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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-06-18

---Logopened Mon Jun 18 00:00:58 2018
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04:58<peter1138>or somesuch
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06:31<LordAro>peter1138: i don't believe you
06:31<LordAro>also zzzzz
06:31<peter1138>Isn't it just.
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08:03<peter1138>Maybe ships should be like triremes in Civilization, don't stray too far else it'll get lost at sea. CPU hog solved.
08:09<andythenorth>do it!
08:16<andythenorth>so also
08:16<andythenorth>what do people read on the internet?
08:17<debdog>irc chats?
08:18<peter1138>The internet is write-only.
08:19<peter1138>load average: 47.90, 49.36, 46.43
08:19<andythenorth>probably quote of the day
08:19<peter1138>That's less than optimal.
08:19<andythenorth>for the internet? :o
08:19<peter1138>It's my internet gateway here, so kind of?
08:23<peter1138>I might reboot it and wander off to the co-op.
08:24<andythenorth>reboot the co-op and wander off the internet
08:25<peter1138>load average: 3.25, 29.93, 40.18
08:25<peter1138>Hmm, well.
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09:37<supermop_work>cant figure out how to really marshal trains together with shunting
09:38<supermop_work>i mean it kind of works but it is quite clumsy
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09:44<supermop_work>long train enters a long platform from the south, and leaves half the wagons there - the train will have to leave to the north and the left rake will be at the souther end
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09:45<supermop_work>but then if a shunter brings more wagons from the south to couple on, the new train will be sticking out the platform
09:46<FLHerne>Have them come from the north instead?
09:46<FLHerne>Or couple, then push the whole rake into the platform, but that would be ugly
09:47<FLHerne>More-generally, why would you want to do that in particular?
09:47<supermop_work>to work around, you need either platforms like 1.5-2x the length of the full train, or such complex running around and head shunts that you use up so much time you have no savings from decoupling
09:47<FLHerne>Given the ability to divide trains, I think I'd mostly want to shorten trains going in one direction, and then add those carriages onto the return services
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09:49<FLHerne>In which case you just have a shunter come in from the north, pull the carriages into a siding, then propel them onto the north end of the next southbound service
09:49<supermop_work>FLHerne: if you are bring extra wagons from the north, the full train will have to leave to the north, which is unlikely if it came from the south as a full train to begin with
09:49<supermop_work>also the shunting patch doesn't support pushing yet
09:49<supermop_work>which would help a lot
09:49<FLHerne>No, the train engine stays on the south end
09:49<FLHerne>Wait, there's a real patch for this?! :o
09:49<supermop_work>currently it works well for head shunts/ running round a rake
09:50<FLHerne>Clearly I missed something
09:50<supermop_work>and works ok for splitting trains,
09:50<supermop_work>but doesn't work well for recombining them
09:51<supermop_work>but for very long trains/ or where you have many rakes of wagons loading and want only one locomotive to pull them once full
09:52<supermop_work>you end up loosing so much time in running around and space from sidings, that you end up worse off than if every train had it's own locomotive like in trunk
09:52<supermop_work>mostly it is just cute to watch them running about
09:55<supermop_work>platform end] [pbs sig>] [turnout for siding] [<pbs sig] [siding w/waypoint]
09:55<FLHerne>Given OTTD's economics and weird scale, any of this complexity only makes sense for 'realism' or just fun
09:55<supermop_work>is 4 tiles for one platform, 3 if you skip the pbs on the siding
09:55<FLHerne>Since the majority of trainsets have passed that point already, I'm not sure that's a real problem
09:56<supermop_work>the more platforms or entry/exit tracks you add, the longer that throat has to be
09:56<FLHerne>Especially since the 'optimal' way to play OTTD seems to be airports at opposed corners of the map and spam as many planes as one can build
09:56<FLHerne>Which patch is this?
09:57<FLHerne>I hadn't heard of it at all; not reading the forums recently
09:57<supermop_work>and the longer the train, the longer it takes a locomotive to run from the headshunt back to the siding at the station throat
09:57<supermop_work>blocking a track in the process
09:58<supermop_work>decoupling patch in the first page of development section
09:59<supermop_work>currently id doesn't support multiple units, which would be the easiest for splitting passenger trains
09:59<FLHerne> is what I wanted, but won't work without propelling
09:59<FLHerne>Wow, I need to see what can be done with that
10:00<supermop_work>i think a low speed shunting operation could be added, but its just one guy working on it right now
10:02<andythenorth>isn't shunting just for eye candy?
10:02<andythenorth>and changing engine
10:03<andythenorth>I didn't try it, and I've bailed out of forums
10:03<andythenorth>I watched the video, looked nice
10:05<peter1138>It's kinda pointless micromanagement.
10:05<peter1138>Remember when we had patches to manually control trains? Wot larks.
10:06<peter1138>(It was only ever trains, nobody seems interested in manually controlling road vehicles, ships or planes...)
10:08<LordAro>isn't pointless micromanagement the point?
10:13<andythenorth>isn't the point to get as many nice PRs done as we can? :P
10:13<peter1138>Apparently not!
10:13<andythenorth>be interesting to compare git commits last 3 months, compared to same period previous years
10:13<andythenorth>someone make a chart :P
10:14<andythenorth>so did you all quit forums a long time before me?
10:14<FLHerne>I didn't intentionally quit, I just stopped reading them :P
10:14<andythenorth>I only just realised how bad they are
10:15<FLHerne>(mostly because I hardly played OTTD for a couple of years)
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10:19<@Alberth>hi hi
10:20<LordAro>what FLHerne said
10:21<supermop_work>andythenorth: shunting is for giving life to cute little 08s
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10:32<supermop_work>that's all i ask of it
10:32<supermop_work>today it is forecast to be 97 sausages
10:36<Arveen>that's almost 100 sausages
10:39<Arveen>are 100 sausages = 1 kiloSausage ?
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10:42<@Rubidium>isn't is common knowledge that it'd be a hectosausage?
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11:17<supermop_work>maybe its a logarithmic scale
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11:31<ANIKHTOS>hello to all have a nice day
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11:55<LANJesus>what's that in Freedom?
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12:04<Flygon>LANJesus, in this room, we measure our sausages in Bunnings Snags.
12:05<LANJesus>what no smoots?
12:05<Flygon>Only Bunnings Snags.
12:05<Flygon>Shhiiit. I so want a Bunnings Snag right now.
12:05<Flygon>But it's 2:05AM and they're closed atm.
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12:24<nielsm> getting slightly more interesting...
12:37<peter1138>nielsm, try it with this savegame...
12:39<planetmaker_>I can offer a few crazy games :P
12:39<nielsm>would I have to remove that 5k limit myself too, then? :)
12:40<nielsm>just making a release build first, don't think a debug build is controllable here ;)
12:42<nielsm>grr those ottdc saves need newgrfs not on bananas
12:45<nielsm>ah one loaded
12:45<@Alberth> they have a grfpack
12:46<nielsm>legend: Y axis subdivisions are 10 ms intervals, X axis subdivision is 1 second intervals
12:46<planetmaker_>with those it should be able to load all. Not always exactly matching, but at least compatible
12:50<nielsm>TrueBrain, I think this is closer to what you're looking for?
12:53<@Alberth>nice movie :)
12:53<@Alberth>not sure the numbers are useful, it's so fast, you can't even read it
12:54<@Alberth>especially the red one, as it doesn't have a lot of contrast
12:54<nielsm>the video encoding makes red really bad, it's much more readable on the actual screen
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12:58<nielsm>hmm how do plurals in the strings work again...
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13:03<LordAro>mostly mahgic
13:03<@Alberth>passenger{P "" s}
13:06<peter1138>nielsm, nah, that one I posted loads without changes.
13:06<peter1138>That video highlights that maybe some stuff could be spread out better.
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13:18<peter1138>I still find the graphs weird as they are not time-based.
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13:18<peter1138>ms used per second might be a more meaningful metric.
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13:18<nielsm>"not time based"?
13:19<nielsm>each data point graphed is literally how much time spent inside each routine
13:19<peter1138>Yes, but the axis is not time.
13:19<nielsm>it is
13:20<nielsm>I'm adding labels atm
13:20<peter1138>Did I pull too early? :p
13:20<nielsm>yeah I haven't pushed this yes
13:20<Wolf01>Oh, nice you are playing with graphs too :D
13:22<Wolf01>BTW, I'm used with plotting in the other direction
13:22<nielsm>lol now this is horrible
13:23<nielsm>tried that same ottdc save I took video with before, but in a debug build
13:23<Wolf01>Debug kills performance a lot :P
13:23<nielsm>game loop times are so bad they are outside the graphing range
13:24<Wolf01>Are you sure you can't flip the graphs horizontally?
13:24<nielsm>def. possible
13:24<Wolf01>Because with labels now I find it really weird
13:26<ANIKHTOS>thats a big station
13:27<nielsm>from a much smaller save of my own ;)
13:28<nielsm>actually, drawing the graphs the other direction will be a bit annoying, since I don't get free clipping on the far end
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13:34<Wolf01>Yeah, better, now the time flows in the right direction :P
13:36<@Alberth>phew :)
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13:36<nielsm>noooo why must you rebuild everything just because I modified the text of two strings in english.txt
13:37<nielsm>I didn't add or remove any of the string names!
13:37<LANJesus>because BUILD SYSTEM.
13:37<LANJesus>is it probably just relinking everything?
13:37<LANJesus>or does the system not use caching
13:37<nielsm>nope, really rebuilding every single .cpp files including strings.h
13:37<nielsm>it detects the file has changed
13:38<Wolf01>Next patch: build system should detect the addition/deletion of strings to rebuild
13:38<nielsm>yeah need to make it handle RTL languages correctly...
13:40<LordAro>it's probably actually just rebuilding the files that pull in strings.h
13:40<nielsm>and the HUEG font of japanese makes it sad
13:40<LordAro>which is basically all of them anyway
13:40<LANJesus>LordAro: isn't that just about all of them? heh yeah.
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13:42<nielsm>peter1138, pushed the improved graphs now :)
13:44<nielsm>bbl, food
13:45<ANIKHTOS>okey i mamke a varible in the settign and now i am tryign to access it i place it in the GameCreationSettings
13:45<ANIKHTOS>GameCreationSettings *_slowD2 = &GameCreationSettings ;
13:45<ANIKHTOS>will this get me there or not??
13:46<LordAro>not even slightly
13:46<ANIKHTOS>i need to create a pointer
13:46<ANIKHTOS>but i fail at creatign it coreclty
13:49<ANIKHTOS> i try to follow the instructions from the lessons there
13:49<ANIKHTOS>is nto the case i am trying to do??
13:49<ANIKHTOS>access something in the GameCreationSettings struct??
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13:56<ANIKHTOS>lordare can you give me a hint?? how i can do it??
13:56<@Alberth>you may want to read about the difference between classes/structs and instances of them (ie objects)
13:57<@Alberth> &GameCreationSettings has no meaning to me
13:57<@Alberth>the address of a type???
13:59<ANIKHTOS>well accordign to the turorial it shoudl give the memory adress
13:59<@Alberth>a type has no memory address
14:01<@Alberth>int i; &int doesn't exist, &i does
14:01<ANIKHTOS>we have the struct CameCreationSettings
14:01<ANIKHTOS>which has members
14:02<ANIKHTOS>the members do have memory address right??
14:02<@Alberth>no, not in a type, you have to make an instance of the struct
14:02<@Alberth>that instance has an address, and thus the members in the instance have it too
14:03<ANIKHTOS>okey so first i need to make an instanc eof gamecreationsettings
14:03<ANIKHTOS>and then i can mke the pointer to link to my variable??
14:03<@Alberth>what variable do you want to link to?
14:04<@Alberth>any reason why instance.member wouldn't work?
14:06<ANIKHTOS>well you seid look the code and see how other done it and the example i found was with a pointer
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14:10<@Alberth>"other code did it" isn't a terribly convincing reason :)
14:11<@Alberth>"why do you shoot people?" "oh, he does it too" :D
14:14<ANIKHTOS>i look what other do so i can be somehow consistent in the syle of coding
14:14<ANIKHTOS>and also spped up the learning
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14:18<ANIKHTOS>okey so i start form here GameCreationSettings _slowD2;
14:18<ANIKHTOS>crete a member called _slowD2
14:19<LANJesus>most coding style things i do is cargo cult, whatever cult i'm in...
14:21<ANIKHTOS>well lanjesus you are your own cult the cult of lan :P
14:21<LANJesus>i was agreeing with you, somewhat. at least for coding style. now language usage is a different thing
14:22<Wolf01>Until you stay away from the machine cult you are safe ;)
14:22<ANIKHTOS>i know lanjesus
14:22<ANIKHTOS>too many compile errors i am getting frustrated
14:29<@Alberth>you create a variable, an instance of the structure
14:30<@Alberth>and yes, c++ assumes you know what you're doing, it's not helpful or trying to make things simple
14:31<@Alberth>and openttd is not a simple program
14:33<Cthulhux>c++ is klingon for "i can't do c".
14:33<ANIKHTOS>GameCreationSettings _slowD2; this will create an instance??
14:37<@Alberth>it does, it creates a variable _slowD2 with enough room for holding all data in GameCreatinSettings
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14:38<@Alberth>Cthulhux: nah, using c for shooting oneself in the foot was too easy to avoid :p
14:47<ANIKHTOS>_slowD2.slow now has a value?? a default value??
14:48<ANIKHTOS>slow is what i add in the stric of the GameCreationSettings
14:49<@Alberth>unless you have added a constructor that initializes the variable, it has a random value
14:50<@Alberth>ie whatever was in that memory at the time the variable was created
14:55<ANIKHTOS>i am doign cyrcles i get closer but at same type i am still far away
14:56<nielsm>I think you're overcomplicating things because you're misunderstanding what's required
14:56<nielsm>in my recent experimental cargotiles patch I add two settings
14:56<nielsm>here's the change to settings.ini where they are added:
14:57<nielsm>the change where they're added to an existing struct appropriate to their purpose:
14:57<LANJesus>and openttd's code is r'lyehian for "omg why did we port this from x86 machine code"
14:57<nielsm>the change where they're added to the settings GUI:
14:58<LordAro>LANJesus: most of it isn't quite that bad :p
14:58<nielsm>the change where they get values assigned if the savegame is being loaded from an old version:
14:58<LordAro>not anymore, anyway
14:58<nielsm>and an example of a line using one of the new settings:
14:58<LordAro>ORCT2 on the other hand...
14:59<LordAro>i think they've worked out names for all the variables at this point
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15:00<LANJesus>i'm too afraid to 'optimize' anything in openttd for fear of breaking some esoteric platform which i don't have access
15:00<LordAro>windows, linux & osx
15:01<LordAro>pretty much everything else is up to any maintainers
15:01<LordAro>anything specific will be documented as such
15:02<ANIKHTOS>i doen the changes in the files
15:02<ANIKHTOS> have the new setting added
15:02<nielsm>you def. need to set up a machine running os/2, both as a buildbot, but also one where selected people can get a VNC connection (or similar) to and play the builds for testing!
15:02<ANIKHTOS>i just do nto knwo how to access it
15:03<LordAro>nielsm: sounds like you're volunteering
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15:04<nielsm>ANIKHTOS, _settings_game.game_creation.* and _settings_newgame.game_creation.* are your global GameCreationSettings instances
15:05<nielsm>declared in settings_type.h
15:07<ANIKHTOS>so i do not need to make an instance i can use the _settings_game.game_creation.* ??
15:07<nielsm>not only do you not need to make your own instance, doing so would be straight up wrong
15:07<nielsm>because the globals are where the actual, valid values are loaded into and saved back from
15:08<ANIKHTOS>_settings_game.game_creation.slow is the value of my varialbe??
15:08<nielsm>for the currently active game
15:09<nielsm>and _settings_newgame.game_creation.slow is the setting that would be used if the player starts a new game right now
15:10<nielsm>the values from _settings_game get stored into savegames, the values from _settings_newgame get stored into openttd.cfg
15:10<ANIKHTOS>so when i load a game it uses the _settings_game.game_creation.* but when i star a new game it sues the _settings_game.game_creation.*
15:10<peter1138>It's not a detail you need to care about.
15:10<LordAro>glx: so it would seem that msys2 doesn't have __pragma, only _Pragma
15:10<peter1138>The default value comes from what you placed in the definition.
15:10<nielsm>it's automatic that when the player starts a new game, _settings_newgame is copied into _settings_game
15:11<nielsm>so the newgame setting becomes valid for the new game
15:11<nielsm>you don't need to do anything for that to happen
15:11<peter1138>Classic case of the X-Y problem here :-)
15:11<nielsm>just use _settings_game.* for all your logic that needs the value
15:13<+glx>LordAro: __pragma is specific to MSVC
15:13<nielsm>also, you should really find space and time to install visual studio and use that instead of mingw, you get dramatically better tools for navigating and understanding the existing code
15:14<@Alberth>understanding what the code says is not improving with better tools :p
15:15<nielsm>being able to easily look up the definitions of existing things IMO makes it easier to understand their purpose and usage
15:15<nielsm>and doing a "find symbol" on something like GameCreationSettings makes it easier to see how it gets used in existing code
15:15<+glx>LordAro: and MSVC will not like _Pragma I think
15:16<ANIKHTOS>thank you very much nielsm
15:16<nielsm>_Pragma looks like a "modern C"-ism, and yeah MSVC won't like that
15:16<LordAro>glx: _Pragma is in C99...
15:16<@Alberth>if you don't understand the difference between Blah x and Blah *x, better tools won't fix that
15:16<LordAro>not exactly "modern"
15:16<+glx>_Pragma is gcc __pragma :)
15:16<nielsm>I call everything past C89 "modern" ;)
15:17<nielsm>(because so much C code still lives in that past)
15:17<@Alberth>still programming in C89, every now and then :(
15:17<LordAro>glx: nope, definitely C standard
15:17<+michi_cc>LordAro: MSVC only supports the part of C99 needed for C++.
15:17<nielsm>_Pragma is not in any C++ standard afaik
15:17<LordAro>c++11 seems to have adopted it
15:17<+glx>and usually if MSVC added something before it appeared in the standard it won't touch it
15:18<nielsm>doesn't C++ prefer [[attributes]] for things, in contrast to C99-and-later _Attributes
15:19<LordAro>it does, but it likes backwards compatibility with C as well
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15:19<LordAro>yeah, cpp.pragma.op
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15:21<LordAro>afaict MSVC does not support _Pragma
15:21<LordAro>because they suck
15:22<nielsm>but I think it has __declspec(pragma(...)) or something like that?
15:22<+glx>they don't need it, they have __pragma ;)
15:23<+glx>and that's why we have stdafx.h
15:24<LordAro>glx: mm...
15:25<ANIKHTOS>but now the code runs a bit strange
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15:33<ANIKHTOS>it works now you can change the factor of how slow it is from inside playing
15:34<ANIKHTOS>1 uestion do you want the autosave to be at normal months or slow months?? now it is at normal months
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15:41<nielsm>I want the same number of autosaves to happen within an hour of real time playing regardless of the slowing factor
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15:44<ANIKHTOS>so you want the normal month autosave which will mena you willl have N facor autosave sin a slow month
15:44<LordAro>right, that's everything except freetype working with msys2
15:47<nielsm>hmm, the company graphs are actually drawn the same even in RTL languages
15:47<nielsm>is that just because nobody has cared enough to mirror them?
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15:52<ANIKHTOS>in the game down in the screen where you see the date the news and your money
15:52<ANIKHTOS>in which file they are?? i want to change the date display to show the normal days passign as hours
15:52<+glx>we call it status bar
15:53<nielsm>since it's called the status bar
15:53<ANIKHTOS>thank you booth
15:53<ANIKHTOS>well i did not know how the game was calling it
15:54<+glx>it's called the same in many applications
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16:00<@Alberth>nielsm: maybe nobody thought about it?
16:01<LordAro>so apparently the solution to building with a static freetype is to append -lfreetype to the end of the ldflags (after -lharfbuzz)
16:01<LordAro>despite -lfreetype already being in the list, but before -lharfbuzz
16:02<+glx>why harfbuzz ?
16:03<LordAro>freetype pulls it in when specifying --static with pkg-config
16:03<LordAro>(along with graphite2, glib-2.0 and all sorts of other fun stuff)
16:04<LordAro>i know freetype & harfbuzz do have some sort of circular dependency with each other
16:05<+glx>I just have -lfreetype
16:06<LordAro>with `pkg-config --libs freetype2` yes
16:06<LordAro>`pkg-config --static --libs freetype2` does other stuff
16:06<+glx>D:\developpement\GitHub\OpenTTD [master ≡]> pkg-config --static --libs freetype2
16:06<+glx>-Ld:/mingw/lib -lfreetype
16:06<LordAro>well my linux system does the same
16:07<+glx>but I think I built freetype myself
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16:13<+glx>I built almost all libs
16:13<+glx>because most of them are not available in mingw-get
16:13<LordAro>well that was the way with the old style
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16:19<nielsm>yay got the graphs scaling properly too, so I can make them handle larger font sizes properly
16:23<ANIKHTOS>nice nielsm
16:26<LANJesus>nielsm: will you be indicating FPS on the chart also? it feels weird having rates one place and duration another
16:27<nielsm>FPS is a bit strange to graph like this, since it's generally an aggregate value over a range of measurements
16:27<nielsm>so more like a moving average
16:27<LANJesus>do you have a branch on github?
16:28<nielsm>pushing this in a moment
16:28<LANJesus>cool : )
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16:29<LANJesus>the game itself has an inherent max framerate?
16:29<nielsm>normal rate is 30 milliseconds per tick
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16:29<LANJesus>are graphics rendered once per tick?
16:29<nielsm>enabling "fast forward" removes that restriction and runs ticks as fast as possible
16:29<LordAro>glx: have an PR
16:29<nielsm>yes, currently
16:30<LANJesus>i'm a bit ignorant when it comes to openttd internals
16:30<LANJesus>i only recently hacked on the windows 10 mouse glitch
16:30<nielsm>I don't think the game supports simulating a frame and not rendering it
16:30<LANJesus>but that got resolved officially ; D
16:31<LANJesus>nielsm: hmm, i wonder what dedicated servers do ; )
16:31<nielsm>they render to nowhere!
16:31<LANJesus>ha. okay
16:31<nielsm>actually, I haven't checked
16:31<nielsm>there is a null video output
16:31<LANJesus>it'd be funny if the sprite manipulations are still carried out
16:31<nielsm>but the framebuffer rendering (blitter) is separate from that
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16:42<nielsm>well, I think I figured out why there's regular spikes in the game loop times for this one ottdc save:
16:42<nielsm>(I hope it shows in the video despite bad encoding)
16:43<nielsm>it matches perfectly with the "central timer" logic train :)
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17:19<LANJesus>none of your videos play for me nielsm
17:19<LANJesus>oh weird. works in firefox, not chrome
17:20<LANJesus>that video quality is pretty decent
17:21<ANIKHTOS>in opera not work
17:22<LANJesus>edge says invalid source
17:23<LordAro>needs to be https to work for me, in chrome
17:24<LANJesus>whoa that's weird as hell. same for me, also in edge
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17:31<LordAro>"Refused to load media from '' because it violates the following Content Security Policy directive: "default-src https:". Note that 'media-src' was not explicitly set, so 'default-src' is used as a fallback."
17:31<LordAro>is what dev console tells me
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17:32<nielsm>I don't know if the host supports https
17:32<nielsm>slightly odd it won't fetch video from it
17:32<LordAro>changing to https works fine
17:33<LordAro>tells you perfectly what's wrong :p
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17:50<Eddi|zuHause>so your browser has a "https only" policy, but doesn't autoreplace "http" with "https"?
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20:32<ANIKHTOS>hello snail
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21:46<ANIKHTOS>i worte some code it compiled but the exe is not workign i get an error no available language packs
21:46<ANIKHTOS>what i mess up??
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22:05<+glx>you must be in /bin to run it
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22:19<ANIKHTOS>the code is goign back forth change files its hard to follow it
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22:22<ANIKHTOS>i am looking the code in status bar to see how it format the date from there i went to english.txt the language form there i went to strings.cpp
22:22<ANIKHTOS>its in there that the game format the date to be displayed right??
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22:52<ANIKHTOS>getting closer :-)
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23:25<ANIKHTOS>almostt there
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---Logclosed Tue Jun 19 00:00:00 2018