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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-05-28

---Logopened Mon May 28 00:00:30 2018
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02:22<andythenorth>o/
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06:18*Sacro grumbles about having to accept the GPL to install OpenTTD
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>by "accept" you mean "press a button that has no legal binding anyway"?
06:45<Flygon>But do you have at least 16 megabytes of RAM for Heralds?
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>those never worked for me
06:46<Flygon>You need the .avi folders inside your CIV2 install folder.
06:46<Flygon>Or the CD-ROM in the tray.
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i kept those
06:47<Flygon>I can .zip up the two folders necessary, if you want.
06:47<Flygon>(Glad you get the reference. :D)
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>also, last time i tried in wine, it didn't run properly anyway
06:47<Flygon>Whelp.
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>also, i don't have 16GB of ram :p
06:49<Flygon>A-hahaha, as a kid, I never thought 16GB of RAM would be casual.
06:49<Flygon>Now it's almost low-end...
06:49<LordAro>Civ2 best game
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>i should still have an old laptop where the only games i had on were Civ2, SC2000 and Transport Tycoon
06:51<Flygon>I do wish it supported some niceties that FreeCiv does supply nowadays.
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>i never could enjoy freeciv
06:52<LordAro>it's been a long time since i tried freeciv, but i always felt it was missing something
06:52<Flygon>I just want CivII.
06:52<Flygon>But better. @_@
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>Civ II HD remake? :p
06:53<Flygon>Apparently the source code is lost. :(
06:53<Flygon>And disassembling is... finnicky.
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if that would be much help anyway
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>just get a modern engine, and reconstruct the game rules?
06:54<LordAro>Flygon: well it seems to have worked quite well for OTTD & ORCT2 :p
06:54<Flygon>Gotta capture those weird edge quirks, that made CivII CivII.
06:54<Flygon>Well... yes, true. :D
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>any quirks you have in mind?
06:56<Flygon>Not immediately.
06:56<Flygon>I suspect it's one of those things you don't notice all the little weirdnesses until they're missing.
06:57<Flygon>But yes I want HD Elvis.
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, at least since i got into civ4, i haven't been able to enjoy the civ2 rules anyway
06:57<Flygon>I want CivII... with SMACX rules.
06:58<Flygon>If that makes sense.
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>not really :p
06:58<Flygon>Actual national borders.
06:58<Flygon>Better Government system.
06:59<Flygon>Upgrading for Cash, not Leonardos.
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>all those things are in Civ4
07:00<Flygon>true dat.
07:00<Flygon>Hehehe.
07:00<Flygon>I miss the GetInfo.exe things.
07:00<Flygon>That showed a photo whenever you got a tech.
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what you mean
07:01<Flygon>In CivII Classic.
07:02<Flygon>When you got a tech researched, it showed a really cool thing showing some stuff about the technology you got.
07:02<Flygon>MGE lacks that stuff.
07:02<Flygon>No photo and such on MGE.
07:03<Flygon>Researching Steam Engine showed a photo of a Steam Locomotive.
07:05<Flygon>And Warrior Code a... Warrior.
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure they could have made that in civ4
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, you could have pictures for events and stuff
07:05<Flygon>Yeah, that's what CivII Classic did.
07:06<Flygon>The Gold version lacked it because GetInfo.exe was troublesome for modding.
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i had any of those
07:07<Flygon>Yeah, a lot of people on 64-bit systems also lack it.
07:07<Flygon>Classic was a 16-bit .exe
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07:56<peter1138>Yeah, Civ2 was the best one.
07:57<peter1138>Civ4win was nice too :)
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11:31<supermop>yo
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11:35<@Alberth>oi
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11:39<peter1138>oi oi
11:41<Pikka>o/
11:47<supermop>hows it going
11:47<RedJimi>stumped with the Klingon translation of ottd
11:48<RedJimi>you?
11:58<supermop>nothing much
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12:15<@Alberth>o/
12:18<frosch123>moo
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12:19<andythenorth>o/
12:19<supermop>hi andy
12:20<andythenorth>lo supermop :)
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12:22<supermop>how are the horses?
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12:25<andythenorth>supermop: horses are good
12:25<andythenorth>46% sprites done
12:27<andythenorth>I am waiting for peter1138 to patch buy menu groups :P
12:27<andythenorth>then I can put all the 'short', 'medium', 'long' etc wagons in one entry :P
12:28<peter1138>I need a new keyboard :S
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12:33<Thedarkb>Argh, YAPF fucked up on me again.
12:36<peter1138>No it didn't
12:36<Thedarkb>Allow me to rephrase that
12:37<Thedarkb>YAPF sent my train on a long and circuitous route and I needed to make a waypoint for it it take the shorter route.
12:37<peter1138>That means something is wrong on your layout somewhere.
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12:38<peter1138>Probably ended up going to a depot that you hadn't planned for.
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12:39<Thedarkb>Servicing is off.
12:39<Thedarkb>Breakdowns are off.
12:41<@Alberth>or the intended route cannot be used due to missing rail piece or wrong track-type or so
12:41<andythenorth>YAPF is never wrong
12:41<andythenorth>except for RVs
12:42<Thedarkb>It's going fine now.
12:42<Thedarkb>With the waypoint in place.
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12:44<andythenorth>nice fix for 5998
12:44<andythenorth>have we got a git issue bot btw?
12:44<Thedarkb>https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HnigEu1.png
12:44<Thedarkb>This is my junction.
12:45<Thedarkb>It went straight on instead of left.
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12:45<Thedarkb>It just did it again on the other end of that line.
12:48<peter1138>You have to consider the complete network, not just the junction.
12:49<peter1138>Pathfinding chooses the shortest complete path. It doesn't just look at the junction.
12:49<andythenorth>signal penalties and stuff
12:50<peter1138>If it's an electric train you may be missing a piece of electrified track.
12:50<_dp_>this junction is disgusting, I would totally go straight there too :P
12:51<Thedarkb>How would you do it?
12:51<peter1138>Flat path signals.
12:52<Thedarkb>Really?
12:52<peter1138>Yeah.
12:52<Thedarkb>I have one junction so mangled and disgusting, I had to use pre signals to get it to work properly.
12:52<peter1138>And at the crossings at the bottom left, I'd remove the signals that are in the wrong places.
12:53<peter1138>The key to correct path signalling is safe-waiting-points.
12:53<Thedarkb>Define wrong places.
12:54<peter1138>The 4 non-path-signals after the crossings are wrongb.
12:54<peter1138>-b
12:55<peter1138>Those positions are not safe-waiting-points, because if a train is waiting there, it is blocking the junction.
12:55<peter1138>Often with path signals, less is more.
12:55<andythenorth>auto-signalling :P
12:56<andythenorth>ha ha
12:56<_dp_>doesn't rly matter for pathfinder tho
12:56<andythenorth>auto-signalling with the heuristic modifiable in newgrf :P
12:56*andythenorth is terrible
12:56<_dp_>afaict there is nothing on this screenshot that would explain patfinder acting up
12:57<peter1138>A savegame would show it.
12:57<andythenorth>hmm
12:57<Thedarkb>I stuck a waypoint there and it's fine now.
12:57*andythenorth should make a list of new ponies
12:57<andythenorth>there are so many
12:59<Thedarkb>Wanna see something horrifying?
12:59<peter1138>Your savegame? :p
12:59<Thedarkb>https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HninWiZ.png
12:59<Thedarkb>This is the end of that line heading north.
13:01<andythenorth>I should build more big train lines
13:01<andythenorth>mine never look like that
13:01<andythenorth>also I should fix that hotel sprite
13:01<andythenorth>it's abominable
13:01<Thedarkb>I like it.
13:02<Thedarkb>I had a lot more traffic on that line.
13:02<andythenorth>looks like it's traced from a photo, which it isn't
13:02<Thedarkb>Which is why it's massive.
13:02<_dp_>andythenorth, judging by screenshots he builds lines, not trains :D
13:02<Thedarkb>That, and for futureproofing.
13:02<Thedarkb>I only have 132 trains at the moment.
13:02<andythenorth>who allowed supermop to leave? :P
13:03<andythenorth>I have train sprites to discuss
13:03<Thedarkb>I'm playing on a private server for a small retro gaming community.
13:03<Thedarkb>If you think my lines are horrifying.....
13:04<Thedarkb>https://drive.google.com/open?id=11fqlE3P86KoiP_8sr0YKhTkHvnG0S-1P
13:04<Thedarkb>Here's the .sav for you
13:04<peter1138>Black Mesa, heh
13:04<_dp_>I regret not saving solo's srnw cb experiment
13:05<peter1138>So you start with an incredibly slow annoying monorail that you can't skip :p
13:05<_dp_>that looked more like a birdnest than a train network :D
13:05<Thedarkb>I was in fucking awe the first time I saw that sequence.
13:05<Thedarkb>Besides, after the first run you can skip it.
13:05<peter1138>Sure. It was amazing in 1998.
13:06<Thedarkb>It obviously looks crap now, but I still appreciate it.
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13:07<Thedarkb>andythenorth, supermop is ready to receive your wrath.
13:07<peter1138>Right, I put WD-40 on my spacebar and it's a bit better now.
13:07<Thedarkb>3 in 1 is good for keyboards.
13:07<peter1138>I know it's not quite the right stuff, but I was seriously frustrated :p
13:08<andythenorth>can I fix my mac that way?
13:08<peter1138>andythenorth, what uncommitable branch should I work on today?
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13:08<andythenorth>peter1138: 2 secs
13:08<Thedarkb>Did anyone have a look at my awful network.
13:08<andythenorth>here we go peter1138 https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1207687#p1207687
13:09<andythenorth>does 64 cargos break any newgrf spec stuff?
13:09<andythenorth>besides renum, which is useless anyway
13:09<andythenorth>supermop: railcars innit http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/trains.html#deasil
13:09<andythenorth>also tube trains http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/trains.html#serpentine
13:10<_dp_>peter1138, how can it not be right? http://www.taproot.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/wd40-ducttape.jpg
13:10<peter1138>:D
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13:10<peter1138>andythenorth, refit masks are still 32 bit so you can only set the first 32 cargos as refittable. However.
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13:11<andythenorth>_dp_: is there ever a case for both?
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13:11<Thedarkb>Finger slipped.
13:11<andythenorth>peter1138: non-refittable cargos are totally useful
13:11<andythenorth>not sure what for but eh :P
13:11<peter1138>andythenorth, however, if a set uses the refit include list, it's already a list of cargo types, so can exceed that limit.
13:11<Thedarkb>If you want to join for a look, the server is called Kelium95 and the password is weed
13:12<peter1138>andythenorth, or, indeed, cargo classes will still work fine.
13:12<peter1138>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains#List_of_always_refittable_cargo_types_.282C.2C_2D.29
13:12<peter1138>^ 2C/2D for trains, that does not use the bit mask directly so will work fine with more than 32.
13:13<andythenorth>ok
13:13<andythenorth>so 1D is game overed for > 32?
13:14<andythenorth>I can't remember which one nml uses
13:14<andythenorth>but not using 2C/2D would be bonkers
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13:15<peter1138>1D is limited to 32. Bear in mind that's the first 32 cargo types in the set's cargo translation table.
13:15*andythenorth reads nml src
13:15<peter1138>So if there are 64 cargo types and the translation table references the top 32 bits (somehow) it will still work.
13:16<andythenorth>" # 1D (refittable cargo types) is removed, it is zeroed when setting a different refit property
13:16<andythenorth>"
13:16<andythenorth>nml
13:16<peter1138>I would say cargo classes is the preferred way, then explicit list.
13:16<peter1138>Hmm
13:16<andythenorth>" 'cargo_allow_refit' : [{'custom_function': lambda value: ctt_list(0x2C, value)}, zero_refit_mask(0x1D)],"
13:16<peter1138>Heh.
13:17<Thedarkb>lambda value?
13:17<Thedarkb>Half-Life 3 confirmed?
13:22<supermop>looking good andythenorth
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13:34<peter1138>andythenorth, shot myself in the foot by making 2 versions ;(
13:41<andythenorth>peter1138: such branch :P
13:41<peter1138>peter1138's patch pack?
13:42<andythenorth>probably
13:42<andythenorth>I think you'd get a lot of users
13:42<andythenorth>you could make a support bot for them
13:45<peter1138>Nah, people would want their savegames to be upgradable.
13:50<nielsm>peter1138 this chunk looks wrong: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6803/commits/8e5bf372c2b34bc5586e625a1fa25a92cfec7c80#diff-5118ae4803da644dc63903142cc3f8b2
13:50<nielsm>change from constant to magic number?
13:51<andythenorth>isn't that just specifying versions?
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13:52<nielsm>even if it's correct I think a comment to why that is would be appropriate
13:55<peter1138>Actually I'm not sure it is correct.
13:55<peter1138>It's only executed for pre-version 44 savegames, which is quite old.
13:57<peter1138>Pre-version 55 there were only 12 cargo types anyway.
13:58<peter1138>So I guess leaving it at NUM_CARGO would be fine.
13:58<peter1138>Will just be operating on empty data.
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15:05<peter1138>Hmm, my bitset stuff breaks on OS X anyway :p
15:07<LordAro>bit weird
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15:16<Wolf01>o/
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15:32<V453000>ho
15:32<V453000>rse?
15:36<andythenorth>46%
15:36<V453000>I just made a simple python for putting together NML files :D now it needs to automatically compile the final file
15:36<V453000>windoze ftw
15:36<V453000>gg
15:38<andythenorth>winner winner
15:38<andythenorth>chicken dinner
15:38<peter1138>LordAro, dunno, I guess it's something different in the OS X SDK?
15:38<andythenorth>you can't use Make V453000? o_O
15:38<LordAro>peter1138: my bet is on something c++11 related
15:40<V453000>n andythenorth
15:40<V453000>and honestly I'd rather make a py script to do this simple action instead of learning make atm
15:40<andythenorth>subprocess.Popen should do it
15:40<andythenorth>but you end up learning shell either way
15:41<V453000>yes I think Popen works
15:41<andythenorth>https://python-forum.io/Thread-launch-exe-from-python-script-in-windows?pid=12804
15:41<V453000>arr
15:41<V453000>I'm pretty sure I already used it somewhere, too
15:41<andythenorth>not exactly a tutorial :P ^^^
15:42<andythenorth>other people failing to win it
15:42<andythenorth>I just googled though
15:42<V453000>yeah me too https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5469301/run-a-bat-file-using-python-code
15:42<andythenorth>usually the problem with subprocess is getting the parameters shell formatted
15:42<andythenorth>there's a shlex(?) module that can help with that if it's a PITA
15:42<andythenorth>https://docs.python.org/2/library/shlex.html
15:43<andythenorth>but you might not need it
15:44<V453000>well I don't have parameters for my compile
15:44<V453000>I'll just literally run the bat command that I normally run
15:44<_dp_>os.system is probably the easiest to use
15:44<_dp_>not sure if it works on windows tho
15:48<andythenorth>what's the .bat do?
15:48<V453000>just run nmlc :D
15:48<V453000>I know, I could run the nmlc from python directly
15:48<V453000>but this way the compile settings stay in 1 place in the bat command
15:49<V453000>so I can run the bat without running the whole thing
15:49<V453000>it seems to actually work now :?
15:49<V453000>:>
15:49<V453000>gg iWin
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15:51<andythenorth>WR: 51.27%
15:51<andythenorth>oh we're not playing Blitz? o_O
15:53<V453000>that's kind of mediocre isn't it? :P
15:53<andythenorth>I'm not very good
15:53<V453000>99% or auschwitz
15:53<andythenorth>nobody has 99%
15:53<V453000>all to auschwitz \o/
15:53*andythenorth apologises to world for V453000 :|
15:53<V453000>:D
15:57<andythenorth>hmm
15:57<andythenorth>my WR is almost same as damage caused vs. damage received
15:57<andythenorth>so basically, in enough games, skill of other players is irrelevant
15:57<andythenorth>if I get shot less, I'll win more
15:58*andythenorth lost in stats, nobody else will care :)
16:01<V453000>hmmm, it's doing weird shit
16:01<V453000>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pslgxtt2n
16:01<V453000>for some reason I need to press enter to proceed after the combining, and I don't see the console output from the script, it gets overridden by the shell thing?
16:02<V453000>OH
16:02<V453000>the bat command clears the console :D
16:02<V453000>XD
16:03<andythenorth>lol
16:03<andythenorth>GG
16:03<andythenorth>hey let's pretend we're playing Blitz
16:03<andythenorth>"delete game" V453000
16:03<V453000>I must say I didn't remember the subprocess to clean the console :D
16:03<V453000>U WOT M8
16:03<V453000>GRIEF REPORT
16:04<V453000>Let me go historically accurate on your vehicle.
16:04<V453000>Sir.
16:04<andythenorth>you are kid playing on daddy's account
16:04<andythenorth>go back to Barbie
16:04<V453000>:D
16:05<V453000>I hate modern multiplayer games :D
16:05<andythenorth>Blitz comments ;p
16:05<andythenorth>they're so dumb
16:05<V453000>yeah I had my fair share of this nonsense back in Heroes of Newerth
16:05<andythenorth>I had one telling me to "catch cancer", which for personal personal reasons, was massively inappropriate
16:05<V453000>less daddy account because money don't do anything in that game, but much more cancer and just genuine assholism
16:06<V453000>ye
16:06<V453000>"internet"
16:06<andythenorth>it's just feral kids
16:06<V453000>"pinnacle of society"
16:06<V453000>"the technological revolution"
16:06<andythenorth>I think internet is over
16:06<andythenorth>but eh
16:06<andythenorth>trains
16:06<V453000>well now internet is considered to be the basic standard like phone signal :)
16:06<V453000>trains it is.
16:06<V453000>got a python to tame
16:07<V453000>it's still doing really hideous shit
16:08<V453000>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pan2nw0dh
16:08<V453000>see line 6-8
16:08<V453000>I needed to press Enter 3 times in order to actually start the command :D
16:09<andythenorth>dunno
16:09<andythenorth>is that a Windows feature
16:09<V453000>CouldBeNew
16:09<andythenorth>it's a known thing I think
16:09*andythenorth using google skills
16:10<andythenorth>better than yours
16:10<V453000>:D
16:10<andythenorth>oh what?
16:10<andythenorth>I have to sign in to google to search? :O
16:10<andythenorth>since when?
16:12<V453000>:D
16:12<andythenorth>lame
16:12<V453000>totally not interested in your date :P
16:12<andythenorth>https://stackoverflow.com/questions/18765429/how-can-i-surpass-press-any-key-to-continue-in-python
16:12<V453000>no I don't need to log in to search
16:12<andythenorth>I do for some results
16:13<andythenorth>I click the result, and Google wants my password
16:13<andythenorth>and it's not a phishing site
16:13<andythenorth>anyway nvm try that link above
16:13<V453000>nice
16:13<V453000>yeah I see it, the issue isn't a pause after the NML, but a pause before the NML would run. I'll try to solve it myself and then also do some search, or ask fuckers at work :P easiest solution usually
16:14<V453000>thank you though <3
16:15<andythenorth>seems windows-ish
16:15<andythenorth>my future :(
16:15<V453000>:D
16:16<V453000>I'll instead go and see if I can make a custom syntax highlighting for NML
16:16<V453000>just cause yes
16:16<V453000>I'm guessing not easily though
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16:16<andythenorth>planetmaker made one
16:16<V453000>for npp+ afaik
16:16<V453000>I'm using VS code like the cool kids now
16:17<V453000>I could reconsider that rather quickly though
16:17<V453000>the find and replace in VS code is atrocious
16:17<V453000>and npp has a chameleon
16:21<V453000>oh yeah I found the fact that VS code can do 3 columns where npp can do just 2
16:21<V453000>handy for full retard wide screen monitor
16:22<V453000>but with the imported files, they get generally shorter so that's less of an issue
16:22<andythenorth>yair, but does it have vertical column guides? o_O
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16:24<V453000>I guess
16:24<V453000>google says it does, I haven't used it
16:24<andythenorth>can't imagine python without them
16:24<V453000>sounds handy
16:24<V453000>yeah
16:24<andythenorth>other people don't seem to care, but eh
16:24<V453000>I understand that entirely, when you get many indents and shit, it gets weird quickly
16:25<Wolf01>I think I must to bed
16:25<Wolf01>'night
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16:32<andythenorth>peter1138: newgrf trees next? o_O
16:32<V453000>omg yes please
16:33<andythenorth>also reduces savegame size
16:33<andythenorth>allegedly
16:33*andythenorth plans how to use 64 industry cargos also
16:45<V453000>hmm, I kind of like how VS code highlights all the occurences of thing I double click in the scrollbar
16:45<V453000>now I have to use both or what? :D
16:46<andythenorth>dunno
16:46<andythenorth>anything like that I turn off or ignore
16:47<V453000>iz like though
16:49<andythenorth>why 8 graphical options for every mail car eh? o_O
16:49<andythenorth>why did i do that?
16:49<V453000>answer is yes
16:49<andythenorth>player me likes it
16:50<andythenorth>sprite drawing me hates it
16:50<andythenorth>fight club
16:51<V453000>:D
16:52<V453000>is similar to my decision of making ships have 9 loading stages
16:52<andythenorth>obviously regrettable
16:52<V453000>it's something that absolutely makes me NOT want to update them for FIRS3 cargoes :D
16:53<V453000>at the moment at least
16:53<V453000>especially knowing that FIRS4 is behind the corner
16:53<V453000>probably teaming up with FIRS5 there
16:56<andythenorth>FIRS9000
16:56<andythenorth>ultimate
16:57<andythenorth>you should just generate cargos :P
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17:05<andythenorth>bed
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18:18<Thedarkb-X40>Are roundabout junctions actually practical?
18:19<ST2>for F... sure! for OpenTTD... eh!
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18:35<Eddi|zuHause>unlikely
18:44<Thedarkb-X40>I saw someone in the subreddit recommend one to someone.
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>you mean someone was WRONG. on the INTERNET?!?
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