok :D
16:38<V453000>I guess I should start coding before doing proper graphics then
16:38<andythenorth>if you enforced, e.g. TL5 or something
16:38<andythenorth>your life would be order of magnitude simpler
16:39<V453000>that sounds pretty tough to do andythenorth
16:39<V453000>how?
16:39<V453000>buy 5 unit articulated trains? how do you customize them?
16:39<andythenorth>isn't there some "can't leave depot" thing?
16:39<V453000>oh holy shit :D
16:39*andythenorth looks
16:39<V453000>one of the aims was to remove stupid errors like NUTS' wagon connecting errors
16:39<andythenorth>CB31
16:39<V453000>now trains wouldn't be able to leave depot :D
16:39<V453000>next level
16:40<andythenorth>enforcing TL isn't too bad
16:40<V453000>btw how would a set TL actually make it easier?
16:40<andythenorth>because you only have to walk the consist once
16:40<V453000>I still need to check for the positions?
16:40<andythenorth>yes, but you don't have to measure train length, and build a stack of switches *for every possible length*
16:40<andythenorth>it's factorial
16:40<V453000>o_O
16:40<andythenorth>for arbitrary lengths
16:41<V453000>oh.
16:41<frosch123>it's only linear :p
16:41<V453000>well bonus above 20 units was meant to be the same
16:41<andythenorth>is it?
16:41<andythenorth>@calc. 5!
16:41<V453000>could be above 10 units
16:41<V453000>would that help?
16:41<andythenorth>@calc 5!
16:41<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
16:41<V453000>@calc 5*4*3*2
16:41<@DorpsGek>V453000: 120
16:41<frosch123>V453000: essetially you need separate switches for vehicles at each position
16:42<V453000>hm
16:42<frosch123>if you need 5 switches to decide the feffect of the 1st wagon, you need 5 for the 2nd, 5 for the 3rd, 5*max length in total
16:42<V453000>right
16:42<V453000>@calc 5*128
16:42<@DorpsGek>V453000: 640
16:42<V453000>not bad
16:42<V453000>:D
16:42<andythenorth>it's achieveable
16:42<andythenorth>and you can code generate them
16:42<V453000>is slow?
16:43<andythenorth>who knows?
16:43<andythenorth>nobody tried such a thing
16:43<V453000>well code generation isn't a problem really, I already expect to have to do that
16:43<V453000>right
16:43<V453000>well I guess there's only one way to find out
16:43<andythenorth>but imho, fixing the train length simplifies your life
16:43<andythenorth>at least for v1
16:43<V453000>I suppose next step should be make placeholder graphics asap, try coding
16:43<andythenorth>also, all games have fixed TL always anyway
16:43<V453000>I really don't like that one bit andy
16:44<V453000>well yeah but why 5 :D
16:44<V453000>length could be a parameter but that's horrible
16:44<andythenorth>parameter doesn't win you much, then you have to handle the parameter in the code generator
16:44<andythenorth>so you might as well just have arbitrary
16:44<andythenorth>all or nothing eh
16:44<andythenorth>TL5 because I was told to once
16:44<andythenorth>or something
16:45<V453000>well doing more code isn't a problem
16:45<V453000>doing something that wrecks the game might be :P
16:45<V453000>let's add frosch123's snake train gfx to make sure :P
16:45<andythenorth>nothing advances utnil it's pushed
16:46<V453000>ok I'll make basic placeholder images and try coding asap
16:46<V453000>expect hopeless questions :D
16:47<andythenorth>go big or go home
16:47<andythenorth>etc
16:47<andythenorth>also I expect to see use of depot flip
16:47<andythenorth>so each wagon has A or B option
16:47<andythenorth>and you can combo them
16:47<Pikka>o/
16:47<andythenorth>lo Pikka
16:47<V453000>yeah that's pretty nuts andy
16:47<V453000>not too sure i want/need that
16:48<andythenorth>also V453000 combo breakers, anti-easter egg
16:48<andythenorth>some combos nerf your train
16:48<andythenorth>Bad PART
16:48<V453000>hi Pikka :)
16:48<andythenorth>the whole idea is awesome
16:48<andythenorth>you should make accompanying industry set :P
16:48<V453000>I was thinking there would be a secret combination which turns the train into a slug
16:48<andythenorth>special combo of flip
16:48<andythenorth>like flip 1, 3, 4, 6
16:49<V453000>but I'll most likely just have a separate slug vehicle because it's home railtype can be some railtype with high curve speed
16:49*Pikka contemplates a single loco set
16:49<andythenorth>or flip 2, 5, 7 for angry slug
16:49<V453000>yes
16:49<Pikka>where the single loco is a Class 08
16:49<frosch123>V453000: oh, i forgot about vehicle var 60
16:49<V453000>that was the idea & is possibility
16:49<frosch123>different than i remembered
16:49<frosch123>so, counting vehicles is fine, just position is hard
16:49<V453000>what's 60?
16:50<andythenorth>yeah counting is fine
16:50<frosch123>count number of wagons of specific type in train
16:50<andythenorth>and 61 is 'fine'
16:50<andythenorth>oh no, not possible in cb36
16:50<andythenorth>oops
16:50<V453000>right
16:50<andythenorth>bad news V453000
16:50<andythenorth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Vehicles#Count_Veh.ID_occurence_.2860.29
16:51<frosch123>oh, right, so position-specific is actually completely impossible
16:51<andythenorth>yes
16:51<andythenorth>because circ deps
16:51<V453000>well that sucks
16:51<andythenorth>and there's no perm. storage
16:51<frosch123>V453000: so, counting wagons works, but no positions :)
16:52<V453000>hm
16:52<V453000>I guess it's something
16:52<V453000>but that makes long trains ultra overpowered
16:52<frosch123>just divide the effect by total number of wagons
16:52<V453000>unless the efficiency of the parts drops with total consist length? :D
16:52<andythenorth>or cap it
16:52<V453000>:Ddd
16:52<V453000>:DDD
16:52<andythenorth>max boost
16:52<V453000>omg.
16:52<andythenorth>Max Boost
16:53<V453000>hm
16:53<V453000>that's not stupid idea either
16:53<frosch123>so you use percentages, not total number
16:53<V453000>soooooooooooooooo open scripting specs for vehicle grfs? :P
16:54<V453000>the max bonus sounds decent andy
16:54<V453000>but that just means that you get X number of parts which increase performance, and rest just capacity parts
16:55<andythenorth>depends how you do it
16:55<frosch123>make running cost exponential with length :p
16:55<andythenorth>so far we seem to be talking about modifying lead engine based on wagons
16:55<andythenorth>but why not just give wagons power?
16:55<andythenorth>directly?
16:55<V453000>power would be fine there
16:55-!-nielsm [~nielsm@80-162-205-79-cable.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:55<andythenorth>and then mod that depending on position in consist
16:55<V453000>but T.E and max speed?
16:55<V453000>yes wagon power sounds ok
16:55<andythenorth>put TE on wagon
16:56<andythenorth>max speed, some kind of check of other IDs in consist
16:56<andythenorth>so you find who is fastest wagon
16:56<V453000>O_O oh, wagon speed limits
16:56<V453000>T.E. on wagon how?
16:56<andythenorth>don't use powered wagon shit
16:56<andythenorth>implement wagon as engine
16:57<andythenorth>then just give it excess TE
16:57<V453000>holy shit
16:57<V453000>that's actually
16:57<andythenorth>you can ban 'wagons' being lead
16:57<andythenorth>it won't affect TE of whole consist, but if you go excession on it, you'll get a result
16:58<V453000>right
16:58<andythenorth>TE isn't that relevant anyway
16:58<V453000>it's very relevant
16:58<andythenorth>I ran some tests this week with horse fast/strong engines
16:58<andythenorth>HP makes much more difference than TE on typical slopes
16:58<V453000>the train accelerates at low speed much better with high T.E.
16:58<V453000>slopes are overall irrelevant
16:59<andythenorth>yeah, for a few tiles
16:59<V453000>that's important :)
16:59<andythenorth>over a longer run, HP wins out every time
16:59<andythenorth>just comparing head-to-head
16:59<V453000>over a longer run yes, but generally I want engines which accelerate rather quickly anyway
16:59<andythenorth>right
16:59<andythenorth>well just boost it to excess on some wagons
16:59<V453000>but yeah I could also skip fucking with T.E. and just keep T.E. at some number without T.E. part
16:59<V453000>I'll think about that
17:00<V453000>implementing everything as engines is hacky esp as you can't auto-join them in depot
17:00<andythenorth>a high-TE, low HP engine might still kick the consist off at low speed
17:00<V453000>and drag them manually
17:00<V453000>but eh
17:00<andythenorth>this is a bit close to some IRL situations :P
17:00<andythenorth>where engines switch modes as speed increases
17:00<andythenorth>controlling electric motors in trains is really sophisticated to handle different speeds + power demands
17:00<V453000>OMG IZ REALISTIC
17:01<V453000>abandon ship
17:01<andythenorth>super
17:01<V453000>interesting
17:01<andythenorth>engines have transitions from series/parallel etc
17:01<andythenorth>and if diesel-electric, the diesel engine responds to that in different ways
17:01<andythenorth>it's not like driving a car :P
17:01<V453000>ok on a scale of 0 to 666 how evil is implementing wagons as engines? :D
17:01<andythenorth>not
17:02<andythenorth>I implement pax cars as engines
17:02<V453000>omg finally wagons introduction is in news :P
17:02<andythenorth>in some cases
17:02<andythenorth>it's like 5
17:02<V453000>really?
17:02<V453000>isn't that annoying to build?
17:02<andythenorth>don't care
17:02<V453000>click buy, add to train, click buy, add to train
17:02<andythenorth>yeah
17:02<andythenorth>but build one, clone
17:02<V453000>I guess you only do it at the start and the rest you clone
17:02<V453000>yeah
17:03<andythenorth>power scales with train length
17:03<andythenorth>it's kind of fine
17:03<andythenorth>2000hp for every 16/8 length
17:03<V453000>hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
17:03<andythenorth>all your ideas are super-realism V :P
17:03<andythenorth>try harder
17:03<V453000>yeah I didn't like that mechanic much because that just gives you 1 way how to use the train without possibility to sacrifice capacity for acceleration
17:04<V453000>I think japanese train set EMUs have same capacity in wagons as in engines
17:04<andythenorth>refit :P
17:04<V453000>-> you only spam engines
17:04<V453000>haha
17:05<V453000>I think the T.E. thing is going to work on the engines fine, too
17:05<V453000>actually much better than on the wagons
17:05<V453000>because if the wagons ADD to the main engine, then you reach 255 rather fast quite likely
17:05<V453000>and need to add weight after that
17:05<V453000>which is weird
17:06<V453000>but if each thing is actually engine, then the first one just gets a metric shitton, and each one after just less, and then it just all adds up
17:06<andythenorth>I *really* want to change depot-flip behaviour
17:06<andythenorth>so each ctrl-click increments a counter
17:06<andythenorth>up to 16, then reset to 0
17:06<V453000>:D
17:06<V453000>jeez
17:06<andythenorth>I am deadly serious
17:06<andythenorth>we can shim the existing behaviour for old newgrfs
17:06<andythenorth>then train vehicles can have 16 'variants'
17:06<V453000>for liveries that's glorious
17:07<V453000>almost nobody uses flipping anyway
17:07<andythenorth>or anything else you invent
17:07<V453000>I won't either because my engines are articulated
17:07<V453000>gg
17:07<andythenorth>instead of some hard-coded livery UI which won't please the foamers anyway
17:07<andythenorth>articulated engines do it too
17:07<frosch123>do people still use the ctrl+click signal rotation?
17:07<andythenorth>that's part of my patch idea
17:07<peter1138>Hi!
17:07<V453000>frosch123: the semaphore/light signals?
17:07<peter1138>Livery UI what?
17:07<V453000>Hi!
17:07<andythenorth>frosch123: there's _another_ way to do signals besides ctrl-click?
17:08<andythenorth>V453000: for PBS one way
17:08<V453000>ah
17:08<andythenorth>I never touch the signal UI, it's dreadful
17:08<V453000>changing type after built
17:08<frosch123>V453000: no, i mean build pre signal by a) select presignal and build or b) build signal, ctrl+build to switch from normal to presignal
17:08<V453000>I do that all the time
17:08<andythenorth>'choose colour light PBS', try to never look at signal UI ever again
17:08<V453000>switching in gui is clicks elsewhere->slower
17:09<andythenorth>always b
17:09<andythenorth>choose b
17:09<andythenorth>the signal UI is just two rows of confusing blobs
17:09<V453000>so frosch123 what do you think about implementing all parts as engines, instead of wagons? :D
17:09<frosch123>didn't you already answer that? annoying to build
17:10<V453000>issue is player can just let parts out of the depot without the actual engine, too? :D without annoying check for vehicle can leave depot that is
17:10<V453000>I guess I did, just asking for more opinions :)
17:10<V453000>andythenorth is evil and twisted
17:10<andythenorth>V453000: try http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/
17:10<andythenorth>Helm Wind, from 1980 or so
17:10<andythenorth>it is annoying to build
17:10<V453000>well I can imagine stacking engines being annoying to build
17:10<peter1138>Should I do some coding.
17:11<peter1138>Or... clean the bike off.
17:11<V453000>peter1138: wagons with power and T.E. please :D
17:11<andythenorth>clean the bike
17:11<andythenorth>it will be harder next time
17:11<peter1138>V453000, they're called engines.
17:12<V453000>exactly, iz problem
17:12<andythenorth>V453000: you can just https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Visual_effect_and_wagon_power_.2810.29
17:12<V453000>they don't automatically add to consist on purchase :P
17:12<V453000>yeah andy I used that shit at some point in NUTS
17:13<andythenorth>never appealed to me
17:13<V453000>I know I read somewhere that it's not recommended to use or something
17:13<V453000>and there was some weird exploit that I did with it, I can't remember
17:13<andythenorth>probably totally fine
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17:13<andythenorth>we're just prejudiced against old bits of spec :P
17:14<V453000>probably :)
17:14<frosch123>andy is just on a track to relearn history :p
17:14<V453000>andythenorth: the wagon count is just bonkers
17:15<V453000>why do so many of them seem to be duplicates?
17:15<V453000>3 small dump cars, same stats, slightly different prices?
17:15<andythenorth>have to use 'vehicles expire'
17:15<andythenorth>otherwise madness
17:15<V453000>but what is it for?
17:16<andythenorth>generations
17:16<frosch123>since when do you show vehicles in blue and red?
17:16<V453000>oh what the
17:16<andythenorth>V453000: only way to evolve stats innit
17:16<V453000>well you have 4 hopper wagons without any stat increase?
17:17<andythenorth>"wagon speed limits"
17:17<V453000>OH JESUS FUCK
17:17<V453000>:DDDDDDDDDDDDD
17:17<V453000>ok you win
17:17*andythenorth waits for V453000 emoticons
17:17<V453000>iz defeat
17:17<andythenorth>I'm not even pretending to any other solution
17:17<andythenorth>idea, pursued to logical maximum :P
17:18<V453000>bbut
17:18<V453000>WHY :d
17:18<andythenorth>I might hate it by 2019
17:18<andythenorth>how else to avoid having only one type of engine? o_O
17:18<V453000>well at least the engines are in clear steps to match them
17:18<andythenorth>it's this, or just one engine
17:18<V453000>you mean forced 1 network with different engine types
17:18<andythenorth>if logic ruled, purest grf is this
17:19<andythenorth>- one engine, ultra everything
17:19<andythenorth>- one wagon, universal refit, no limit, 8/8
17:19<andythenorth>nothing else
17:19<V453000>well my philosophy with NUTS is that you have 1 network with uniform things, but the next time you play you build something else
17:19<V453000>that's choice :) having 1 engine for each cargo type isn't choice
17:19<andythenorth>also why has nobody made The Ultimate GRF
17:20<V453000>it's coming andythenorth :P
17:20<V453000>0 wagon grf
17:20<V453000>engine only
17:20<V453000>G_G
17:20<andythenorth>more ultimate
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17:21<andythenorth>now you broke frosch V453000
17:21<andythenorth>bad
17:21<V453000>no it's past 11 :P
17:26<andythenorth>also build-drag, build-drag is boring
17:27<V453000>?
17:27<andythenorth>wagons-are-engines
17:28*andythenorth thinking of alternatives
17:29<andythenorth>V453000: refit subtype crap?
17:29<V453000>how does that solve anything?
17:29<andythenorth>can't see how that works tbh
17:29<V453000>:D
17:29<andythenorth>just crap as usual
17:30<andythenorth>yeah, messing with lead engine stats is fine
17:30<andythenorth>ordered combos...not
17:30<andythenorth>can't think of alternatives
17:32<andythenorth>V453000: you could do it like slots in other games, e.g. tanks, racing games etc
17:32<andythenorth>so you get 3 slots after engine
17:32<andythenorth>and choose from 9 power-up wagons
17:32<andythenorth>rest are just cargo after that
17:33<V453000>all out. :P
17:33<andythenorth>yair
17:33<andythenorth>the slots thing is just a way to avoid 27 engines in buy menu :P
17:33<andythenorth>not wtf enough
17:34<andythenorth>once concept is set, pursue to max, profit
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17:34<andythenorth>also bed
17:35<andythenorth>pursue sleep to max
17:35<V453000>well I'd have 11 engines and 6 parts
17:36<andythenorth>72 million possible combos
17:36<andythenorth>hard maths I did there
17:37<V453000>omg ultimate train set
17:37<V453000>also
17:37<V453000>wagons as engines means you can autoreplace between wagons and engines
17:37<V453000>._>
17:37<V453000>luckily I want to make only 1 "main engine" possible to attach per train
17:37<V453000>so that fixes that
17:38<V453000>because real engines are 16/8, wagons 8/8
17:38<V453000>would fuck stuff
17:38<V453000>still need to add checks to prevent players from building trains without the main engine :D
17:38<V453000>which ... is that even possible?
17:38<andythenorth>just nerf stats :P
17:38<V453000>or just can't send from depots?
17:38<andythenorth>0 everything
17:38<V453000>hm
17:38<andythenorth>or can't send from depot
17:38<V453000>hm
17:39<V453000>can't send from depot might be the better alternative here
17:39<V453000>although I can imagine it being quite hillarious to see wagon-only trains
17:39<andythenorth>you could sack the lead engine
17:39<andythenorth>just combo wagons :P
17:40<V453000>that removes progression unless done by just a switch based on date
17:40<andythenorth>legendary: https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Constructicon_(G1)
17:40<andythenorth>"They are also particularly notable for their status as the very first combining subgroup of Transformers."
17:40<V453000>which doesn't require autoreplace -> bad
17:40<andythenorth>just give wagons generations
17:40<andythenorth>66 of them :P
17:40<V453000>hm
17:40<V453000>isn't stupid either
17:40<V453000>not 66
17:40<V453000>but yeah
17:41<V453000>could work actually
17:41<andythenorth>long buy menu is fine, it turns out
17:41<V453000>omfg.
17:41<andythenorth>just don't fill it with shit sprites
17:41<andythenorth>or pointless 'my favourite train'
17:41<V453000>well 11 generations of 5 parts is still ok-ish
17:41<V453000>having 11 + 5 I find better though
17:42<andythenorth>MOAR WAGONS
17:42<V453000>yeah, maybe just nerfing stats without leading engine is fine
17:42<andythenorth>well
17:42<V453000>andythenorth: visually it's like 14k wagon sprites :P
17:42<V453000>++
17:42<andythenorth>'visually' :P
17:42<V453000>cargoes, variations, generations
17:42<andythenorth>all those grfs with lots of engines, and no wagons :P
17:43<andythenorth>abolish engine
17:43<V453000>iz wagons, just hidden in refit
17:43<andythenorth>train is mostly wagons
17:43<V453000>unless iz all engines
17:43<andythenorth>ok I am +1 here
17:43<V453000>G_G checkmate
17:43<andythenorth>do big and small ones :P
17:44<V453000>Option B is to still use wagons but with powered, max wagon speed, and ignore T.E.
17:44<V453000>but I guess 1 is ignored, and max wagon speed can be toggled by a setting
17:45<V453000>and powered doing weird shit
17:45<V453000>-> no win
17:45<Wolf01>'night
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17:46<andythenorth>just go full wtf
17:46<V453000>the engines are wtf but kind of controllable wtf
17:47<V453000>autoreplace can be bullied by not allowing the consist
17:48<V453000>oh, isn't idiot proof
17:48<V453000>you can autoreplace the main engine to a part
17:48<V453000>and not be able to go back because the leading part is the same as 1+ other parts in consist
17:49<V453000>I guess can't leave depot does autoreplace the train and then make it stuck in depot?
17:50<V453000>well, I better go die on bed
17:50<V453000>this doesn't lead to places :D
17:50<V453000>good night, thanks for talk :)
17:52<_dp_>hm, interesting, when you set growth rate with GS it doesn't necessarily mean town will grow.
17:52<_dp_>still requires climate-specific cargo for example
17:53<peter1138>Okay done.
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23:23<qwebirc86530>Hi, anyone there?
23:23<qwebirc86530>I was considering that using an in-game cryptocurrency would be cool, and saving the game onto a blockchain.
23:25<LANJesus>uh, make a patch?
23:25<qwebirc86530>It would maybe be a fork, as it would be quite different.
23:26<qwebirc86530>OpenTTD would be a great testing-ground for it.
23:29<qwebirc86530>Plus stock in the companies within an OpenTTD game could be tradable on that blockchain.
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