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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-06-04

---Logopened Mon Jun 04 00:00:39 2018
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04:49<peter1138>Ah, so, Microsoft Github.
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04:51<peter1138>https://www.change.org/p/microsoft-stop-microsoft-from-buying-github lol
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>that is surely going to convince anybody...
04:53<peter1138>ikr
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>you know what would be a great idea? migrating away from github :p
05:12<Flygon>Eddi|zuHause: I mean...
05:13<Flygon>gitlab's apparently struggling with the mass migration atm. :P
05:13<Flygon>Difficulty level is if Microsoft somehow figures out how to buy gitlab. :V
05:13<Eddi|zuHause>"Links antäuschen und rechts schießen"
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>(i'm convinced there's an english equivalent of football metaphors like that)
05:14<Flygon>Well, I know what what you typed wasn't "They shot an own goal".
05:15<Flygon>:P
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's making the opponent think you're shooting with the left foot, and then do it with the right one
05:16<Flygon>Oh!
05:16<Flygon>Uh...
05:16<Flygon>...
05:16<Flygon>A Feint?
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>possibly
05:29<Flygon>Yeah, I don't know the phrase either.
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05:49<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: hey, i suggested gitlab from the start :p
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09:11<peter1138>Hmm, I wonder if a whole ton of newgrf properties/callbacks should actually only ever be performed on vehicle creation.
09:15<LordAro>https://news.microsoft.com/2018/06/04/microsoft-to-acquire-github-for-7-5-billion/
09:38<peter1138>Indeed.
09:38<peter1138>Doesn't concern me.
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: that needs a more powerful purchase window
09:40<peter1138>True.
09:40<peter1138>Or properties could get "set" when changing the consist (in the depot)
09:41<peter1138>So, er, when they get split by shunting, because that's the thread I was looking at, nothing changes.
09:41<peter1138>But, uh... Hmmm.
09:41<peter1138>I should work on the promised patches before I get distracted :S
09:42<LordAro>ha
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09:55<andythenorth>ha ha, it is quite neat to watch :) https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1208032#p1208032
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09:58<m3henry>Yeah, I do like that a lot
09:58<V453000>:0 Microsoft to rule them all
10:01<peter1138>Whatever happened to running sounds...
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10:02<Eddi|zuHause>aw damn, the tiny-insects-that-crawl-into-monitors season has begun, and i can't have any open windows anymore
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: pikka decided they were a BAD FEATURE and removed them
10:02<peter1138>:(
10:02<peter1138>I miss them.
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't understand the reasoning either
10:02<peter1138>Perhaps we should've had separate volume controls for different things, like other games...
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10:04<Eddi|zuHause>what? modern UI?
10:05<andythenorth>volume per train? o_O
10:05<peter1138>Don't be silly.
10:06<peter1138>Master, UI, ambient, running?
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>volume per levelcrossing
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10:06<peter1138>HONK! HONK! volume
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>*dingdingding*
10:10<andythenorth>new menu for choosing the sound effect, per vehicle
10:11<andythenorth>or via ctrl-click :P
10:11<andythenorth>oh dear
10:11<andythenorth>and we only just switched to GitHub too :(
10:11<m3henry>tracker style interface for configuring sounds
10:11<andythenorth>now where will we move to?
10:12<m3henry>As I understand it, you have the rsources for self-hosting
10:12<m3henry>resources*
10:12<andythenorth>nope
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>err, the move to github was partly because of getting away from self-hosting
10:14<m3henry>Well bitbucket is popular
10:14<andythenorth>no free git
10:15<andythenorth>or if there is, I couldn't find it :)
10:18<LordAro>gitlab is nice
10:18<LordAro>as i said from the start :p
10:18<m3henry>At work we intended to host a GitLab server, but never got around to it. I personally hosted Gogs
10:20<andythenorth>LordAro: can you find the gitlab 'Community' edition on their site?
10:20<andythenorth>it's referenced as free for open source, but I can't find the plan
10:20<andythenorth>peter1138: I'll try building this later https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6803#issuecomment-394342819
10:20<andythenorth>ping me if I forget :P
10:21<peter1138>github is nice.
10:22<peter1138>Don't have any issue with the news myself.
10:22<andythenorth>tbh, microsoft are currently tyhe
10:22<andythenorth>the winning tech company
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's fine, while they are still in "embrace" mode
10:23<andythenorth>Apple have stacked it into the cliff, Google is Evil, and Amazon is Amazon
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>but it definitely won't stay this way
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>if trump doesn't burn everything down, microsoft will in 5 years...
10:24<LordAro>andythenorth: https://about.gitlab.com/installation/ ?
10:24<andythenorth>nah, that's not SaaS
10:24<LordAro>oh, you mean the site itself
10:25<andythenorth>gitlab SaaS looks commercial
10:25<andythenorth>the free version is relatively limited (fair enough)
10:25<LordAro>wait, what do you mean?
10:25<LordAro>https://gitlab.com/explore ?
10:26<andythenorth>https://about.gitlab.com/pricing/#gitlab-com
10:26<LordAro>yeah, see above
10:27<m3henry>Would you intend to move the building in to the CI?
10:28<peter1138>gitlab smells.
10:28*andythenorth is confused
10:29*LordAro is confused about andythenorth's confusion
10:30<andythenorth>is there a way to have a free license for an organisation on gitlab>
10:30<andythenorth>?
10:30<LordAro>isn't it just the same as github? you create one
10:30<m3henry>What about GNU Savannah?
10:31<peter1138>All the plans mention DevOps. Are they all hipsters?
10:31<LordAro>yes
10:31<LordAro>m3henry: booooo
10:31<peter1138>github is fine, it's not going anywhere yet :p
10:31<LordAro>also that
10:32<andythenorth>I just think we'll have more 'github is evil' rage quits from potential contributors
10:32<andythenorth>more than we already had
10:32<peter1138>Fuck them.
10:32<andythenorth>neatly put
10:32<andythenorth>ok moving on
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>tbh, i haven't seen any evidence that the other "cloud" storages are any less evil
10:33<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: we're supposed to host our own, in a bedrom, on ADSl
10:33<andythenorth>because that's provably not evil
10:33<andythenorth>right
10:34<andythenorth>and we should build our own hardware too
10:34<andythenorth>because government opens hardware shipments of servers and networking gear
10:34<andythenorth>and inserts invisible malware
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>that is definitely a thing that actually happened :p
10:35<andythenorth>it is
10:35<andythenorth>yes
10:35<andythenorth>unrelated, there is a great write up of Stuxnet recently
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>but it's not the primary reason why "closed" hardware is a bad idea
10:36<andythenorth>oh here we go https://www.langner.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/to-kill-a-centrifuge.pdf
10:36<andythenorth>it's very interesting
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>i'm half sure i heard a talk about that
10:38<andythenorth>BBL
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11:05<m3henry>G'day
11:05<@Alberth>we switch to github, en promotly microsoft caquires github????!!!
11:06<@Alberth>*acquires
11:06<@Alberth>and *promptly
11:06<m3henry>and *then ?
11:07<peter1138>We were obviously the deciding factor, yes.
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11:28<FLHerne>Hm
11:29<FLHerne>As pointed out by someone on Reddit, there are no Debian Stretch builds
11:29<FLHerne>Probably should be
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12:03<LordAro>FLHerne: there's no nightly at all at the moment
12:03<LordAro>nightlies*
12:03<LordAro>ubuntu builds are similarly broken due to the ICU issue
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12:56<peter1138>Yeah, we don't have *any* builds at the moment :p
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12:58<andythenorth>maybe that's a thing :P
13:01<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: is the idea something like: sandbox sub-consists, don't let newgrf read vars outside them?
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>something like that, yes
13:04<andythenorth>no more liveries based on lead engine eh :)
13:04<andythenorth>or would we just sandbox cb36 & friends?
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13:05<Eddi|zuHause>depends :p
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13:07<andythenorth>gets interesting if consist templates is ever a thing :P
13:07<andythenorth>I am -1 on all the shunting stuff for my games, but it's pretty neat
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>i'm just afraid it won't be nearly as flexible as the feature that exists in my head
13:08<andythenorth>somehow, consists templates are the same thing as shunting :P
13:08<andythenorth>there's just an implementation detail about splitting at stations :P
13:10<andythenorth>peter1138: dunno what I did wrong, but 6803 seems to compile for me
13:10<andythenorth>does this diff look right? https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ptg3woh3x/9urfv1/raw
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13:20<Wolf01>o/(
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13:39<andythenorth>hi Wolf01
13:39<andythenorth>and others
13:41<andythenorth>so my concerns here are (1) 64 types is untested (afaik), rest of NRT is pretty well tested (2) do we have to have a bunfight about 'is 64 a good idea' (can we not?) https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6811#issuecomment-394187977
13:45<Wolf01>The problem is: how 64 types will integrate with BGT?
13:49<andythenorth>wonderfully
13:50<andythenorth>also, with 64 types, can we have non-buildable types, to bridge the compatibility crap? o_O
13:50<Wolf01>That's another story, I already asked that saturday
13:51<Wolf01>https://developers.slashdot.org/story/18/06/04/1314247/microsoft-acquires-github-for-75b so, it's true then
13:53<andythenorth>it's not April 1
13:59<LANJesus>how long until search is powered by bing?
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14:44<peter1138>andythenorth, well, it's a diff, but... contains other stuff.
14:45<peter1138>andythenorth, if you did git diff master, then it would be reverting changes that are in master but not the branch.
14:45<peter1138>BGT?
14:46<Wolf01>ButGroundTypes
14:54<peter1138>Why would it not?
14:54<Wolf01>It shouldn't be a problem
14:55<peter1138>I mean, you're probably right, it's all unlikely to get in
14:55<+glx>Wolf01: there's even 2 links to blog posts when you visit github
14:56<Wolf01>Yeah, I noticed them after the usual RSS reading
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14:58<Tony>Anyone online?
14:59<nielsm>yes
15:04<andythenorth>peter1138: well 6803 does compile for me :P I am on OS X 10.12, CF claims to be 10.9
15:04<peter1138>Yes but everyone's too busy moaning about Github
15:04<andythenorth>just wondering if I'm wrong
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15:33<LANJesus>meh stfu about MSFT acquisition. there's nothing you can do except petition them to not be dicks about it
15:34<LANJesus>though if they are dicks, everyone will just flee to gitlab or something
15:39<peter1138>Quite
15:40<nielsm>I think it'll be more interesting how many of the internal developers on github stay
15:41<nielsm>if half the team behind it leaves or are moved elsewhere, that's more likely to cause trouble
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15:52<Neon>Don't know if you can help me with this. We have installed FIRS 3, just started a new server with EXTREME economy and some train trailers appear to be for different cargos. E.g. the oil tanker transports bauxite and the wood truck clay. We only have zbase and FIRS 3 installed. No other mods. Is there a possibility to switch cargo or something?
15:53<Wolf01>You need a trainset compatible with firs
15:53<Wolf01>Blame andythenorth
15:53<ST2>and RV's too
15:54<ST2>shhh, dnt blame andythenorth... or he'll break FIRS again :D
15:54<Neon>Do you happen to know a trainset working with FIRS?
15:54<V453000>NUTS :P
15:54<Wolf01>UKRS
15:55<Neon>Will we have to start a new game?
15:55<Wolf01>Yes
15:55<ST2>standard: OpenGFX+trains - or Iron Horse
15:57<Neon>Can you recommend me one? :P
15:58<Neon>I see that NUTS adds some crazy stuff?!
15:59<V453000>:d
15:59<V453000>NUTS master race
15:59<Wolf01>That is biased :>
16:00<V453000>impossible
16:00<V453000>100% objective, was on TV verified info
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16:00<Neon>OpenGFX+ is more near to TTD defaults?
16:01<Wolf01>Yes
16:02<andythenorth> V453000 fake news
16:02<V453000>propaganda 101
16:03<Neon>Thank you for your quick help. I'm happy this channel is still active.
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16:35<peter1138>Hmm
16:36<peter1138>identifier "SAFEGUARD_DO_NOT_USE_THIS_METHOD" is undefined
16:36<peter1138>I wonder what method that is, though.
16:43<peter1138>calloc
16:44<+glx>don't use it :)
16:45<peter1138>I'm not!
16:45<peter1138>I'm trying to compile PR 6798
16:46<peter1138>(Which also doesn't use it, but triggers the error)
16:47<michi_cc>What strange compiler are you using? MSVC 2017 seems fine :)
16:48<+glx>2015 is ok too
16:48<peter1138>I'm using MSVC 2017.
16:49<peter1138>Says it's compiling string.cpp
16:49<peter1138>But doesn't give a line number.
16:49<peter1138>Well, it does.
16:49<peter1138>File xlocale, line 697.
16:49<peter1138>c:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio\2017\Community\VC\Tools\MSVC\14.12.25827\include\xlocale
16:49<peter1138>o_O
16:50<Wolf01>It loaded base libraries?
16:50<Neon>How can we set what kind of cargo the train carriages can carry?
16:51<peter1138>Click on the refit button.
16:51<michi_cc>peter1138: That's not the current toolset, check if you're running version 15.7.3.
16:52<Neon>peter1138: Where is it? :(
16:52<+glx>in the vehicle view Neon
16:52<Neon>Got it.
16:53<peter1138>michi_cc, well, okay, I'll update. But it compiles fine before these changes o_O
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17:00<Wolf01>'night
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17:00<andythenorth>bye
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17:00<michi_cc>peter1138: Dos moving the include from string.cpp:599 to the top help?
17:00<peter1138>Can't test, it's upgrading :p
17:15<peter1138>c:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio\2017\Community\VC\Tools\MSVC\14.14.26428\include\xlocale
17:16<peter1138>Same error, in that version.
17:16<peter1138>Running 15.7.3 now.
17:17<peter1138>Yeah, if the include is before safeguards.h it'll compile.
17:17<peter1138>Which seems right.
17:22<michi_cc>I still have no idea how my Visual Studio compiles it just fine.
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17:24<peter1138>Also I get another error but that's DMUSIC related, not this PR.
17:25<peter1138>And that might be something to do with the useful package.
17:25<peter1138>Severity Code Description Project File Line Suppression State
17:25<peter1138>Warning C4005 'FACILITY_DIRECTMUSIC': macro redefinition (compiling source file ..\src\music\dmusic.cpp) openttd c:\users\peter\source\openttd essentials\shared\include\dmerror.h 12
17:25<peter1138>Ooops, that pasted badly :(
17:25<michi_cc>peter1138: Yeah, it shoul work if you just remove all directmusic files that come from ottd-useful. The rewritten code needs SDK headers only.
17:26<peter1138>It still compiles but yeah
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17:26<peter1138>I figured it was something like that.
17:27<michi_cc>The dmerror.h we ship is some crazy old version. We had an #undef for that macro to remove the warning, but the current SDK dmerror.h does not define the macro, so the #undef causes it to fail.
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17:28<peter1138>I think TrueBrain was working on just not needing that thing
17:34<ST2>daaaamn: peter1138 (#3862/a.b.c.d.7.6.5.5.0.6.5.4.6.7.d.9.1.f.e.8.d.d.5.6.0.b.8.0.1.0.0.2.ip6.arpa <<-- that's a really weird ons :D
17:37<peter1138>What's weird?
17:37<ST2>nothing, nothing :D
17:38<peter1138>I don't get to control what weird ass stuff my ISP does for rdns :p
17:38<ST2>I just needed some chats with my friendly search engine :D
17:38<ST2>imo, that's the perfect one - confuses the hell :D
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17:43<peter1138>Well it seems to has valid forward and reverse DNS, but I have no idea why they've done it like that o_O
17:43<peter1138>s/has/have/
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18:18<peter1138>michi_cc, all seems to work. Wonder what TrueBrain makes of it :p
18:19<peter1138>My exe is only 5.5MB now.
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>what? modern games must be at least 60GB and ship a 1.5GB patch every month
18:20<peter1138>ikr
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>at least they don't need a spec
18:21<peter1138>:D
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21:30<LANJesus>Eddi|zuHause: RIP dialup users
21:30<LANJesus>or satellite
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---Logclosed Tue Jun 05 00:00:41 2018