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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-05-06

---Logopened Sun May 06 00:00:59 2018
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00:52<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 18*600
00:52<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 10800
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02:28<andythenorth>o/
02:29<Pikka>o/
02:30<peter1138>hi
02:30<Pikka>bonjour
02:35*Pikka -> shoppe, bbl
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03:59<Wolf01>Moin
04:02<Pikka>V453000, https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/5877
04:02<Pikka>"when the train stops at a signal, something is happening, but the running cost is weirdly blinking between smoe two values"
04:04<Pikka>but who uses non-path signals anyway? ;)
04:05<nielsm>standard block signals sort-of make sense to use along a line without junctions? and just use path signals when you have splits
04:05<nielsm>at least I've seen claims that using path signals for that uses more cpu
04:06<nielsm>(which matters if you're on a server on a cheap shared hosting)
04:07<LordAro>well they're definitely "more expensive"
04:07<LordAro>but i've never seen any actual evidence that they're a significant factor
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05:16<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that claim has ever been conclusively proven
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06:00<andythenorth_>o/
06:01<Wolf01>o/
06:02-!-chomwitt is "chomwitt" on #debian #debian-games
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06:02<andythenorth_>sunny
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06:19<Pikka>not that sunny, then?
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07:08<Pikka>it's not sunny here but
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07:12<nielsm>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6685 <- this was merged and can be closed
07:16<+michi_cc>Hmm, slight bummer with low-level DirectMusic... Feeding raw MIDI was actually easier than expected (except some tiny hickups with stopping), but the whole point would be to allow the DMusic synth to be used.
07:17<+michi_cc>And that synth is a DLS synth which needs a DLS download. And the DLS loading code is not part of the low-level stuff, which means a custom DLS file parser. Joy.
07:18<nielsm>:D
07:18<nielsm>I think you still wouldn't get the reverb effects either
07:19<nielsm>I think you need to manually insert and control some effect DMOs in the sound path for those
07:19<+michi_cc>Otherwise, the raw DirectMusic API is probably the superior MIDI API as it works with timestamped midi messages.
07:20<nielsm>hm well winmm also has the midiStreamOut API which takes timestamped messages
07:20<nielsm>but the docs for it confused me
07:20<nielsm>so was easier to use the direct
07:21<+michi_cc>nielsm: Nope, that seems to be the synth itself. You can use the low-level API and only the high-level DLS reader and get the same sound. It's just not part of 64-bit windows or the current SDK headers.
07:21<nielsm>but I think it's better to just make an open source softsynth work properly on windows
07:22<nielsm>since MS is still marking all of dmusic as deprecated and threatening with removing it
07:24<+michi_cc>Yeah, but it can't be that deprecated. DirectMusic was initially not implemented at all for 64-bit, but MS then later added parts of with Windows 7. You wouldn't do that just for fun.
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07:38<nielsm>for gloating, here's how the music sounds on a real roland soundcanvas: http://0x0.st/s1dv.MP3
07:38<nielsm>(SC-55st)
07:42<nielsm>the drums are cleaner and the slapped bass better defined than the MS synth DLS recordings, but mostly the effects on the MS synth are actually excessive IMO
07:42<nielsm>so no need to be that much up in arms over it ;)
07:45<nielsm>also the theme: http://0x0.st/s1dY.MP3
07:45<andythenorth>I love it when people obsess over details :)
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07:47<nielsm>nobody who isn't obsessive over details would still bother with TT :)
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08:38<Eddi|zuHause>midi sounded really awesome on my SoundBlaster AWE32 back then
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08:39<Eddi|zuHause>unfortunately i have no computer where it fits in anymore
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>i don't suppose there's PCI-E to ISA adapters?
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>:p
08:41<peter1138>Progress, eh?
08:42<peter1138>Back in the day you'd have multiple audio channels for mixing, wavetable synth, OPL FM synth, digital effects...
08:42<peter1138>Now they just expect the CPU to do it all.
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>back in the day you'd have to manually fiddle with IRQ settings
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09:37<andythenorth>Wolf01: rebase NRT? o_O
09:38<andythenorth>or one giant patch?
09:38<Wolf01>New repo + one giant patch could help to clean up things
09:39<andythenorth>have you got a new Openttd/Wolf?
09:40<Wolf01>Yes, but I rebased every branch I had
09:41<Wolf01>I was working on a new repo for NRT to make it like in 2-3 distinct commits, so it could be merged to master in different steps
09:42<andythenorth>so I'll leave this in place https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes
09:42<andythenorth>would be stupid to delete that :)
09:42<Wolf01>You could rename it NRT-depr
09:42<andythenorth>ok
09:42<andythenorth>well I'll at least add notes
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09:49<Wolf01>Quak
09:50<Wolf01>So, I think it's time to have a breakfast... I ate too much yesterday and only now I can feel again I'm hungry
09:52<frosch123>moi
09:53<andythenorth>@calc (119/2)/24
09:53<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 2.47916666667
09:53<andythenorth>hmm
09:54<andythenorth>I can draw 2 trains per hour, Horse will take time :P
10:04<peter1138>Is that including \ | and / views? :p
10:04<peter1138>Plus doubling up for assymmetric wagons.
10:08<andythenorth>it's including all of that
10:09<andythenorth>it also includes all of the time restarting openttd :)
10:09<andythenorth>and rebuilding my lost saves
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10:42<Eddi|zuHause>why restart? isn't it enough to reload_newgrfs?
10:46<andythenorth>it crashes a lot
10:46<andythenorth>either cleanly, or not
10:47<andythenorth>ottd really hates the grf changing on disk under it
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, if you let the game unpaused while you change it.
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>but if you reload_newgrf, and didn't change any vehicle lengths or whatnot, it should work
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>(that implies a few assumptions like stable vehicle IDs between compiles)
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>but that should cover all your drawing concerns
10:55<LordAro>feel like it should be able to cope a bit better than hard crashing anyway
10:57<frosch123>nml unlinks the file, before writing the new grf
10:57<frosch123>so unless andy has a custom cp/install in place, i have no idea why ottd should crash
10:57<dusan>testing 123
10:58<andythenorth>I have a make install target
10:59<frosch123>then i would blame it on that one :)
10:59<andythenorth>which might be exactly the cause
10:59<andythenorth>it crashes hard, even sometimes when the change is just a pixel
10:59<dusan>what are you guys upto
11:00<andythenorth>frosch123: is there a better way? o_O http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/entry/Makefile#L114
11:00<frosch123>andythenorth: try adding "--remove-destination" to the cp
11:00<frosch123>but no idea how standard that is
11:00<frosch123>it may be a gnu extension
11:01*andythenorth reading about it
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11:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i just have a symlink to my development file
11:03<andythenorth>seems --remove-destination isn't in macOS cp
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>then add "rm $destination"
11:03<andythenorth>there's a -f
11:03<andythenorth>might not be what I want
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds wrong
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably "ignore readonly" and stuff
11:05<andythenorth>so what's the underlying reason to rm first?
11:06<andythenorth>I don't like cargo culting stuff :)
11:06<frosch123>the difference is between replacing the file with a new one
11:06<frosch123>or replacnig the content of the file
11:06<andythenorth>is someone about to say 'inode'? o_O
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>openttd will not try to read the changed file, but will retain a (hidden) link to the old file, while you write the new file
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>the old file will be deleted when openttd drops the file handle (on "reload_newgrf") or close
11:07<andythenorth>ok
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>i wasn't going to, the concept of inode is even another level deeper
11:07<andythenorth>we have similar issues with web apps on production servers
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11:08<andythenorth>they don't always release a file cleanly, with varying results
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could have all sorts of fractal problems there :p
11:10<andythenorth>occasionally a file looks released, but some process is still writing to it, so the disk fills
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>you know about "lsof"?
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11:11<Eddi|zuHause>might help debugging that problem
11:11<andythenorth>I only have to witness it being solved :)
11:11<andythenorth>other people know about lsof
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11:15<andythenorth>I've made that change in makefiles ,thanks
11:22<andythenorth>should help a lot
11:55<andythenorth>@calc 16/3
11:55<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 5.33333333333
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12:29<Guest1915>hi
12:29<Guest1915>who ruined this game?
12:29<Guest1915>by ruined, I mean, implemented terraforming limits
12:29<Guest1915>how do I turn this bs off?
12:30<LordAro>it's been there for at least 5 years
12:30<LordAro>and pretty sure there's a setting anyway
12:30<Guest1915>strange because I haven't noticed in 2015
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12:30<Guest1915>I typed in "terraforming" in settings search and it's not popping up
12:31<nielsm>what kind of limits?
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12:31<Guest1915><Guest1915> by ruined, I mean, implemented terraforming limits
12:31<Guest1915>I can't level a mountain
12:31<nielsm>I've never bumped into anything limiting how much landscaping I can do
12:32<LordAro>yeah, looks like it's not in the gui
12:33<LordAro>terraform_frame_burst
12:33<LordAro>alternatively, just wait a bit
12:33<LordAro>or do it in smaller chunks
12:34<Guest1915>https://i.imgur.com/eNSD10j.png
12:34<Guest1915>I can't wait 543980 years before I make 1 train line, cmon :/
12:35<nielsm>then change the limit in the config file
12:35<nielsm>I think it's a setting to limit griefing potential in multiplayer games, mainly?
12:36<Guest1915>this is ridiculous
12:36<Guest1915>terraform_per_64k_frames, is that it?
12:36<LordAro>probably
12:36<LordAro>or just wait 64k frames :p
12:37<Guest1915>:|
12:37<Guest1915>I will set this to -1
12:37<Guest1915>and after I'm done
12:37<nielsm>64k frames is how much...
12:37<Guest1915>I will write a patch set that removes this bs
12:37<LordAro>@calc 64000/74
12:37<@DorpsGek>LordAro: 864.864864865
12:37<LordAro>that many seconds
12:37<LordAro>Guest1915: yoi're being silly
12:37<LordAro>and overly agressive
12:37<Guest1915>;-;
12:38<Guest1915>sorry if I came up rough, but this is majorly griefing my openttd experience
12:38<Guest1915>rest asured the patch will be just for myself
12:38<LordAro>why on earth do you need a patch then?
12:38<LordAro>it's got a config setting
12:38<LordAro>surely that is simpler
12:40<LordAro>not sure i've ever actually seen anyone (who wasn't griefing) hit that limit before anyway
12:41<Guest1915>me trying to level a mountain just so I can establish a maglev that doesn't have to ride up and down has hit that limit
12:43<LordAro>doesn't look like a huge mountain, i wonder if that setting hadn't been set to a lower value than default
12:43<nielsm>(not like the maglev train would actually be slowed by the presence of the mountain)
12:43<LordAro>^ unless original acceleration model
12:44<Guest1915>I am on the original accel model
12:45<LordAro>i see
12:46<nielsm>anyway, as far as I can tell, the terraform_frame_burst setting in the cfg file controls how many tiles-permitted-to-modify you get per tick
12:47<nielsm>but just be aware that internally it's handled as an uint32 and for some reason values are shiftes 16 bits left
12:48<LordAro>Rubidium was original implementer, iirc
12:49<nielsm>introduced between version 1.0 and 1.1
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12:50<@Rubidium>nielsm: easy, values are 'per 64k ticks', so shift back by 16 bits and you got the value per tick
12:50<@Rubidium>after all 64k (in this instance) == 2**16
12:51<@Rubidium>also, with both settings at their maximum value you have to be really really good at your "job" to even trigger it
12:52<LordAro>nielsm: ah, 7 years then :p
13:07<Borg>Orginal accel model?!!! wtf?!!
13:07<Borg>oh he left..
13:07<Borg>probably some noob..
13:07<Borg>ignore him
13:07<Borg>;)
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13:48<peter1138>How dare you ruin the game!
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14:15<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, how dare you ruin the game retroactively 7 years ago, and nobody, even him, noticed
14:22<andythenorth>if you like Pearl Jam https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfQnUI3AGO8
14:22<andythenorth>otherwise ignore :P
14:28<peter1138>Shows you how much I play the game, cos I've never seen it.
14:28<peter1138>Mind you I don't flatten mountains.
14:29<andythenorth>me neither
14:29<andythenorth>and I play maybe 10 games per year
14:31<LordAro>wow, 10
14:35<andythenorth>loads eh
15:10*andythenorth wonders how long narrow gauge wagons should be
15:10<andythenorth>in /8 units
15:10<andythenorth>'small' standard gauge are 4/8
15:13<V453000>666
15:14<andythenorth>@666/8 * 16
15:14<andythenorth>probably not good in corners though
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15:46<andythenorth>3/8 is kind of nice
15:46<andythenorth>but doesn't make nice integer lengths
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15:50<V453000>well then I guess if NG has to be smaller, 3/8 it iz
15:50<V453000>that's crazy small though, make sure you start with \ / :P
15:50<andythenorth>2/8 is even worse
15:51<andythenorth>4/8 winner
15:51<frosch123>make wagons with 3 articualted parts
15:51<frosch123>than fake the 9/8 into 8/8
15:51<andythenorth>might be valid
15:51<V453000>:D
15:51<andythenorth>because capacity per wagon is so low
15:54<andythenorth>http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_10_2016/post-6750-0-11662200-1475498066.jpg
15:58<andythenorth>10t per wagon eh
15:59<V453000>well that's 30t 8/8
16:00<andythenorth>yair
16:01<V453000>"standard" :P
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16:12<Pikka>very
16:14<V453000>Pikka: moar trainz? :)
16:14<Pikka>many
16:14<V453000>such
16:14<Pikka>if I can stop fiddling with the AI for ten minutes
16:16<andythenorth>is it done yet? o_O
16:16<V453000>:D that's also good
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16:40<andythenorth>meh
16:44<peter1138>hem
16:44<Pikka>yoyo
16:49<andythenorth>3/8 then? :(
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16:57<Pikka>that's pretty tiny
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17:14<Wolf01>'night
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17:14<andythenorth>it's also untidy :P
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17:30<Pikka>4/8 makes better integer trains? :P
17:31<andythenorth>yes
17:31<andythenorth>I just need to draw better
17:31<andythenorth>so it looks nice
17:31*andythenorth working on it
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18:28<Pikka>hmm, AI can't buy tiles?
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---Logclosed Mon May 07 00:00:01 2018