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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-05-23

---Logopened Wed May 23 00:00:23 2018
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01:58<andythenorth>o/
02:13<peter1138>Yes you
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02:15<peter1138>And him
02:25<andythenorth>such PRs
02:26<peter1138>Ah yes, let's look.
02:27<peter1138>I did request that one ;)
02:27<peter1138>18 files!
02:27<peter1138>Oh yeah, projects :S
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02:59<andythenorth>Pikka: such sprites? o_O
02:59<Pikka>very?
03:00<Pikka>which?
03:00<andythenorth>UKRS 9
03:00<andythenorth>is it done? o_O
03:01<Pikka>partially?
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03:01<Pikka>11 locos done-ish?
03:06<andythenorth>which one is the best?
03:06<andythenorth>o_O
03:10<Pikka>ummmm
03:10<Pikka>must be the 37, which I haven't done yet
03:10<andythenorth>I have to draw three 37s
03:11<Pikka>do people like the running sounds in UKRS2, or are they just annoying?
03:11<andythenorth>can't remember :)
03:11<andythenorth>do a poll
03:12<Pikka>I'm not sure if I like them, or if they're just annoying.
03:13<andythenorth>I'd leave them out
03:14<andythenorth>but I tend to mute sounds anyway
03:14<andythenorth>due to the crossing bells problem
03:18<andythenorth>should I industry sounds in FIRS?
03:21<Pikka>only if they're subtle and constant-ish.
03:22<Pikka>the default TTD industry sounds are almost worse than the crossing bells
03:22<andythenorth>the sawmill is the other reason I mute sounds :P
03:22<andythenorth>and then what do industries really sound like anyway?
03:23<Pikka>I remember all the complaints I got about random explosion sounds from quarries :D
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03:34<V453000>:DDD
03:35<V453000>sounds in UKRS2 felt quite weird to me Pikka, but that might be just because the rest of the game is mostly silent
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03:48<andythenorth>so 64 cargos then
03:49<andythenorth>Pikka: ^ multiple regearing cargos? o_O
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04:15<peter1138>64 cargos are impossible!
04:16<andythenorth>128 cargos!
04:19<peter1138>;(
04:19<peter1138>uint128 yes.
04:19<peter1138>To go beyond 64 I need to figure out how to save that bitsit type.
04:19<peter1138>bitset
04:21<LordAro>__uint128_t
04:27<peter1138>As it is, 64 types is probably shitty on 32 bit computers.
04:28<andythenorth>'version 2'
04:28<andythenorth>'we dropped 32 bit'
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04:31<peter1138>:-)
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04:42<peter1138>TrueBrain, why can't DorpsGek_GH chat here? It's not particularly spammy.
04:42<LordAro>^
04:43<peter1138>Maybe it was when it was all being set up but it's died down a bit now.
05:05<peter1138>Hmm, although it hasn't twigged yet.
05:18<peter1138>Still.
05:19<peter1138>andythenorth, so...
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05:23<andythenorth>o_O
05:23<peter1138>O_o what?
05:24<LordAro>0_0
05:40<peter1138>Is it broken?
05:42<andythenorth>we need notifications in the channel :P
05:43<andythenorth>also I have too many openttd shells :P
05:43<peter1138>I mean, the notice channel didn't get a notification either.
05:43<andythenorth>testing it now
05:43<andythenorth>oh hang on, that sse4 blitter is set in my config :P
05:44*andythenorth tries again
05:46<peter1138>It'll be no different I bet ;p
05:46<andythenorth>I think frosch tried to explain to me that the speedup I saw was due to the likely/unlikely patch
05:47<peter1138>That affects pipelining I guess.
05:48<LordAro>that's a railtype, right?
05:48<peter1138>Not yet, we don't have enough types.
05:48<LordAro>:p
05:50<andythenorth>nope SSE is roughly twice as fast as 1.8.0-RC1 for a simple test
05:50<andythenorth>this is in FFW
05:51<andythenorth>trains going round a loop take 11s in 1.8.0-RC1 on FFWD, full animation
05:51<andythenorth>5s in latest trunk
05:51<peter1138>\/
05:51<peter1138>Oh, my head fell off.
05:52<andythenorth>shock
05:52<peter1138> o
05:52<peter1138>Ah, it's over there.
05:52<LordAro>nice
05:58<andythenorth>so in a bigger game, full animation is still noticeably slower
05:58<andythenorth>but it's markedly better
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06:01<peter1138>Don't worry, we'll slow it all down again with 64 railtypes.
06:01<andythenorth>awesome
06:07<peter1138>32768x32768 map?
06:07<peter1138>That's an extra 2GB!
06:09<andythenorth>yuck
06:09<peter1138>Just for railtypes!
06:10<peter1138>https://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/3d/
06:10<peter1138>Let's resurrect that.
06:11<peter1138>It's almost brilliant.
06:11<andythenorth>lol
06:11<andythenorth>etc
06:11<andythenorth>n map layers?
06:11<andythenorth>and offsets into them?
06:11<V453000>I remember seeing that video :)
06:11<andythenorth>or one giant wrap around?
06:12<peter1138>Don't know how it works.
06:12<__ln__>wat, there's actually code for underground rails
06:12<peter1138>r11060. Kinda old.
06:12<andythenorth>hmm
06:12<andythenorth>eh
06:12<peter1138>It is at least post-c++.
06:12<andythenorth>we could do 3D with the current map no?
06:12<peter1138>That is.
06:13<andythenorth>slice a 512x512 into 4 layers of 256x256
06:13<peter1138>I'm not sure how it extends the map.
06:13<andythenorth>and use offsets
06:13<peter1138>Oh,well, not really :S
06:13<andythenorth>'simples'
06:13<peter1138>:-)
06:13<andythenorth>"it's just a drawing problem"
06:13<peter1138>BUT I CAN'T BUILD THIS SPAGHETTI JUNCTION
06:13<andythenorth>oh you can't connect between layers in my plan :)
06:14<andythenorth>everything is planar
06:14<peter1138>Haha
06:14<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere-world
06:14<andythenorth>actually it was flatland I wanted, not poincare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland
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06:15<peter1138>Hmm, TileIndex becomes 64 bit with this patch. So maybe you aren't far off :p
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>i was thinking maybe 1 underground layer and one above ground layer, that follow the landscaping, and the rest is still done by ordinary wormhole tunnels?
06:42<peter1138>Limitation disturbs me very sprites.
06:44<Sacro>Goes throw out limitation?
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06:49<Eddi|zuHause>somebody set up us the bomb
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07:03<andythenorth>90º tunnels
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07:05<__ln__>andythenorth: surely you mean °, not º
07:05<andythenorth>yes
07:05<andythenorth>I just haven't bothered to learn the key combo for deg
07:05<andythenorth>and someone here always corrects it :P
07:06<__ln__>what a great service
07:07<__ln__>do you regularly write text in spanish, or why do you have º in the first place?
07:09<V453000>LOL
07:12<peter1138>Mac.
07:13<peter1138>andythenorth, yeah, that thread is why I dug up SmatZ's stuff.
07:13<andythenorth>just do 90 deg with a new building tool :P
07:14<peter1138>acs121 is definitely hyping up the NEW MAP ARRAY
07:14<andythenorth>oh, we'd need both start and end tiles?
07:14<andythenorth>acs121 is a remarkable source of nearly-facts
07:14<andythenorth>or as I call them, 'wrongs'
07:48<V453000>rekt
08:36<andythenorth>such Pikka
08:36<andythenorth>should I do a GWR railcar with the silly slopes?
08:36<andythenorth>or make a fake flat face one?
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08:44<V453000>cheese or death
08:46<peter1138>FUCK SAKE
08:46<peter1138>Made a mug of tea, burnt mouth :(
08:50<andythenorth>oops
08:50*andythenorth killed a fly
08:50<peter1138>Was it by swallowing?
08:51<andythenorth>nope
08:51<andythenorth>V453000: cheese train https://i1.wp.com/www.p4newstreet.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/dapol-railcar-fin-2.jpg?resize=800%2C417
08:51<V453000>I agree, iz train
09:01<andythenorth>don't want to draw bloody slopes :)
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09:03<peter1138>Draw vehicles ON slopes!
09:03<V453000>heh
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09:06<andythenorth>urgh
09:06*andythenorth having war with flies
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09:08<andythenorth>@seen supermop
09:08<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: supermop was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 1 day, 8 hours, 45 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <supermop> yo
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09:28<Pikka>the fancy noses are fancy though
09:29<Pikka>such bananarama
09:30<andythenorth>I'm doing this one https://www.derbysulzers.com/awshellsideview.jpg
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09:30<andythenorth>Horse add on can do a banana
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09:34<@Alberth>o/
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11:28<andythenorth>train matches field http://www.railpictures.net/photo/658805/
11:30<@Alberth>nice :)
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12:24<peter1138>Well now...
12:26<peter1138>What else I have patches for...
12:28<andythenorth>livery UI
12:28<peter1138>Ah yes.
12:28<andythenorth>and Alberth is here, so the window might get fixed
12:29<@Alberth>oh dear :)
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12:30<nielsm>hmm should I revive/update this patch? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=82642
12:30<nielsm>never really got any feedback on it at all
12:31<andythenorth>nielsm: that's 'utilisation'? o_O
12:31<andythenorth>interesting
12:31<andythenorth>isn't that on groups now?
12:31<nielsm>I don't think it's quite the same thing
12:32<nielsm>I didn't see anything that measured distance travelled and kept statistics on it
12:32<andythenorth>I think the groups thing is just load %?
12:32<andythenorth>which confused people here
12:32<nielsm>I think "utilisation" on a group is mostly just the average load percentage of the vehicles
12:33<nielsm>this one is actually how much of the time throughout a year the vehicle has run fully loaded, more or less
12:33<andythenorth>average load % should always be ~40% or ~100% (bi-directional cargo) so it's a useless number :)
12:33<nielsm>and also measures (or can measure) how much the vehicle is sitting idle
12:34<nielsm>penalizing vehicles waiting for full load in a station without receiving cargo
12:34<nielsm>meaning if you have too many vehicles on a route, the total efficiency drops
12:34<andythenorth>yeah this sounds like actual utilisation
12:35<andythenorth>miles travelled / cargo ton miles travelled
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12:36<andythenorth>peter1138: there's some kind of "NRT" branch kicking around
12:36<andythenorth>I think it adds 64 road and tram types to ottd
12:36<andythenorth>not sure
12:38<peter1138>https://github.com/PeterN/OpenTTD/commits/nrt-block-64-rail/road/tram-types
12:38<peter1138>I already did that, you know./
12:38<andythenorth>I didn't see it in OpenTTD pull requests :)
12:42<peter1138>I wouldn't dare to assume I'd be allowed to 2 bytes the map array :p
12:45<andythenorth>pull request finds out
12:45<andythenorth>roll the dice, might come up 6
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12:47<nielsm>hmm I hope I remember how to do this rebase onto thing
12:49<andythenorth>shame I can't ctrl-click articulated vehicles :P
12:50*andythenorth thinks it should be an available option
12:50<LordAro>nielsm: rebase onto? you shouldn't need that unless it's a branch for the old git repo
12:50<peter1138>^
12:51<peter1138>I can't ctrl-click your player face
12:51<nielsm>yes it's from the old repo :)
12:51<peter1138>We should allow that.
12:51<peter1138>Then you could have the earring on either side.
12:51<andythenorth>I can ctrl-click the player face
12:51<andythenorth>is your ottd broken?
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12:54<nielsm>btw what's the common practice for developing patches that need to bump savegame version?
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12:54<peter1138>I recommend bumping the version.
12:54<Wolf01>o/
12:55<Wolf01>Agreed
12:55<@Alberth>o/
13:01<Wolf01><andythenorth> roll the dice, might come up 6 <- 20, natural critical hit, throw again to confirm
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13:13<peter1138>When you look at landscape_grid.html, there's a lot of unused bits...
13:13<peter1138>Maybe we can use the unused bits from over tile types.
13:13<Wolf01>Yeah, one here, one there
13:14<Wolf01>We might need to defrag it soon or later
13:15<peter1138>:-)
13:18<Wolf01>If we remove trees from saves could we add 64 roadtypes? :P
13:20<peter1138>64 treetypes
13:20<nielsm>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/compare/master...nielsmh:cargotiles <-- if I were to PR this, would it be better to separate the introduction of Vehicle::Travel() into a separate commit?
13:25<peter1138>Why do you need subposition instead of tiles?
13:26<andythenorth>we do need treetypes
13:26<andythenorth>I can't remember why
13:26<andythenorth>but I wrote a spec somewhere
13:26<nielsm>peter1138: because I want to record the actual distance traveled, without rounding errors
13:27<peter1138>Tiles is the actual distance travelled.
13:27<nielsm>(this was the most immediate way I found to calculate it)
13:27<andythenorth>oh yeah treetypes https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=72502
13:27<andythenorth>and something about "- compression of trees in map (savegame)"
13:28<peter1138>andythenorth, well, that's just an issue of random data. It doesn't compress very well.
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13:28<andythenorth>the idea was newgrf trees
13:29<andythenorth>with a (cached result) varaction 2 chain to determine which sprites to show
13:29<andythenorth>then it's just 'tree' and some random bits on the tile
13:29<andythenorth>and trees could have a periodic processing cb, to handle seasonal / random changes
13:30<andythenorth>naturally it could also then be abused for randomly planted 'object' sprites :D
13:31<nielsm>trees that at some point in their lifecycle explode and destroy everything around them, leaving a crater
13:31<nielsm>please
13:31<nielsm>if you don't find and cut them down ahead of time
13:32<andythenorth>I hadn't allowed for that in the spec :P
13:32<andythenorth>but periodic forest fires should be possible :P
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13:49<Wolf01>andythenorth: ship https://i0.wp.com/farm1.staticflickr.com/908/42237850151_3ff3c7a347_z.jpg?resize=625%2C469&ssl=1
13:51<andythenorth>not pixels
13:51<Wolf01>Are AWS down? DDoS? I can't reach half of the interwebz
13:55<andythenorth>https://status.aws.amazon.com/
13:55<Wolf01>That's why I asked, I can't reach that page
13:55<andythenorth>works for me :|
13:56<Wolf01>I suspect my provider is broken
13:57<Wolf01>Some sites work like a charm, full speed, other sites respond after minutes, other ones are literally unreachable
14:01<andythenorth>"everything is awesome"
14:02<Wolf01>2
14:02<Wolf01>I wonder if they are able to ruin it
14:19<nielsm>tried a different dns provider?
14:21<LANJesus>https://status.aws.amazon.com
14:24<andythenorth>chicken dinner?
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14:29<LANJesus>oh i'm blind. andythenorth already linked : (
14:30<andythenorth>metro trains lower height than normal trains? o_O
14:38<Wolf01>nielsm, yes, I'm using 3 different dns services, the problem is the route itself somewhere near the backbone which usually has problems
14:42<andythenorth>so ctrl-clicking on any vehicle in an articulated consist would flip the bit on the lead vehicle
14:43<andythenorth>only allowed if a flag is set
14:43<andythenorth>newgrf has to handle reversing the vehicle, ottd won't do
14:43<andythenorth>sounds good eh? o_O
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15:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but should it flip the order of the articulated parts?
15:06<andythenorth>no
15:07<andythenorth>the author has to handle all that via cb36
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>all applications of flipping would be easier if it did
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>all that i have in mind
15:07<andythenorth>but then the consist would be invalid :P
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>no, why?
15:07<andythenorth>because some properties aren't valid for trailing parts
15:08<andythenorth>and the lead part would be moved to last position
15:09<andythenorth>hmm, cb36 for that too :P
15:09<andythenorth>make author handle it
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>why can't the last vehicle be the "lead" in that case?
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15:12<frosch123>i think we should also newgrf to freely map functions to middle and right mouse button
15:12<frosch123>just to annoy andy :)
15:13<TrueBrain>[10:42] <peter1138> TrueBrain, why can't DorpsGek_GH chat here? It's not particularly spammy. <- it needs the channel to be without +nt .. which is not really ideal in any sorts or form; soon this will be solved thou .. if I can find the time :D
15:14<TrueBrain>(doing your garden takes more time than expected :D)
15:14<andythenorth>such gardening
15:14<andythenorth>also surprisingly satisfying
15:14<andythenorth>frosch123: is that because I have no mouse buttons? :(
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15:23<andythenorth>so is peter1138 allowed to add 2 bytes to the map array then? o_O
15:24<andythenorth>I'm sure we'll all learn something from it ;)
15:26<frosch123>i don't mind more map, i would make it a uint16 though
15:27<frosch123>it's easier to split a uint16 into bits than to combine multiple bytes into something bigger
15:31<LordAro>TrueBrain: would -nt be such a bad thing?
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15:34<frosch123>i think tb wants a custom bot anyway :)
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15:37<Eddi|zuHause>somehow quitting steam throws X into a 100% CPU loop
15:38<andythenorth>computing is great
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>that happens since the last update, as far as i can tell
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16:15<+michi_cc>Anybody here who can read arabic or hebrew? Or who can tell/show me how OpenTTD text should look like?
16:16<nielsm>uh I think I can somewhat tell if it "looks right", but don't actually know the languages
16:17<nielsm>(I've worked a bit with international text rendering in a different context)
16:19<+michi_cc>Okay, so http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/hebrew_1.png or http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/hebrew_2.png ?
16:19<nielsm>first seems right
16:20<nielsm>at least with regards to placement of punctuation and interspersed LTR/RTL
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16:21<nielsm>except for the graphics and sound set description texts, those seem to use an incorrect base flow direction
16:23<+michi_cc>Hmm, yeah, that does seem right. Except that hebrew.txt explicitly specifies ##textdir rtl
16:23<nielsm>okay
16:23<nielsm>second is actually correct
16:23<LordAro>lol
16:24<nielsm>comparing the window title to how a text editor with correct bidi handling displays STR_SETTINGS_MENU_GAME_OPTIONS
16:24<nielsm>but it still does mixed-direction content wrong
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16:25<nielsm>i.e. the (GBP) in the currency dropdown
16:26<nielsm>and the music set description which is untranslated ought to use LTR as base text direction
16:26<nielsm>(but it gets handled as RTL so the period is placed wrong)
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16:27<nielsm>possibly some of those things are best fixed by just inserting unicode directional marks in the strings to get them right
16:27<+michi_cc>Well, untranslated is something that is long lost by the time the string goes through the layout phase.
16:28<nielsm>could the translation reader maybe prepend an LTR mark if it picks an untranslated string when the selected language is RTL?
16:28<nielsm>or would that break untold numbers of things? :)
16:29<+michi_cc>The currency thing might actually simply be from the lang file, as that contains the (GBP) first in the string.
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>so the langfile needs the LTR mark there?
16:29<nielsm>huh okay I see that
16:29<+michi_cc>BTW, hebrew_1 is the straight ICU output (except with exceptions suppressed because otherwise it would fail half the time).
16:30<+michi_cc>So maybe the translation might also have been fudged to cause ICU to output what is wanted.
16:30<nielsm>perhaps
16:31<nielsm>have to ask the translators
16:31<nielsm>http://0x0.st/s2ov.png
16:33<nielsm>how do the strings for those two last currencies render?
16:34<nielsm>and on a second thought, prepending LTR marks to untranslated strings during loading is going to break things, when things get combined in the formatting stuff
16:35<nielsm>(what should it do if an untranslated string is glued into the middle of a translated one? or vice versa?)
16:38<+michi_cc>The string should probably be framed by LRO (or LRE, or LRI, or FSI (why do there have to be so many...)) and PDF/PDI
16:41<nielsm>I still think it's going to break, better to leave it simple and just accept that incomplete translations will result in potentially broken bidi
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16:44<Kilm>Hi folks
16:45<Kilm>Quick question, possibly stupid, but I can't see the answer - the function that lets you see what area a path signal covers.. how do i get that to show? I'm trying very hard to understand this black magic stuff.
16:46<nielsm>it's in the advanced settings somewhere
16:46<nielsm>"Show path reservations for tracks"
16:46<Kilm>Awesome
16:49<Kilm>Oh my god
16:49<Kilm>It's like suddenly understand physics
16:51<nielsm>next go spend a few days with SimSig
16:51<nielsm>:)
16:53<Kilm>Haha, just had a look.
16:53<Kilm>Nope.
16:53<Kilm>:)
16:54<nielsm>it's a very good teaching experience!
16:55<nielsm>(and will probably give some more appreciation for the causes of train delays in real life)
16:59<Kilm>I've been away from TT for over a decade, ever since I lost the save of a game I'd been playing for about nine years. It's amazing how quickly it comes back.
16:59<Kilm>Though I've just realised the value of 'full load' for ratings increases.
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17:07<andythenorth>such bed
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17:09<Kilm>I take it the trick with Open TTD is not to really care about time?
17:09<Kilm>I'm trying to understand the path and station loading stuff, and it's taking a year for a train to fully load.
17:09<Kilm>So it's still making £20k profit a year, but it's only getting one run a year in.
17:09<peter1138>frosch123, re uint16, I suppose so. It does mean you need more SB/GB if previously you just accessed the full byte.
17:10<LordAro>Kilm: longer routes are in general more profitable
17:10<peter1138>frosch123, I did actually do it as uint16 first but changed it! ;)
17:10<LordAro>also, depending how you measure tiles are ~40m in length or a few hundred km
17:10<LordAro>i think
17:12<peter1138>less than 40m.
17:12<Kilm>Yeah LordAro, I'm just trying to figure out the basics a bit more. So to make two trains of seven length wait for full cargo of coal, each one takes a year to fill but brings in £20k. If I do 'if available' then they only make £8k each.
17:12<Kilm>In a year.
17:12<Kilm>That's one question sorted.
17:14<nielsm>if you want to optimize for company rating score, you definitely want trains to make more than 1 delivery a year on average
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>Kilm: the key part to optimize here is that the station is never empty, always a train loading. otherwise the rating goes down, and you get less cargo to transport
17:23<Wolf01>'night
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17:24<Eddi|zuHause>only then you gradually tune the length of the train vs. amount of trains, so you have less time wasted loading, while not overloading your network
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17:43<peter1138>Hmm, well
17:47<Kilm>Ah okay.
17:48<Kilm>So rather than having seven carriages sat loading for a year, trim it to for example, four and see how it works out in time vs profit
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19:40<Eddi|zuHause>every time someone says "singals on bridges and in tunnels is already done" i want to scream at them how wrong they are
19:50<Supercheese>they really mean "signals on bridges and in tunnels is already crudely hacked in"
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