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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-06-09

---Logopened Sat Jun 09 00:00:46 2018
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11:54<andythenorth>in retrospect, changing length on cb36 is bonkers
11:54<andythenorth>if any property should be immutable, it's vehicle length
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12:01<nielsm>isn't it used for "generic multiple unit cars" and the like?
12:01<nielsm>e.g. in the 2cc in NML train set?
12:03<nielsm>(personally I'd rather have only fixed-length train sets, especially for MUs based on real-world material)
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12:12<planetmaker_>CB36 length changes are used in several trainsets. And I consider it unlikely that it changed in the last 12 months ;)
12:14<andythenorth>it's daft
12:14<andythenorth>it's a legacy of only 128 IDs or whatever in patch
12:19<nielsm>it's also a tool to keep the list of purchasable wagon types manageable from the player's perspective
12:20<nielsm>another solution would be to require the player to "refit" the generic cars to match the train type, and refuse to leave depot unless the car type matches train type
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12:23<stefino>hi all. is possible to refit train set due articulated switch? have a 3 wagon train in base and refit it into 4,5 or 6 wagon long train ?
12:24<nielsm>no, refit can't change the number of cars in a train
12:26<stefino>really? have a feeling that it is possible. So no way...have to build it part by part
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12:31<planetmaker_>stefino, well. Technically that's not possible. But actually a newgrf developer can make it so
12:31<planetmaker_>by introducing invisible wagons. And changing length upon refit
12:33<stefino>planetmaker_: umm umm...I think that it is easier to make 3 simple wagons (front,middle, rear) and to buy amount of middle wagons what I want.
12:33<planetmaker_>stefino, *that* is the LOT easier way to implement that, yes
12:34<planetmaker_>stefino, and you can even change the look of the wagons, depending on the overall train length, if I recall correctly. Or depending on their position in the train. But that requires no magic with lengths etc and refit
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12:38<andythenorth>you can change look based on position, easily
12:38<andythenorth>nielsm: refitting the generic cars doesn't help the shunting situation much
12:39<stefino>holly sh.t :D this means that my random switch will not work. Cause in articulated items I have depentent random switches and this is unreal to code between more "solo" trains
12:39<andythenorth>the whole 'cannot attach' situation needs to die for shunting
12:40<stefino>so the 3rd option is to code all sets individualy
12:41<stefino>it takes the same number of purchase list lines
12:41<nielsm>andythenorth, imo there needs to be a concept of "hard couplings" that can be done by a mechanic in a workshop, but not during regular running, it's not entirely uncommon for some MU-like designs afaik
12:42<andythenorth>eddi suggested similar
12:42<andythenorth>but that doesn't help the newgrf spec much
12:42<nielsm>unless you want to entirely prevent newgrf authors from making systems for player-determined-length MUs that logically shouldn't be able to separate during running
12:42<andythenorth>unless it's sandboxed, and changes the behaviour of some vars
12:43<andythenorth>if we sandbox a 'consist' and vehicles can't read outside it, it's fine
12:43<andythenorth>except it breaks grfs
12:44<andythenorth>due to history, grfs are fundamentally in conflict with shunting
12:44<andythenorth>grf world has taken the view that grf author controls the train, not the player
12:49<planetmaker_>oh, is shunting again a thing?
12:49<Wolf01>Shunting is always a thing
12:49<Wolf01>You need it when you can't do it, and it gets boring after 2 times when you can (must?) do it
12:51<nielsm>what is actually needed is for each train car type to have a variable for front-coupler type and back-coupler type (they can be different)
12:51<nielsm>and only cars with compatible couplers can attach
12:51<nielsm>and a coupler type can be hard or soft
12:52<nielsm>or you could even allow coupler types to specify how long it takes to perform the couple/decouple operation
12:53<nielsm>(modern coupling between EMUs might be really quick, attaching an old loco to old goods cards with westinghouse-type brake pipes requires a full brake test)
12:53<Wolf01> <andythenorth> due to history, grfs are fundamentally in conflict with shunting <- break it, isn't community whining about not being able to do new things because of retrocompatibility?
12:54<andythenorth>nielsm: nah, I think you solve wrong problem
12:55<andythenorth>what problem do you try to solve? :)
12:56<planetmaker_>When I ponder(ed) shunting I considered yet another newgrf flag, set at global level by the trainset: [x] allow shunting
12:56<nielsm>I'm just offering a solution in search of a problem!
12:57<planetmaker_>Then the vehicles defined there support it. That's it. If you set that flag, you are limited to a certain amount of things, but will not be able to do "magic" or "atrocities" (depending on view)
12:57<andythenorth>planetmaker: I think it has to be something like that
12:58<nielsm>although you might really want to prevent players from doing stuff that shouldn't be possible, like having an EMU passenger train pick up a line of coal cars, or having an old EMU model coujple to a new one that isn't compatible IRL
12:58<andythenorth>then 'can attach' needs extending to handle shunting
12:58<andythenorth>with messages for player
12:58<andythenorth>also it needs to account for conditional orders
12:59<nielsm>yep, news item "train attempted to couple with incompatible unit" and train pauses until you skip the join order or remove the offending cars and put something else instead
13:01<nielsm>and then you need to handle the case of two trains that were supposed to join but couldn't occupying the same platform in station, so they can't just leave in either direction
13:02<planetmaker_><nielsm> although you might really want to prevent players from doing stuff that shouldn't be possible, like having an EMU passenger train pick up a line of coal cars, or having an old EMU model coujple to a new one that isn't compatible IRL
13:02<planetmaker_>^^ I don't think you want to prevent players doing that
13:03<planetmaker_>well, maybe you. But I don't. The solution to that problem is simple: if you don't want that to happen, then don't order your vehicles to do so
13:03<planetmaker_>so every realism-based player can play happily. And everyone who doesn't care, can still do what they like
13:04<nielsm>then you make a mistake with your orders and end up "why the heck is train EMU hauling around the coal???"
13:04<nielsm>(and "what's that EMU doing at the coal mine?")
13:04<planetmaker_>so fix that mistake and you can continue to play happily
13:05<planetmaker_>basically you ask for the game to make decisions you like for everyone - irrespective if it suits them or not :)
13:06<virtualrandomnumber>what would happen if I ordered a train to pick up wagons at a station but the wagons in question aren't there?
13:06<planetmaker_>it's to me like lego: I can build realistic-looking things with the bricks. If I mis-place something, I dissasemble it, fix it and re-assemble
13:06<planetmaker_>But at the same time I could build my sci-fi universe with it.
13:09<andythenorth>nielsm: yes incompatible trains should stop
13:09<andythenorth>and report
13:10<andythenorth>like when they can't find a path and get stuck in a block
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13:13<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker_> ^^ I don't think you want to prevent players doing that <-- well, we do have the "can attach" callback for that, but that kinda assumes you're inside a depot
13:16<andythenorth>that needs extending for shunting
13:19<andythenorth>the key objective is to ensure that trains remain built as newgrf authors want
13:20<andythenorth>otherwise it's a spec violation
13:20<andythenorth>it's not up to the player to compose trains
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>well it is, but when the newgrf author wants to put restrictions on it, we should respect those
13:21<andythenorth>I would be trolling, but I'm not
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes more restrictions make for better gameplay
13:21<andythenorth>historical fact is that newgrf spec exists to let newgrf authors control player behaviour
13:21<andythenorth>unless we bump version
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13:25<nielsm>I think it's perfectly acceptable for a game mod to set rules for what's valid playing and what's not, but seeing how much of a sandbox TT games are it's also suggestable that mod authors provide a "free play" mode
13:26<andythenorth>that's not the spec :)
13:26<andythenorth>also we're boxed in on this
13:27<andythenorth>on the one hand it will be 'horrible devs won't implement shunting'
13:27<andythenorth>and if we do, multiple newgrf authors will rage quit
13:27<andythenorth>then it's 'horrible devs forced best contributors out'
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: but that's a discussion between the newgrf authors and their users, we're discussing here the appropriate foundations
13:33<andythenorth>I think shunting is probably a no-no currently
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13:35<andythenorth>unless newgrf vehicles are banned from shunting if the flag is not set
13:35<andythenorth>I guess
13:36<planetmaker_>^^ that is my very suggestion for how to tackle it @andythenorth
13:36<andythenorth>remember the engine pool disaster?
13:36<andythenorth>we shouldn't really have done engine pool
13:36<planetmaker_>because now we have unlimitted vehicles and sets?
13:37<andythenorth>no because it broke sets where authors assumed they were only grf
13:37<andythenorth>I remember it as very painful
13:37<andythenorth>we destroyed years of work remember?
13:37<andythenorth>community split
13:37<planetmaker_>oh, sure. yeah... but... I don't quite remember it as painful. As... it was easy to keep using one newgrf
13:38<andythenorth>but we *allowed* players to choose more than one
13:38<andythenorth>so trains could be mixed up
13:38<andythenorth>even as newgrf author didn't intend
13:38<planetmaker_>yes... I'm probably more engineer than artist. I consider that great. An artist horrible ;)
13:40<planetmaker_>So yes, it's rather easy to implement it as opt-in which is set globally for a NewGRF
13:40<planetmaker_>and then ... voila
13:41<planetmaker_>most NewGRFs are then likely quickly updated in ...12 months. And the rest is not maintained anymore
13:41<planetmaker_>Or are vapourware :P
13:43<andythenorth>flag does seem safest
13:43<andythenorth>like autorefit
13:43<andythenorth>then ban some behaviours
13:43<planetmaker_>yep. And stops all kind of anger and fears
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>i think that approach is too easy
13:45<planetmaker_>you mean it's too non-traditional and too uncontroversial?
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean you're ignoring issues that are perfectly valid
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>just on the grounds that you don't want to think about them
13:47<planetmaker_>uh. such as?
13:50<planetmaker_>Mind that neither andy nor me said that such a newgrf-global flag magically solves all problems. But it solves many social ones in the first place, and many which might result from [sprites not available / not specifically drawn / ...] being taken care of explicitly by the newgrf author
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14:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think flag is foundation, then the spec needs to do more
14:06<andythenorth>there is no getting around that authors don't want shunting, so need to be able to forbid it
14:07<andythenorth>and the forbidding needs to work for software we can't modify, i.e. existing grfs
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that many authors want no shunting at all
14:08<andythenorth>well, we know that some don't
14:08<andythenorth>I didn't mean to imply 'all authors' there
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>well, let's look at other examples: when we reworked flipping vehicles in depot, we identified some "trivial" cases where the NewGRF wasn't conflicting, and allowed flipping for those, all the other cases had to implement a special callback to work
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>my aim here would be a similar thing. all (or most of) the "unproblematic" cases should just work with shunting, and for the special cases, give the NewGRF authors the right tools to handle them
14:12<andythenorth>nah depot flip is a flag
14:12<andythenorth>otherwise no flip
14:12<andythenorth>actually we broke newgrf there and annoyed a lot of people
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>no, we broke a thing that never worked properly before either
14:13<andythenorth>not in the eyes of players or authors
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>because the non-8-units long vehicles had to have special offsets depending on whether it was flipped or not
14:13<andythenorth>it was terrible
14:13<andythenorth>it was the right thing to do
14:13<andythenorth>and the rage was only because there was an existing behaviour
14:13<andythenorth>there's no existing behaviour for shunting
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>i think the shunting operation should be attempted, and if callback results differ between before and after, it should throw an error message and skip the shunting order
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>also, i have no problem with disabling shunting if the engine has wagon override enabled
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>both things have to be communicated with the user
14:16<andythenorth>I think that is all good
14:16<andythenorth>my flag proposal is for newgrf authors who need to explictly ban shunting
14:17<andythenorth>for released newgrfs
14:17<andythenorth>it should be opt-in choice
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>i disagree
14:17<andythenorth>the choice is binary, opt-in, opt-out, I don't miss anything?
14:18<andythenorth>or you propose newgrf author can choose to handle a cb when shunting happens?
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the NewGRF needs some more details
14:19<andythenorth>yes but already released newgrfs?
14:19<andythenorth>we can't modify what's already out there
14:19<andythenorth>sorry, I just see that as fundamental
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>example: you have two ICE2 unites [head]-[wagon]*n-[steering] + [steering]-[wagon]*n-[head]
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>you would want to allow shunting between two heads, or two steering wagons, or mixed, but not between the wagons
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>or the case where you wouldn't want to put cargo wagons on such a unit
14:20<andythenorth>I think we solve different issues
14:21<andythenorth>I agree with your proposals, but you can't write new newgrf code for released grfs
14:21<andythenorth>they're already shipped
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>i think we have very many issues
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14:22<andythenorth>is the released grfs issue handled by running wagon-attach cb when shunting?
14:23<andythenorth>and respecting the result?
14:23<andythenorth>this is a social problem with authors, not with cb 36
14:23<andythenorth>cb 36 is different issue
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but i think "disallow shunting for all old GRFs" is not the right solution
14:24<andythenorth>fundamentally we have to respect "that engine can't run with that wagon" if authors require that
14:24<andythenorth>I wish we didn't, but eh
14:24<andythenorth>cat out of bag
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>i think we can adapt the wagon-attach-callback to run during shunting operations
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>and then refuse the shunting the same way as with the CB36-guard i proposed above
14:25<andythenorth>ok that's 2 issues solved
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>(the wagon-attach callback in itself is flawed as well, as it only asks A to allow B to attach, it doesn't ask B)
14:26<andythenorth>I never use it, because, why would you?
14:27<andythenorth>how does it work?
14:27*andythenorth -> spec
14:27<andythenorth>it was made to placate a canadian who massively destructively rage quit in the end anyway
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>both MB and George use it, i think
14:28<andythenorth>pikka did too
14:28<andythenorth>and V I think
14:28<andythenorth>ok so the issue is 'this engine may not haul wagon x'
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>i would be surprised if Snail doesn't
14:28<andythenorth>just respect the cb
14:29<andythenorth>if carriage A in newgrf B attaches to engine C in newgrf D, eh [shrug]
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>the typical way to circumvent wagon-attach-callback is to use the invisible engine as front engine. because of the before-mentioned "B doesn't get asked" flaw
14:32<andythenorth>ok so
14:32<andythenorth>- attachment check
14:32<andythenorth>- cb36 result validation
14:32<andythenorth>what else?
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>wagon override
14:32<andythenorth>I never understand wagon override :P
14:32<andythenorth>engine specifies liveries?
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14:33<Eddi|zuHause>original intention was to have T.I.M and AsiaStar livery wagons
14:33<nielsm>huh why did I get disconnected.... oh well
14:33<nielsm>been working on a little thing too:
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>i was also disconnected earlier
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14:37<nielsm>and then going from the title screen game to an almost blank 64x64 map:
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>not quite sure how to read that output
14:38<nielsm>long, medium, short term times taken to do various core parts of the game logic
14:38<nielsm>"overall" is based on the time between calls to the main game loop
14:39<nielsm>"gameloop times" is how long it takes to process all the game logic (pathfinding, towns and industry growth, etc)
14:39<nielsm>"drawing times" is how long it takes for the windowing system and blitter to produce the image to put on screen
14:39<nielsm>"video times" is how long it actually takes to put it on screen
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14:41<nielsm>those screenshots are taken from an unoptimized debug build, so everything is slow
14:42<nielsm>in an optimized x64 build everything is so fast most times just end up as 0.00 ms
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>try one of those old Coop games :p
14:43<nielsm>need to rush for some food now
14:50<snail_UES_>just got in now...
14:51<snail_UES_>I’ve read your discussion above, I’m sorry to say that changing a vehicle length through CB36 is the only alternative to having a huge purchase list :p
14:53<snail_UES_>ideally there should be a callback or something that returns the “original” engine a wagon was attached to when it left the depot
14:53<snail_UES_>that could be cached
14:53<snail_UES_>then, you could allow shunting upon different conditions, depending on what that “original” engine was
14:56<snail_UES_>something similar to the “can attach” callback. There could be a “can shunt”; this would decide which engine IDs could shunt that vehicle
14:56<snail_UES_>and this would work very well if we could identify the “original engine” this wagon left the depot with
14:57<andythenorth>snail_UES_: a huge purchase list is fine btw
14:57<andythenorth>but it's a side issue
14:57<snail_UES_>andythenorth: I beg to differ
14:58<andythenorth>irrespective of how you're using CB36, it has to not break anyway
14:58<snail_UES_>what has not to break?
14:59<snail_UES_>CB36 is used to change length and you can’t say it’s “wrong"...
14:59<andythenorth>I could solve your issue in the grf, there are only 8 lengths
14:59<andythenorth>you don't need a huge purchase list
14:59<snail_UES_>then, shunting would occur among the cases when length changes
14:59<andythenorth>but that doesn't solve shunting
14:59<snail_UES_>andythenorth: there is no “issue” in my grf
15:00<andythenorth>poor choice of words
15:00<snail_UES_>it’s just the concept of multiple similar vehicles cluttering the purchase list that makes no sense...
15:00<andythenorth>I don't mean 'bad issue'
15:00<andythenorth>I just mean 'you chose a route'
15:00<andythenorth>I could spend 6 weeks persuading you to change it, but still doesn't solve shunting :P
15:01<andythenorth>I think Eddi|zuHause solved the length issue anyway
15:01<snail_UES_>I think it’s more of a philosophical thing
15:01<snail_UES_>I’ve received feedback from my playtesters that they prefer automatic length change rather than a silly purchase list
15:01<andythenorth>running the cb and refusing to shunt if values change is probably a solution
15:01<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause convinced me about that one
15:02<andythenorth>and also running current 'can attach' cb as well
15:02<andythenorth>I think those 2 solve most of the newgrf problems
15:03*andythenorth -> gtg :)
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15:24<snail_UES_>just posted my proposal on the forum
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16:21<Wolf01> seem small
16:29<Arveen2>looking at the tiles it's rather big
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17:31<nielsm>the translatable strings system doesn't have a way to display float values, does it?
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17:44<frosch123>there is a fixed-point float number for the train length
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17:46<frosch123>nielsm: {DECIMAL}
17:47<nielsm>will fix my code to use that then
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17:58<nielsm>made a PR of it now
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---Logclosed Sun Jun 10 00:00:47 2018