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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-07-13

---Logopened Fri Jul 13 00:00:32 2018
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07:35<andythenorth>o/
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07:36<Borg>howdy.. any schedule for 1.8.1 ?
07:37<andythenorth>there's never a schedule Borg :)
07:37<andythenorth>there's a general aim for a release around April 1 each year ;)
07:38<LordAro>got to work out how to do releases again first
07:38<andythenorth>currently we can't build binaries, because a new compile farm is being engineered
07:40<andythenorth>on the upside, there are a *lot* of features and fixes since 1.8.0
07:45<Borg>yeah.. I saw targets.. like C++14 or C++17... :(
07:57<peter1138>https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/13/python_creator_guido_van_rossum_quits/
07:57<peter1138>oo
07:57<LordAro>Borg: ":(" ?
07:58<LordAro>peter1138: ikr
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08:20<andythenorth>unusual lack of snark from el reg
08:21<andythenorth>"From us here at The Register: good luck, Guido. We know that plenty of our readers enjoy and profit from your work. Thanks for your labours and a language that’s made a big difference. "
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09:25<FLHerne>Eh, they're always much nicer about individuals than faceless megaprojects
09:25*FLHerne hopes they repeal PEP 572 now :-/
09:25<FLHerne>It really is horrible
09:26<FLHerne>I remember when I first started with Python being quite frustrated that I couldn't do assignments in the middle of things
09:27<FLHerne>But there's almost always a better alternative
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09:45<LordAro>it needs rust's approach - everything is an expression that can be assigned - or nothing at all, imo
09:45<LordAro>the usecases for it otherwise are vanishingly small
09:47<peter1138>Ooops, my salt-state package install also installed recommended packages... 280MB later... ;(
09:48<peter1138>Pretty sure I don't need java and X libraries on there.
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10:45<@Alberth>o/
10:51<andythenorth>hi Alberth
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11:59<andythenorth>hmm
11:59<andythenorth>FIRS Extreme
11:59<andythenorth>I can't even draw the chains :P
12:18<@Alberth>just draw a fully connected graph :)
12:18<@Alberth>'close approximation' :)
12:19<andythenorth>I think I need to fix on specific sub-chains
12:19<andythenorth>like the ECS vectors, only all in one grf
12:20<andythenorth>I am expanding the chemicals chain
12:20<andythenorth>but it makes my head hurt tbh
12:21<andythenorth>it varies a lot by era and geography
12:21<andythenorth>some processes use chemical 1 as a feedstock to produce chemical 2
12:21<andythenorth>and others seem to use chemical 2 as the feedstock for chemical 1
12:21<andythenorth>very confusing
12:22<andythenorth>sulphur, salt and chlorine are very interconnected :P
12:22<andythenorth>and ammonia
12:23<FLHerne>andythenorth: Do we really need this many cargoes? :-/
12:23<FLHerne>I mean, I thought I was one for overcomplicating things
12:23<andythenorth>of course not
12:23<andythenorth>but where's the harm? o_O
12:24<andythenorth>at this point it's a game of whether I can make it good with 48 cargos
12:24<FLHerne>But normal FIRS is already about as many as I can sanely do anything with
12:24<andythenorth>I agree
12:24<andythenorth>but sometimes we have to go to 11
12:24<andythenorth>if I fail, there's always FIRS 3
12:25<andythenorth>if MOAR was obviously better I might not bother :)
12:25<andythenorth>probability is that MOAR is worse
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12:25<andythenorth>but why climb Everest instead of Snowdon?
12:25<FLHerne>I see :P
12:26<FLHerne>Should I bend my frame to 130mm OLD, or respace this hub to 126mm and put up with having >10mm offset?
12:26<andythenorth>have you got frame-bending tools?
12:27<FLHerne>I have some bits of wood and string
12:27<andythenorth>the offset is already bothering you :)
12:27<andythenorth>so you have to bend
12:27<andythenorth>but if you break it....
12:28<FLHerne>Eh, it's fairly heavily-built for a road frame, it'll probably be fine :P
12:29<FLHerne>I guess I could just spring it, like I did with the old one
12:29<FLHerne>But that was a nuisance
12:31<FLHerne>You think 10mm would be too much offset?
12:31*FLHerne doesn't have much experience fiddling with wheels
12:33<andythenorth>hmm
12:33<andythenorth>dunno :)
12:34<andythenorth>ammonia should come from primary industry eh
12:34<andythenorth>haber-bosch thing
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13:09<andythenorth>ammonia, soda ash -> detergent factory -> goods(?)
13:09<andythenorth>is that goods?
13:09<andythenorth>I could add a lot of town cargos
13:18<nielsm>household goods
13:18<FLHerne>You could add a distinction between wholesale goods and local-delivery, with warehouses and distribution centres :P
13:18<nielsm>yeah
13:19<FLHerne>Supermarkets accept wholesale goods, obviously
13:20<FLHerne>No, scale
13:20<FLHerne>Retail parks
13:21<nielsm>can some of the destinations perhaps be regular town buildings? can they be made to accept any goods or are they limited to just passengers/mail/food/goods?
13:22<nielsm>(I guess food and goods is still enough, for edible and non-edible consumables palleted for smaller scale retail)
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13:33<andythenorth>warehouse
13:34<Wolf01>o/
13:37<andythenorth>what cargo label for ammonia?
13:37<andythenorth>ammo? :P
13:37<nielsm>NH?
13:37<nielsm>NH3
13:39<nielsm>teach the players chemistry :)
13:39<Wolf01>Project 5: sightseer does exactly that
13:39<andythenorth>it's NH4 in industrial form
13:39<andythenorth>cargo labels are 4 letters
13:39<andythenorth>or so
13:39<nielsm>that's ammonium
13:40<nielsm>NH3 is ammonia, NH4 is ammonium
13:40<andythenorth>you're right
13:40<andythenorth>I am misreading, again
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13:49<andythenorth>is amonnia unit volume, or weight?
13:49<andythenorth>ammonia *
13:50<nielsm>weight is my guess
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>ok, this "space chem" game is insane...
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>or it's making me insane...
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>probably both
13:54<nielsm>wikipedia says "30% of agricultural nitrogen applied in the USA is in the form of anhydrous ammonia and worldwide 110 million tonnes are applied each year."
13:54<Wolf01>Ahahah I was tempted to run it too
13:54<nielsm>tonnes
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14:28<andythenorth>where does salt come from then? o_O
14:29<@Alberth>the sea
14:29<andythenorth>salt mine?
14:29<andythenorth>brine well?
14:29<@Alberth>mines too, I think
14:30<@Alberth>just pump water into the mine, it returns with salt
14:32<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Kali_(Heringen)
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with "the steam cloud"?
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14:34<Eddi|zuHause>at my place, these kind of mountains are made from copper mining byproducts
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15:13<frosch123>andythenorth: brine sounds most interesting of the options
15:13<frosch123>it's liquid at least
15:15<andythenorth>yeah I figured the same
15:15<andythenorth>currently I have salt as by product of potash mine
15:15<andythenorth>like Eddi's Monte Kali
15:15<andythenorth>but it seems dull
15:18<nielsm>what if a newgrf industry could dictate that it always gets built together with another industry?
15:19<frosch123>they can check for existing industries nearby
15:19<frosch123>andy knows better whether that worked good, or deadlocked too often
15:19<nielsm>sure
15:20<andythenorth>I have done it in one case
15:20<andythenorth>it's not super reliably
15:20<andythenorth>it would be quite easy to deadlock imho
15:20<nielsm>but then you have to hope that the game wants to build both
15:20<andythenorth>yes
15:20<andythenorth>the risk isn't so much deadlocking TTD
15:20<nielsm>and hits the right spot in the random location trials
15:20<andythenorth>it's getting a pathologically stupid map :)
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15:21<nielsm>my idea is pretty much having a kind of interlocked industry pairs
15:22<nielsm>so whenever one is built, the other is also built, and if one shuts down they both shut down
15:22<andythenorth>nah
15:22<andythenorth>shut down is not controlled easily
15:22<andythenorth>nor triggering build
15:22<andythenorth>GS _could_ do it
15:22<andythenorth>but it is blind to newgrf, by design, so eh
15:22<nielsm>well what if it was added as a feature :)
15:23<andythenorth>then it gets interesting
15:23*andythenorth wonders if bundles builds hg branches
15:24<frosch123>nielsm: can you give an example, which industries would you pair?
15:24<andythenorth>maybe the branch is a jenkins setting
15:24<andythenorth>but I am locked out of jenkins, so I can't check
15:24<andythenorth>:P
15:24<frosch123>usually we have use-cases to put certain industries not close to each other, so you can transport between them
15:25<frosch123>but you seem to want to do the opposite: put industries near to each other
15:25<andythenorth>in FIRS, the blast furnace and oxygen furnace are examples
15:25<andythenorth>one feeds the other
15:25<nielsm>for example the previously mentioned kalimanjaro, have it be a separate industry that always appears near a potash kiln
15:26<andythenorth>it's not just an IRL thing in Steeltown, it also makes for really hard station building
15:26<nielsm>for cargo delivery and production to stations the industries are separate
15:26<nielsm>but they might have some shared data for the newgrf
15:26<andythenorth>so Firefox used to memory leak
15:26<andythenorth>and now Chrome CPU leaks
15:27<Wolf01>Chrome eats... everything
15:27<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8740/Steeltown.png
15:27<nielsm>or, depending on how much you could be made to control layouts, have large factoyr complexes where some parts mainly take inputs and different parts produce different outputs
15:28<nielsm>e.g. a car factory with separate production lines for person cars and industrial machines
15:28<andythenorth>see above :P
15:30<nielsm>in part also just a way to overcome the 3 in/2 out cargo limits without changing structures or any other code :)
15:33<andythenorth>I considered that for refinery cargos
15:33<andythenorth>but eh
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15:57<JustAsking>just noticed OpenTTD on Windows Store for $$$, is this allowed?
15:58<andythenorth>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6832
15:59<nielsm>ottd is GPL, GPL expressly allows usage for any purpose including offering for sale at any price you want
16:00<nielsm>as long as you offer any buyers a copy of the source code used to build the exact version received
16:00<andythenorth>why is hg so hostile to branches?
16:01<andythenorth>literally anything you do with branches, it tells you off
16:01<nielsm>(buy it, demand to receive a copy of their modifications which must also be GPL licensed, integrate those modifications into master, put an official, free version on the windows store instead)
16:02<nielsm>(and if they do not comply with your demand for sources, ask EFF for help in court)
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16:12<andythenorth>started it http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
16:14<@Alberth>hg branches bt making a new clone, iirc
16:14<@Alberth>*by
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16:14<@Alberth>at it used to do that
16:14<@Alberth>*at least
16:27<andythenorth>hmm where should steel go :P
16:27<andythenorth>and alumninium
16:27<andythenorth>such thinking to do
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16:53<@Alberth>to the USA
16:54<@Alberth>bye
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18:16<Wolf01>'night
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18:52-!-tokai is "Christian Rosentreter" on +#openttd
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20:36-!-tokai|noir is "Christian Rosentreter" on +#openttd
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20:48-!-ToBeFree is "Tobias "ToBeFree" Frei" on #https-everywhere #oolite-dev #openttd #tor #debian #linux #oolite #oolite-ger
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21:16-!-tokai is "Christian Rosentreter" on +#openttd
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21:39-!-Supercheese is "Supercheese" on #openttd
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22:04-!-tokai is "Christian Rosentreter" on #openttd
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22:08-!-orudge is "Owen Rudge" on @#thesinner #openttdcoop.devzone #openttdcoop.dev @#z.aud @#z.radio @#locomotion @#transportempire #openttdcoop #openttd #tycoon
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22:11-!-muffindrake2 is "muffindrake" on #openttd
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22:21-!-Flygon is "Flygon" on #openttd
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22:21-!-tokai is "Christian Rosentreter" on #openttd
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22:42-!-tokai is "Christian Rosentreter" on #openttd
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22:43-!-smoke_fumus is "KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://kvirc.net/" on #qemu #oolite #openttd
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22:53-!-tokai|noir is "Christian Rosentreter" on +#openttd
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23:11-!-tokai is "Christian Rosentreter" on #openttd
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23:17-!-techmagus is "Yahanan Xie" on #openttd #tor #/r/openttd
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23:55-!-Supercheese is "Supercheese" on #openttd
---Logclosed Sat Jul 14 00:00:34 2018