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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-05-14

---Logopened Mon May 14 00:00:10 2018
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01:57<peter1138>Oh dear, there actually *is* a railtype for removed rails...
02:00<peter1138>And why does anyone need "Modern high-speed mainline, crushed stone ballast, concrete ties, electrified (200 km/h)" and "... (220 km/h)"?
02:09<Eddi|zuHause>there is also a "planning track"
02:13<V453000>peter1138: no PURR, 0/10
02:14<V453000>also I have NO idea what should I use from that list :D
02:14<V453000>I was also surprised to see RAWR in the background :)
02:15<V453000>also I guess if you try to build them it's a serious recognizing challenge to see which one is which
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02:18<peter1138>I think it ran out of types ;(
02:23<V453000>at least everyone would probably use PURR from this list because it's most visible :P
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02:52<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, also, I did actually do it. Extended the map array :p
02:52<peter1138>Although for some reason bridges don't build correctly. Hmm.
02:53<peter1138>Oh, found it :)
02:59<LordAro>i thought extending thrme map array was supposed to be difficult?
03:03<peter1138>No, extending the map array is piss easy.
03:03<peter1138>It's just not done without a very good reason.
03:04<peter1138>On the other hand, computers have moved along quite a bit in 10 years.
03:05<peter1138>Memory-wise at least.
03:05<__ln__>in 10 years, but not in the latest 10 years
03:08<peter1138>LordAro, might be better to add 2 uint8s rather than 1 uint16 though.
03:08<peter1138>Also, UINT64_MAX is actually valid, despite being the marker for invalid :S.
03:08<peter1138>uint64 bitmasks not fun.
03:09<peter1138>Probably wants a different way of handling that.
03:10<peter1138>LordAro, but I ran out of railtypes when I loaded them all!!!111
03:12<LordAro>why not just make it an array of 16 uint8s? or 2 uint64s?
03:13<peter1138>LordAro, I'm not changing the existing array!
03:13<peter1138>Just 2 * uint8 might make some things simpler.
03:13<peter1138>But 1 * uint16 might be useful for something else. I dunno.
03:13<peter1138>Hmm, maybe it should be 256 rail types.
03:14<peter1138>And then when there are far too many for the user to pick, just blame the GRF authors.
03:14<peter1138>(tbh, even 32 or 64 is too many, imho)
03:14<peter1138>(and that is humble, not honest)
03:34<SpComb>need scrollable dropdowns
03:35<Eddi|zuHause>dropdowns should not be longer than 7 entries without some kind of separators or other groupings
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03:49<V453000>that makes a bunch of sense Eddi|zuHause :)
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03:57<peter1138>SpComb, we have scrollable dropdowns.
03:57<peter1138>But it's still a horrible UI when there's that many.
03:58<peter1138>And when you have multiple types that are the same but by different authors so they're not actually the same.
03:59<peter1138>Hmm, if it's limited to 63 types then the invalid marker becomes distinct again.
03:59<peter1138>But OMG! Artificial limits!
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04:16<peter1138>It's funny how tt-forums now has the smallest font ever used on a website, as all other sites have increased font size...
04:17<peter1138>And it's not even computer screens that have increased in resolution (unless you go 4K)
04:29<@orudge>[20:56:55] <TrueBrain> orudge: I know we asked this 10 years too, but how many cookies do we have to give for patchpacks to get their own subforum? Is that possible? <-- I don't recall anybody asking for any recently, but it can potentially be done, yes. (People have tended to ask for new forums for random 3rd party games that have a 3-post topic in Off-Topic, which tend not to happen. A
04:29<@orudge>general 'Patch Packs' forum or specific forums for individual patch packs could happen though.)
04:31<peter1138>There's currently only JGR's Patch Pack.
04:31<peter1138>And maybe he doesn't want it separate.
04:32<peter1138>Dunno about Juanjo, doesn't seem to be an active thread.
04:32<peter1138>Oh, cirdan is active too.
04:33<peter1138>"New map features"
04:33<peter1138>"Joker's Patch Pack" is the guy who flounced off the other day.
04:33<@orudge>Well, if it's worthwhile separating them out then we can, but don't want to create a new forum for it to end up with just 5 topic in it, we've got enough forums like that already ;)
04:33<peter1138>Transport Empire turned out good, eh?
04:34<peter1138>(There appears to be a mobile/web game with that name now)
04:35<LordAro>peter1138: juanjo is thr one with the open PR, right?
04:35<peter1138>LordAro, he is active in getting things into master, yes. Which is really good.
04:35<LordAro>indeed :)
04:36<peter1138>p1sim is kinda... what.
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06:28<peter1138>So should I do this?
06:28<peter1138>Me so bad ;P
06:29<peter1138>I had a flexible bitmask class once. Hmm.
06:30<peter1138>Ooh, 2008.
06:30<peter1138>Ah forget that, the diff doesn't include new files, lol..
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06:52<peter1138>Also, std::bitset.
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07:29<peter1138>Is that enough?
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07:39<peter1138>^^ :p
07:40<snail_UES_>why keep making jokes like that :p
07:41<snail_UES_>seriously, 256 is an overkill, but many people would find it useful if we had 32
07:41<snail_UES_>could this feature be misused? yes...
07:41<snail_UES_>but that’s true of any feature
07:42<peter1138>I ran out of types when I added a few railtype newgrfs when I had it at 64.
07:42<peter1138>Obviously someone will want to do that ;(
07:43<snail_UES_>yes, it’s a way people would misuse of this
07:43<snail_UES_>but I don’t think it’s the number… I could make a senseless trackset even we had only 8 or 4
07:45<peter1138>Your IRC client is doing something wrong with ' symbols.
07:45<peter1138>I bet you use a mac :S
07:46<peter1138>Btw, these are not jokes, they are real working patches.
07:46<snail_UES_>I use Colloquy
07:46<__ln__>’wrong’ as in using the correct quotes?
07:46<__ln__>instead of ASCII quotes
07:46<peter1138>(Although the railtype bitmask is wrong for the 256 version)
07:46<snail_UES_>if they’re real, why can’t we optimize the code and have them in trunk?
07:47<peter1138>__ln__, hmm, strange. My ‘ and “ are correct, but ’ and ” are wrong.
07:48<peter1138>But sorry, yes, it's my side, not snail_UES_'s
07:48<snail_UES_>no idea my ‘ and “ were wrong
07:48<peter1138>They're not.
07:49<peter1138>Forget about it :-)
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07:59<peter1138>assert(IsNormalRoad(t)); // XXX incomplete
07:59<peter1138>I wonder...
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08:24<peter1138>Hmm, so NRT uses m4 for roadtype & tramtype.
08:24<peter1138>With the extended array it could use m4 for roadtype and m9 for tramtype (m8 for railtype on level crossings)
08:25<peter1138>That would get around the 15 limit.
08:27<peter1138>Standard-size map uses 128KB more. Not much.
08:31<LordAro>i feel like that's managable :p
08:32<LordAro>how much are you extending it by? 16 bits?
08:33<peter1138>I prepared an alternative version that adds 2 * uint8s.
08:34<peter1138>Becuase there is "enough space" it means some mapaccessors don't need bit stuffing at all.
08:35<peter1138>So GetRailType(t) becomes "return (RailType)_me[t].m8;"
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08:36<peter1138>Probably some other limits could be increased as well.
08:36<peter1138>Industry tile, house tile...
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09:55<peter1138>Hmm, JGRPP doesn't increase the map array.
09:55<peter1138>I guess it doesn't have NRT though.
09:56<peter1138>Ah yeah, it just borrows an extra bit in the map array to go to 32 railtypes. Same bit I did :p
09:57<peter1138>2 railtypes on 1 tile will be possible.
09:57<peter1138>For those awkard diagonal tiles.
10:10<LordAro>can you have 4 roadtypes on a tile?
10:12<V453000>omg 2 railtypes on 1 tile is so much bigger feature than 32 railtypes :D
10:19<peter1138>V453000, i'm only considering the parallel diagonal case.
10:19<peter1138>I believe someone had a patch for that anyway. May already be in master? :p
10:19<V453000>you mean no junctions
10:20<peter1138>That does make changing rail layout "interesting" though, if they're incompatible.
10:20<peter1138>Hmm, well, not really, just the same as any other incompatible combo.
10:28<peter1138>Hmm, wonder what else would benefit from map storage.
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10:51<peter1138>Check the logs ;p
10:53<andythenorth>peter1138: you woke up early :P
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10:54<peter1138>Hmm, normal time for me.
10:56<andythenorth>peter1138: 255 or bust
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11:06<andythenorth>actually, 32 is enough for any sensible case
11:06<andythenorth>32 cargos is enough
11:06<andythenorth>64 should be plenty
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11:13<andythenorth>who could need more?
11:18<peter1138>Well I ran out with 64 ;-)
11:18<andythenorth>64 is good
11:18<andythenorth>it's well beyond any kind of 80:20 limit
11:18<peter1138>Any what?
11:19<andythenorth>probably covers everybody but the lunatic fringe
11:19<andythenorth>anyone who asks for more is literally weird
11:19<peter1138>21:49 < frosch123> i would approve 64k railtypes :)
11:19<peter1138>Sounds like a challenge :-)
11:20<andythenorth>I can make a railtype grf generator
11:20<andythenorth>it's not hard
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11:20<andythenorth>I already generate, e.g. trains and boats :P
11:20<andythenorth>let's see
11:20<andythenorth>4 types of ground
11:20<andythenorth>4 types of sleepers
11:21<andythenorth>4 'rustiness' states
11:21<andythenorth>4 electrification types
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11:21<andythenorth>4 speed limits
11:22<andythenorth>hmm no, it's getting hard :P
11:22<peter1138>Well actually.
11:23<peter1138>GetRandomBits() could be improved.
11:23<LordAro>andythenorth: bad.
11:23<peter1138>We could use the original bits to make map-persistent random data. Not that anything probably uses it.
11:24<andythenorth>LordAro: found some more
11:24<andythenorth>2 states of allow crossings or not
11:24<peter1138>I found at least one XXX in NRT, too.
11:26<LordAro>andythenorth: well that's 11 bits
11:26<LordAro>i think only 4 speed limits is pretty low :p
11:26<andythenorth>let's do 8
11:26<peter1138>Did you see the list...
11:27<andythenorth>also 3rd rail is 2 bits
11:27<peter1138>"Modern high-speed mainline, crushed stone ballast, concrete ties, electrified (200 km/h)" and "... (220 km/h)"
11:27<andythenorth>and 4th rail
11:27<nielsm>why not unify road and rail entirely? :D
11:27<andythenorth>because I told my 8 yr old it can't be done
11:27<andythenorth>and I don't want to be wrong :P
11:30<peter1138>Why not!
11:30<peter1138>Basically trams are an abomination.
11:31<peter1138>I think it's way too late to consider trying to merge road and rail.
11:33<peter1138>Different properties, different behaviours.
11:33<andythenorth>way too late
11:33*andythenorth makes double-track canals
11:34<andythenorth>looks better
11:34<andythenorth>not wetrail hax :P
11:34<andythenorth>actual canals
11:36<peter1138>Wasn't someone using NRT to make wetroads?
11:36<peter1138>I'm sure I saw a pic.
11:38<peter1138>Apart from docks being shitty, you can do that with normal canal anyway, I guess.
11:40<peter1138>Hmm, well, amphibious road vehicle is slightly different and... hmm..
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11:44<andythenorth>mostly hmm
11:45<peter1138>Great for gameplay :p
11:45<peter1138>Is 16 rail types bad for gameplay?
11:46<andythenorth>it's bad
11:46<andythenorth>too many, or not enough
11:46<andythenorth>no goldilocks
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12:06<LANJesus>i'd say anything more than 5 is annoying
12:06<LANJesus>especially if they're mutually exclusive
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12:08<LANJesus>incompatible i mean
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12:58<andythenorth>pikka's AI is planting trees :P
13:03<peter1138>Improving its rating?
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13:11<peter1138>Oh jesus
13:11<Wolf01>They tell me that all the time
13:12<peter1138>North American Track Set : v1.0.1
13:12<peter1138>Has 29 GRF parameters...
13:12<Wolf01>That's the way
13:12<andythenorth>and the UI for parameters is so nice too :)
13:13<peter1138>You can set max speed, cost, and introduction year for each time.
13:13<peter1138>There is Very Low Speed, Low Speed, Medium Speed, High Speed, Very High Speed, Low Speed Narrow, High Speed Narrow...
13:14<LordAro>just make a GRF that does everything
13:14<peter1138>I bet there'd be more, but it uses all 16 rail types.
13:17<Wolf01>That's something I won't be able to use at all... I usually enable 3-6 railtypes
13:17<peter1138>Is it me or is it only GRF authors demanding more types?
13:17<peter1138>Do players actually use them all?
13:18<Wolf01>Don't hide away
13:22<peter1138>^ 2 byte version
13:23<andythenorth>it's a winner
13:23<peter1138>andythenorth, it'll "solve" the NRT problem too ;p
13:24<andythenorth>does NRT get 32 or 64 per type?
13:26<LordAro>peter1138: now do the bitset version :p
13:26<peter1138>LordAro :(
13:26<peter1138>andythenorth, just 1 I reckon.
13:31<peter1138>Gosh, it built.
13:32<peter1138>Of course, all the commands could do with reshuffling :S
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13:41<peter1138>Hmm, I didn't break it, at least.
13:43<peter1138>Can't test beyond the 'old' limit cos there aren't enough NRT sets yet.
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14:21<Gwyd> can I get some help?
14:22<Gwyd>I'm using Quast65's tutorial, but it doesn't explain how all the bits work
14:23<Gwyd>Wait nvm I've just not been looking hard enough
14:26<andythenorth>what's it supposed to be? o_O
14:30<Gwyd>uh hold on
14:30<Gwyd> Barnes station tiles, a station not far from me. I haven't even got to getting it laid out like this
14:32*LANJesus waves at Gwyd
14:32<Gwyd>Hello o/
14:33<andythenorth>such station
14:35<TrueBrain>nice work on PRs LordAro :)
14:35<Gwyd>Even on closer inspection I can't find anything deeply explaining the purpose of every byte
14:36<LordAro>TrueBrain: i should fix my own :)
14:37<peter1138>I got distracted :(
14:37<peter1138>But 64 road/tram types isn't enough?
14:37<andythenorth>it's plenty
14:37<andythenorth>32 road, 32 tram?
14:38<peter1138>64 each.
14:39<Gwyd>If you can find a use case for each simultaneously I will be astounded
14:40<peter1138>Apparently GRF authors can!
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14:40<andythenorth>64 each is plenty
14:40<peter1138>That's what I said about 16.
14:40<Gwyd>Well that's what railtypes tend to deal with
14:41<andythenorth>most of the game is about being able to make mods for the game eh :P
14:41<andythenorth>does anyone actually play it, except me? o_O
14:41*andythenorth biab
14:41<peter1138>So who wants to convince the other devs that extending the map array is okay? :p
14:41<frosch123>peter1138: i see potential for 2 tram type s:p
14:41<frosch123>imho tramtypes are entirely useless
14:41<peter1138>There's already a NewGRF with 6.
14:42<frosch123>i only saw roadtypes
14:42<frosch123>wasn't that about trolley busses?
14:43<peter1138>Apparently not.
14:43<peter1138>Rough, Basic and Modern, in plain and electrified styles.
14:44<frosch123>anyway, i liked that idea of an additional indirectional table
14:44<frosch123>256 or 64k combinations of road/tram/rail/ground/whatever types
14:45<peter1138>It would still be limited to 16 for rail types.
14:46<peter1138>Unless you mean something more involved than I was thinking.
14:46<frosch123>i read you added m8 or m9 or something
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14:47<peter1138>Currently I just moved railtype to m8 and unmerged road/tram type from m4 to m4 + m9.
14:47<peter1138>Using all 8 bits for now but only 64 types because of bitmasks.
14:48<frosch123>i think we already use std::bitmask in some places
14:48<frosch123>possibly industry types
14:49<peter1138>I don't see it anywhere.
14:49<frosch123> extern std::bitset<NUM_INDUSTRYTYPES> _displayed_industries; <- ok, there is exacly one usage :p
14:49<peter1138>Ah, bitset.
14:50<frosch123>ah, 2 even
14:50<frosch123>yeah, sorry, i do not use it often enough to remember
14:50<peter1138>Me neither :-)
14:50<peter1138>If the map is extended, there's no much point to having indirection.
14:51<peter1138>If the map isn't extended, then indirection (for rail types) gives you strange other limits
14:51<peter1138>Less pronounced for road/tram due to it being 8 bits.
14:51<frosch123>i did not follow nrt for a year, but last year it was all about visual differences like objects/stations, which did not care whether there was road or tram on top
14:51<peter1138>I saw JGRPP just borrows a bit to get to 32 rail types.
14:52<peter1138>I don't know how it works if you have electrified road and electrified tram, if that's possible.
14:52<peter1138>Well, type wise it's meaningless, just graphical.
14:53<frosch123>iirc at some point andy drew separate road catenary sprites, and they were drawn over each other. no idea whether that was finished/implemented though
14:54<frosch123>but ok, with more bits indirection can be postponed
14:55<peter1138>Well, there's another thing, managing the indirection list not necessarily simple, if it can change during game.
14:56<peter1138>Not impossible just more code to be written.
14:56<andythenorth>road has separate catenary sprites
14:57<frosch123>updatnig the list will likely desync in rare cases :) just like group and infra statistics still desync every now and then in unknown ways
15:05<peter1138>Well, adding it simplish. Removing either needs a counter or a full map scan on every removal. Not nice.
15:06<peter1138>Or if it's static, you gain nothing for railtypes
15:06<peter1138>But you do gain slightly for road/tramtypes.
15:06<peter1138>I think it's easier to just extend the array ;)
15:08<frosch123>since 32bpp blitter is default and we deprecate 32bit builds, map size is hardly noticeable
15:08<frosch123>if the arrays are mostly zero, they also do not affect multiplayer join times
15:08<peter1138>Hmm, hadn't considered size.
15:09<peter1138>Compressed size that is.
15:09<peter1138>We can just leave it all as is. What do authors know? :D
15:11<frosch123>was there a "devs dictate grf author what to do" vs "grf authors dictate devs what to do" discussion? :p
15:11<frosch123>i mostly skipped it :p
15:11<andythenorth>it was somewhat more rational than your framing :)
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15:13<andythenorth>snail has a good perspective on it
15:13<peter1138>No but we did explain why splitting "electrification type" off from railtype was not a feasible route and didn't gain anythhing.
15:13<andythenorth>but I might have driven KK away with my 'but I need 33' comment in the thread
15:13*andythenorth wrecking the community since 2008
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15:14<frosch123>peter1138: haha, i think that was the first thing i removed from nrt when i joined :)
15:14<andythenorth>it was
15:15<andythenorth>if only I'd carried on my 'catenary' patch....
15:15<peter1138>Don't think I was paying attention to ottd then :)
15:17<frosch123>now that LA is active, i can focus on bananas at least
15:27<andythenorth>peter1138: it was a flag for catenary on/off on tramways :P
15:27<andythenorth>which is all I wanted anyway :P
15:38<peter1138> Heh
15:39<peter1138>Hmm, is out of date film useful for anyone? :P
15:41<nielsm>photographic film? yes
15:41<nielsm>sell it as "lomo" and you can get higher price than new stock
15:41<nielsm>(only slightly joking)
15:43<Wolf01>Mmmh, must reboot
15:43<Wolf01>BBL again
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15:46<peter1138>this->railtypes != RAILTYPES_NONE
15:46<peter1138>Hmm, wonder how to convert that to bitset style.
15:46<frosch123>any() ?
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16:15<peter1138>It looks like we load avail_railtypes from savegames for very old versions.
16:16<peter1138>However, it's always recaculated anyway.
16:16<Wolf01>Maybe it wasn't at that time
16:18<peter1138>It predates railtypes, heh.
16:20<Wolf01>Also, win10 1803, wow features, such glazed, much fast
16:20<+glx>I'll wait
16:20<Wolf01>It was crying to install the update
16:22<peter1138>Hmm, commit a4e045a3fbb04
16:22<peter1138>"remove the need for saving some vehicle variables"
16:22<peter1138>Looks like it actually slipped in there, cos it's not a vehicle variable, and nothing else in that commit touches that one.
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16:42<peter1138>Hmm, why was I converting it to a bitset? :p
16:43<LordAro>because better!
16:44<peter1138>I'm concerned that HasBit(bitset, f) still works somehow.
16:44<peter1138>More likely it's undefined, but it doesn't error.
16:45<LordAro>overloaded operators? HasBit is templated, iirc
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16:46<peter1138>Hmm, I see, it'll be comparing but at the wrong level. It'll work but be doing more than it needs to.
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16:52<peter1138>Okay, manually overrode HasBit and found a load of warnings
16:55<peter1138>I could just override HasBit to work.
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17:09<GT>I am switching to git, having used svn and hg for openttd before. One question: I succeeded in cloning the repo, and git branch shows me the master. But according to there should also be a release/1.8 branch. I did a git fetch, but branch shows up. How can I get a remote branch?
17:10<GT>*no branch shows up obviously
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17:15<peter1138>git checkout release/1.8 should do it.
17:15<LordAro>git branch -a to show remote branches
17:16<peter1138>git checkout -b release/1.8 "origin"/release/1.8 (where "origin" is the name of the github repo)
17:17<LordAro>does the first not work? i'd expect it to
17:17<peter1138>Doesn't for me.
17:18<peter1138>Hmm, OpenTTD 1.8.0~1
17:19<peter1138>It's possible that git doesn't actually like branches with / in?
17:19<peter1138>error: pathspec 'release/1.8' did not match any file(s) known to git.
17:19<LordAro>mm, possible
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17:23<GT>git branch -a does indeed show the remotes/origin/release/x.x branches
17:24<peter1138>Anyway, there's also tags. If you actually want to work with the 1.8 release, you might just want to checkout 1.8.0
17:25<peter1138>(but less useful for making local changes)
17:25<GT>git checkout release/1.8
17:25<GT> :Branch 'release/1.8' set up to track remote branch 'release/1.8' from 'origin'.
17:25<GT>Switched to a new branch 'release/1.8'
17:25<peter1138>Well then :-)
17:25<GT>seems to work if the checkout is done, the branch is listed
17:25<peter1138>Because the branch is now local.
17:26<GT>Thank, I expected the fetch to make it available locally, but obviously the checkout is needed
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17:29<peter1138>Oh, ETS 2 Italia is vaguely reduced... Hmm...
17:30<peter1138>Hmm, it's more reduced as a bundle with just that in it :p
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17:42<peter1138>I wonder how the range testing of std::bitset affects performance. Not enough to profile it :p
17:45<+glx><peter1138> Hmm, it's more reduced as a bundle with just that in it :p <-- usual, and the bundle is indirectly findable
17:46<+glx>probably reduced because 1.31 is just released
17:48<+glx>indeed indirect, ets2 page -> italia dlc page -> bundle page
17:48<peter1138>Ok, trying to play with keyboard was a bad idea.
17:48<peter1138>Managing to roll my truck on a roundabout outside the garagea :p
17:49<+glx>never tried keyboard
17:49<+glx>I used gamepad then bought a g27
18:02<peter1138>Can't be bothered putting the G27 on my desk. First-world problems.
18:13<FLHerne>peter1138: If you want to rejig the map array, why not grab some of cirdan's work? He already did that :P
18:14<FLHerne>(custom bridgeheads ftw)
18:16<peter1138>Because it's very difficult to take *just* the map changes and nothing else.
18:17<FLHerne>Ah, too much stuff on top of them?
18:18<FLHerne>At least he seems to have a sane commit history, unlike a lot of the large patchsets
18:20<FLHerne>I guess they depend on some of his other misc. cleanup changes, but aren't those worth having in their own right?
18:20<peter1138>Just the map changes are massive, tbh.
18:22<peter1138>The map accessors are now indirect to tile accessors.
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18:29<peter1138>And anyway, the array isn't extended.
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18:55<Eddi|zuHause>just a random entry from the "odd time signatures" collection:
19:00<peter1138>Just another Jay Foreman.
19:02<peter1138>Seen him perform loads of times. Not seen his brother yet though.
19:03<peter1138> < I'm in the front row, also recording for the video.
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---Logclosed Tue May 15 00:00:12 2018