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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-07-14

---Logopened Sat Jul 14 00:00:34 2018
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02:12<andythenorth>moin
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04:30<andythenorth>extreme enough yet? o_O http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
04:30<andythenorth>wrong link :P
04:30<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
04:31<andythenorth>chart is better locally for me
04:31<andythenorth>graphviz seems deterministic locally, but varies per platform
04:32<andythenorth>'packaging' sticks out as a choke point
04:36<andythenorth>'food' could also be split
04:36<andythenorth>'meat', 'cheese', etc
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04:43<andythenorth>biab
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05:15<Wolf01>o/
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05:25<Wolf01>And the winner is Alberth for being the 100th user today!
05:25<@Alberth>\o/
05:25<@Alberth>hi hi
05:25<Wolf01>Hi too
05:27<@Alberth>I'll mark it as 'done' on my bucket list
05:27<@Alberth>did I unlock something?
05:28<@Alberth>also, time for lunch
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05:47<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aMjDjQ1_460s.jpg so... planes carrying trains...
05:51<@Alberth>doesn't look like a major advantage to me
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06:29<andythenorth>so town cargos then
06:29<andythenorth>and packaging
06:29<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
06:30<andythenorth>furniture, textiles, household appliances
06:32<andythenorth>bottles, boxes, cans
06:34<andythenorth>coffee
06:34<Wolf01>Lunch
06:35<andythenorth>lunch is not a major cargo
06:38<@Alberth>:O great idea
06:38<Wolf01>Lego
06:38<@Alberth>looks like it can easily become one of my favorite economies
06:38<andythenorth>lunch economy?
06:38<@Alberth>Wolf01: wrong landscape :p
06:38<andythenorth>pizza, pasta, pie
06:38<@Alberth>extreme economy
06:39<@Alberth>or citonomy
06:39<Wolf01>Add lunch economy to extreme: win
06:39<andythenorth>I wanted to do a city economy for ages
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06:39<andythenorth>but with 32 cargos, it would have very bland chains for major industry
06:39<andythenorth>everything would be composite cargos
06:39<andythenorth>feel free to suggest city cargos :P
06:40<@Alberth>easter eggs :p
06:40<@Alberth>obviously should be an easter egg itself
06:41<Wolf01>You should be able to bring base products to cities directly, not only to industries to produce food
06:42<andythenorth>so ideas
06:42<andythenorth>sugar, flour
06:42<andythenorth>dairy products
06:42<andythenorth>household chemicals or detergent
06:42<andythenorth>meat, fish, cheese
06:42<@Alberth>no dairy stuff?
06:43<@Alberth>I do hope you keep mail, as it has passengers :)
06:43<andythenorth>RT3 had lots of town cargos http://hawkdawg.com/img/rrt/rt3/Industry_Chart.jpg
06:43<Wolf01>Add "amazon" and packages too
06:43<andythenorth>I could eliminate goods completely
06:44<@Alberth>oh, dairy is already in
06:44<Wolf01>Amazon eats every type of cargo and produces packages
06:44<andythenorth>not sure what I'd do with 'fish'
06:44<@Alberth>'goods' would be too generic here, I think
06:44<@Alberth>eat it, of course
06:45<andythenorth>it needs a processed / unprocessed version
06:45<andythenorth>oh, edible oil is exported from other economies
06:45<andythenorth>that could be in
06:45<andythenorth>a substantial challenge is organising destinations :P
06:45<@Alberth>packaging in the harbour seems a bit simple
06:45<andythenorth>towns aren't great for locating the necessary black hole industries
06:46<andythenorth>Wolf01: think we can adjust town road layout? o_O
06:46<andythenorth>add a 'spacious' option?
06:46<Wolf01>What do you need to fix there?
06:46<andythenorth>allow gaps
06:46<andythenorth>build boulevards
06:46<Wolf01>Just add 4x4, 5x5, 6x6
06:46<@Alberth>leave that puzzle to the players :)
06:47<andythenorth>I think a few tweaks might help
06:47<Wolf01>^
06:47<@Alberth>what about transporting passengers to the industries?
06:47<andythenorth>ho, Railroad Tycoon had toys :)
06:47<andythenorth>dunno about pax industries
06:48<andythenorth>other sets do it
06:48<@Alberth>as in work force
06:48<andythenorth>yes
06:48<andythenorth>YETI or workers
06:48<Wolf01>We need to extend the number of cargos accepted/produced by industries, it will open a lot of new roads
06:48<Wolf01>Also NRT
06:48<@Alberth>just stick with pax
06:48<andythenorth>NRT
06:48<andythenorth>dunno about the accept / produce limit
06:48<andythenorth>I mostly like it
06:49<andythenorth>sometimes 3 out would be useful, but it forces choices
06:49<@Alberth>just those that have room for in & out ?
06:50<@Alberth>only in or only out would be weird imho
06:52<Wolf01>8 in / 8 out
06:53<@Alberth>sounds like too much
06:56<@Alberth>some coffee would be nice
06:57<andythenorth>so town industries?
06:58<andythenorth>food shop
06:58<andythenorth>fish ship
06:58<andythenorth>fish shop :P
06:58<andythenorth>meat shop
06:58<andythenorth>cheese shop
06:58<andythenorth>clothes shop
06:58<andythenorth>furniture shop
06:58<andythenorth>coffee shop
06:58<andythenorth>bread shop
06:58<andythenorth>household appliance shop
06:58<andythenorth>chemist
06:58<andythenorth>toy shop
06:58<@Alberth>supermarket
06:59<nielsm>is it possible to make them not industries but just regular town buildings accepting those goods?
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07:04<@Alberth>o/
07:05<andythenorth>nielsm: the challenge with houses is (1) ensuring they're built (2) preventing them being replaced (3) players can't fund them
07:05<andythenorth>there are partial solutions to that, but it's easier to just use industry
07:06<Arveen>https://www.twitch.tv/rawiioli <- is that you Wolf01 ? :)
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07:14<Wolf01>Wut
07:14<Wolf01>Ahah
07:14<debdog>haha, is he ever goingt start building the bridge
07:14<debdog>*oing to
07:15<Wolf01>I'm studying a new industrial robotic arm for next year's expo, this time with more functions
07:16<Arveen>4800'ish blocks btw
07:17<Arveen>he spend the last couple of hours just sorting the blocks
07:17<Wolf01>Sorting is for pussies
07:17<Arveen>indeed, i never sorted anything when i build Legos
07:17<Wolf01>Everything inside a bin
07:18<Arveen>would be even more manly if he doesn't look at the instructions
07:18<andythenorth>I sort when I buy from bricklink
07:18<Wolf01>(talks the one which has 19 boxes with compartments)
07:18<andythenorth>but not when I'm building
07:18<andythenorth>I just have a box of big bits and a box of small bits
07:18<Wolf01>Me too
07:19<debdog>can't wait for the cat to roam the table
07:20<andythenorth>nuclear power chain for extreme?
07:21<@Alberth>it will solve the endless discussion :p
07:21<andythenorth>that's still going on?
07:21*andythenorth hasn't forumed
07:21<@Alberth>nah, it's mostly silent
07:21<andythenorth>hmm
07:22<andythenorth>split wood to 'pulpwood' and 'logs' ?
07:22<andythenorth>then pulpwood can also go to biomass power plant
07:22<andythenorth>or biorefinery
07:23<@Alberth>from the sawmill?
07:24<andythenorth>from the forest
07:24<andythenorth>https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photo-rail-cars-loaded-wood-chip-train-yard-full-freight-trains-image43904704
07:25<@Alberth>"printing works" ?
07:27<andythenorth>newspapers?
07:27<andythenorth>hmm
07:27<andythenorth>maybe 64 cargos aren't enough
07:27<andythenorth>128!
07:27<andythenorth>peter1138: ^
07:28<@Alberth>:)
07:31<Wolf01>XD
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07:50<andythenorth>so deliver all the different town cargos straight to town?
07:50<andythenorth>or to warehouses, to make 'food' and 'goods'?
07:54<peter1138>No
07:58<@Alberth>warehouse would be silly, you take all this effort to make nice chains, and then just merge all streams?
07:59<@Alberth>the whole point is to make chaos in cities, right?
08:02<reldred>I like the idea of chaos in cities
08:08<andythenorth>city chaos
08:08<andythenorth>ok
08:08<andythenorth>I had better figure it out then eh :P
08:08<andythenorth>shall I rename the economy 'City Chaos' :P
08:09<reldred>Industries moving into cities was one of my favorite things with newindustries back in the day of it's introduction, so I'm very keen to see what you're up to based on snippets I've been reading from you over the past few days :P
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>"Chaos City" was the german "translation" of the TV series "Spin City"
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>so, on an unrelated note, i would like some methods to query the state of railtypes. particularly, whether two entries in my RTT are pointing to the same actual railtype.
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>in either an action 2 or 6/7/9/D
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>also, useful would be to know the GRFID defining the railtype (like vehicle var 25)
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08:40<frosch123>i think multiple newgrf can define and alter the same railttype
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>i think in the context of var25 it is meant "the location of the action 3"
08:42<frosch123>yes, but act3 is more part of the activation phase than the reservation phase
08:42<frosch123>so testing for that in a7/9 would result in rimworld-style mode
08:43<frosch123>*mods
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08:44<Eddi|zuHause>ok, so that part would only make sense in action2
08:45<frosch123>so you want vendor-lockin grfs :) trains stop on tracks of other grf authors
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
08:46<frosch123>yetis go on strike if they have to drive on r* tracks
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>no, but MB wants to include rail sprites in his station graphics, and they must match the actually used railtype.
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>for that, the railtype label is not a useful distinction
08:49<peter1138>"rimworld-style mods"?
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09:08<frosch123>peter1138: they are loaded in order without any kind of loading stages
09:08<frosch123>so getting multiple mods into a working order requires some puzzling
09:08<frosch123>and some insight how mods change stuff
09:09<frosch123>ottd otoh has at least 3 stages to test what other newgrf did, and i think factorio has two
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>as for the "check if two railtypes are the same", if i want for example a wagon in multiple weight classes (18t, 20t, etc.) with different capacity, then i could hide them if the railtypes do not actually distinguish by weight
09:11<frosch123>i understood that part :)
09:11<frosch123>and it is fine in a7/9
09:11<frosch123>well, a7, not a9 :p
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>i never really understood the distinction
09:22<Wolf01>andythenorth: did you confuse your cat recently?
09:22<andythenorth>not intentionally
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09:40<andythenorth>hmm
09:40<andythenorth>asphalt
09:40<andythenorth>or bitumen
09:41<andythenorth>but the oil refinery has no spare outputs
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>split it into more industries
09:47<andythenorth>I could
09:47<andythenorth>there isn't really an intermediate product
09:47<andythenorth>there's "naptha" but the term is contended
09:48<andythenorth>biab
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13:00<andythenorth>hmm
13:00<andythenorth>all this building materials stuff
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13:34<peter1138>minecraft?
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13:45<andythenorth>hmm
13:45<andythenorth>that's more than 64 cargos
13:48<@Alberth>just building material? :p
13:48<@Alberth>could split it in a few house materials or so
13:49<andythenorth>wonder whether to disaggregate the cargo
13:49<andythenorth>and just deliver it to more town industries
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13:49<andythenorth>iirc, it's cement, bricks, timber, glass and metal parts
13:49*andythenorth checks
13:49<@Alberth>quite enough, I think
13:49<andythenorth>yeah so 5 cargos there
13:50<andythenorth>but glass could be a cargo
13:50<andythenorth>cement already is
13:50<@Alberth>insert some pre-fabrication thing in the timber connection?
13:51<andythenorth>there's already http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#lumber_yard
13:51<andythenorth>which turns timber into stuff for houses
13:51<andythenorth>hmm, it needs creosote
13:51<andythenorth>oops
13:51<andythenorth>maybe I should add 'paint'
14:00<andythenorth>medicines?
14:01<andythenorth>in very small units?
14:01<snail_UES_>andythenorth: “glass” is already a stand-alone cargo in ECS
14:01<andythenorth>plausible then
14:02<snail_UES_>and “dyes” in ECS sound very similar to “paint”
14:03<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_tar
14:03<nielsm>dyes and paint are not at all the same thing though?
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>no
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>paint you make from dyes
14:04<nielsm>paint is usually made with pigment afaik, not sure dyes are suitable for paint
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, that's a different thing than what i meant
14:05<andythenorth>I'm trying to work out how to get something to make roads with
14:05<andythenorth>and treat timber :P
14:06<nielsm>copper is an ingredient for some kinds of pressure treatment of timber
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>dyes are water-soluable, and thus easier to process than pigment, but less resistant to light
14:07<andythenorth>hmm
14:07<andythenorth>petcoke
14:07<andythenorth>http://www.raincarbon.com/products-and-services/carbon-products
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>is that coca cola for pets?
14:08<nielsm>it's when you keep lumps of coal for company
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>do the cokes put mice in front of your door or jump on tables?
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14:18<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_naphthenate
14:18<andythenorth>copper + petroleum fuels?
14:23<andythenorth>seems a bit detailed
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15:23<andythenorth>so 3 output cargos per industry? o_O
15:27<nielsm>the biggest risk of adding more output cargos per industry in the game would probably be AI and GS compatibility
15:27<nielsm>some may have assumptions
15:28<nielsm>apart from that it looks like it's almost just increasing a constant, everything else already handles the output cargoes in a loop
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15:41<andythenorth>selfishly, it would mean redesigning FIRS :)
15:41<andythenorth>so I am probably -1 :)
15:41<andythenorth>I should solve my current problem differently
16:20<frosch123>nielsm: that's unlikely
16:20<frosch123>in ai and gs everything are lists
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16:28<nielsm>frosch123 I know, but I could still imagine someone making dumb assumptions
16:28<nielsm>by copy-paste code or whatever
16:28<frosch123>it's more likely that a newgrf is broken
16:28<frosch123>maybe firs :p
16:30<andythenorth>FIRS compile would need refactored a bit :P
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16:54<andythenorth>hmm
16:54<andythenorth>mine tar products?
16:55<andythenorth>how much realism to include? :P
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17:35<andythenorth>LPG could be a cargo
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17:45<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun Jul 15 00:00:35 2018