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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-05-30

---Logopened Wed May 30 00:00:12 2018
---Daychanged Wed May 30 2018
00:00<Eddi|zuHause>if i don't return, my system is now screwed up
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00:05<Eddi|zuHause>i guess it may live one more day
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03:23<andythenorth>o/
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04:04<Pikka>o/
04:05<V453000>o/
04:06<peter1138>no
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04:10<Pikka>why not?
04:15<andythenorth>it's Pikka and V453000 together
04:15<andythenorth>if DanMacK turns up, world ends
04:15<V453000>gg
04:16<andythenorth>what shall I put in FIRS 9000 Super Extreme then
04:16<andythenorth>?
04:16<andythenorth>got 64 cargos to use up
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04:28<peter1138>andythenorth, 128 cargos
04:29<peter1138>There's a callback result that houses use that limits the house set to using 32 cargo types.
04:29<peter1138>I think that's not a problem.
04:29<Pikka>hmmm
04:29<peter1138>They only want passengers and mail anyway, normally.
04:30<andythenorth>peter1138: 256 cargos, and 16 in/out per industry
04:30<peter1138>o_O
04:30<Pikka>more in/out would be nice
04:30<andythenorth>"nooooooooooooooooo"
04:31*andythenorth likes the limits
04:31<andythenorth>also station probblem
04:31<Pikka>well
04:31<peter1138>Add cargotype to platforms.
04:31<Pikka>what kind of station just piles cargo up on the platforms anyway? :P
04:31<peter1138>ikr
04:32*andythenorth bbl :)
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04:33<peter1138>https://previews.123rf.com/images/hxdyl/hxdyl1509/hxdyl150900119/45610231-industrial-port-with-containers.jpg
04:33<peter1138>Never!
04:33<peter1138>Ok, so port rather than station, but still.
04:33<peter1138>Also just containers
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06:28-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>something like: decide the cargo during the tileloop, instead of during callback resolution?
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>(so, store it in the tile)
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>could then add some fancy logic to distribute the cargos over the tiles, instead of picking the largest pile for all tiles
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06:46<andythenorth>such lol
06:46<andythenorth>all these station cargo sprites
06:46<andythenorth>that you only see if you're playing the game wrong :P
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06:47<Eddi|zuHause>well, ok, but the suggested solution there is to use monthly throughput instead of currently waiting cargo
06:47<peter1138>Hmm, town-name newgrfs are a bit clunky.
06:48<peter1138>Add the newgrf, then go into game settings, what?
06:48<andythenorth>peter1138: ikr :P
06:49<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what about using station rating for cargo? o_O
06:49<andythenorth>it's already available, and is conveniently a %, not an absolute value
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: doesn't sound right to me...
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06:50<andythenorth>ok try the problem from another angle
06:50<andythenorth>current spec uses 'little' and 'lots' thresholds
06:51<andythenorth>but they're absolute values, so what values to set for those? o_O
06:51<andythenorth>they vary so much by industry newgrf, industry random production at start, by play style, etc
06:52<andythenorth>ideally we find a metric that isn't absolute, but is some ratio
06:54<andythenorth>'monthly throughput' has same problem
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07:08<Eddi|zuHause>vague algorithm sketch: 1) during industry production, increase a cargo counter on the station, 2) during tileloop, deduct the "low" limit from the station's memory, and add it onto the tile memory, 3) the tile memory fades after [high/low] tileloop cycles
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>so, if the tileloop continuously transfers the full "low" amount to the tile, it will show the "high" sprite
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>industry production happens vaguely at the same rate as the tileloop
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07:11<Eddi|zuHause>if the tile memory ever falls below the "low" threshhold, it may switch cargos
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>high/low ~ 8 would equate to about one month
07:14<peter1138>how much storage space are you thinking per tile?
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>not entirely sure, but a cargo index, and some amount, simulate the fading by some fancy maths instead of a shifting storage
07:15<__ln__>let's say 1 gigabyte to be safe
07:16<peter1138>Cargo type is currently 5 bits as is, maybe more soon.
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>so 8 bit cargo, ? bit counter
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07:20<peter1138>So rail stations currently have 5 bits free.
07:20<andythenorth>well we increased map array right? o_O
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07:20<peter1138>Non-contiguous.
07:21<peter1138>andythenorth, yeah but you can't keep reusing the bits you added :p
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>there's, however, another piece missing: the station tiles don't necessarily react to the full set of cargos. so you could end up with the goods platform storing coal (displays nothing), the coal platform storing oil (displays nothing) and the oil platform storing passenges (displays nothing)
07:21<peter1138>You actually can do it per station part.
07:23<andythenorth>oh yeah station needs the railtype
07:23<peter1138>There's an off-map storage for station parts (used to identify which newgrf station was built) which could include a CargoType and amount.
07:23<andythenorth>it's not free bits :P
07:23<andythenorth>silly andythenorth
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>ok, i don't know enough of the details about station off-map storage
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07:37*andythenorth is worrying about cargo label inflation
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08:14*Pikka is worrying about locomotive names
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08:15<Pikka>andythenorth, should I use nicknames for the mainline diesels? Is "type 1, type 2" too hard for the average player to differentiate? Or do the power classes help them understand which loco is "better"?
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08:24<andythenorth>Pikka: I think it's all potato/potato
08:24<andythenorth>nicknames take more work
08:24<andythenorth>and I'm not sure they add any quality
08:24<andythenorth>what are you doing for the steam engines?
08:25<Pikka>perhaps. they just stand out a bit. but maybe that's a good thing.
08:25<Pikka>mixture of nicknames, wheel-arrangement names and class numbers
08:25<Pikka>https://pikka.users.tt-forums.net/wiki/index.php?title=UK_Revival_Set
08:27<peter1138>The 8K better be high-res.
08:27<Pikka>yes
08:29<andythenorth>"type 1" etc is a bit bland eh? o_O
08:29<andythenorth>but also fine
08:33<Pikka>yes
08:34<Pikka>also in the actual game they're "English Electric Type 1", "Sulzer Type 2" etc
08:36<andythenorth>just do that :)
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08:41*andythenorth should draw something
08:41<peter1138>Draw 64 cargos.
08:45<andythenorth>already done 68 http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/cargos.html
08:45<andythenorth>I'm way ahead
08:47*andythenorth should approve peter1138's PR
08:47<andythenorth>"probably fine"
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08:55<peter1138>heh
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10:09-!-Alberth is "purple" on @#openttd
10:09<@Alberth>hi hi
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10:10<andythenorth>hi Alberth
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10:11<@Alberth>o/ andy
10:11<@Alberth>o/ supermop work
10:13<supermop_work>yo
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10:16<andythenorth>Pikka: so I should add extra text in buy menu, right?
10:16<andythenorth>to explain what an engine is for? o_O
10:19<@Alberth>engine pulls wagons, wagons go zoeffff
10:21<@Alberth>more likely, people want realistic stats, like length down to the last nano meter
10:24<andythenorth>I will add super realistic details
10:24<andythenorth>for my fictional trains :)
10:25<@Alberth>cool :)
10:27<@Alberth>you can add a salesmans pitch :)
10:28<@Alberth>"great engine, moderately fast, but plenty of power for your coal lines"
10:28<V453000>Pikka: I like the green lights showing which train is good at what :)
10:29<@Alberth>and no universal green I take it? :)
10:29<V453000>:P
10:30<@Alberth>could be fun to add it, but make it so expensive to run, it's useless :p
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10:33<andythenorth>eh if we all use the same lights
10:33<andythenorth>we can make top trumps
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10:33<andythenorth>then we'll get sued :P
10:37<Pikka>I don't know about buy menu text
10:37<@Alberth>you'll only get twitters from some president, I think
10:38<Pikka>if people are confused by locos, can you unconfuse them in just a few words?
10:38<@Alberth>"buy this first" ?
10:39<andythenorth>"This engine likes the countryside"
10:39<andythenorth>"Use this engine by the sea"
10:39<andythenorth>"This engine likes red coaches"
10:40<@Alberth>"this engine loves hauling heavy loads"
10:40<peter1138>Your momma...
10:40<peter1138>Wait
10:41<andythenorth>wow round() exists in python
10:41<andythenorth>that's new
10:42<V453000>yez
10:42<@Alberth>that existed for a long time already, I think
10:42<andythenorth>I worked in python2.4 for a long time
10:42<andythenorth>still do in fact
10:42<andythenorth>I am used to many things being missing
10:43<LordAro>andythenorth: RHEL?
10:43<andythenorth>not exactly
10:43<LordAro>...oh no?
10:44<@Alberth>meh, 2.4 docs are not available any more
10:44<andythenorth>something that needed careful work to port to 2.7, due to using a very large third party framework that was tied to 2.4
10:44<andythenorth>very dull story
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11:04<peter1138>Hmm, last 2.4 release was 10 years ago.
11:05<peter1138>3.0 was 10 years ago too, but nobody used it then :p
11:06<LordAro>Alberth: they are, just hidden https://docs.python.org/2.4/
11:09<@Alberth>:o spiffy!
11:09<LordAro>it looks so bad!
11:09<@Alberth>:D
11:09<@Alberth>andythenorth: it existed in 2.4: https://docs.python.org/2.4/lib/built-in-funcs.html#l2h-62
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11:10<andythenorth>wonder why we didn't use it :P
11:10<andythenorth>we used some weird % string formatter, then converted it back if needing a float
11:10<andythenorth>probably just clueless
11:11<@Alberth>I don't see how you can have a float with n digits, unless you throw away bits
11:12<LordAro>iirc python's round() tends to do unexpected things anyway
11:12<andythenorth>Alberth: it's vague memories tbh :)
11:13<andythenorth>everything I did was inside http://restrictedpython.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
11:13<@Alberth>yep, the only sane form of n digits is to convert to string, and use that representation
11:13<@Alberth>or you do something like BCD
11:14<@Alberth>oh, restricted turing complete language eh? Python gave up on that idea :)
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11:16<andythenorth>it wasn't wise
11:20<@Alberth>it's a tempting idea :)
11:24*andythenorth drawing american horse
11:25<andythenorth>as brit horse is not even 50% complete
11:25<andythenorth>best to start a new one
11:26<@Alberth>new eco-friendly pixels are always nicer :)
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11:35<@Alberth>hopefully just looking for new pixels...
11:54<LANJesus>https://i.imgur.com/TmsMIGJg.jpg ?
12:00<@Alberth>likely
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12:21<_dp_>Alberth, what's the problem with having n digits in float? just don't expect it to be exactly the same
12:21<_dp_>and there is always decimal for that kind of stuff
12:22<@Alberth>there is no such thing as n digits in a float, there are some X bits precision, and the last one decides the precision
12:23<@Alberth>and indeed, if you want n digits, either use integers and divide by 10**n afterwards, or use some package for it
12:25<LordAro>@calc 0.1 + 0.2
12:25<@DorpsGek>LordAro: 0.3
12:25<LordAro>bleh
12:25<_dp_>Alberth, precision is decided by operations you do, if you want to work with n after the point digits just treat with 10**(-n-1) precision or smth like that
12:25<@Alberth>@calc 10-10*0.1
12:25<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 9
12:25<@Alberth>@calc 1-10*0.1
12:25<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 0
12:26<@Alberth>dropsgek is pretty smart with numbers :)
12:26<_dp_>@calc 1. / 10 * 3 == 3. / 10
12:26<@DorpsGek>_dp_: 0
12:27<@Alberth>:)
12:28<peter1138>Hi
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12:30<LordAro>https://github.com/Supybot/Supybot/blob/master/plugins/Math/plugin.py#L115 not *that* smart...
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12:31<LordAro>wait, that's not it...
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12:33<LordAro>nope, can't see where 0.3000... gets converted to 0.3
12:34<andythenorth>hey look it's peter1138
12:36<andythenorth>Pikka: so a GP35 is about same length as a 73 eh?
12:36<andythenorth>IRL
12:37<peter1138>It's not me.
12:39<andythenorth>it's just someone with a stack of branches
12:42<andythenorth>I like this https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-w/12/77/a1/4b/photo0jpg.jpg
12:43<andythenorth>probably not a good OTTD industry though :P
12:49<peter1138>Do it anyway.
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13:16<andythenorth>Welsh economy
13:16<andythenorth>Slate, Wool, Lamb, Coal, Lead
13:17<andythenorth>also 4/8 cabeese, unrelated to Welsh http://www.wplives.org/sn/images/1614.jpg
13:21<@Alberth>no no, 4/8 cabeese required to protect the lambs
13:22<@Alberth>nice :)
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13:24<Wolf01>o/
13:25<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
13:25<andythenorth>I wondered about a French / Dutch / Belgian economy
13:25<andythenorth>worried I might stumble into offensive stereotypes though :P
13:25<Wolf01>Try italian one
13:25<andythenorth>French economy is based on Cheese no?
13:26<andythenorth>Wolf01: Italy has an economy? :o
13:26<Wolf01>Yes, it's based on delocalizing to other countries
13:26<andythenorth>and shoes
13:27<Wolf01>And yesterday we lost the company which invented the "panettone"
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>you mean boots?
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>well, one single giant boot?
13:28<Wolf01>We are surviving on furniture production in these years :/
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>the ikea of the south?
13:32<Wolf01>Yep, but the quality is a bit different
13:35<@Alberth>o/
13:35<@Alberth>more cabinets for storing lego!
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13:59<andythenorth>quak
13:59<andythenorth>also bye pikka
14:00<frosch123>moo
14:00<Wolf01>https://www.packtpub.com/packt/offers/free-learning andythenorth, need one? :D
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14:01<Wolf01>Also quak
14:01<andythenorth>hmm
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14:53<andythenorth>so NARS Horse should be bigger than UKRS Horse? o_O https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-E_ex2RApXZQ/VQidvZO08vI/AAAAAAAAAk0/5V9Lk7QBxhY/s1024/Photo%25252020150317213303463.jpg
14:53<andythenorth>that's a NARS caboose next to UK caboose
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15:08<supermop_work>cupola is to look out over the top of the train
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15:10<andythenorth>until they made the cars bigger :P
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15:12<andythenorth>nice picture https://photos.smugmug.com/Trains/Trains/i-9scJnHM/0/74e1a89a/L/s_IMG_3416-L.jpg
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15:18<andythenorth>not convinced I can push NARS Horse 2px higher than UK Horse
15:31<andythenorth>hmm maybe it's fine
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17:37<Wolf01>'night
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17:41<peter1138>lo bob
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---Logclosed Thu May 31 00:00:34 2018