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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-05-26

---Logopened Sat May 26 00:00:27 2018
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03:20<andythenorth>o/
03:36<peter1138>yo
03:36<peter1138>TGP sucks for subtropic
03:37<peter1138>But I'm going out on the bike now.
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03:40<andythenorth>such raining
03:41<andythenorth>I probably shouldn't do a troll release of Horse 2
03:41<andythenorth>just 6 metro trains :P
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04:48<Wolf01>o/
05:04<andythenorth>hi Wolf01
05:04<andythenorth>back of the Bugatti looks badass
05:04*andythenorth not into cars, but eh
05:04<Wolf01>I still hope it's not only aesthetics
05:04<andythenorth>car mechanisms are boring though no?
05:05<andythenorth>I doubt it has working brakes, the new parts look cosmetic not functional
05:05<Wolf01>Yeah, but making a complex shift and hide it under layers of bricks it's not in the spirit of technic
05:06<andythenorth>+1
05:11<Wolf01>I modded the porsche to be able to take off the chassis and see what happens when you use the shift, and that's really cool because it resembles the old 853
05:11<Wolf01>https://brickset.com/sets/853-1/Car-Chassis <- this one
05:13<andythenorth>I had this one https://brickset.com/sets/8860-1/Car-Chassis
05:14<andythenorth>boxer engine
05:14<Wolf01>Yeah, that too
05:22<Wolf01>Meh, I have too many games on steam, a lot of categories...
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05:30<Wolf01>Quak
05:31<frosch123>moo
05:33<Wolf01>\o/ finished to categorize the steam games... until the next bundle purchase
05:37<Wolf01>Now... lego, I need to update the inventory :|
05:39<andythenorth>peter1138 has swapped a pile of patches for a pile of branches :) https://github.com/PeterN/OpenTTD/branches/active
05:39<Wolf01>:D
05:39<andythenorth>we'll have to start saying "peter has a branch for that"
05:40<Wolf01>At least they are now public
05:40<Wolf01>Meh, fuck lego and the 50 shades of blue
05:41<Wolf01>Is this medium blue or dark azure?
05:41<Wolf01>Who knows
05:41<andythenorth>who knows
05:41<andythenorth>stick to red
05:41<andythenorth>I redrew this http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/nightlies/v6709-2343/docs/html/trains.html#serpentine
05:42<andythenorth>to this eh http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/trains.html#serpentine
05:43<Wolf01>They look more weathered... and smaller, less toy-ish
05:46<andythenorth>45% complete on horse 2
05:46<andythenorth>eh look at all the PRs :) https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pulls
05:47<LordAro>someone should merge some of them
05:47<Wolf01>Wow
05:49<andythenorth>"Approved: Probably fine"
05:50<nielsm>randumb idea, allow some of the earliest goods cars to be refitted for passengers, but they pay much less, except that 70 years after the car type's introduction they pay more than normal passengers (but are still limited in speed)
05:50<nielsm>not sure if that's possible
05:50<andythenorth>it's possible in newgrf
05:50<andythenorth>why 70 years? o_O
05:51<nielsm>just some random threshold
05:51<nielsm>for when it's considered vintage
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>i'd advise against putting passengers in goods cars.... for people willl get the wrong ideas about it...
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06:07<andythenorth>universal wagon
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07:39<Wolf01>https://xkcd.com/1998/ lolled too much
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09:03<peter1138>LordAro, you riding tomorrow or is it gonna rain?
09:21*andythenorth stops playing tanks
09:22<LordAro>peter1138: i hope to be
09:23<peter1138>Hmm, forecast here is now only a little bit of rain.
09:23<Wolf01>Mmmh, train derails continuously always in the same spot
09:27<peter1138>Grr, sticking spacebar :(
09:28<peter1138>Guess I need to take it apart and wash everything.
09:33<andythenorth>or you have a mac
09:33<andythenorth>where it's now a feature
09:34<andythenorth>https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT205662
09:34<andythenorth>"Pro"
09:34<andythenorth>"If any keys are still unresponsive after you've followed these steps" then congrats on choosing Apple
09:35<Wolf01>Lol
09:36<andythenorth>mac keyboards used to be bulletproof
09:37*andythenorth bbl
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12:08<andythenorth>o/
12:23<snail_UES_>hey guys, question about set planning
12:24<snail_UES_>how would you prefer engines of different generations be treated? say a type of engine gets released, then after 10 years it gets slightly improved
12:24<snail_UES_>would you rather have just one ID, with vehicles changing according to year of built
12:24<snail_UES_>or separate IDs?
12:25<nielsm>I think I prefer same ID, but it has to be "obvious" that it's a new generation of the vehicle imo
12:26<andythenorth>different IDs
12:26<nielsm>about https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6796 -- autosave when getting disconnected from a network game
12:27<nielsm>should autosave when getting disconnected because of an error, and because the server is restarting/shutting down, be considered separate cases for the configuration setting?
12:27<andythenorth>snail_UES_: is 10 years an actual case, or just an example?
12:28<snail_UES_>andythenorth: it’s just an example
12:29<snail_UES_>a real case would be the Pacific steamers of my French set
12:29<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/trains.html#growler
12:29<snail_UES_>they were introduced in ~1910
12:29<andythenorth>Growler reappears as Slug and Phoenix later ^^
12:29<snail_UES_>then a new version, greatly improved, got out in ~1923
12:29<andythenorth>30 year gap, different IDs
12:29<snail_UES_>then an even better one came out in ~1934
12:29<andythenorth>I wouldn't do 13 year gaps
12:29<snail_UES_>I’m debating whether I should keep them in different IDs
12:29<andythenorth>I'd consolidate
12:30<snail_UES_>could be 1910, 1925 and 1935
12:30<andythenorth>average the stats between two types
12:30<snail_UES_>something like that
12:46<peter1138>Well
12:46<peter1138>You probably won't hit the ID limit.
12:47<peter1138>nielsm, commit message style ;)
12:48<nielsm>peter1138 where?
12:48<peter1138>Oh, never mind, it's just still building :p
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12:49<peter1138>Gotta say I'm confused as to why it's a gui setting.
12:49<nielsm>it's not
12:50<peter1138>It's in GUISettings.
12:50<nielsm>oh
12:50<nielsm>well it's a client-only setting
12:50<peter1138>Yeah, I know, the other autosave one is too.
12:50<peter1138>Mmm
12:50<nielsm>"least inappropriate place"
12:52<peter1138>Maybe :)
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13:04<Eddi|zuHause><snail_UES_> would you rather have just one ID, with vehicles changing according to year of built <-- separate IDs, otherwise people get problems with autoreplace
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>that basically outweighs any benefits you might construct
13:05<snail_UES_>Eddi|zuHause: yes, autoreplace was what I was thinking about… OTOH having fewer IDs keeps the purchase list cleaner
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>handle the purchase list with "retire early" property
13:06<snail_UES_>that’s not always going to be possible, but yeah
13:07<peter1138>Feature request: purchase list variants.
13:07<+michi_cc>So, which MIDI PR to merge? #6787, #6779 or #6774?
13:07<LordAro>select at random
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13:08<+michi_cc>LordAro: I'm biased I'm afraid.
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>biased is the best random? :p
13:08<peter1138>I like 6787
13:09<LordAro>michi_cc: i did not specify a distribution
13:09<peter1138>Are they all exclusive?
13:09<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: #6787 and #6774 should both fulfil your desire for no extra DirectMusic compile farm stuff.
13:09<peter1138>Erm, I've lost my spacebar.
13:10<LordAro>check the sofa
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13:10<peter1138>6774 is already closed?
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>drank too much?
13:10<+michi_cc>peter1138: Yes. It should be obvious why #6774 is exclusive to the others, and #6779 fixes stuff that doesn't apply with 6787 anymore.
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>"yesterday i came out of the bar stone-cold sober, and then some idiot stepped on my hands!"
13:12<nielsm>the main argument I can think of _against_ #6787 would be "that's a damn huge chunk of code for some music"
13:13<nielsm>but so is my own stuff
13:14<nielsm>if you merge that I'll go and fix up #6775 too :)
13:14<snail_UES_>peter1138: purchase list variants would actually be a cool feature :p
13:14<peter1138>nielsm, hmm, still not saving on server shutdown
13:15<snail_UES_>since my locomotives will come in different flavors (sharing the same ID)… you’ll buy it, and then you can cycle through the variants by refitting to passengers
13:15<nielsm>peter1138 huh odd, I specifically tested that
13:15<snail_UES_>it would be nice to be able to choose the variant upon purchasing
13:15<peter1138>Oh no, not refitting!
13:15<nielsm>bbl, food
13:16<snail_UES_>could you suggest any better alternatives?
13:16<peter1138>Purchase list variants feature ;)
13:16<+michi_cc>nielsm: The real argument against #6787 is: Hey, have new and exciting bugs! :p
13:16<peter1138>Something openttd would need to implement but it would be usable.
13:17<snail_UES_>peter1138: :D I would like to ask for it, but OTTD developers have the interesting habit of shooting down 99.9% of any new feature requests :p
13:17<peter1138>snail_UES_, nobody requested it ;)
13:18<peter1138>I like this one, it's simply a gui change, no actual change to any other logic.
13:18<snail_UES_>honestly I would also love to have it. It would unbelievably simplify my life as a newGRF developer
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13:20<andythenorth>snail_UES_: ctrl-click :P
13:20<peter1138>andythenorth, stupid
13:20<andythenorth>it's great
13:20<snail_UES_>what do you mean by ctrl-click?
13:21<andythenorth>I am proposing that ctrl-clicking a vehicle cycles through up to 16 variants
13:21<andythenorth>in depot
13:21<andythenorth>apparently the correct way is some extension of cargo subtypes :P
13:21<andythenorth>despite that choosing menu items in ottd is horrible :P
13:21<snail_UES_>yes, cargo subtypes is the way I’m handling it now
13:21<andythenorth>cargo subtypes are appalling
13:22<snail_UES_>you buy the engine, then refit it to “0 passengers” choosing a variant other than default
13:22<andythenorth>ugh
13:22<andythenorth>that's awful
13:22<peter1138>Quite
13:22<peter1138>That's why new feature
13:22<snail_UES_>I agree it’s not great, but currently there’s no alternative
13:22*andythenorth -> tanks
13:25<peter1138>Hmm, wonder if we already have a suitable icon.
13:27<snail_UES_>also, there should be a way in the code to figure out the engine’s current variant (I’m using userbits now)
13:27<snail_UES_>coz some specs, attachment rules etc. would change according to the variants
13:27<peter1138>no
13:28<peter1138>because it's a separate engine id.
13:28<snail_UES_>oh… so you mean to consolidate different engine IDs in the purchase list?
13:28<peter1138>yes
13:28<peter1138>with ability to select between them
13:28<snail_UES_>I see your idea… that would be nice
13:28<peter1138>no messing with refit
13:28<snail_UES_>would make life even easier as you wouldn’t have to check for userbits
13:29<peter1138>and you can use autoreplace to upgrade
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>i'd like the "variants" to be detectable from the articulated callback, so i could have different amounts of articulated parts
13:30<peter1138>if it's a different engine id, you can detect that, no?
13:30<snail_UES_>if they were different IDs, you can detect anything
13:30<snail_UES_>in principle they could even have a different number of articulated parts
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>i'd also like a way to synchronize introduction dates
13:32<peter1138>Hmm, separate but similar feature.
13:32<snail_UES_>peter1138: so more than “purchase list variants”, this would be a way to group separate IDs in the purchase list
13:33<snail_UES_>and it would require to add something to the GUI in order to do this
13:33<peter1138>I was thinking of only showing one in the list, and then expand when you view it
13:33<peter1138>Yeah
13:33<snail_UES_>yeah, one that could be a placeholder
13:33<peter1138>Well, it would be the 'first' one
13:34<peter1138>OpenTTD can handle making the user aware of it. NewGRF-wise it's just a vehicle that is very similar.
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>what if i want my groups to be "all express steam engines", "all freight steam engines", etc.?
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>the purchase list entry would then maybe have to be a "virtual" vehicle
13:35<peter1138>It's engine variants, not groups.
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>semantics...
13:38<andythenorth>oh yeah that was an idea
13:38<andythenorth>multiple engine IDs, one menu option
13:38<andythenorth>variants
13:38<andythenorth>just use the + disclosure thing peter1138 ?
13:39<peter1138>Maybe
13:40<andythenorth>there needs to be some 'group' thing as well, just a value
13:40<andythenorth>for reasons
13:40<andythenorth>(action 0 prop)
13:41<andythenorth>dword is enough :P
13:43<snail_UES_>peter1138: my initial idea was to have engine variants sharing the same ID
13:43<snail_UES_>since you’re proposing them not to share the same ID, this might as well be groups?
13:44<Wolf01>Group them by name + variant extension
13:45<peter1138>Grouping conflicts with sorting & filtering a bit.
13:47<Wolf01>First filter, then group, then sort
13:52<peter1138>Ok
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13:52<peter1138>Sounds different to variants though. Hmm.
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13:56<peter1138>Hmm
13:57<peter1138>Is cross-NewGRF variant/grouping good/bad?
13:57<snail_UES_>peter1138: I was thinking about it only for my vehicles...
13:57<snail_UES_>cross-newGRF would mean we’d need to introduce standards
13:57<snail_UES_>and this can be a can of worms :)
13:57<peter1138>Indeed.
14:03<andythenorth>imagine
14:03<andythenorth>there would be some great forum threads
14:03<andythenorth>"Groups schema"
14:03<andythenorth>"New Groups schema"
14:03<andythenorth>"Please tell me which groups schema is correct"
14:03<andythenorth>and someone would rage quit
14:04<andythenorth>peter1138: my intention would be that the group is on the vehicle name
14:04<peter1138>For this reason, I'm using Engine IDs instead of labels. It's kinda arbitrary, but Engine IDs are already GRF-local.
14:04<andythenorth>they would all share a common string, and could have additional substrings maybe?
14:04<peter1138>Although...
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14:07<peter1138>https://github.com/PeterN/OpenTTD/commit/7cf44716828c93945d2f94fdf4eead282cea85cd < that's the easy bit
14:07<peter1138>18:31 < Eddi|zuHause> i'd also like a way to synchronize introduction dates
14:07<peter1138>Although I've not tested it.
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14:14<andythenorth>I'll need to patch nml for groups eh? :P
14:15<peter1138>Well
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14:20<Eddi|zuHause>what does "NewVehicleAvailable(es)" do?
14:22<peter1138>It introductes it :p
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>btu does that spawn a separate prototype offer?
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>*but
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14:26<Eddi|zuHause>hey, i finally set my wallclock forward 1 hour!
14:29<snail_UES_>peter1138: a set of variants (or “group”) should be created within a newGRF… using only internal IDs
14:29<snail_UES_>otherwise it’s a mess
14:30<snail_UES_>each set of variants could have a name, like a placeholder, and then each single variant would have the proper ID’s name
14:47<andythenorth>what if you want substrings for names? o_O
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14:57<Eddi|zuHause>you can handle substrings within nml, the game doesn't need to know about them
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>(they must be static, though)
14:59<andythenorth>how would that work?
14:59<andythenorth>all vehicles in the group share the same name
15:04<snail_UES_>andythenorth: no, because they’re different IDs
15:04<andythenorth>well what's shown in the buy menu then? o_O
15:05<andythenorth>there has to be a string for the group
15:05<andythenorth>and making a new string for it is silly
15:08<snail_UES_>it could either be a placeholder, or it could be the name of the 1st ID sharing that group
15:09<snail_UES_>the newGRF developer would choose which IDs would share the same groups, and sort them accordingly...
15:09<andythenorth>not if it's an action 0 prop ;)
15:09<andythenorth>there's no way to specificy sort order
15:10<snail_UES_>order by engine ID? after all it’s just a number
15:10<andythenorth>seems reasonable
15:10<snail_UES_>or a group could have “name” as a property
15:10<andythenorth>groups table :P
15:10<snail_UES_>a group could be, “Pacific type (Steam)”
15:10<andythenorth>position = group ID :P
15:11<snail_UES_>and each IDs could be: “Pacific livery A” … “Pacific livery B” etc
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15:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't know how peter1138 intended it, but it sounded like you define one vehicle as the "master", and all others as "share the same buy menu entry as $ID"
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>i was suggesting that this "master" vehicle could somehow be a "virtual" one, i.e. one that only appears in the buy menu, but cannot be bought
15:42<V453000>WOW, story: 1. on NUTS 0.7.8 I started adding cargoes for FIRS2 compatibility. 2. I realized that NUTS has 666 wagon classes and stopped midway through, finding it too much work. 3. I needed to make a new version of NUTS with some BRIX relation, 4. I got rid of the unfinished cargo support, 5. I did some things and released 0.7.9, 6. I made myself actually forget that I got rid of the unfinished cargo support and literally believed that I ca
15:42<V453000>7. I found out that I actually can
15:42<V453000>:D
15:42<snail_UES_>Eddi|zuHause: I like your idea
15:43<snail_UES_>like putting a placeholder as the group definition, and then the GUI would allow you to choose which variant you’d actually buy
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18:10<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: I solved you MSVC ICU troubles: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6798
18:10<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: It's likely not the solution you're expecting, but still... :)
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18:53<+glx>oh I like the idea michi_cc
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19:48<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun May 27 00:00:28 2018