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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-05-05

---Logopened Sat May 05 00:00:58 2018
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02:27<peter1138>Hmm, I think it's not even needed.
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02:36<andythenorth>o/
02:37<V453000>oy
02:47<V453000>I think I can do a weird mix of stuff to get my thing through
02:47<V453000>possibly even without engine-wagon bulltrash
02:47<V453000>oh actually nvm
02:48<V453000>engine-wagon thing still :)
02:50<V453000>andythenorth: how could I make something like a train depot replica in a website? :D Could python do that?
02:50<V453000>you would drag&drop images behind each other with snapping to get a train and see it's numbers
02:51<V453000>like a train configurator
03:02<andythenorth>V453000: javascript
03:02<V453000>I've used that in Ae
03:02<V453000>can't say I'm too enthusiastic to try that again :D
03:02<andythenorth>me neither
03:02<V453000>but eh what could possibly go wrong
03:03<V453000>was kind of naively hoping the almighty snake could do it
03:05<andythenorth>is it docs, or a configurator that generates a grf?
03:06<V453000>docs
03:07<andythenorth>web browsers don't run snake
03:07<andythenorth>and Flash is dead
03:07<andythenorth>so your choices are JS, or Unity
03:07<andythenorth>and Unity is evil and full of evil
03:07<V453000>:D ok
03:07<V453000>I'll probably try JS then at some point
03:07<V453000>would be a great doc
03:08<andythenorth>https://jqueryui.com/draggable/
03:08<andythenorth>combine with https://jqueryui.com/droppable/
03:08<andythenorth>it's a total PITA to write JS though
03:08<andythenorth>I hate it
03:09<V453000>that's the general consesus that I got so far and from writing basic Ae expressions I agree from the basic syntax thing
03:09<peter1138>JS is fine.
03:10<andythenorth>'fine'
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03:31<andythenorth>V453000: I'm bored
03:33<V453000>? :D
03:33<V453000>how
03:34<andythenorth>I wrecked Horse
03:34<andythenorth>and I wrecked a ship grf
03:34<andythenorth>bored of drawing trains and ships
03:34<andythenorth>wreck something else?
03:35<V453000>xd
03:41*andythenorth eats greens
03:41<andythenorth>draw tank car \ / views
03:41<andythenorth>worst job ever
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04:05<Wolf01>o/
04:09<Wolf01>While having your trains station automatically named "Satan's Anal Railways" is mildly funny, it's a bit confusing and not very family friendly. <- fine, we managed to autogenerate city names like this too :D
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04:40<Wolf01>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1206529#p1206529 andythenorth?
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04:41<V453000>anus
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05:09<TrueBrain>didn't know we were on a first-name-basis V453000
05:14<V453000>first name basis? :D
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05:19<TrueBrain>you said anus .. not me :P
05:21<V453000>I was just quoting Wolf :P
05:22<V453000>ish
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06:19<andythenorth>this is interesting https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1206524#p1206524
06:21<Wolf01>Yes
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06:24<V453000>._.
06:25<andythenorth>quite like that behaviour
06:39<V453000>holy shit I completely forgot how recolour sprites work :D
06:40<V453000>staring at rainbow slug code for last 20 mins
06:44<andythenorth>how do they work?
06:44*andythenorth just uses code from frosch
06:44<andythenorth>probably just a remap?
06:44<V453000>well
06:44<V453000>I also have code from frosch :D
06:46<V453000>just wow
06:46<V453000>it worked on first try :D
06:46<V453000>colour_mapping: palette_2cc(COLOUR_RED,COLOUR_RED);
06:46<V453000>not a custom one but I don't need that yet
06:47<V453000>aha
06:48<V453000>this weird shit actually moves in the parameter things :D param[01]+16
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07:07<V453000>frosch123: do you have a minute? :) I've finally written down 2 engines as the booster parts, and I want to try to do maximum speed = some_speed * count_veh_id / num_vehs_in_consist ... how would I write a switch like this?
07:07<V453000>do I need to go through every single case of count_veh_id?
07:08<V453000>or is there some of the store_temp magic to do it more elegantly?
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>no, you just can write the formula down, where you usually would put your variable, and one single empty "return;" statement
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>that will be interpreted as "return the value of this formula"
07:09<V453000>so literally speed: return 100 * count_veh_id / num_vehs_in_consist; in the graphics block?
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>like in the very first switch in this https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pqkw4ev0p#line-15
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>it might also work in the graphics block
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07:11<V453000>I guess in the graphics block it doesn't know what to look for
07:11<V453000>like the FEAT_TRAINS and SELF
07:11<V453000>I did speed: return 100 * count_veh_id / num_vehs_in_consist;
07:11<V453000>:D
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>it probably assumes "SELF" at that point
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>and FEAT_TRAINS is implied because you're in a graphics block
07:13<V453000>nmlc ERROR: "PART.nml", line 485: 'count_veh_id' is a function and should be called using the function call syntax.
07:13<V453000>it doesn't enjoy that
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>count_veh_id(number)
07:13<V453000>number?
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>number is the ID that you want to count
07:13<V453000>OH
07:13<V453000>:D
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>like count_veh_id(vehicle_blah)
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>the vehicle name should work
07:14<V453000>used number ID, seems to have compiled
07:15<V453000>it's doing something!
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you have "item(vehicle_blah)", then using "vehicle_blah" should work in the context where a vehicle ID is asked for
07:16<V453000>:DDD I didn't realize that If I divide by number of wagons then the speed never increases if I only use speed parts :D
07:16<V453000>well
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>so you don't have to do "item(vehicle_blah, 25)" to know you have to put "25" in there
07:17<V453000>yez
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you divide by an integer number, you actually can only decrease :p
07:18<V453000>well yeah but speed is added per each unit added
07:18<V453000>but the efficiency of units is divided by their count, so obviously... :
07:18<V453000>:D
07:18<V453000>well I already divided their count by another number :)
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>you probably meant something like "the first wagon adds 1, the second 1/2, the third 1/3, ..."
07:19<V453000>yeah I guess
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>that adds up to aroud log(n)
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>*around
07:19<V453000>can I use such function in nml?
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>look up "harmonic numbers"
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure NFO covers log :ü
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>:p
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>i'd find it surprising if it did :p
07:20<V453000>iz what I thought
07:21<V453000>well ok then I just need find some other way how to write that
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>anyone think i should finally switch my clock forward 1h?
07:21<V453000>maybe I don't even need it though
07:21<V453000>:d
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could also do "the first wagon adds 1, the second 1/2, the third 1/4, ..."
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>that way you have a cap on 2 units for an infinitely long train
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>but you don't need any fancy log functions
07:23<V453000>but how would you calculate the thing you just said or 1, 1/2, 1/3
07:24<V453000>I need the total value but I can't iterate through the result of the count_vehid?
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sum(1%2Fk,+k%3D1..n) <-- that is not very helpful :p
07:25<V453000>:D that part I kind of understand
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sum(1%2F2%5Ek,+k%3D1..n) <-- that is easy
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07:32<V453000>is it? :d
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>well, you'd have to bring 1-2^(-n) into a form which is suitible for integer division
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>so 1-1/2^n -> (2^n-1)/2^n
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>and 2^n is just 1<<n
07:35<__ln__>V453000: yes, it's basic rocket science
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's basic advanced maths :p
07:36<V453000>wait I can put ^n into NML syntax? :d
07:38<V453000>I did speed: return (100*(2^count_veh_id(150)-1))/2^(num_vehs_in_consist-2);
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>no, only 2^n
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>or does it have real ^?
07:39<V453000>it compiled but it does weird shit
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably bitwise xor
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>not power
07:39<V453000>well the result for count_veh_id worked for 1 and 2 :D then it went mad
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that's not ging to be helfpful :p
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>just use 1<<
07:41<V453000>what does that mean?
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>that is a bitshift
07:41<V453000>that's something I heard in factorio combinators :D doesn't mean I have idea what it does
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>1<<0 is 1, 1<<1 is binary "10", so 2
07:41<V453000>oh is it like a /2 /4 /8 thing?
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes
07:42<V453000>:00000
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>mind you that formula will break for very long trains
07:43<V453000>define very long :D
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>depends on your "100*"
07:44<V453000>:0
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>but basically: 2^n uses n bits, in a 32-bit calculation you can thus have a maximum of 32 wagons before it breaks. minus 1 for every bit that your "100" uses
07:45<V453000>:D
07:45<V453000>oh.
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>means this formula works for your proof of concept, but you should probably get a formula that is a bit less demanding
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>or go through floating point maths
07:46<V453000>well the concept already seems to work so I guess I should focus on getting something that counts properly now
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember if NML can convert float/integer
07:48<V453000>I'll try first if the simple formula that I already have works fine
07:48<V453000>because it might
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VarAction2Advanced <-- doesn't look like float is available here
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>it would probably be a desync hazard if allowed
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>the other option would be if you made a "lookup table", i.e. a switch with every possible n->f(n) mapping
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>at that point it would be useful again if NML implemented "procedure calls"
07:56<frosch123>just go for an easier formula
07:56<frosch123>exponential stuff is too extreme
07:56<andythenorth>eh what?
07:56<andythenorth>so what's left on NRT?
07:56<andythenorth>or is it dead?
07:56<andythenorth>I'm confused
07:57<Wolf01>Rebase, merge the town roads branch (and change the roadtype algorythm), ship it
07:57<frosch123>V453000: try something like (10+count_veh_id(veh_booster)) / (3+count_veh_id(veh_booster)
07:58<frosch123>that gives a big effect to few booster vehicles, and little effect to many
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the problem is to calculate sum(...) without iterating
08:00<Wolf01>andythenorth: also remove the check for electrification in converting town roads, so one could convert them back to normal road, they said there is no such thing as griefing inf OTTD, so let them do it
08:01<andythenorth>ok
08:03<V453000>the current thing might actually work well enough once I start adding other parts
08:03<V453000>:) return 100 * count_veh_id(150) / ((num_vehs_in_consist-2) /2);
08:03<V453000>thanks frosch123 ,I'll save it
08:04<V453000>ok, onwards to other parts, those should be easy now :)
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08:09<frosch123>V453000: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/boost_curve.png
08:10<frosch123>by changing the "/2" you control the effect when adding very many vehicles, by adjusting the 10 and 3 you change the curve for few vehicles
08:11<V453000>I understand, thank you :)
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08:16<frosch123>V453000: also for your web-configurator for trains, i would suggest to use a spreadsheed application
08:16<frosch123>allow people ending A/B/C/D into the cells of a row to define the wagons
08:16<frosch123>then make the spreadsheet count the letters
08:16<frosch123>s/ending/entering/
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08:20<andythenorth>hmm
08:21<andythenorth>so Iron Horse and Sam can't be shipped, too wrecked
08:21<andythenorth>maybe I should wreck FIRS now
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08:28<V453000>frosch123: already have a google spreadsheet for that :P
08:30<peter1138>hi
08:32<V453000>hihi
09:09*Mazur plays factorio as well, now.
09:18*peter1138 plays C++
09:18<V453000>that's not too different :P
09:19*andythenorth plays pixels
09:19*V453000 plays NML
09:19<peter1138>Oh, Transport Fever is on sale.
09:20<V453000>XD
09:20<peter1138>Is that any good?
09:20<V453000>for train sim people I guess it's nice
09:20<V453000>didn't try
09:29<nielsm>the main attraction of train fever, to me, is the ability to build realistic track layouts
09:29<nielsm>and being constrained into it
09:30<nielsm>transport fever too
09:30<Wolf01>"realistic"
09:30<V453000>XD
09:30<nielsm>relatively, compared to transport tycoon
09:30<Wolf01>You build like TT without sharp angles
09:31<V453000>factorio has realistic trains in that case :P
09:31<nielsm>and layouts that can actually support high speeds take up significantly more space
09:31<Wolf01>Lacks bridges and tunnels
09:31<nielsm>requires more planning imo
09:31<V453000>gg
09:32<Wolf01>Now you have cliffs and you can add bridges and tunnels
09:32<V453000>maybe one day
09:34<V453000>WHAT WAS IT :D that defines wagons vs. engines?
09:34<V453000>I thought it would be TE coefficient
09:35<V453000>nvm I can't read
09:35<peter1138>no, it's power.
09:36<V453000>disabled both. :>
09:37<andythenorth>V453000: do \ / views matter at all? :P
09:37<V453000>I'd say those are more important than | -
09:37<V453000>I think generall you build diagonals less, and stations etc
09:38<V453000>but side views are for depots so they catch up there
09:38<peter1138>Yea
09:41<andythenorth>basically a \ / view is just blobs
09:41<peter1138>That's why 2x.
09:44<andythenorth>I should have drawn the \ / views first, not – :P
09:44<andythenorth>nothing from the – view fits or makes sense in \ /
09:44<V453000>:D
09:45<V453000>well I must admit I always started with /
09:45<andythenorth>wise
09:45<andythenorth>these Horse sprites are all bollocks now
09:45<andythenorth>I used to do \ / views first
09:46<peter1138>Now you know why.
09:46<andythenorth>it's kind of a challenge :P
09:46<andythenorth>not sure I can make 6 different mail cars
09:47<andythenorth>there aren't enough pixels in \ / view
09:47<peter1138>Antialiasing.
09:47<V453000>:D
09:47<andythenorth>sub-pixel :P
09:47<peter1138>2x ;)
09:48<andythenorth>or call the whole thing off :P
09:48<peter1138>:(
09:48<andythenorth>pikka is doing new Horse anyway
09:48<andythenorth>in 8x
09:49<peter1138>Cubicles.
09:54<V453000>:D
09:56<V453000>it hates something :( https://paste.openttdcoop.org/poiplcalx https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9033/wotwot.png
09:56<V453000>but I can attach the vehicle to the train no problem
09:56<V453000>and when I build the next ones, they work fine
09:57<V453000>OH
09:58<V453000>because without the leading engine the consist is -1
09:58<V453000>:D
09:58<V453000>XD
09:58<V453000>FUCK
10:00<V453000>still weird though why it fails only on the first attempt
10:00<V453000>ayy fixed
10:00<V453000>:> chat spam
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11:20<andythenorth>delete all trains
11:33<nielsm>http://0x0.st/s1lI.png eh well that's a quick game too
11:34<nielsm>1960-2006, map (mostly) filled
11:34<nielsm>ffwd almost all the time
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11:36<V453000>frosch123: if you have a minute, this doesn't seem to work properly I think :/ but I don't really understand why. I understand the switch_2, I guess it just checks for current speed? but the other one is mysterious to me https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/part/repository/entry/NML/PART.nml#L430
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11:41<frosch123>V453000: yes, B4 is speed
11:41<frosch123>the 8A part is the current order, and the B2 part is the vehicle-stopped-manually state
11:42<frosch123>"loading/unloading" is a type of current order
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11:45<frosch123>V453000: i guess the switches only work for the front engine, so possibly using PARENT instead of SELF is better
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11:53<V453000>that's weird, it's already used on the front engine so SELF should not matter ... tested with PARENT and it seems to do the same thing
11:53<V453000>when the train stops at a signal, something is happening, but the running cost is weirdly blinking between smoe two values
11:53<V453000>some*
11:54<V453000>oh yea
11:55<V453000>it kind of works, but the train alternates between the 500 and 250 in those switches in the link when stopped at a signal, most of the time it's at the 250 which is strange
11:56<V453000>haha
11:56<V453000>using 0..1 in the most expensive mode helps
11:56<V453000>weird
11:57<frosch123>hmm, i thought we fixed that :p
11:58<frosch123>it used to be the case that waiting vehicles would accelerate and only when they progresses far enough to move a step, they would notice the red signal and stop, and restart accelerating again
11:58<frosch123>maybe it's still like that :p
12:00<V453000>I need to do 0..7, seems to work now
12:00<V453000>hmm still not perfect
12:01<andythenorth>Horse 32% done
12:02<V453000>ok 0..15 :D
12:02<V453000>holy shit
12:03<V453000>I'll say that to the police next time I see them that 16kmh means stopped :P
12:09<andythenorth>has anyone ever tried rendering sprites? o_O
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12:11<frosch123>what does that mean?
12:12<andythenorth>means I'm bored of trying to draw tube shapes :P
12:13<frosch123>did you try duping your front views into zephyris' tool?
12:13<andythenorth>FISH was based on rendered ships, but the forced scale was all wrong :)
12:13<andythenorth>hmm that's an idea
12:13<andythenorth>presumably it just does a transform on them :P
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12:19<andythenorth>it's a nice tool, doesn't get me good results though :)
12:21<nielsm>for rendering sprites in TT scale from 3D/vector art, and having it look reasonable, I think you'd need a kind of hinting similar to what truetype fonts do
12:22<nielsm>to basically prioritize features
12:24<peter1138>render for 2x or 4x :p
12:25<V453000>for the player, is there any visible difference between increasing engine running cost or wagon running cost?
12:27<nielsm>afaik all the financials for the train are accounted on the front engine, so there wouldn't be
12:29<V453000>right
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13:15<Wolf01>Bye
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14:10*andythenorth wonders
14:10<andythenorth>peter1138: such livery UI? o_O
14:10<andythenorth>or is it all sunshine today?
14:11<peter1138>Doing a BBQ.
14:11<peter1138>But yeah, guess I'd forgotten that :p
14:11<peter1138>But that resize issue
14:18<andythenorth>oh dear :)
14:18<andythenorth>45 million Brits probably having a BBQ today
14:19<peter1138>Contributing to global warming.
15:02<peter1138>Well.
15:17<peter1138>Widgets, eh. Are they magic?
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15:48<frosch123>any opinions on allowing non-english project descriptions and/or reviews on bananas2?
15:49<andythenorth>what does Steam do? o_O`
15:49<frosch123>would korean/russian grf authors want to post korean/russian descriptions and read reviews?
15:50<frosch123>sometimes you read chinese stuff on steam, when there is no english
15:51<frosch123>reviews seem to have a language
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15:52<Pikka>ding dong
15:52<frosch123>but my system is configured to english
15:52<andythenorth>si pikka bob
15:52<+glx>reviews can be in any language
15:52<frosch123>so, not sure whether it would show me other languages
15:53<+glx>descriptions also can be translated
15:53<frosch123>ok, let's allow reviews with languages
15:54<frosch123>but i think translated descriptions would be a mess :p
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17:51<ahles>He guys, I recently found back my old hobby again. And i was looking at the multiplayer function, can anybody help me with it as i'm not seeing any connectinos
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20:17<vorot93>hello
20:26<vorot93>I've started skimming through the code and what strikes me is how modern C++ features and stdlib are underused. For instance, an otherwise simple `GRFText` class which is full of custom allocation code for dealing with underlying `char[]`. Is there a particular reason for this except for the code having been written in pre-modern C++ era?
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20:36<Eddi|zuHause>mostly it's because the code is old
20:57<vorot93>(also the fact that a class is both declared and defined in .cpp)
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---Logclosed Sun May 06 00:00:59 2018