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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-06-20

---Logopened Wed Jun 20 00:00:01 2018
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04:24<andythenorth>I like this github thing
04:24<andythenorth>exciting blue dots every morning
04:27<reldred>It's certainly made it a lot easier to track projects I'm interested in.
04:54<peter1138>And for Microsoft too LOLOL </obligatory pointless antimicrosoft viewpoint>
04:54<@orudge>hey, it's reldred
04:54<peter1138>It is.
04:55<reldred>what? WHERE?
04:55<@orudge>It's like 2005 all over again in here these days
04:55<reldred>Yeah no kidding
04:55<peter1138>Wait, I'm no longer a dev? :(
04:55<reldred>It's taken me thirteen years but I've finally setup ZNC
04:56<reldred>I'm mostly over in Freenode these days but I figured I'd poke my head back in here as well.
04:56<reldred>How's life treating you orudge?
04:56<@orudge>Fine enough, keeping busy as always!
04:56<@orudge>Two little ones on the go these days
04:57<reldred>Back in the UK or setup in the US permanantly now?
04:57<@orudge>(well, if 8 still counts as little)
04:57<@orudge>Back in the UK
04:57<reldred>Wow, eight years old
04:57<reldred>That's nuts
04:57<@orudge>And yourself?
04:57<reldred>Eh, surviving.
04:58<reldred>Been spending the last ten years or so working in IT/telco stuff
04:58<reldred>Still in australia, no spawnlings.
04:59<reldred>Nothing terribly exciting :)
05:08<Eddi|zuHause>ok, if it's 2005 again i must leave this channel...
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05:12<peter1138>See, I follow/stalk reldred on twitter so it seems like he was already here ;p
05:13<reldred>you do?
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>i honestly don't remember seeing this name before
05:14<reldred>Formerly Aegir,
05:14<reldred>responsible for a bunch of NewStations grf;s
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>ah, that sounds a bit more familiar
05:15<reldred>I coded a few cities sets as well
05:15<reldred>started lots of brawls
05:15<reldred>usually over in #tycoon I behaved myself here
05:15<reldred>ran a private openttd server with a bunch of pre-release .grf's
05:15<peter1138>Yeah, that channel certainly had... fun, in its time.
05:16<reldred>Generally belligerant
05:17<LordAro>the irc way
05:17<reldred>Not just IRC, I was a belligerent prick on the forums as well.
05:18<reldred>Mostly just didn't like being told what to do, or how to run my projects.
05:18<peter1138>Hmm, Royal Albert Hall is a million miles by train/tube ;(
05:18<reldred>peter1138, twitter handle?
05:19<peter1138>Very rare that I post anything though.
05:19<reldred>yup, just found you :)
05:19<reldred>Yeah, no kidding, probably why I didn't notice you.
05:19<andythenorth>it's aegir!
05:19<reldred>I mostly follow infosec stuff on twitter
05:20<peter1138>Yeah, there was quite a bit of common stuff.
05:22<reldred> andythenorth guilty
05:24<reldred>I might have some graphics for you at some point andythenorth, I just need to figure out what I'm actually allowed to release.
05:25<reldred>because I can absolutely not be bothered getting back into grf coding again, even in nml
05:25<reldred>but I do have a pile of sprites
05:26<peter1138>Hmm, do I go by train, and worry about getting back to the station in time, or just take the car and not give a shit...
05:27<peter1138>Or, lol, ride the bike.
05:28<LordAro>ride the bike all the way
05:31<peter1138>problem is it's about 50 miles, and starting that at 11pm is a bit daunting.
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05:35<reldred>that's a bit of a hike
05:39<@Rubidium>peter1138: just think about doing a 10 mile bike run at 11pm, then do the remaining 40 the next day ;)
05:41<peter1138>Hmm, actually, maybe a Boris Bike would work.
05:44<andythenorth>I rode a Boris Bike once
05:44<andythenorth>like a sponge
05:44<peter1138>Just from the station to the venue. Doesn't need to be good :p
05:44<andythenorth>oh yes that
05:45<peter1138>Saves 40 minutes faffing about on non-direct tubes.
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05:47<andythenorth>reldred: know any engineers want a UK job? o_O
05:48<andythenorth>bit of a relocate, but eh
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05:48<reldred>heh, already know someone who relocated :P
05:48<reldred>plus, the place I'm at is already desperate for more staff :P
05:48<andythenorth>we're in AU + NZ too, but we kind of want someone we can see
05:48<andythenorth>everyone needs systems engineers :P
05:49<andythenorth>like unicorns
05:49<peter1138>Bristol eh?
05:50<andythenorth>such Bristol yes
05:50<peter1138>"Computer Science degree" Oh well ;(
05:51<peter1138>"coding since at least their early teens" well that's right.
05:51<peter1138>If 6502 assembly and BBC Basic is relevant :D
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>so what is a boris bike?
05:52<peter1138>London's hire bike system.
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>ah, so that boris
05:53<peter1138>Not actually his scheme but it's what everyone calls them.
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>the guy who puts his name on everything that wasn't his idea anyway
05:54<peter1138>Alliteration goes a long way.
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>one could wonder how they managed to brand it elizabeth line and not boris line :p
06:07<peter1138> < holy code duplication batman
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what that is meant to do
06:15<peter1138>Makes the game run at 30 milliseconds per tick.
06:15<peter1138>(On average)
06:15<peter1138>Instead of 30-32 milliseconds per tick.
06:16<peter1138>Not hugely important, just that fps patch highlighted it.
06:19<reldred>trying to get rid of that occasional micro-stutter?
06:19<reldred>That was something I had noticed when trying to record gif's back when I was last playing openttd
06:30<peter1138>Not stutter, that'll always happen as the gameplay rate is 33.333 fps, which doesn't really match anything.
06:30<reldred>Yeah fair enough
06:30<peter1138>And we don't use APIs that expose vsync anyway.
06:31<reldred>I was wondering whether it was just the patchpack I was running back then.
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>it probably was
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>some patchpacks have very performance heavy patches in them
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>like one of the early passenger destination patches had performance spikes on every new day
06:37<andythenorth>wish we had actual destinations :|
06:38<reldred>Yeah I was using an early version of JGR's patchpack with all the map array changes
06:38<andythenorth>cdist is very good, but it would be nice if pax wanted to go places
06:38<reldred>since I more or less can't play TTD without the custombridgeheads feature out of ttdpatch
06:38<andythenorth>I guess we patch that up with GS goals currently
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>custom bridgehads would be dope
06:39<peter1138>I had a patch for that.
06:39<peter1138>Then we got distracted by bridges over junctions, and...
06:40<reldred>which don't get me wrong, bridges over junctions was super effing handy
06:40<andythenorth>custom bridgeheads is what again?
06:41<reldred>hard to describe, take a regular bridge spanning a gap from slope to slope
06:41<reldred>then draw a diagonal rail on the bridgehead
06:41<reldred>ground sprite turns into a foundation piece
06:41<reldred>you can then remove the straight piece
06:41<peter1138>Basically, junctions on flat bridge heads.
06:41<peter1138>Not sure where "custom" came into it :-)
06:42<reldred>ahh that was just what eis_os called it back in the ttdpatch days
06:42<reldred>allowed you to make some amazingly compact junctions and flyovers
06:43<andythenorth>oh yeah we totally need those
06:43<peter1138>Not sure when I made those, file system says 2013 and that's wrong.
06:43<peter1138>Totally game changing.
06:43<andythenorth>it would be much nicer in towns
06:43<reldred>Yeah it was great for towns
06:43<andythenorth>most of OpenTTD is pretty great
06:43<reldred>And great for super super crunchy gnarly terrain
06:43<andythenorth>but building in towns is like pulling teeth
06:43<andythenorth>only option is to spam buses
06:44<andythenorth>and because cdist also floods towns with pax
06:44<andythenorth>it's unwinnable situation :D
06:44<peter1138>cdist shouldn't be creating more cargo than without.
06:44<andythenorth>yeah, but it stays on the network for much longer
06:44<andythenorth>child #1 has many suggestions :P
06:44<andythenorth>stations in tunnels
06:45<andythenorth>bridges over stations
06:45<reldred>I think eventually once the map array can be redone entirely that rollercoaster tycoon style terrain modification would be tits. Especially for creating proper mountain ranges and cliffs, but that'd be so huge a change
06:45<peter1138>We'll make a dev of child #1 some day...
06:45<andythenorth>peter1138 he wants to do a degree in maths, physics, with coding modules
06:45<andythenorth>he's 8, wtf is he thinking? :P
06:45<SpComb>cdist definitely requires more total transport capacity
06:46<andythenorth>I tried to patch up towns by providing high capacity metro trains and trams in grf
06:46<andythenorth>kind of works, but you have to turn magic bulldozer on :P
06:46<andythenorth>oh the thing where you can't delete connected road pieces?
06:46<andythenorth>that's tedious, an outdated restriction imo :P
06:46<reldred>Yeah, that was always one of the first patches I turned on in ttdpatch
06:47<SpComb>the cdist overlay/waiting cargo info is much more informative in OpenTTD compared to transport fever, it's harder to plan routes and capacity there
06:47<peter1138> < ahhh, bridges over stations...
06:48<reldred>oh the poor sprite sorter
06:48<reldred>with the right bridge graphics though it was great.
06:49<SpComb>I think the pax destination modelling is also different... the bigger your network and the more connected destinations that you have, the more pax show up at your stations... it's a good mechanic
06:50<reldred>Transport fever drove me up the damn wall
06:50<peter1138>There's too much too early.
06:50<SpComb>and then towns are also connected with roads, and pax will drive cars between cities instead of using your lines :)
06:50<reldred>I struggled with that game. Ended up uninstalling it.
06:51<SpComb>and then later on in the game all your busses get stuck in traffic until you upgrade/"optimize" the public roads :)
06:51<reldred>City Skylines has been fun. The little people running around are always looking for quicker ways to get places so they'll use public transport pretty extensively.
06:51<reldred>but that's obviously a citybuilder rather than a transport game
06:52<SpComb>I enjoy both
06:52<SpComb>TF has implementation issues/bugs, but it's manageable
06:53<reldred>Performance in tranport fever also drove me up the wall; I've got a 3440x1440 monitor which is just asking for trouble with a 1060...
06:53<SpComb>every game so far I've ended up with a tram permanently stuck in a train station entrance somewhere after refactoring the roads/stops in front of the station :(
06:54<SpComb>afaik it's cpu-bound, and not that gpu-heavy?
06:54<andythenorth>ok I should add a github issue :P
06:54<andythenorth>NotNewBuildingStuffInTowns branch
06:54<reldred>Dunno, but I was having to play it in a downsized window to get it to stop chugging so badly, but yes I noticed later in game it thrashed cpu to death as well
06:55*andythenorth wonders if we could have more town grid options
06:55<andythenorth>including a super stupid easy one that leaves lanes of tiles open :P
06:56<reldred>I remembered screwing with the road branching probability in order to get more spaced out towns when I was screwing around with making newbuildings sets
06:57<reldred>esp. when we started getting so many more 2x2 buildings
06:59<peter1138>Hmm, damn, my jenkins stopped working again :-(
06:59<peter1138>I think perhaps a machine with 2GB ram is not quite enough.
07:06<peter1138>Eventually I got a login screen!
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>my life got a lot better when i switched from CFQ to Deadline scheduler
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07:31<reldred>right, time for me to bounce, ttyal
08:32<peter1138>Ok, that machine now has 8GB ram.
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10:05<ANIKHTOS>hello how are you
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11:37<ANIKHTOS>hello eddi how are you??
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12:55<nielsm>hmm this actually looks kinda bad:
12:55<nielsm>the average/current time values aren't aligned
12:55<nielsm>I wonder if it would be acceptable to force them right-aligned
12:56<nielsm>but should probably ask someone speaking the language
12:57<nielsm>japanese HUEG fonts also makes the graph look funny:
12:57<nielsm>(taller than wide)
13:06<peter1138>I wouldn't worry about that.
13:06<ANIKHTOS>well traditional japanese writign is oposite ours and also the wrote in vertical lines from top to bottom
13:08<nielsm>tried forcing graph windows to be width=2*height ...
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13:09<Wolf01>I can't even raise the arm
13:15<nielsm>peter1138, TrueBrain, any more feature-ish things for the fps-meter branch? I'm considering adding a bunch more measurements in specific parts of the game loop, but that's all I can think of
13:18<Wolf01>Something like % used by pathfinding, % used for orders, etc?
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>cargo handling
13:19<nielsm>it might get annoying to measure some of those things, since I think they need to be summed from individual calls per vehicle/station/whatever
13:20<nielsm>but yes time spent on pathfinding is probably one of the interesting metrics :)
13:20<nielsm>also time spent on AI and game scripts?
13:20<nielsm>cargodist graph
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>we used to have TIC() and TOC() macros for that kind of stuff
13:20<Wolf01>% used by drawing UI
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, cargodist may be tricky, because it is offloaded to threads
13:20<Wolf01>So you can see how it performs with 14 viewports
13:21<nielsm>can't really separate "drawing ui" from "drawing world"
13:21<nielsm>since even the main "background" viewport is handled as a window
13:21<nielsm>as far as I understand
13:28<peter1138>You'd need to add up all the viewport render measurements and subtract from the gui rendering.
13:28<peter1138>"Graphics rendering" vs "Video output" is perhaps a bit confusing though.
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13:29<nielsm>yeah, maybe "video output" isn't strictly needed
13:30<nielsm>I don't know if there's any real world situations where "copy image to hardware" is slow enough to matter
13:30<peter1138>When do Simulation rate and Graphics frame rate differ?
13:31<nielsm>on win32_v never
13:31<peter1138>Simulation rate still shows frames/s when paused.
13:31<nielsm>I don't know if it's practically possible to let a window driver only call the rendering routines on some of frames
13:32<nielsm>or if that will break all sorts of things
13:32<nielsm>"game loop" technically measures StateGameLoop() in openttd.cpp
13:32<nielsm>which does get called even in paused state
13:35<nielsm>oh actually it's GameLoop() it measures
13:35<nielsm>which does a couple more things
13:37<peter1138>Can't you just measure it at the point where pause mode is checked?
13:40<nielsm>let's try that
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13:42<nielsm>yeah it does have the funny effect that all measurements relating to it just stop updating
13:42<peter1138>You could literally pause them :-)
13:42<nielsm>and when you unpause there's a huge gap
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14:13<andythenorth>haven't done any newgrf for ages
14:13<andythenorth>have I quit?
14:21<ANIKHTOS>ii have a counter name dayh i start it with 1 and slowly increase it and compare it to another value with an if (dayh>daym) ... if set the dayh to start form zero and i write the if (dayh==daym) i do not get the same results inside the game why?? in both cases when if is true the counter is reset and in both times they will reach the true state in same number of increasent
14:29<ANIKHTOS> this link
14:29<ANIKHTOS>whats the difference??
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14:36<ANIKHTOS>and silence
14:41<ANIKHTOS> here is the whole function depending if i have == in the if or > or >= the code behaves complelty different and some time out wrong , > and >= behave the same
14:41<ANIKHTOS>any thought??
14:43<Xaroth>You do realize that most people in here don't sit on IRC 24/7, right?
14:43<Xaroth>(except andythenorth, he's here all the time)
14:43<ANIKHTOS>yes i realize that
14:44<ANIKHTOS>maybe there is someone here
14:44<ANIKHTOS>maybe there is not
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14:49<andythenorth>the thing is
14:49<andythenorth>I can draw pixels
14:50<andythenorth>or play tanks
14:59<LordAro>ANIKHTOS: begging people to answer within minutes makes people less likely to answer, not more
15:00<ANIKHTOS>well i thought the question is easy to answer
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15:00<LordAro>i haven't looked
15:00<ANIKHTOS>in visual basic i had nto problem with the code bee equal or uneven when we talk about counters
15:01<ANIKHTOS>and you reset them afte n step either with they are equal to this value
15:01<ANIKHTOS>or they are more than this values
15:01<ANIKHTOS>you either start from 0 or 1 to make sure you will have the same steps
15:01<ANIKHTOS>and thats the only difference
15:03<ANIKHTOS>this is not the case with the code i wrote and palced in ottd and i am wonderign why??
15:04<ANIKHTOS>i have my counter i compare it to a value if statement becomes true i reset the ocutner and run also the desired code
15:05<ANIKHTOS>compare it as == equal and compare it as > bigger gives my co,plelty different results as the code behaves !?!?!?!
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16:02<ANIKHTOS>hello glx+
16:08<LordAro>ANIKHTOS: there's still not enough code in your link to actually tell what it's doing properly, and i'm not even sure what your problem is
16:09<LordAro>but it looks like you're mixing up your n and h variables
16:09<ANIKHTOS>they are different and they do differnet hings
16:09<LordAro>also, indent your code properly
16:09<LordAro>makes it an awful lot easier for anyone else to read
16:10<ANIKHTOS>thats hwo others write the if function
16:11<ANIKHTOS>dayn counter is used to call the slow day and dayh icounter isused to call the normal month
16:11<ANIKHTOS>complelty different and they are not mixed up
16:12<LordAro>so what exactly is the problem
16:12<ANIKHTOS>when i launch the game and either i start a new game or load a save game i have bug
16:12<ANIKHTOS>that only apears once
16:13<ANIKHTOS>in another isntance of code it was autosavign the first N days where N is the slow factor you have chosen
16:13<ANIKHTOS>after that the game run perfeclty okey and never this bug apeared again
16:14<ANIKHTOS>chanigns the == to > in the function i still get the bug once per lauch game
16:14<ANIKHTOS>but it apears in diffrent time areas
16:14<LordAro>you can't just change stuff randomly
16:14<nielsm>have you tried adding some debug printing to your code, to check the actual values of variables as it's running?
16:14<LordAro>it's important you understand why there's an issue in the first place
16:15<ANIKHTOS>well there ought not to be an issue in the first place
16:15<ANIKHTOS>and it only happens once every tiem i lauchg the game
16:15<ANIKHTOS>if th egame is run and i start another game or load a game the bug does nto apear
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16:15<ANIKHTOS>its only once per lauch game
16:15<nielsm>(also, using an IDE with integrated debugger makes it much more comfortable stepping through code and examining state, figuring out what's really happening)
16:16<ANIKHTOS>mingw has this feature nielsm??
16:16<nielsm>uh I suppose you could install gdb, but you're going to hate it
16:16<nielsm>and just end up not using it
16:17<LordAro>print statements
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16:18<nielsm>yeah you could do the basic #include "debug.h" and then use DEBUG(misc,0, "stuff: %d", dateh); or whatever
16:18<LordAro>pfft, nothing so complicated
16:19<LordAro>printf("%d\n", variable);
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16:19<ANIKHTOS>where i write this??
16:19<LordAro>wherever you want to
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16:20<nielsm>the idea is to add some code that writes the values of variables at relevant places
16:20<nielsm>for example print the value of your slowdown factor setting at entry to the time tick function
16:21<nielsm>and what the values of the relevant timekeeping variables are at entry and exit
16:21<ANIKHTOS>this is static does nto change
16:21<nielsm>well, just to be 110% sure, right?
16:22<ANIKHTOS>nielsm if i have a counter and i want to compare it to a value and then execute code
16:22<ANIKHTOS>-== or > ought to be the same right??
16:22<nielsm>"it's not supposed to ever change", test and make sure it's true that it never changes
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16:23<ANIKHTOS>simpel exambel if i have a coutner x and astrt it x=1 if acompare it x>5 and the othe roption x=0 start form ther x=5 will both executed after the same number of steps
16:23<ANIKHTOS>thus making them equal??
16:25<LordAro>be. accurate.
16:25<LordAro>i don't even care about your words, your code "snippets" are clearly (i hope) inaccurate
16:25<LordAro>so making it impossible to work out what you actually mean
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16:27<ANIKHTOS>i have a counter that is increasing after N steps of incresement it will reset and also run some code
16:27<ANIKHTOS>so the trigger event for that can be when counter == value
16:28<ANIKHTOS>or when counter> value
16:29<ANIKHTOS>if counter start from 0 iti will take N steps to be the value thus counter== value to be true or if you start coutner =1 it will take N stape for counter> value to be true
16:29<ANIKHTOS>thus using == or > will wield the same result riight??
16:31<nielsm>well yes but you're probably still making some kind of boundary error, so add some printf's to your code and confirm that variables are actually taking on the values you intend them to, and the branches you expect to be taken do get taken
16:31<nielsm>gonna sleep now, gn
16:31<ANIKHTOS>good night nielsm
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17:13<GT>which game settings do cause a variation in result over time? I'm testing my AI, giving the same seed for restarts of the game, but the result for the same AI over 10 years vary a lot, making it hard to decide whether a change in code has improved the AI.
17:17<@Rubidium>IIRC the AI's random doesn't use the random generator that uses the seed
17:20<GT>Well, I didn't refer to the AI's random function, but I noticed that the reproducibility of restarting the game with the same seed, so the same map is generated is quite large, making it hard to judge AI improvements
17:21<GT>./openttd -d  -g -G "579140164"
17:22<GT>Set to fast forward, using the same, unchanged AI, let it run over 10 years, and results will vary between 19mln to 39 mln for bank balance. So I'm looking for a way to make it more reproducible.
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17:45<ANIKHTOS>gt i am alterign the time so you can slow it down so my problems are not the saem as yours
17:46<ANIKHTOS>lordara i found what is happneing
17:47<ANIKHTOS>but it is a bug
17:47<ANIKHTOS>line 14 is nto run the first N times !?!?! it does not run this line but after that it does run it
17:54<ANIKHTOS>lordara for the first N times it does not run line 14 but line 22!?!?!?! or lines 24-28!?!?!?
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---Logclosed Thu Jun 21 00:00:02 2018