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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-05-21

---Logopened Mon May 21 00:00:20 2018
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01:17<Eddi|zuHause>some part of me wants to scream "OH NO!" on that sentence
01:18<@Alberth>if it's a vocal part, it happens :)
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03:12<@Alberth>o/
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03:23<Pikka>o/
03:25<__ln__>are they using them wrong: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdZI4P6WkAAOnVh.jpg
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03:26<@Alberth>stacking trains isn't very simple
03:28<V453000>double layer trains confirmed
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04:12<SpComb>might not be worth engineering trains to be able to drive over other slower trains for overtaking
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04:44<SnoopyBerlin>hello @ all
04:45<@Alberth>o
04:45<@Alberth>O/
04:45<SnoopyBerlin>hello alberth from sewdwn
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05:12<Xaroth>o7
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05:25<peter1138>Hi
05:37<Pikka>o/
05:41<peter1138>Is it home-time yet?
05:42<LordAro>yes!
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>it's a holiday today
05:45<peter1138>Great.
05:46<V453000>:D
07:09<peter1138>Hmm, how do you save a std::bitset? :p
07:12<LordAro>a bit at a time
07:12<peter1138>o_O
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07:24<frosch123>hmm, i guess if the string conversion is too stupid you can go for a combination of >>=, &= and to_ulong
07:24<nielsm>to_ulong or to_ullong seem to be the right thing
07:25<frosch123>i think the point of bitset is to use more than 32 or 64 bits :)
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>BigInt :p
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>but honestly, some sort of arbitrary length array?
07:31<nielsm>that's the thing, std::bitset api doesn't have a way (apart from .to_string) to get the values of all bits at once
07:31<frosch123>please discuss with lordaro, when to use std:: stuff and custom :p
07:31<LordAro>D:
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>what a genious idea it was to use modern features...
07:31<nielsm>unless N <= number of bits in unsigned long long
07:31<frosch123>LordAro: see, all my hopes are on the youth :)
07:32<frosch123>nielsm: std::vector<bool> doesn't have a method either
07:32<nielsm>:(
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>clearly you need to iterate over it and handle each bit individually
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>iterators are a modern feature, after all
07:35<LordAro>https://stackoverflow.com/q/4666450/995325 ?
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>so "use boost"?
07:40<peter1138>Please don't :-)
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>but boost is a modern feature!! :p
07:41<peter1138>Might as well use custom stuff to avoid dependency hell :-)
07:41<LordAro>bad
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08:05<nielsm>hmm random idea, let basesets include a logo file, which then gets rendered on the main menu at the bottom
08:05<nielsm>like the developer + publisher logos in the original
08:05<frosch123>they can just add it to the "D"
08:06<nielsm>sound and music sets can't alter graphics :)
08:07<frosch123>so you want a list of 64 logos at the bottom? for every ai and newgrf?
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>and add a logo for each activated NewGRF set?
08:07<nielsm>yeah no just the basesets
08:07<frosch123>sounds like a well organised win9x desktop
08:08<frosch123>anyway, bananas/preview screenshots first :)
08:14<peter1138>heh
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the news is celebrating the end of railway privatisation in britain. that can't be what actually happened, right?
08:23<LordAro>sort of
08:29<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it was a wedding present
08:30<frosch123>some railway tycoon had no heirs and gave the whole company to harry
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08:56<peter1138>https://i.imgur.com/0WD7KmZ.gif
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09:27<Pikka>bingo bango bongo
09:29<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: one franchise has gone back to nationalised, again
09:29<Sacro>To be fair, most of our railways are nationalised, just not by our own nation
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09:57<peter1138>Heh
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11:31<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: ok, but how is "one franchise faild and had to be bailed out" the same thing as "this is the end of privatisation"?
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11:42*andythenorth assumes TrueBrain has seen this https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisthisthing/comments/8kzx5p/some_kind_of_explosive_lying_on_the_floor_of/
11:44<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: no idea, it's just the East Coast Main line that's back under the Govt
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11:45<Sacro>Most other lines are run by the dutch, german, french
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>just imagine they hadn't dismantled british rail, and they could now make money running trains in other countries?
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>like everyone else does
11:48<LordAro>andythenorth: huh.
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>"I'm not sure how I'd handle a bear in my data center" "you close the door and hope someone else finds it" "That is standard troubleshooting procedure"
11:55<LANJesus>well, there's more than one kind of bear mind you
11:55<LANJesus>depending on how you 'handle' it might result in your employmement termination
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>errmm... not that kind of bear :p
11:57<LANJesus>okay glad that is cleared up. carry on : D
12:00<Xaroth>andythenorth: what the crap o_O
12:02<@Alberth>hi andy, I hacked some BB and pushed, fixing the crash, and doing better randomization / avoiding giving out old goals, close to v1?
12:07<andythenorth>did we not v1 already? o_O
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>v(n+1)?
12:08<andythenorth>we only ever got to RC2 afaict
12:08<andythenorth>definitely v1 then :)
12:10<Pikka>eek
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12:49<Thedarkb1-X40>What's the best way to merge two double track lines into 1 four track line?
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12:55<frosch123>what's there to merge?
12:55<frosch123>merge would imply you have less tracks afterwards
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12:58<nielsm>do you mean like this? (A) http://0x0.st/sedT.png
12:58<nielsm>or like this? (B) http://0x0.st/sedm.png
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13:10<Wolf01>o/
13:11<Wolf01>So what happened these days?
13:11<__ln__>i ate some gelato
13:14<peter1138>Evening.
13:14<LordAro>__ln__: gelato good.
13:15<peter1138>I got some reduced-price in M&S. It'll probably be good but I've not attacked it yet.
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13:18<peter1138>Ooh, we already have a uint64 used for bitmasks :-)
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13:29<Wolf01>o/
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13:33<peter1138>frosch123, my patches ;)
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13:34<Thedarkb1-X40>frosch123, one line gets more traffic than the other.
13:35<Thedarkb1-X40>and I want traffic evenly distributed between the four?
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13:46<Eddi|zuHause>if the traffic was already compressed into one line, merging is going to only reduce throughput?
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13:49<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, let's try something, we call the incoming lines A and B, and the outgoing lines 1 and 2, if A has naturally more traffic than B, i would have A go into both 1 and 2, with 1 being preferred by the pathfinder, and B going only into 1, but with priority. so trains from A go into 1 when no train comes from B, but overflow into 2 when a train is coming from B
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's not exactly going to be "even"
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>the other option is, you build a "splitter" from A into 1 and 2, that evenly distributes, and then merge B into 1 and 2 at a later point
13:54<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Junctionary_-_Mergers
14:01<peter1138>Is this something that programmable signals helps with?
14:02<nielsm>yeah something that flips between two output paths every time a train passes
14:03<@Alberth>already solved by coop
14:03<peter1138>"Solved"
14:03<peter1138>It's ugly and uses track for logic.
14:04<nielsm>personally I don't consider "logic trains" a good solution
14:04<nielsm>it's more just a curiosity
14:04<@Alberth>it's a transport tycoon game, and not a train signal simulation
14:04<peter1138>Rubbish! It's a model railway simulator!
14:05<nielsm>part of running an efficient transportation company is setting good rules for dispatchers!
14:05<@Alberth>people get confused by plain block signals already :)
14:06<peter1138>Yeah, we should've taken them out.
14:06<nielsm>train fever was right to only include path signals
14:06<LANJesus>you're all wrong. it's a sandbox with which i use to reach zen
14:06<LANJesus>hmm i accidentally a grammar. oh well
14:19<andythenorth>what was the original problem? :P
14:19<Wolf01><peter1138> Is this something that programmable signals helps with? <- I think not, but timetables might help
14:19<Wolf01>Too bad timetables are a pita to setup
14:19<andythenorth>conditional orders?
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>merging 2 lines into 4, or something
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14:22<andythenorth>I build good junctions http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7625/junction.png
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>best junction ever
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>trains drive on the wrong side
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>signals are backwards
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>tight curves
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>depot in the middle
14:28<peter1138>"Spend just £0.02 more to qualify for free delivery on this order"
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>i see you follow the coop rules meticulously
14:28<peter1138>Hmm!
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: and anything you could add to your order costs more than the shipping you save?
14:28<peter1138>Actually no.
14:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: but at least it's TL5!
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and the company colour isn't even orange!
14:30<andythenorth>oops
14:31<andythenorth>check the PBS signal by the bridge as well
14:31<andythenorth>breaks all rules
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>need signals on bridges!
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14:47<V453000>._.
14:54<V453000>oh yeah that's cause we are using a coop grf pack newgrf
14:55<V453000>nvm
14:59<Wolf01>Shit, derailed :(
15:08<Thedarkb1-X40>Programmable signals would be nice.
15:09<Thedarkb1-X40>My railway line is more or less quad track all the way now.
15:11<V453000>what would you need that for?
15:12<Thedarkb1-X40>Load balancing
15:13<V453000>just make proper mergers with enough choices :)
15:14<V453000>if you are making any kind of load balancing merger anyway with programmable signals or train logic, that means you already have an all to all merger anyway.You don't even need the logic at that point.
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15:23<Thedarkb1-X40>Programmable train orders would be cool.
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15:25<Thedarkb1-X40>and signals that will let certain train groups through but not others.
15:27<Thedarkb1-X40>I hate it when a bunch of trains dependent on the arrival of another cargo clog the station.
15:29<V453000>you can do all of those things actually
15:30<Thedarkb1-X40>Oh, cool.
15:31<Thedarkb1-X40>Can I change the orders of an entire group in one go?
15:31<Thedarkb1-X40>V453000, How?
15:32<V453000>if you have them as shared orders, yes, otherwise not so easy
15:33<V453000>you can change train orders by conditional orders. If you want a train to go through a waypoint and evaluate where it wants to go, you need to use the MEOW/PURR trick available with NUTS train set, though.
15:33<V453000>If your station is clogging because some trains didn't deliver for example oil and goods trains pile up, you can fix that with an overflow easily.
15:33<Thedarkb1-X40>How do I set up shared orders?
15:34<Thedarkb1-X40>Is separate stations the best way of dealing with that though?
15:34<V453000>when cloning trains or setting orders, you ctrl+click the train you want to share orders with
15:34<nielsm>ctrl+click another vehicle that has the orders you want, with "go to" button for orders for the first vehicle
15:34<nielsm>but yeah cloning while holding ctrl is the easiest
15:35<Thedarkb1-X40>I wish that was the default......
15:35<Thedarkb1-X40>I have 24 orders to change.
15:35<V453000>that would probably be quite confusing for people
15:35<V453000>also you can still create the link just by changing the orders of already existing trains, you'll just have to do it for each of them manually
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15:45<Thedarkb1-X40>bleh implicit orders.
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16:22<Eddi|zuHause>you can set nonstop as default, and never deal with implicit orders
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16:25<supermop_work>+1 to eddi
16:25<supermop_work>implicit orders are worthless
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>they're alright, but they don't play well with trains randomly going to depot
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>and if you're bothering with depot orders, might as well just do all the order stuff anyway
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16:33<Thedarkb1-X40>How do I get rid of the ones I have.
16:33<Thedarkb1-X40>and don't say delete them all by hand.
16:33<nielsm>implicit orders?
16:34<nielsm>they disappear automatically
16:34<Thedarkb1-X40>Ah, I thought that.
16:35<nielsm>if order 1 is "stop at fenfingville" and order 2 is "stop at barlingburg", and there is an implicit "stop at tulsing" between, if the train goes from 1 to 2 without hitting tulsing that order disappears
16:37<nielsm>implicit orders happen because they're a requirement for the cargodist feature to work, every stop has to be mapped out for a functioning cargo flow graph to be built
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16:37<nielsm>maybe there could be an option to "hide implicit orders", with "never", "if all cargodist options are disabled", "always", as possible settings
16:56<andythenorth>bye
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17:23<Wolf01>'night
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18:07<peter1138>No.
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18:25<Pikka>why not?
18:32<LordAro>but what if?
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18:40<peter1138>So there's now a patch somewhere for 64 cargo types ;p
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19:56<pjpe> what does foobar's tram tracks do over vanilla tram tracks?
19:56<pjpe>didn't see much of a difference trying it out, and don't know if i picked it up a decade ago when things were different or not
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---Logclosed Tue May 22 00:00:21 2018