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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-05-11

---Logopened Fri May 11 00:00:06 2018
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00:47<LANJesus>openttd predates git
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01:46<peter1138>hmm
01:47<peter1138>ccfreak2k, it was on github but only as clone from SVN. Now it is the canonical source and svn is read-only.
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08:30<karan_>guide me abt meglavs
08:30<karan_> guide me abt meglavs
08:31<karan_>which grf setting will be used for meglavs
08:32<karan_>which grf setting will be used for meglavs@arveen
08:32<__ln__>what is a meglav?
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08:33<karan_>its a train set used in the game in transport tycoon
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>i've never seen one
08:33<TrueBrain>maglevs :)
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>hey, you spoled it :p
08:34<__ln__>megnatic lavitation
08:34<Arveen>i have been summoned by blinking icons
08:34<TrueBrain>yes, leaving you two alone with people is rarely a productive conversation Eddi|zuHause :)
08:34<karan_>yes in
08:36<karan_>which grf setting will be used for meglavs
08:36<TrueBrain>they are called maglevs, and they are in any game
08:36<Arveen>lul
08:37<karan_>i was talking abt transport tycoon in pertcular
08:37<TrueBrain>well, I guess 'any game' refered to 'any game with OpenTTD'
08:38<TrueBrain>I am sure there is no extension to chess which adds maglevs indeed :)
08:38<TrueBrain>although that would be a game I would be playing
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08:46<supermop_work>"maglev leaves board at 500kmh, flattens rook enroute"
08:47<peter1138>Hurr, 750ms per tick in this game o_O
08:47<TrueBrain>good luck getting to 30fps :P
08:48<LordAro>TrueBrain: implying that your addition to the conversation improves it? :p
08:48<peter1138>It's debug-level 3 mind you. It's about 120ms per tick on a normal build.
08:48<peter1138>Still far short but still "playable"
08:48<TrueBrain>LordAro: where did I imply that?! :o
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08:48<TrueBrain>and I did try .. clearly it was not going to happen
08:48<peter1138>If I stop all of the 5500 roade vehicles, the time drops to 200ms per tick (with debug 3)
08:48<peter1138>-e
08:49<peter1138>Do we have a road vehicle performance issue? :p
08:49<TrueBrain>no, you have 5500 vehicles :)
08:49<LordAro>TrueBrain: :p
08:49<peter1138>Yeah, probably just all that pathfinding with road networks.
08:49<TrueBrain>pretty sure most of the game is O(n) with N is the amount of vehicles :)
08:49<peter1138>Towns tend to generate lots of very similar path costs.
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09:04<Eddi|zuHause>there were some versions of the game where a lot of trains waiting at red signals would cause slowdowns
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>maybe roadvehicles have a similar congestion slowdown
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>like the calculation whether it's possible to overtake and stuff
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09:16-!-nielsm is "Niels Martin Hansen" on #openttd #tycoon
09:16<TrueBrain>nice work peter1138 :) Seems very sensible :)
09:17<TrueBrain>just a few magic numbers that are rather odd in value :D
09:17<peter1138>Pretty much just translated.
09:17<TrueBrain>yeah .. they already made no sense :P
09:17<TrueBrain>0xff .. I mean . .wuth?! :P
09:17<TrueBrain>I like the TimerElapsed :)
09:17<TrueBrain>nice solution there :)
09:18<peter1138>However I'm tempted to put a new function in next to the main game loop, calculate the delta there, and not shove everything from the UpdateWindows() function.
09:19<TrueBrain>like you said, this yells for more refactoring :)
09:19<TrueBrain>but one step at the time :P
09:19<peter1138>It grew :)
09:19<peter1138>Like scrolling the map with keyboard... affected by ffwd.
09:19<TrueBrain>lol
09:19<peter1138>Well, even edge scroll was.
09:20<peter1138>But the function InputLoop() is very odd now.
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>i almost always pause before scrolling
09:20<TrueBrain>with peter1138's patch you no longer have to! :P
09:20<peter1138>Don't think it affects Eddi|zuHause's usage :)
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>and by "almost always" i mean "5 years ago" :p
09:21<TrueBrain>but the reason why he does it might be solved now :P
09:21<peter1138>Heh
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't played a proper game since i started CETS
09:24<TrueBrain>hmm .. to setup sentry myself, or to request an open source project free thingy ..
09:24<TrueBrain>effort vs reward ..
09:28<peter1138>Heh
09:28<peter1138>For reporting bugs?
09:29<TrueBrain>from the web-backends, yes
09:29<TrueBrain>so it also creates a ticket in the right projects on github again
09:30<TrueBrain>in the hope they get fixed :P
09:30<peter1138>Oo
09:31<TrueBrain>(stuff like BaNaNaS2)
09:31<TrueBrain>also trying to figure out how to make it part of a CD
09:31<TrueBrain>so that when you tag shit, it also gets deployed ASAP
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11:19<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, cities skylines goes rollercoaster tycoon?
11:19<peter1138>?
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>https://store.steampowered.com/app/715191/Cities_Skylines__Parklife/
11:20<peter1138>Heh
11:21<peter1138>I bet they did all that without having a spec.
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>in a modern language
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12:08<andythenorth>o/
12:10<andythenorth>peter1138: I need 36 railtypes
12:18<@Rubidium>andythenorth: so Bill's 640k is enough still holds ;)
12:25<andythenorth>how many bytes is a railtype then?
12:27<@Rubidium>two many?
12:28<andythenorth>I reckon I need 320k railtypes
12:28<andythenorth>and then maybe room for 1 more
12:29<peter1138>Oh no.
12:29<peter1138>I wonder how that patch affects performance :p
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can have any number of railtypes, as long as you're willing to extend The Holy Maparray. the bigger problem is that you need to redesign the GUI
12:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think you're missing the point
12:31<andythenorth>users don't need to be able to use the railtypes
12:31<andythenorth>they just need to be able to load them
12:31<andythenorth>if we restrict content creators, they won't create enough content fast enough
12:31<andythenorth>MORE CONTENT!
12:31<andythenorth>WITH MORE IN IT!
12:32<andythenorth>OTHERWISE OPENTTD WILL DIE
12:33<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, easy, just add a scrollbar to the menu :D
12:34<peter1138>Clearly I need rail types to cover speed limit increments of 1km/h.
12:34<peter1138>We might as well just add a 32-bit integer to the array.
12:34<peter1138>I mean, it's only 32 bits!
12:35<andythenorth>making choices is bad
12:35<andythenorth>make content instead
12:35<andythenorth>oops now I sound like what Eddi says to me
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>quantity is everything
12:36<andythenorth>why is it 16 roadtypes not 32?
12:36<andythenorth>the only reason I can find in the spec is that it fits neatly in m8
12:36<andythenorth>without strewing bits everywhere
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>that's pretty much it
12:36<andythenorth>and I probably said '16 types is enough'
12:37<andythenorth>leaving bits free for future ideas
12:37<peter1138>And it matches railtypes.
12:37<peter1138>Which is 4 bits because it was always 4 bits.
12:37<peter1138>Alternatively it's because we are evil developers who like to impose arbitrary limits for no reason!
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>if you make it 5 bits you might just as well make it 8 bits
12:38<andythenorth>peter1138: but I do like imposing arbitrary limits
12:38<andythenorth>32 solves nothing
12:38<andythenorth>with 32, incontinent authors just design up to the limit
12:39<andythenorth>if they can find 16 trivially, they'll find 32
12:39<andythenorth>so one still can't combine multiple newgrfs
12:39<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, not exactly. There might be 2 bits available without extending the array, but not 4.
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12:39<andythenorth>65k in a pool might solve it :P
12:40<andythenorth>actually pool is irrelevant, no idea why I typed that, but 65k is the best limit
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: maybe we should replace the maparray with NoSQL?
12:40<+glx>xml is better, easy to edit ;)
12:41<peter1138>json is all the rage these days.
12:41<peter1138>json within nosql, of course.
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>(must shy away from joke about blockchain)
12:41<peter1138>Didn't someone suggest that the other day?
12:41<peter1138>A savegame is nothing but a list of commands...
12:41<andythenorth>I think blockchain is valid
12:41<andythenorth>I see no problem with it
12:41<andythenorth>savegame is just hashes no?
12:41<peter1138>Each client just has to run through the game from the start :D
12:42<+glx>in FF mode
12:42<andythenorth>that sounds nice
12:42<andythenorth>does each run generate one coin?
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: yeah, because running 100 years in fastforward is quicker than downloading 5MB of savegame?
12:42<andythenorth>seriously we should do an ICO offering based on playing OpenTTD
12:42<andythenorth>completing a scenario generates a coin
12:43<peter1138>Hmm, might be able to get away with making railtypes 8 bits :p
12:43<andythenorth>"You won Silicon Valley GS, you have 1 ottdcoin"
12:43<peter1138>But 255 is quite ludicrous.
12:44<andythenorth>the limits need to be big enough to stop people whining
12:44<peter1138>Also, beyond 32 you have issues with bitmasks no longer being simple.
12:44<andythenorth>otherwise they piss around making lists of '32 vs 4'
12:44<andythenorth>64 *
12:44<andythenorth>"But nobody needs canal road with streetlamps!!!!"
12:44*andythenorth wonders if forum posts can mine coins
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>there have been bitcoinminers built into websites, so they run in the browser while the tab is open
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12:46<andythenorth>I want a mechanic where you actually have to make lists of stuff
12:46<andythenorth>listcoin
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>lists as in "you won't believe people made these 13 suggestions"?
12:47<TrueBrain>andythenorth: your crypted message about "Canada" was too vague to respond to; sorry :P
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12:48<Wolf01>Moin
12:48<andythenorth>TrueBrain I was looking for Canadian cloud hosting vendors
12:48<andythenorth>Canadian market looks a bit lame
12:48<TrueBrain>nothing ever good came from doing that :P
12:48<andythenorth>we think we have a solution now
12:48<TrueBrain>OVH is in Canada
12:48<andythenorth>yeah
12:49<andythenorth>we have a solution where we're using OVH and someone else
12:49<TrueBrain>good!
12:49<andythenorth>I think we're backing up to OVH because none of the low $ vendors have any backup solution
12:49<andythenorth>it's all single DC stuff
12:50<andythenorth>usually we just use someone like rackspace and their block storage for backup, which they replicate to multiple physical locations
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12:51<andythenorth>cloud hosting is a total PITA outside the handful of major markets
12:51<TrueBrain>PRIVATE CLOUD!
12:51<+glx>like current binaries distribution ?
12:52<TrueBrain>that is a private CDN :)
12:53<peter1138>Hmm, oops, forgot that now it's a PR every commit means a CI build.
12:53<peter1138>Well, every push.
12:53<TrueBrain>keeping it busy is good for it :)
12:54<+glx>costs the same used or not I guess
12:54<peter1138>True.
12:54*andythenorth BIAB
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12:56<peter1138>Hmm, so some AIs expect infrastructure costs to be off.
12:57<LordAro>most of them?
12:57<peter1138>Dunno, I don't play with AI generaLly.
12:57<TrueBrain>that has been an issue from the start .. they have a hard time making profit with it on
12:57<peter1138>How did that uppercase get there...
12:57<TrueBrain>(as most humans do :P)
12:57<peter1138>I need to slow my i7 down. FFWD is too quick :p
12:58<peter1138>It's weird cos I know every frame is drawn, but you don't see them all.
12:58<TrueBrain>I have a cryptominer for you?
12:58<@Rubidium>peter1138: remove the cooler
12:58<peter1138>It'd need to use all 6 cores I suppose.
12:58<peter1138>And... it crashed.
12:59<peter1138>No symbols so I'll just assume it's ICU.
12:59<LordAro>reasonable assumption
13:00<+glx>29 items in the trace ?
13:00<peter1138>Didn't count.
13:02<peter1138>Hmm, lots of exceptions reported when an AI is running.
13:03<peter1138>It's okay, running a debug build is enough to make it much slower.
13:04<+glx>enable bounding boxes and it should slow things too
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13:15<Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> I need to slow my i7 down. FFWD is too quick :p <-- remember when computers had "turbo" buttons?
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13:40<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: not a bad idea, he can just underclock his CPUs easily
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14:33<andythenorth>is cat?
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14:35<Eddi|zuHause>does cat have a turbo button?
14:38<andythenorth>press tab
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that does what you think it does
14:44<andythenorth>I keep trying it in my web browser
14:44<andythenorth>I should file a chrome bug
14:44<andythenorth>"ffwd isn't working"
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15:39<Wolf01>I do it while at work, but 10 hours are 10 hours
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16:26<Eddi|zuHause>you spend 10 hours pressing tab at work?
16:31<Wolf01>Usually, yes
16:31<Wolf01>Tab is one of the main keys at my work
16:31<Wolf01>Autocompletion and other stuff works with that
16:31<Wolf01>:P
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17:32<peter1138>Evening.
17:34<peter1138>Wolf01 already has my patches, so FFWD doesn't make it any faster ;(
18:03<Wolf01>\o/ another satellite successfully deployed by spacex, with the brand new Falcon 9 Block 5
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>i thought they wanted reusable rockets, so what do they need a "brand new" one for?
18:08<Wolf01>This one is MORE reusable, up to 10 times
18:09<LordAro>and is the "final" version, that they're going to get human rated
18:10<Wolf01>Next step is the BFR, but looks too much scifi :P
18:13<Wolf01>Anyway... 'night
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---Logclosed Sat May 12 00:00:08 2018