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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-05-20

---Logopened Sun May 20 00:00:19 2018
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02:33<andythenorth>o/
02:40<@Alberth>moin
02:40<Pikka>o/
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02:45<andythenorth>is it done then Pikka?
02:45<Pikka>more or less
02:45<andythenorth>it's nice to play a game with
02:45<andythenorth>better than playing MP with humans :P
02:46<andythenorth>it's not very good at amusing chat though
02:46<Pikka>true
02:47<andythenorth>I had 2 of them in my game
02:48<Pikka>two is a good number
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02:49<Pikka>and they seem to be a little less prone to traffic jams now that they don't build bus stops on top of each other. maybe.
02:57*andythenorth looks in game
02:58<andythenorth>they've made some 30 tile jams, but nothing deadlocked
02:58<andythenorth>they're not competing in the same cities, which helps
03:04<@Alberth>and not in city that you serve :)
03:13<andythenorth>I serve it with trains
03:13<andythenorth>they grow it with buses :P
03:13<@Alberth>:)
03:17<andythenorth>what laptops do people buy now?
03:17*andythenorth has no idea how to know which ones are good
03:17<andythenorth>it used to be 'just buy Dell'
03:18*andythenorth on the HP store, very confusing
03:20<debdog>https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-t400/
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03:24<andythenorth>dissapointingly 'best high end laptops' reviews are saying buy a mac :x
03:25<andythenorth>or a Surface
03:25<andythenorth>but Surface has ridiculous failure rate due to silly engineering
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03:46<peter1138>debdog, what is this, 2006?
03:51<andythenorth>I found some kind of Lenovo thing
03:52<andythenorth>same crap battery life as what I've got though ~55 watt hours
03:52<andythenorth>based on 'what laptop to buy in 2018' reviews, it's not currently possible to buy a good laptop of any kind :P
03:56<nielsm>the personal computer is dying
03:57<andythenorth>we have ipad pros for the kids
03:57<andythenorth>they're awesome
03:57<andythenorth>unless you want to type, or use a real OS
03:57<andythenorth>although the plugin keyboard solves typing :P
03:57<nielsm>rent a server somewhere and use a chromebook as thin client
03:57<andythenorth>but iOS is total crap
03:58<andythenorth>I could get a VT220 terminal :P
03:58<andythenorth>one colour, saves on GPU
04:12<peter1138>Er, what does it mean when you have a DirDiff of 5?
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04:38<peter1138>Cool, got it working.
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>dirdiff is in 45° steps, so you have 8 steps for 360°?
04:39<peter1138>Yeah, it means 135 deg rotation, but those are not listed in the enum for some reason.
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it assumed some kind of normalization?
04:41<peter1138>Possibly.
04:41<peter1138>Hmm, awkard, there's a 1 position shift :S
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04:45<peter1138>The enum documents that it only contains 6 of the 8.
04:45<peter1138>And you can just add together to get the remaining two.
04:45<peter1138>Seems odd :p
05:01<peter1138>Oh, interesting.
05:01<peter1138>I accidentally made it so that the viewport is only refreshed every MILLISECONDS_PER_TICK.
05:02<peter1138>That means in FFWD with no much going on, several game ticks happen before anything is drawn.
05:02<peter1138>Super-FFWD!
05:02<andythenorth>is it super fast? o_O
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05:03<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't sound too unreasonable
05:03<peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/superffwd.png
05:03<peter1138>There's a bit of income there :p
05:05<peter1138>I changed the income text to move in realtime as well, so yeah, it sticks around.
05:05<+michi_cc>Bah, who disallowed using µ in OTTD sources?
05:05<peter1138>Is it disallowed?
05:05<+michi_cc>"b/src/music/dmusic.cpp:37: Non-ASCII found:"
05:05<peter1138>Hmm, oh, maybe there's some test about ASCII or something. Probably an oversight?
05:05<+michi_cc>It's in a comment.
05:06<Eddi|zuHause>we discussed the possibility of allowing utf-8 in code files recently
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05:07<andythenorth>bbbls
05:07<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what came out of it
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05:08<peter1138>michi_cc, changes to src/debug.cpp too?
05:10<+michi_cc>Was too lazy to do another PR for that.
05:10<peter1138>o_O
05:14<peter1138>Hmm, I wonder if I can prevent ships driving into the dock after finishing loading.
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>by allowing ships to turn inplace and pathfinding in all directions on start?
05:16<nielsm>michi_cc, I'm not entirely sure, but I think the reason my "Sleep(100) hack" works for making all-notes-off actually transmit when the game exits in current dmusic player is just that it allows other threads to process messages, i.e. lets whatever background thread dmusic uses also run its message loop a few times
05:16<nielsm>so it shouldn't need to depend on anything actual timing-related
05:16<nielsm>in fact even Sleep(0) might be enough
05:17<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, I've got the turn in place thing working.
05:18<peter1138>Pathfinding only happens on a new tile, the issue is loading also happens on a new tile, and once it's finished loading, it's now on that tile and is permitted to travel across it... (into the dock)
05:20<+michi_cc>nielsm: Whatever performance Stop does, I couldn't exactly replicate it anyway because I fail to see how to stop an already submitted buffer. As such, the new TransmitNotesOff does a sleep anyway.
05:20<peter1138>Hmm, actually loading happens once it's in the new tile. Maybe doing it before would help.
05:21<nielsm>michi_cc: ahh
05:24<@Alberth>so a switch from eg NE to N is first straight to the edge and then diagonal?
05:24<+michi_cc>nielsm: I don't own a HW synth though, so it of course might not work like I think it works :)
05:25<nielsm>michi_cc I think it might be okay to also just let dmusic only support the softsynth, and leave hardware synth support to the win32 driver
05:28<peter1138>Oh, found a simple solution. When finished unloading, just force a reverse.
05:28<peter1138>Ideally it should only do that if it's directly facing the dock though.
05:28<nielsm>this sounds dumb, routing midi out to my cheap electric piano, it only has 10 instruments or so, so most things get mapped to piano
05:29<peter1138>nielsm, should I've plug my synth in? It's only got 8 voices, and it's analogue modelling...
05:30<peter1138>Looks a lot better when reversing after docking anyway
05:30<peter1138>Just need to check if the current direction matches the dock direction? Hmm.
05:34<nielsm>http://0x0.st/se6B.MP3 <-- mic-to-speakers recording so also features some bonus bird peeping
05:35<@Alberth>tile + 1 == dock :)
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: maybe you should still just perform pathfinding in both directions, like when deciding for trains whether they should reverse in station?
05:36<@Alberth>preparing for drive-through docks
05:36<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, no point, if it's facing the dock there'll never be a path.
05:36<peter1138>Alberth, hahah
05:36<nielsm>peter1138: playing GM music through totally inappropriate synths is part of the fun!
05:37<peter1138>nielsm, I had a Gravis Ultrasound back in the day. It was supposedly really good but lack of memory made *everything* a compromise.
05:38<peter1138>I had the 256KB model. The 1MB model was a lot better. Percussion tendded to lose out on the smaller one.
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: yeah, but it'll catch other cases like dock-in-river where the ship is maybe continuing on the river but maybe turning back?
05:38<nielsm>my first decent-sounding midi synth was an AWE64
05:38<nielsm>I believe I still have the card, but not sure if it works (and don't have a PC with ISA slot anyway)
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>i had an AWE32
05:38<peter1138>Hmm, ok. Doesn't need to pathfind though. Just check if the next tile is traversable.
05:41<+michi_cc>nielsm: It doesn't sound too bad, John Broomhall seems to have done quite a good job :)
05:42<nielsm>damn the brass parts sound so nice on the SC-55 :)
05:42<nielsm>also the bass
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>i remember being totally blown away by one of the midi demos that came with the AWE32
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>(before that the only sound i had was from the speaker)
05:50<peter1138>Yay, working.
05:51<peter1138>Hmm, should we have a NewGRF property... turning speed. :p
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06:01<peter1138>Do ships drive or sail?
06:02<peter1138>I'll go with move :p
06:02<@Alberth>+1
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06:05<Eddi|zuHause>i'd prefer "drive" over "sail"
06:06<peter1138>The old title game is saved with one of the hovercraft already heading into the dock.
06:06<peter1138>I don't bother preventing that :p
06:09<@Alberth>:)
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06:10<@Alberth>"float" :)
06:10<nielsm>"go"!
06:10<peter1138>Grr, twitch.tv has OpenTTD listed as "Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe" :(
06:10<nielsm>or travel
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>sue them? :p
06:17<peter1138>Hmm, I think I need to use TrainExitDir
06:18<peter1138>Which is static inline in train_cmd.cpp o_O
06:18<peter1138>q
06:18<peter1138>Oo, not vim.
06:21<peter1138>Hmm, TileAddByDir is also not good enough when moving N
06:23<peter1138>Ok, better.
06:25<FLHerne>peter1138: Using exactly the order-distance limit isn't going to work well
06:25<peter1138>FLHerne, probably needs a little extra, indeed.
06:25<FLHerne>peter1138: If a boat happens to leave the dock going in the wrong direction, it'll immediately be over the limit and get lost :-/
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>you can easily go 2*limit
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>when the point is that there is *some* limit, it doesn't have to be so strict
06:31<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, the point of the limit is to reduce pathfinding cost, so 2* is a bit excessive.
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06:37<peter1138>Right, that tweak works better. It didn't work on non-diagonal directions.
06:38<andythenorth_>Pikka: so US Horse, just a GP40 then?
06:45<peter1138>https://www.twitch.tv/peter1138 < yay stuck :p
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06:51<andythenorth_>lawks
06:52<andythenorth_>twitch crashed my phone :p
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06:56<peter1138>Oh no!
06:56<peter1138>And I closed it now anyway.
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07:09<Pikka>lawks indeeed
07:32<nielsm>I've spent almost £18,000 listening to music this game
07:32<nielsm>(loan interest and "other" expenses for almost 8 years of game time doing nothing)
07:32<peter1138>You can pretend you are an audiophool!
07:33<peter1138>£18,000? That's just the oxygen-free directional power cable.
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>"glutenfree","bio"?
07:34<peter1138>Ok, when skipping drawing the viewport in the title game, months pass by at about the same rate as days when not skipping.
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>you mean finally fast forward is actually fast?
07:35<peter1138>Only when not much is going on.
07:35<peter1138>The old title game is pretty minimal.
07:35<peter1138>Pikka-update!"
07:35<peter1138>-"
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: so actually, we will get more reports of "fast-forward is not fast", because now the discrepancy between empty map and full map is even bigger?
07:36<peter1138>Right.
07:36<peter1138>I'm going to fix this so it doesn't skip.
07:42<peter1138>orudge, does your changes pile include Windows gesture support?
08:08<Pikka>Pikka-update <- such as it is :P
08:08<Pikka>too much uni this week
08:44<+michi_cc>nielsm: Thanks for the look.
08:44<peter1138>michi_cc, building it now
08:46<peter1138>Hmm, sounds different to the win32 driver.
08:47<peter1138>Didn't expect that.
08:47<peter1138>No reverb with win32.
08:47<+michi_cc>peter1138: The default DirectMusic synth is *not* the normal Windows MCI synth.
08:47<peter1138>Ahh
08:47<peter1138>:-)
08:48<+michi_cc>If both APIs had the identical soft synth backend, I wouldn't have bothered.
08:49<nielsm>michi_cc, and it merged with my dosmusic branch easily as well, so all is good :)
08:50<+michi_cc>I think you had a small change to the dmusic driver writing out the smf file, that should be unnecessary then.
08:50<nielsm>yes
08:50<nielsm>instead it needs to check the music file type and call the MPS MIDI loader
08:50<nielsm>maybe that part should also be abstracted...
08:50<nielsm>or moved to midifile.cpp so it can be shared
08:50<nielsm>+rather
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08:53<peter1138>Hmm, someone posted the Doom music... isn't that somewhat copyrighted?
08:53<nielsm>yeah
08:53<nielsm>it shouldn't be on bananas
08:53<andythenorth>how long is copyright now?
08:53<andythenorth>probably longer than that
08:53<nielsm>more than 25 years ;)
08:54<andythenorth>it's 50 years since 1968 though eh
08:54<andythenorth>time flies :P
08:55<nielsm>michi_cc, when playing the TTO theme I get a little time compression at the very beginning, as if the first 200 ms or so are compressed into one instant
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>some initialisation missing?
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08:59<nielsm>you don't hear it with the original_windows set since gm_tt00.gm has a bunch of delay at the beginning, but it's also slightly apparent in the Modern Motion theme
09:00<nielsm>(to be fair, TTD DOS running in dosbox actually has a similar problem with songs hurrying a bit right at the beginning)
09:01<nielsm>(hmm, I should make a utility to pack standard midi files into .cat format so you can use any music with ttd dos :)
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>so just add some delay for all files you convert?
09:02<nielsm>(alternatively, write a new music driver for ttd dos that calls something entirely different to play mp3's or whatever :D)
09:02<+michi_cc>nielsm: Can you try adding "playback_start_time += _playback.preload_time * MS_TO_REFTIME;" after line 675?
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>TTOPatch?
09:05<nielsm>trying
09:05<nielsm>yeah that seems to fix it
09:08<nielsm>btw, regarding the start/end point and loop flag, I have that in my win32 driver because of the other misc music fixes, the 6 latest commits here: https://github.com/nielsmh/OpenTTD/commits/newmusic
09:09<nielsm>one of those is fixing the delays in the original_windows gm_tt00.gm file ;)
09:19<peter1138>Hmm, okay, I kinda want a daylength patch ;(
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09:50<andythenorth>such daylength
10:02<_dp_>hm, that reminds me of one more GS patch I wanted to do...
10:06<peter1138>Looping the year? That would probably suffice.
10:07<peter1138>Whew, my nose
10:07<peter1138>Just made some horseradish.
10:08<andythenorth>come back pikka
10:10*andythenorth is planning north american Horse
10:12<andythenorth>stuff like this is OP for most ottd games https://www.american-rails.com/images/WendoverWP402.jpg
10:12<andythenorth>- nerf the stats?
10:12<andythenorth>- leave it out? (there are plenty of smaller trains)
10:12<andythenorth>- nerf the freight wagon capacity to force longer trains?
10:13<peter1138>erm
10:13<peter1138>But it looks cool
10:17<_dp_>peter1138, nah, setting engine availability flags
10:20<andythenorth>- advise freight weight multiplier
10:21<andythenorth>or chibi everything
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10:28<nielsm>just make it intensely expensive so it's only worth using with 15+ tile length trains?
10:28<andythenorth>how many 15+ tile stations do you build? o_O
10:28<nielsm>(and maybe have a setting flag for the newgrf to disable ultra heavy duty machines)
10:28<nielsm>some multiplayer games may want to do that...
10:28<andythenorth>I have screenshots somewhere of games where I used to build massive stations
10:29<andythenorth>then co-op bullied me into TL 5
10:31<peter1138>Silly.
10:32<peter1138>Strange, getting tons of ICU crashes :(
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10:32<peter1138>When do we get savegame cloud-storage? :p
10:33*andythenorth shouldn't draw pixels with sunglasses on
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10:56<_dp_>freight multiplier? I'd rather see a divider :p
10:56<_dp_>passengers are op even without multiplier
10:57<andythenorth>because payment rates? o_O
10:57<andythenorth>or because they're usually payment for both legs of journey?
10:58<_dp_>both
10:58<_dp_>also weight less
10:58<nielsm>or because passengers are generated in absurd amounts compared to town size?
10:59<_dp_>and that too)
11:02<peter1138>LordAro, nice riding
11:03<LordAro>:)
11:04<peter1138>Typical that I get a minor lurgy this lovely weekend :(
11:04<LordAro>:(
11:04<peter1138>Went out yesterday but had no energy.
11:05<FLHerne>andythenorth: I often see max-length trains for steel/goods in MP games
11:05<LordAro>peter1138: a felt a bit meh friday/saturday, luckily didn't progress at all
11:06<LordAro>https://jguegant.github.io/blogs/tech/meta-crush-saga.html hmmmm
11:06<FLHerne>(those tend to have much more centralised/long-distance/efficient networks than SP, for reasons)
11:06<FLHerne>Not sure people would use Horse in such games, though
11:07<FLHerne>(ftr, the last time I built a 15-tile station was yesterday evening on the Reddit server :P)
11:11<_dp_>someone should do a fast food grf
11:12<_dp_>that increases passengers weight with the amount of industries on the map
11:15<peter1138>Hmm, is there a script that will add roads between towns on start up?
11:18<_dp_>there was something like that somewhere
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11:24<frosch123>there are multiple, i think also pikka wrote one
11:24<frosch123>some are gs, some are ai
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11:36<LordAro>frosch123: is there a particular reason the attributes of CompanyProperties are ordered the way they are? they seem inconsistent
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11:39<peter1138>Probably just the order they were in Company?
11:40<frosch123>original order by cs, then people added stuff where they liked
11:40<frosch123>anyway, it does not look that bad to me
11:40<LordAro>name_2 & name_1 are backwards
11:41<LordAro>and i'd probably put them after name anyway
11:41<LordAro>similar for president_name
11:41<frosch123>in those cases, i would not even trust the comments :p
11:41<frosch123>names are magic, which got changed at least twice
11:41<LordAro>hehe
11:42<LordAro>fair enough
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11:55<andythenorth>40% sprites done for Horse :P
11:56*LordAro notes that INVALID_COMPANY == INVALID_OWNER == COMPANY_SPECTATOR
11:56<LordAro>i guess that makes sense
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12:16<LordAro>frosch123: any particular reason for MemCpyT?
12:16<LordAro>in my perfect world, it wouldn't exist at all - std::copy does everything you need it to
12:16<LordAro>(and you also recommended copy_backward later)
12:17<frosch123>memcpy is for pod, std::copy is for non-pod
12:18<frosch123>i would expect using std::copy in the blitter makes ottd unplayable in non-optimised build
12:18<frosch123>memcpy a big block is different to looping and copying 4 bytes at a time
12:18<LordAro>do they not compile to the same code?
12:19<LordAro>https://stackoverflow.com/q/4707012/995325
12:20<LordAro>which is admittedly using -Ofast
12:23<LordAro>https://godbolt.org/g/QMB7Ko godbolt appears to agree
12:23<frosch123>i would expect std::copy to always copy blocks of size of the structure
12:23<frosch123>while memcpy may do bigger blocks
12:23<frosch123>(without optimisation)
12:24<LordAro>i remain unconvinced :p
12:24<frosch123>https://gcc.godbolt.org/#g:!((g:!((g:!((h:codeEditor,i:(j:1,lang:c%2B%2B,source:%27%23include+%3Calgorithm%3E%0A%23include+%3Ccstring%3E%0A%0Astruct+data%0A%7B%0A++int+x,+y%3B++++%0A%7D%3B%0A%0Avoid+foo(data+*a,+data+*b,+size_t+n)%0A%7B%0A++++memcpy(b,+a,+n)%3B%0A%7D%0A%0Avoid+bar(data+*a,+data+*b,+size_t+n)%0A%7B%0A++std::copy(a,+a+%2B+n,+b)%3B%0A%7D%27),l:%275%27,n:%270%27,o:%27C%2B%2B+source+%231%27,t:%270%27)),k:50,l:%274%27,n:%270%27,o:%27%
12:25<frosch123>27,s:0,t:%270%27),(g:!((h:compiler,i:(compiler:g81,filters:(b:%270%27,binary:%271%27,commentOnly:%270%27,demangle:%270%27,directives:%270%27,execute:%271%27,intel:%271%27,trim:%271%27),lang:c%2B%2B,libs:!(),options:%27-O1%27,source:1),l:%275%27,n:%270%27,o:%27x86-64+gcc+8.1+(Editor+%231,+Compiler+%231)+C%2B%2B%27,t:%270%27)),k:50,l:%274%27,n:%270%27,o:%27%27,s:0,t:%270%27)),l:%272%27,n:%270%27,o:%27%27,t:%270%27)),version:4 <- without
12:25<frosch123>optimisation
12:25<frosch123>oops, long link :p
12:25<LordAro>haha
12:25<frosch123>well, your link, but without "-O1"
12:25<LordAro>true
12:25<frosch123>so, imho blitter also needs to run fast when not optimising
12:27<LordAro>Error: Assertion failed at line 91 of /home/lordaro/dev/openttd/src/tile_map.h: tile < MapSize()
12:27<LordAro>turns out initialising some properties to their "invalid" values didn't go so well
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12:40<LordAro>frosch123: i notice no significant difference if i swap the memcpy call inside MemCpyT with std::copy
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13:19<LordAro>ew, TinyEnumT
13:20<LordAro>that can be immediately wiped out with c++11
13:21<LordAro>frosch123: any idea about the error on 6781? it doesn't seem to make sense, and my compilers don't error
13:23<peter1138>avail_railtypes was removed.
13:23<peter1138>CI is building it rebased to master.
13:23<LordAro>but i rebased to master?
13:23*LordAro tries again
13:24<peter1138>Is your master up to date?
13:24<LordAro>i rebased to origin/master
13:24<LordAro>but apparently that doesn't mean it gets fetched
13:24<peter1138>Is your origin/master up to date? :p
13:24<LordAro>it would seem not
13:46<LordAro>i like how github now can't order the commits properly
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14:02<peter1138>Could you not just set everything to 0?
14:02<peter1138>That's what the memset does, right?
14:03<LordAro>yeah, but they don't seem like the right values
14:03<LordAro>as some of them are "valid", even if they've not been set
14:04<peter1138>It's just awkward because it's gone from a patch to just make it compile without warnings on gcc8, to changing functionality.
14:04<peter1138>Everything creeps :)
14:04<LordAro>hehe
14:04<LordAro>shouldn't be any change in functionality
14:08<peter1138>src/widget_type.h has some strangeness. this->disp_flags = lowered ? SETBITS() : CLRBITS();
14:08<peter1138>this->disp_flags = is not necessary?
14:09<peter1138>Dunno if ternary that ignores value is permitted though.
14:10<LordAro>it's fairly nasty regardless
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14:12<peter1138>Hmm, forums are pretty quiet.,
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14:20<V453000>ded
14:24<peter1138>Oh
14:34<peter1138>Bah, two horses, one slow, one with barely any health :(
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15:28<peter1138>Hmm. Gone quiet here now, I suppose.
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15:32<peter1138>Is 32 cargo types enough?
15:35<nielsm>what's the cost of extending to 256?
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15:39<nielsm>(apart from unwieldy UI)
15:39<peter1138>:-)
15:39<peter1138>Not sure. It's not stored on the map so feasible.
15:39<@Alberth>I believe andy thinks so
15:40<peter1138>I think for the moment I will just replace uint32 -> CargoTypes
15:40<peter1138>(which will be typedef uint32)
15:53<@Alberth>good night
15:53<peter1138>Night
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15:55<V453000>:( Finally a fun thread and TB locks it
15:55<peter1138>That was so last week!
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15:59<peter1138>Speaking of which!"
16:00<V453000>oh.
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16:10<andythenorth>peter1138: I don't see need for more
16:10<andythenorth>32 is a sweet spot
16:10<peter1138>Indeed.
16:10<andythenorth>more, and things like refit menu, cargo menus etc get horrible
16:17<andythenorth>I ran up against the (old) industry limit quite hard, I've never hit the cargo limit
16:17<andythenorth>biggest economy has one slot free http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
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17:02<peter1138>Woo, crashes!
17:05<andythenorth>congrats
17:05<andythenorth>not ICU?
17:05<peter1138>No. That was earlier.
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---Logclosed Mon May 21 00:00:20 2018