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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-05-18

---Logopened Fri May 18 00:00:16 2018
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02:44<peter1138>Meh @ ships
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02:56*andythenorth needs to learn to type, quite badly
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04:21<andythenorth>how do you apply a gist anyway/
04:22<andythenorth>damn keyboard now working, there's a class action suit against fruit company now
04:22<andythenorth>now / not /s
04:35<peter1138>Copy and paste it?
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06:14<peter1138>Has anyone ever got anywhere with clustering for pathfinding for ships?
06:18<V453000>set max_ships 0
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06:25<Eddi|zuHause>i think there were one or two patches, ages ago
06:33<andythenorth>there's a ship separation path
06:33<andythenorth>tries to keep them on separate tiles or something
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>that's something completely different
06:53<andythenorth>does peter mean caching paths?
06:53<andythenorth>for performance?
06:53<andythenorth>I though he had a patch for that :P
06:53<Xaroth>Wait, he doesn't have a patch for that?
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>"clustering" means "treat large bodies of water as one block"
06:54<andythenorth>? o_O
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>large bodies of water have the problem that there are lots of paths through them which have equivalent lengths, making pathfinding very inefficient
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>if you can reliably identify these blocks
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>then you can reduce the complexity/search space of the pathfinder
06:56<andythenorth>how is a block bounded?
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>nobody knows
06:56<andythenorth>it's arbitrary how any connected body of water is sliced into blocks
06:56<andythenorth>unless a heuristic is proposed :P
06:57<andythenorth>human brain would want to reduce it to things that look like seas or lakes
06:57<andythenorth>but the maths might not work that way
06:57<peter1138>Yeah, that's why I'm asking :-)
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>i would imagine making rectangles
06:57*andythenorth wonders if there's a vector space for it
06:57<peter1138>It's start with 16x16 chunks or something like that.
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>smallest rectangle is one tile
06:57<peter1138>But yeah, it doesn't exactly fit.
06:58<peter1138>I have a patch to cache paths.
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>and then you merge adjacent rectangles
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>until you have nothing left to merge
06:58<andythenorth>for every tile, there are vectors to every other tile
06:58<andythenorth>some vectors will cluster
06:58<peter1138>It actually works really well, until the landscape gets change.
06:58<andythenorth>vectors are probably computationally intense, and demanding on RAM
06:58<andythenorth>we made a vector space for YouTube videos once :P
06:58<peter1138>Save/load would be an issue of course.
06:59<peter1138>I can solve some pathfinding cpu consumption issues simply by limiting the code to not bother pathfinding if the distance is greater than the existing max-order distance.
06:59<peter1138>(That check is only there when adding orders, not when pathfinding.)
07:00*andythenorth has randomly stupid ideas
07:00<andythenorth>I mean you could do this
07:01<peter1138>This leaves one (afaik) remaining issue: trying to pathfind to an unreachable destination which is within that limit is still very expensive.
07:01<andythenorth>but we could also just make the game build navigation points (lighthouses) on a grid, and everybody has to route ships 'via flinborough lighthouse' or whatever
07:01<andythenorth>replacing silly buoys
07:01<andythenorth>divide the map into sectors somehow, of fixed size
07:02*andythenorth back to GDPR fun
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>there was a patch once that placed random buoys on the map and divided the water into regions that way
07:03<peter1138>fixed-size sectors break when you have areas within a sector that are separate don't reach.
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>so pathfinding across multiple regions would just go between buoys
07:04<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, interesting.
07:04<andythenorth>having to place buoys is really annoying for some reason
07:04<andythenorth>it's very hard to predict which routes will need them
07:04<peter1138>But you have to know which automatic buoys are reachable, I suppose.
07:04<peter1138>But that can be a much smaller search area.
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07:05<peter1138>There's the "flood fill regions to determine reachability" but that requires additional storage and needs to be updates when the map is changed.
07:06<peter1138>And that only 'solves' the unreachable case, not 'difficult' paths.
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>might be this one
07:07<peter1138>Region index, heh. There we go.
07:07<peter1138>64k regions.
07:07<peter1138>That could be exceeded, I guess.
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could just cut out the smallest regions, and fall back to tile mode
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>another attempt to cut down on ship pathfinding cost is to reduce the number of pathfinder calls by storing the found path (kinda like reservations), instead of rerunning the pathfinder on every tile
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>on a first approximation, store in each ship "go in a straight line for X tiles"
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>all tiles inbetween would skip the pathfinder call, and just choose the continuing trackbit
07:26<peter1138>Yes, that works, I have a patch for it :p
07:27<peter1138>Just has issues when landscape is changed currently.
07:27<peter1138>And of course not multiplayer safe.
07:27<peter1138>(I couldn't easily figure out how to save a std::stack :-))
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>well, doesn't need a stack if you just store the first leg of the path
07:31<peter1138>Also doesn't work for my current worst-case of unreachable destination.
07:32<peter1138>Well, the pathfinder works on trackbits, not directions, so you basically need to store each tile as a step.
07:32<andythenorth>anyone want an SRE job? o_O
07:32*andythenorth is taking long shots :P
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: well, a "direction" is either a sequence of the same straight trackbit, or an alternating sequence of diagonal tackbits
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>it should also be easy to adjust pathfinder penalties to try to minimize turns
07:38<peter1138>Also wondering about making ships take turn pathfinding.
07:38<peter1138>Cos setting 100 ships off at once causes mayhem.
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>one-ship-per-tile would solve that?
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>or, per trackbit
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>or whatever
07:39<peter1138>With a massive drawback.
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>it would suffice to impose that limit on leaving a dock
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>or shipyard
07:45<andythenorth>forcing a delay on ships leaving dock/depot might be really interesting
07:45<andythenorth>just enough to fix some ship problems without nerfing them totally
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07:46<Eddi|zuHause2>state machines
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07:46<Eddi|zuHause>i would never say that
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>i would say
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>*cough*state machines*cough*
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>but that also has nothing to do with the topic discussed here
07:57<andythenorth>each tile is a state machine :P
07:57<andythenorth>how about 'seas' that are state machines :P
08:00<andythenorth>why can't Google find an image of the hexagonal columns that naturally form in boiling oil?
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08:22<peter1138>Fuck money.
08:27<andythenorth>lo Pikka
08:27<andythenorth>peter1138: is that a koan of some kind?
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09:09<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: pathfinding through statemachines will be another crazy nightmare :p
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10:13*peter1138 grumbles at irc channels switching to gitter. Pain in the arse :(
10:14<Pikka>grumble grumble
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10:15<LANJesus>does gitter have an IRC gateway?
10:16<peter1138>Doubt it
10:16<peter1138>Seems they do but you need to login and shit :S
10:19<peter1138>I'll give it a go, thanks for pointing it out :p
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>what's a gitter?
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10:29<andythenorth>some new thing
10:29<LANJesus>well yeah, i'd expect some kind of authentication for gitter
10:30<LANJesus>they better support sasl ; )
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10:46<peter1138>No need, SSL is better.
10:51<LANJesus>i use CertFP/SASL when possible. no password needed
10:52<LANJesus>authentication based on my SSL fingerprint
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11:08<FLHerne>peter1138: I did wonder at one point why virtually all ship paths can't be cached
11:09<FLHerne>Unlike the other ground vehicles, they don't collide or anything, so the best path between two tiles will never change unless someone landscapes the map
11:10<FLHerne>And the actual number of docks/buoys/water-industries served is relatively low, so it would be perfectly feasible to simply cache the complete path for every pair
11:10<@Alberth>or until you implement ship collision avoiding like hackalittlebit did
11:11<Xaroth>Ship collision would be neat
11:11<FLHerne>(on first use, so you only store the pairs that are actually used, obv)
11:12<@Alberth>the killer is more in lost ships, I think
11:12<@Alberth>which by definition is not a known path :p
11:12<@Alberth>and it's tried every frame
11:12<peter1138>Well, every new tile.
11:12<@Alberth>fair enough
11:13<peter1138>I've "solved" the other cases, it's just the unreachable case which sucks CPU now.
11:13<FLHerne>peter1138: Well, can't /that/ be cached until someone flips a water bit?
11:14<FLHerne>If it was unreachable before, it'll stay unreachable until there's more water
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11:14<peter1138>Yeah but where do you cache it?
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>you just store a body-of-water-ID in the map?
11:15<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, that link you gave earlier might be useful.
11:16<@Alberth>switching to JPS would remove most of the open/closed list operations
11:16<FLHerne>VF_PATHFINDER_LOST is already a thing, right?
11:16<peter1138>Looks like a big patch though.
11:16<peter1138>FLHerne, yeah, it's not a problem for 1 ship
11:16<FLHerne>So my idea is that you have a global (well,per-map...) flag for whether someone poked a water bit this frame
11:16<peter1138>But when you have 200 all trying to do it...
11:16<FLHerne>Oh, I see the problem
11:17<FLHerne>Meh, I'll carry on explaining first :P
11:17<peter1138>They'll still all do the pathfinding and cause a freeze.
11:17<peter1138>Maybe we should lower the node limit :-)
11:17<peter1138>It's 10000 at the moment.
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>but!! 16kx16k maps with ships going one trip around the map border?
11:18<FLHerne>Have the build-water and flood operations set that bit
11:18<@Alberth>have a max number of ships doing pathfinding each round, others are queued
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>5k ships, of course
11:18<peter1138>I think the pathfinder could do with a max-distance check as well.
11:18<FLHerne>Then when doing pathfinding, if (this ship is lost) and (water hasn't changed), skip
11:19<FLHerne>Because it'll always fail
11:19<peter1138>Alberth, yeah, I've considered that.
11:19<@Alberth>FLHerne: but it moved to a new tile, it may be findable now
11:19<FLHerne>Alberth: Only with the distance limits, which are a stupid hack
11:20<FLHerne>Hm, too harsh :P
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: sometimes ships are lost because of dead ends/90° turns disabled/whatever that is dependent on the ship position
11:20<peter1138>If you want to remove the distance limits, you need a different path finder.
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11:21<peter1138>Alberth, any idea how to add JPS? :)
11:21<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: And that's bloody annoying when ships get 'lost' in canal basins and rivers for three tiles until they change direction and sort themselves out
11:21<FLHerne>The PF should know about reversing
11:21<andythenorth>'just' enable 90º turns
11:21<andythenorth>it's a stupid feature anyway :)
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: imho the 90° thing is just pointless, and ships should be able to turn in-place
11:22<peter1138>90° turns should be allowed for ships.
11:22<andythenorth>it's even realism :P
11:22<FLHerne>The problem I saw was that ships don't pathfind every frame, so a single 'changed' flag would get missed
11:22<FLHerne>There do seem to be other ones
11:23<peter1138>Pathfinding every frame would make it worse
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have a clue who came up with the idea that 90° turns should apply to both trains AND ships
11:23<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Ok, that's a better idea
11:23<@Alberth>peter1138: JPS assumes center of tile as position, while we use center of edge, so jps assumes 8 directions, we have 6. That's the biggest adaption to make.
11:23<@Alberth>otherwise, jps is quite easy
11:25<@Alberth>in the diagonal case, jps branches out both horizontally and vertically, while we probably would do only one direction
11:26<@Alberth>no idea how that article is related to artificial-intelligence :p
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>pathfinding is a basic AI topic...
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>AI is not just neural networks :p
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11:55<@Alberth>hmm, they mangled the code layout :(
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12:23<nielsm>okay maybe I should actually ask this... does anyone know if original TTD has any preferred timer frequencies for frame lengths or anything like that?
12:24<nielsm>because in my DOS music decoding code I've just sort-of guessed that 6.5 ms gives a good approximation of the correct tempo, when I decode a "frame" of music on that interval
12:24<nielsm>but there might be a more correct value hidden somewhere
12:29<nielsm>hmm there is actually a magical number 148 as part of the tempo code in the music decoder, maybe that's the actual rate intended, since 148 hz = every 6.757 ms
12:31<nielsm>(I don't see the "music frame rate" directly in the disassembly of the DOS music driver, since that gets called as an interrupt from the game, and the main game engine is responsible for the timing of that interrupt call)
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12:46<nielsm>yeah 148 hz does seem to match the tempo of the windows version midi files perfectly, based on just a listening test
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12:52<nielsm>okay I made a mistake somewhere
12:55<peter1138>Hmm, so only allowing one ship out of a depot a time helps.
12:56<peter1138>Spreads out the pathfinding a bit.
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12:57<peter1138>With 100 ships it even still goes faster in FFWD.
12:57<peter1138>Adds a bit of a bottleneck though.
13:01<@Alberth>they eventually do spread themselves out over the route anyway :)
13:05<peter1138>Middle commit is shitty with the table in it. Couldn't see an equivalent function :p
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13:08<peter1138>So not quite a fix for ship pathfinding, just a series of kluges.
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13:15<peter1138>Hmm, continue coding, or Minecraft?
13:15<Xaroth>why not both?
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13:25<peter1138>Woo 16 diamonds.
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13:52<Xaroth>well what?
13:53<peter1138>I guess he's reviewing NRT
13:53<andythenorth>I think we should just commit tbh
13:53<andythenorth>and sweep up the mess later
13:53<peter1138>Time to prune my tree farm.
13:54<andythenorth>I like this
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13:58<Xaroth>but it used to be fun to send out 500 ships at the same time :(
14:02<Wolf01>I like this
14:02<andythenorth>wondered when you'd mention that
14:02<andythenorth>new valve
14:02<andythenorth>there are very high res images linked from Eurobricks
14:03<andythenorth>I'm buying the forest harvester, it's really awful
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14:28<peter1138>Yay it built
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15:03<andythenorth>playing tanks again
15:07<peter1138>Good ol' Blitzkrieg
15:18<andythenorth>tanks have camo
15:18<andythenorth>can choose them
15:18<andythenorth>maybe alberth knows how ottd GUI works?
15:18<andythenorth>credits say he's a GUI Wizard or something :)
15:18<@Alberth>I didn't write that credits :p
15:25<nielsm>maybe they meant to say lizard
15:29<Wolf01><andythenorth> new valve <- I hope is easier to motorize
15:29<andythenorth>looks made for it
15:29<Wolf01>I don't want to put a servo for that... servos drain battery really fast
15:29<andythenorth>now just need an S motor
15:29<Wolf01>Eh, that :(
15:30<andythenorth>they made nearly everything ever wanted
15:30<andythenorth>new pneumatics, all that jazz
15:31<Wolf01>Bigger turntable
15:31<Wolf01>(already with BWE)
15:31<Wolf01>I still need to build the BWE :(
15:31<andythenorth>giant wheels
15:31<andythenorth>only thing I lack is an S motor
15:31<andythenorth>all other ideas covered
15:32<Wolf01>I would like PF valves
15:33<andythenorth>bit too specialised imho :)
15:33<andythenorth>and probably $$$$
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15:34<Wolf01>Also I want helicoidal gears
15:35<peter1138>What I want is...
15:36<Wolf01>NRT on master
15:42<andythenorth>1 commit is all it takes
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15:53<peter1138>Hmm, how do you get the sprite aligner up?
15:55<andythenorth>? menu
15:55<peter1138>Gotta enable it in the config. Done now.
15:55<peter1138>So I have a patch here to add zoom in/out buttons :p
15:59<peter1138>Not that it applies of course.
15:59<peter1138>It's only 4 years old though.
16:05<peter1138>Heh, the old patches to scale images differently.
16:06<peter1138>How weird.
16:08<andythenorth>let's not though :)
16:09<peter1138>It's pre-32bpp-grfs.
16:09<andythenorth>it's uncanny valley
16:09<andythenorth>it's nearly brilliant
16:09<andythenorth>but not quite
16:09<peter1138>Oh look!
16:12<andythenorth>it's like a tour of all the things we can't have :)
16:12<Wolf01>Devs are mean, I leave :(
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16:13<peter1138>That's not actually Pikka...
16:13<+glx>cosmetic work needed tor the half rivers
16:15<Wolf01> I'm still waiting for this
16:16<peter1138>I spent time doing that at some point... why...
16:16<andythenorth>Wolf01: bad community
16:16<andythenorth>i drew the half-rivers :P
16:16<andythenorth>then I rage quit
16:17<andythenorth>peter1138: 'because you could' :P
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16:38<__ln__>maybe you should divide it by 8
16:38<Wolf01>ln is right
16:39<LordAro>maybe take the natural log of 8
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16:43<peter1138>Hmm, where did I leave my tablet...
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17:15<andythenorth>sleep time
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18:14<peter1138>Hmm... how to store a value which can be a DiagDir or an Axis?
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18:40<Eddi|zuHause>have it be a DiagDir and for the cases where it's an Axis assert it doesn't use any values outside DiagDirToAxis()?
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>or use modern concepts like polymorphism
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18:42<peter1138>That's not so helpful for stuffing into 3 bits in the map array.
18:42<peter1138>Nor do I want to rewrite the whole game.
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>but as far as i know, Axis is a subset of DiagDir, right?
18:43<peter1138>DiagDir is compass directions.
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you have 2 axes and 8 diagdirs
18:44<peter1138>Just 4 diagdirs.
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>ah, 8 directions, 4 diagdirs and 2 axes
18:46<peter1138>Right, but that's irrelevant.
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>but there definitely were these conversion functions like "AxisToDiagDir"
18:46<peter1138>I have 6 values.
18:46<peter1138>No, DiagDir or Axis.
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>why is there need to differentiate that? surely the axis is just the diagdir modulo up/down
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>NE/SW == X, NW/SE == Y, or so
18:49<peter1138>DiagDir is half a tile (single direction), Axis is a full tile (bi directional)
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>i'm afraid i'm missing some context on what you're trying to achieve
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---Logclosed Sat May 19 00:00:17 2018