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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-05-22

---Logopened Tue May 22 00:00:21 2018
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00:55<Eddi|zuHause>pjpe: if the tram track grf is more than a year old, it's visual only, it doesn't "do" anything different. and any non-visual stuff only works in the "NRT" branch, that hasn't been merged yet as fas as i am informed
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03:11<peter1138>andythenorth, you'll like this one... https://github.com/PeterN/OpenTTD/commit/dc7cfdd4673e6962a1ae1a57d1ef32763d2051c1
03:15<andythenorth>lawks
03:15<andythenorth>well that wrecks FIRS :o
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03:18<peter1138>:p
03:18<peter1138>You'll never know when to stop!
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03:30<Eddi|zuHause>for (CargoID i = 0; i < num_cargo; i++) { <-- does that break if num_cargo is changed mid-game?
03:31<Eddi|zuHause>ah no, it's in saveload code
03:33<andythenorth>well FIRS Extreme just got 'interesting'
03:34<andythenorth>time to start FIRS v4
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03:37<Eddi|zuHause>but with 64 cargos you now need 128 industries (one producer and one consumer each) :p
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>+
03:41<Eddi|zuHause>how typical... sometimes the keyboad slips away from me, and when i try to grab it, i press + and enter on numpad
03:46<andythenorth>*lots* of cargos is kind of counter for FIRS Extreme
03:46<andythenorth>one of the key points of Extreme seems to be 'everything goes everywhere'
03:46<andythenorth>the graph for some cargos have a lot of nodes
03:46<andythenorth>more cargos => fewer nodes per cargo
03:50<V453000>oh god
03:51<andythenorth>V453000: NEW INDUSTRY SET
03:51<andythenorth>omg, FIRSYETI
03:51<andythenorth>make 50% each
03:51<andythenorth>unleash madness
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03:53<V453000>:D
03:53<Eddi|zuHause>you could just try to load both FIRS and YETI at the same time :p
03:53<V453000>I'm waiting for the implementation :?
03:53<V453000>:>
03:57<andythenorth>not even sure I can think of 64 cargos
03:58<andythenorth>'big yeti'
03:58<andythenorth>'small yeti'
03:58<andythenorth>etc
04:01<andythenorth>68 cargos here :P http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/cargos.html
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04:01<V453000>the world is lost
04:02<V453000>meanwhile I'm making an excessively complicated rendering for treinz :D
04:02<Arveen>TRAINZ, MEEP MEEP !!!
04:10<peter1138>See, there's absolutely no reason to add that commit ;p
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04:12<andythenorth>there's absolutely no reason to recreate a game from 1994 :P
04:12<andythenorth>peter1138: GarryG will make use of 64
04:14<peter1138>Wait, 68 cargo types? Shit.
04:15<peter1138>Is there a uint128_t? :p
04:15<andythenorth>don't do it :P
04:15<andythenorth>I *hate* drawing cargo icons
04:15<peter1138>:-)
04:16<peter1138>Take generic pile of minerals -> recolour -> done.
04:16<andythenorth>that works
04:16<V453000>yeah cargo icons are fucking tough
04:16<V453000>what is that, 8x8px max?
04:16<andythenorth>not so much for 'vehicle parts'
04:16<peter1138>V453000, 4x zoom!
04:16<peter1138>32x32, it's like an icon.
04:16<peter1138>Except nobody uses 4x gui zoom. Except andythenorth.
04:16<andythenorth>my favourite http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/cargos.html#explosives
04:16<andythenorth>it's animated :P
04:17<andythenorth>but not for me, because full animation is broken
04:17<peter1138>It's not broken.
04:17<andythenorth>oops
04:17<andythenorth>my computer is broken for full animation
04:17<andythenorth>^ more accurate
04:17<V453000>gui zoom is probably only for wtf-high-dpi displays, where it perceptively is as small as 8x8 on a normal display :P
04:17<andythenorth>2x GUI zoom is mandatory :P
04:17<peter1138>32bpp-optimized doesn't support it, but there are 32bpp blitters that support animation.
04:18<andythenorth>it's a trade off
04:18<andythenorth>I can have animation, or frame rate
04:18<peter1138>32bpp-sse4-anim is the one to use on a relatively not-ancient PC.
04:19<peter1138>Hmm, we only auto-switch to 32bpp-anim.
04:19<peter1138>Perhaps we should try 32bpp-sse4-anim first.
04:19*andythenorth wonders how to set blitter
04:19<andythenorth>wiki says "-b32bpp-sse4-anim"
04:20<andythenorth>but that doesn't work
04:20<peter1138>-b 32bpp-sse4-anim
04:20<V453000>32bpp-sse4-anim seems to work for me
04:20<peter1138>If it's a core2duo it won't work.
04:20<peter1138>32bpp-anim should though.
04:22<andythenorth>well I set sse4
04:22<andythenorth>but still failing
04:23<andythenorth>this JGR patch works better for me, but frosch said I was confused https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6469
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04:29<peter1138>What does it look like? :P
04:29<andythenorth>looks fine, but frame rate is lower
04:29<andythenorth>and FFWD is very sluggish/jerky
04:30<peter1138>Oh. THought you said full animation is broken?
04:30<andythenorth>no my computer is broken for full animation
04:30<peter1138>Okay, but how so?
04:30<peter1138>Is it just that it is slower?
04:30<andythenorth>yes
04:31<peter1138>Er...
04:31<peter1138>You know that's totally normal?
04:31<andythenorth>it changed in hardware or software 4-5 years ago
04:31<andythenorth>I've been given various explanations
04:32<andythenorth>maybe Apple dropped legacy quickdraw APIs
04:32<andythenorth>or something changed in CPU bandwidth
04:32<peter1138>8bpp was faster because openttd didn't have to deal with it.
04:33<peter1138>But animation with 32bpp is always slower.
04:33<andythenorth>I was told to use 32bpp because it's faster
04:33<andythenorth>it's a classic FUD situation :)
04:34<peter1138>Well
04:34<peter1138>I'm probably wrong ;-)
04:34<peter1138>I remember running OpenTTD in XGA mode. That was SUPERFAST.
04:34<peter1138>Only issue is you needed to run the game as root. Hah
04:34<peter1138>That actually switched X11 to 8bpp mode.
04:34<peter1138>That was in the days I ran 800x600 on a CRT though.
04:35<peter1138>I'm hopeful that michi_cc's OpenGL patch can be revived (using modern OpenGL where feasible) as this should allow palette animation to be done by the GPU.
04:36<andythenorth>the SSE2 patch from JGR is about 10% faster
04:36<andythenorth>judged by timing trains going round in a circle :P
04:38<peter1138>Ok. So we should add it. It's also usable for older CPUs.
04:38<peter1138>We should also ditch the -simple blitters, probably.
04:38<peter1138>Hmm, I don't think my RGB company colours patch works with these SSE blitters though.
04:39<peter1138>Hmm, actually why wouldn't it? It's just a palette. I've forgotten how it works :-)
04:40<LordAro>peter1138: XGA mode?
04:40<V453000>:)
04:41<peter1138>May have been DGA.
04:42<LordAro>peter1138: DGA mode?
04:42<LordAro>:p
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05:10<peter1138>LordAro, direct graphics access. It literally let you write directly to the video frame buffer.
05:10<peter1138>Hence root.
05:11<peter1138>It's no longer supported since modern graphics cards don't expose that stuff any more, due to the memory sizes involved.
05:11<LordAro>ah right
05:12<peter1138>It switched X11 to 8bpp, so palette animation was actual palette animation.
05:12<peter1138>So zero performance cost.
05:13<peter1138>"The graphics component of XFree86-DGA is not supported because it requires a CPU mapping of framebuffer memory. As graphics cards ship with increasing quantities of video memory, the NVIDIA X driver has had to switch to a more dynamic memory mapping scheme that is incompatible with DGA. Furthermore, DGA does not cooperate with other graphics rendering libraries such as Xlib and OpenGL because it
05:13<peter1138>accesses GPU resources directly."
05:13<peter1138>Progress! ;)
05:14<andythenorth>progress :P
05:18<peter1138>Speaking of progress... I keep buying clothes in medium... This is odd.
05:19<andythenorth>cyclismo
05:19<peter1138>One of my cycling tops is XXXL. It's rather long and loose now. Just about okay for MTBing, but I should probably ditch it.
05:21<V453000>is that nvidia 10xx series or nvidia titan X series drivers?
05:21<peter1138>Err?
05:22<V453000>nvidia X driver
05:22<peter1138>Wayyy before them.
05:22<V453000>oh :)
05:22<V453000>was wondering
05:22<peter1138>But isn't the driver the same for them?
05:22<V453000>nope
05:23<V453000>at least on their driver site they are different, and there were no titan x drivers for a while which would be compatible with linux
05:23<peter1138>I still have a 670 :(
05:23<peter1138>It's a bit shit for VR but passable.
05:25<V453000>well a gpu is my main rendering thing so... :)
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06:34<andythenorth>wonder if an eGPU can drive my laptop screen :P
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07:57<peter1138>A what now?
07:59<andythenorth>GPU in a box, with thunderbolt cables
07:59<peter1138>O
07:59<peter1138>Maybe.
07:59<peter1138>Let's look at issues.
07:59<peter1138>Okay, I looked.
07:59<andythenorth>let's
08:00<peter1138>#6677 Well now.
08:01<peter1138>#986 ... kinda old.
08:14<__ln__>i think i have a solution for #4449, but dunno about peter's idea of a tristate toggle.
08:19<andythenorth>I wanted to close 6677 but TB said no, it's a valid bug
08:19<peter1138>Does anyone use actual-fullscreen these days?
08:19<andythenorth>not me
08:20<andythenorth>sample size: 1; results 100% no-one
08:20<andythenorth>valid
08:23<peter1138>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=83282
08:24<andythenorth>child #1 uses fullscreen
08:24<andythenorth>mostly because it hides the endless popups about google products trying to update themselves
08:25<peter1138>o_O
08:25<andythenorth>he has a locked down account with limited network access
08:25<peter1138>I use windowed mode, cos multiple screens.
08:25<andythenorth>which triggers constant warnings about google updaters that I can't suppress
08:25<andythenorth>I hate modern computing :|
08:25<__ln__>despite darkvater's recent reappearance, is it time to re-evaluate the Won't implement of #69?
08:26<peter1138>Hurr hurr hurr you said 69
08:26<__ln__>no pun intended
08:26<peter1138>But no. We won't.
08:27<andythenorth>did I just stray into a Beavis & Butthead episode :o
08:28<__ln__>peter1138: you won't re-evaluate or you won't implement?
08:28<peter1138>Either.
08:29<peter1138>Unless it was different in original TTD.
08:29*andythenorth evaluates sitting outside in the sun
08:29<andythenorth>basically fine
08:30<peter1138>Do it.
08:30<peter1138>Then you don't have to consider 64 cargo types.
08:30<peter1138>https://playdos.games/game/play-transport-tycoon-deluxe-online/play/
08:30<peter1138>Yay
08:31<andythenorth>laptops work outside :P
08:31<peter1138>Yup, only one earring in TTD.
08:33<__ln__>That's right. Well, that's one way to be different.
08:34<V453000>dam
08:34<__ln__>Also I noticed the face generation algorithm doesn't match requirements of the 2010s. There are only caucasian and african american faces.
08:35<peter1138>Who even bothers to look at the face? :S
08:38<andythenorth>not me
08:39<andythenorth>I am too busy looking at trains
08:39<andythenorth>I thought there was a ticket about the face diversity somewhere
08:39<peter1138>Thing is, it is the way it is because these are graphics in the original base set.
08:40<peter1138>And it's so inconsequential to gameplay, there's no need to change it.
08:40<andythenorth>pixel-art for specific races is a potential minefield
08:40<andythenorth>I wouldn't touch it :P
08:40<peter1138>Even the "advanced" editor is pointless.
08:40<V453000>I actually wanted to make a YETI faces replacement
08:41<V453000>but yeah I wanted to make many things
08:41<peter1138>It's not like you've got a set of photographs and you can just add more, or edit the existing ones.
08:41<peter1138>It's built up out of parts like an identifit.
08:41<andythenorth>I just try to make Burt Reynolds
08:41<peter1138>Heh
08:41<andythenorth>it's basically that kids game 'Guess Who' or so
08:41<andythenorth>which has been updated for diversity
08:41<andythenorth>but eh, they have resources to do that
08:48<V453000>doesn't ttd have all them races?
08:48<V453000>ish?
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08:49<andythenorth>it has 'european' and 'african'
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08:50<andythenorth>so for example, no east asian, no south asian
08:50<andythenorth>no native american, inuits etc
08:51<andythenorth>I can't see us fixing that, it's work, and doing it wrong is stupid and offensive
08:52<V453000>I find it irrelevant
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08:57<andythenorth>means, e.g. my kids can't make a face that looks like them
08:57<andythenorth>I'm not sure they care right now
08:58<__ln__>there are also only two genders to choose from in the dialog
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08:58<andythenorth>just swap it all to lego-people style :P
08:58<__ln__>is that offensive towards lego-people?
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08:59<__ln__>or bjarni
08:59<andythenorth>hmm chin 1 has some kind of bug
08:59<andythenorth>in 'male, european'
09:00<peter1138>TTD or OGFX?
09:01<andythenorth>TTD
09:01<andythenorth>it's out of place I think
09:01<andythenorth>it's also the same as the female chin
09:01<andythenorth>that might be intended
09:01<peter1138>Quick, let's pull the game. Literally unplayable.
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09:01<FLHerne>Can the face sprites be replaced by NewGRF?
09:01<FLHerne>I don't suppose the labels can
09:02<peter1138>Yes, any sprite can be replaced.
09:02<FLHerne>Hm
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>there is a way for NewGRF to change original TTD strings, but they have to be whitelisted and mapped to OTTD strings
09:03<FLHerne>I was thinking you could do it with a static newgrf so every player can have their own preferred face
09:03<FLHerne>But everyone else would then see it differently
09:03<FLHerne>(if anyone looked at them at all, ever....)
09:03<peter1138>static newgrfs are a pain anyway.
09:04<peter1138>As evidenced by there not being a UI for it.
09:04<peter1138>FLHerne, let's just add webcam support :p
09:04<andythenorth>gravatar :P
09:05<peter1138>Heh
09:05<andythenorth>let's not accidentally add chat roulette to ottd
09:06<__ln__>let's add mandatory facebook login, which also solves the face issue.
09:07<peter1138>GOOD IDEA
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: and who pays the lawyer for the GDPR-related stuff?
09:16<__ln__>the product manager
09:21*andythenorth trying to draw happy train https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_365#/media/File:365537_B_Stevenage.JPG
09:21<andythenorth>maybe an advanced face maker for that?
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09:43<Eddi|zuHause>what zoomlevel would that be?
09:49<andythenorth>well not 1x :P
09:49<andythenorth>which is what I'm drawing for :P
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10:09<FLHerne>andythenorth: Ooh, those are the first trains I can remember travelling on
10:10<FLHerne>I was always excited to see if my train was going to have a smile
10:10<FLHerne>(they hadn't retrofitted them all yet)
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11:08<peter1138>Oh... waterways NRT :p
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11:08<peter1138>Hi
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11:10<frosch123>moi
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13:01<andythenorth>41% Iron Horse
13:01<andythenorth>just 115 trains left to draw :P
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13:11<Wolf01>o/
13:14<andythenorth>hi Wolf01
13:14<andythenorth>did anyone merge NRT yet? o_O
13:14<andythenorth>I wasn't looking
13:15<Wolf01>Dunno, I'm busy with trains
13:18<LordAro>andythenorth: needs a PR before it can be merged :p
13:20<andythenorth>o_O
13:20<andythenorth>it needs peter1138 to merge Wolf01's gist to his fork :P
13:20<andythenorth>then I can make a PR for OpenTTD repo :P
13:21<andythenorth>or i could make a fork :P
13:22<nielsm>making a fork with the changes in on github is def. the first step
13:23<Wolf01>Or rebase the already forked one
13:23<nielsm>but with the current pace of merging PRs don't expect it to happen within this year? :(
13:23<LordAro>justdoit.gif
13:24<Wolf01>nielsm: we have been working on it for about 2 years, one more won't be a problem
13:32<Wolf01>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=83275 heh, the same approach I wanted to use for my new daylength
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13:38<Wolf01>andythenorth: I've seen the leak of the new bugatti... It doesn't convince me
13:41<andythenorth>none of the big cars convince me :)
13:41<andythenorth>I guess I'm not target audience
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13:42<Wolf01>I'm the right target audience for every big technic
13:42<peter1138>Hi
13:43<andythenorth>Eurobricks Chiron thread: "Omg, I am little bit dissapointed somehow."
13:43<andythenorth>expected
13:44<Wolf01>But I got a burn with the porsche, I wait EB to destroy it before thinking about buying
13:44<Wolf01>Lol, the same reaction I had on the group where I found the picture
13:44<peter1138>Right, NRT.
13:47<andythenorth>Wolf01: https://imgur.com/a/nmchpsS ?
13:47<andythenorth>"blah blah car"
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13:52<peter1138>Oh, I forgot I already wrote the patch to increase NRT to 64 road types.
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13:59<andythenorth>:P
14:11<peter1138>Ah yes, that rebase
14:12<andythenorth>one big patch :P
14:12<andythenorth>TB said it's fine :P
14:13<peter1138>It's merging the images which is a pain.
14:13<peter1138>That's why I asked if maybe we should just leave them separate :p
14:14<peter1138>Separate file I mean.
14:14<andythenorth>not all in openttdgui.png?
14:14<peter1138>Yeah, merging images sucks
14:14<andythenorth>I can do it
14:14<andythenorth>it's vanilla work for me
14:14<peter1138>Well
14:14<andythenorth>I'd have to fork your fork though
14:15<peter1138>My issue last time I tried was that rebase doesn't leave me with both parts, unlike with text changes.
14:15<andythenorth>yeah I have to make foo.png.orig or whatever
14:15<andythenorth>then manually reconcile
14:15<peter1138>But I have added your gist
14:17<andythenorth>meh, I can't figure out how to fork the fork
14:17<peter1138>:-)
14:17<peter1138>I'm rebasing right now at the moment so it'd be pointless
14:17<andythenorth>github has 'where shall we fork this to?' and then tells me I already have forks
14:18<andythenorth>i might just fix the pngs when you've rebased, and paste them somewhere :P
14:22<peter1138>I've fixed them
14:23<peter1138>Not hard.
14:26<andythenorth>:)
14:28<peter1138>Rebuilding nrt-64 ;)
14:30<peter1138>https://github.com/PeterN/OpenTTD/commits/nrt-block-64-rail/road/tram-types
14:30<peter1138>;p
14:30<peter1138>Just realised that / in branches are best not used like that :p
14:31<peter1138>Hmm, I think the nrt rebase lost the savegame update, oops.
14:31<peter1138>Don't use what I pushed :p
14:35<andythenorth>:)
14:37<peter1138>kk
14:37<Wolf01><andythenorth> "blah blah car" <- yeah, only shape, I'll wait to see the mechanic
14:38<peter1138>Didn't bother bumping the savegame for the 64-roadtypes version.
14:38<peter1138>If we ever had concensus on "we should increase that limit" then it would make sense to do it before NRT, so NRT doesn't have a pointless change.
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14:39<Wolf01>We didn't bother to bump it even for 1.7
14:40<peter1138>Well if nothing changed then it's not strictly necessary
14:40<andythenorth>just ship 64 :P
14:40<andythenorth>it's "enough"
14:41<Wolf01>It changed that trunk saves were not converted the right way then :P
14:41<peter1138>Eh, I mean increase from 16 to 64.
14:41<peter1138>Oh I misunderstood you wolf.
14:42<peter1138>andythenorth, i would never condone going above 64 ;)
14:42<peter1138>Someone would want to, right? :S
14:42<Wolf01>If one asks for more than 64 roadtypes, a ban is mandatory
14:44<andythenorth>it's enough
14:45<V453000>well, before I could make the rendering of my new train actually work I got a deadline at work :D
14:45<V453000>G_G
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14:45<V453000>:D
14:45<andythenorth>:o
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14:45<Wolf01>New gui tileset?
14:46<Wolf01>Or are you going out of alpha and you must finish all the graphics in hd?
14:50<Wolf01>BTW, I like the glowing effect of the new ui
14:50<V453000>thanks :) Albert would be happy to hear that
14:50<V453000>Wolf01: basically we want MANY things, but there is ~TIME :D
14:56<peter1138>Are they new road type labels?
14:57<Thedarkb-X40>Do you people play with 90° turns on or off?
14:58<peter1138>Off for trains.
14:58<Wolf01>Me too
14:59<andythenorth>I allow 90º
14:59<andythenorth>I used to not, for realism
15:00<andythenorth>but then...**** that
15:00<Wolf01>I don't because they look stupid
15:00<peter1138>I dislike the way it lets trains misuse X crossings :p
15:00<andythenorth>I decided it's just a game ;p
15:01<V453000>as peter1138 said
15:01<V453000>the shit they do in X crossings is awful
15:01<Wolf01>Also, speaking of trains, I have a yard to scramble
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15:37<peter1138>Hmm
15:40<LordAro>mmH
15:57<Wolf01>Ok, finished this shunting session, it was nice
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17:00<Wolf01>'night
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17:14<Thedarkb1>I hate how the x train is lost thing works.
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17:41<V453000>you hate a lot of things don't you :)
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18:49<Thedarkb-X40>What year do oil rigs start appearing/
18:49<Thedarkb-X40>I know it's in the 70s/80s, but like, when exactly?
18:55<Thedarkb-X40>V453000, I'm an irritable little fuck. :P
18:56<Supercheese>https://wiki.openttd.org/Oil_Rig
18:56<Supercheese>1960
18:56<Thedarkb-X40>Hm
18:57<Thedarkb-X40>FIRS might be postponing them or something??
18:59<Thedarkb-X40>Nah, I just have 4 on the map that I hadn't seen yet
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19:04<Supercheese>oh FIRS
19:04<Supercheese>it might be different
19:05<Supercheese>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/industries/oil_rig.py
19:05<Supercheese>intro_year=1967
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---Logclosed Wed May 23 00:00:23 2018