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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-07-15

---Logopened Sun Jul 15 00:00:35 2018
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01:30<@Alberth>moin
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02:20<andythenorth>moin
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02:34<@Alberth>moin
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02:57<andythenorth>Alberth: somewhat http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
02:57<andythenorth>I'm still splitting out the town cargos
02:58<andythenorth>ideas welcome, I'd rather load it up with too much stuff, then delete some
03:00<@Alberth>Warf looks a little lonely :)
03:01<andythenorth>it is
03:01<andythenorth>town industries particularly welcome
03:01<andythenorth>it's a random set of cargos :P
03:01<andythenorth>considering: restaurant, supermarket, department store
03:02<andythenorth>cargos yet to add: furniture, edible oil, some split of goods
03:02<@Alberth>Stockyard would need some livestock areas?
03:02<andythenorth>in the sprite?
03:05<@Alberth>yes
03:05<andythenorth>yes, I want to redraw it
03:05<andythenorth>it's one monolothic sprite currently
03:05<andythenorth>been on my list for ages :)
03:06<@Alberth>bakery seems off-scale wrt to its input, if a bakery is a shop in the city
03:06<andythenorth>the town industries are all just clones of shop currently
03:06<@Alberth>could have industrial bakery, and ship food, I guess
03:06<andythenorth>I wondered if food needs to stay
03:06<andythenorth>hotel is weird now
03:06<andythenorth>food is gone
03:07<andythenorth>but not enough inputs for all the types
03:07<@Alberth>could have a cake-shop
03:07<andythenorth>fruit + sugar + flour
03:07<andythenorth>or dairy + sugar + flour
03:08<andythenorth>also, I suppose if I add illegal drugs, my kids can't play it :P
03:08<@Alberth>(the current bakery), and add bread or so with industrial bakery, although it would make cookies too
03:08<andythenorth>cookie factory
03:08<@Alberth>sounds like a fun cargo :p
03:08<@Alberth>more toy-land
03:08<andythenorth>I wondered about butchers being deli
03:08<andythenorth>meat + dairy
03:09<andythenorth>dunno how that works
03:09<andythenorth>this is approximately austria-germany-poland
03:09<@Alberth>butcher would be fine imho
03:09<andythenorth>slight change, I dropped sulphur http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
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03:10<andythenorth>potatoes + edible oil -> chip shop?
03:10<Wolf01>Potatoes + diesel = ?
03:10<@Alberth>dairy products might include meat though, maybe that's what you meant?
03:10<Wolf01>Oh it's not alchemy
03:10<@Alberth>ho Wolf01
03:10<Wolf01>o/
03:10<@Alberth>*hi
03:11<andythenorth>Alberth: I was thinking have butchers accept dairy
03:11<andythenorth>maybe
03:11<andythenorth>in UK now butchers sell cheese often
03:11<Wolf01>Mmmmh... alchemy chain
03:11<andythenorth>mmm
03:11<@Alberth>here they might accept livestock
03:11<andythenorth>salt could go to food processing plants also
03:11<andythenorth>live chickens?
03:12<andythenorth>I don't think butchers recieve trainloads of salt, so I'll probly ignore that
03:12<@Alberth>cows mostly I think, since I live in cow country :p
03:12<Wolf01>Monkey + tool = monkey wrench
03:12<andythenorth>spice?
03:12<andythenorth>imported pepper and stuff
03:12<andythenorth>Wolf01: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
03:13<andythenorth>compare :P http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
03:13<@Alberth>spice seems big enough in variety
03:13<Wolf01>Ha!
03:13<Wolf01>A bit more readable
03:13<@Alberth>less extreme :p
03:13<Wolf01>Good choice with the grocer's shop
03:14<andythenorth>it's quite extreme
03:14<andythenorth>because on smaller maps
03:14<andythenorth>the game struggles to build the industries :P
03:14<Wolf01>Eh, I play mainly 64
03:14<andythenorth>on 256x512 it's building ~1 of each
03:14<andythenorth>so potentially have to transport across whole map between each
03:14<Wolf01>64*1024
03:15<Wolf01>It would be cool if the industries can be somewhat in order, so I can start from one end
03:16<Wolf01>Maybe even distinct chains in different parts of the map
03:16<andythenorth>that could be done
03:16<andythenorth>better with GS, but not current GS
03:16<andythenorth>hmm
03:16<andythenorth>so I only have about 50% of the new town industries
03:17<andythenorth>but they're not getting well placed
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03:17<andythenorth>most towns lack most of the shops
03:17<andythenorth>so it's not so much 'city chaos' as 'this town accepts nothing'
03:18<Wolf01>Put a weight for the quantity of industries? Could be useful to have a lot of tertiary industries and fewer primary/secondary
03:18<andythenorth>I can control probability
03:18<andythenorth>but it's relatively limited, and easy to get unintended consequences
03:18<Wolf01>The "number of industries" setting need to be tuned better considering the type of industries and map area
03:19<andythenorth>what's long needed is some better control over creation
03:19<andythenorth>placement can be absolutely controlled
03:19<andythenorth>but not the choice of where to try placing :P
03:19<Wolf01>Or make scenarios, I would like to make a scenario with firs when firs will be finished
03:20<@Alberth>no electronic devices?
03:20<Wolf01>Could a scenario contain a GS? It would be a good thing to have a scenario with specific goals
03:20<@Alberth>refridgerators, freezers, and tvs?
03:21<andythenorth>household appliances
03:21<andythenorth>steel + plastic + copper
03:21<@Alberth>Wolf01: Likely it can, the tutorial has something like that
03:21<andythenorth>my main challenge here is balancing the heavy industry cargos and the town cargos eh
03:22<@Alberth>yeah, new version seems to me more 'heavy'
03:22<andythenorth>I could take some detail out of the chemicals chain
03:22<andythenorth>but I like it :P
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03:23<andythenorth>v3 extreme, everything is over-connected
03:23<@Alberth>wouldn't that be more simple?
03:24<andythenorth>it's simpler in some ways, more chance of a supplier + accepter being nearby
03:24<@Alberth>less connections would be more difficult, I think
03:24<andythenorth>but cargos are over-demanded, so that's frustrating
03:24<@Alberth>clearly a bakery could produce a 3,000 tonnes of bread / month :p
03:24<andythenorth>easy
03:25<andythenorth>bread is quite light though eh
03:25<andythenorth>so goods needs unpicked
03:25<@Alberth>I believe 3,000 bread / month
03:25<andythenorth>household chemicals, household appliances
03:26<andythenorth>furniture
03:26<andythenorth>that puts it at 45 cargos total so far
03:26<@Alberth>19 left :p
03:26<andythenorth>I am aiming for 48 :)
03:26<andythenorth>oh paper too
03:27<andythenorth>then building materials needs unpicked maybe
03:27<andythenorth>not sure
03:27<andythenorth>might be fine as a composite
03:27<@Alberth>I think it is
03:27<andythenorth>other than 'builders yard' where can building materials go?
03:27<andythenorth>'construction site' doesn't work
03:27<@Alberth>DIY shops :p
03:27<andythenorth>hardware store, already in :)
03:28<andythenorth>I think cement can be dropped back into building materials
03:28<@Alberth>construction site as house?
03:28<@Alberth>would be nice if you can limit its life time then
03:29<andythenorth>there's no automobile chain here currently
03:30<andythenorth>it's been requested multiple times
03:30<andythenorth>but I don't want it here, so eh :P
03:30<Wolf01>Add more cargos accepted by buildings without making them industries?
03:30<andythenorth>Wolf01: considering it
03:30<andythenorth>but then I have to make a house set separately
03:30<andythenorth>and there's no way to enforce loading it
03:31<Wolf01>If you load it you make use of it, if you don't nothing changes
03:31<Wolf01>And if you load it without firs you can use it with other available cargos
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03:32<Wolf01>Maybe on firs you can detect if it's loaded and enable/disable specific town industries
03:33<andythenorth>can we fund individual houses yet?
03:34<@Alberth>I agree automobile chain would not fit here
03:34<Wolf01><andythenorth> can we fund individual houses yet? <- no, and it would be like a gread addition
03:36<andythenorth>no cement, simpler again http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
03:37<andythenorth>so do we package milk in aluminium cans?
03:37<andythenorth>something is not right with packaging
03:37<Wolf01>Paper or glass
03:39<andythenorth> I wonder if packaging is interesting at all
03:39<andythenorth>kind of tedious
03:40<Wolf01>Ha, acs121 throwing knowledge all around :P
03:41<andythenorth>one of the several reasons I quit forums
03:41<Wolf01>Oh you ragequit too?
03:41<andythenorth>yes
03:41<Wolf01>Did you delete all your posts?
03:41<andythenorth>nope
03:41<Wolf01>:P
03:41<andythenorth>Michael sniped one time too many
03:41<andythenorth>I can't be arsed
03:42<andythenorth>I do think forums are pretty toxic now
03:42<andythenorth>I should stop donating eh
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03:47<andythenorth>anyone want to do the FIRS release announcements? o_O
03:47<andythenorth>it's just a copy-paste from changelog to forum :P
03:47<Wolf01>Ha... nope, YOU do it :P
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03:47<Wolf01>Limit yourself to only make release announcements and don't reply
03:47<andythenorth>maybe new openttd.org will handle it
03:52<Wolf01>MMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmhh NRT with 2 tram types in a single tile
03:53<Wolf01>Bad wolf, bad wolf
03:54<andythenorth>'fancy goods'
03:54<andythenorth>'curiosities'
03:54<andythenorth>'baubles'
03:55*andythenorth has ideas :P
03:55<@Alberth>needful things :p
03:55<andythenorth>hmmm
03:55<@Alberth>may end badly though :p
03:55<andythenorth>'essential luxuries'
03:55<andythenorth>also we don't have 'nightsoil' cargo :P
03:56<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil
03:56<@Alberth>no waste cargo? has been requested as well :)
03:57<andythenorth>I tried waste
03:57<andythenorth>didn't work at the time
03:57<andythenorth>could restore it
03:58<@Alberth>likely it doesn't work indeed, not much you can do with it
03:58<andythenorth>waste -> furnace
03:58<@Alberth>mostly sorting it, and then dispatch to various recycle things
03:58<andythenorth>recyclables is there already, I replaced waste with it
03:59<@Alberth>so you covered it mostly already
03:59<andythenorth>mostly :)
04:00<Wolf01>Make waste pits, with a stockpile and don't use it, so when full you need to find another industry :P
04:00<andythenorth>hmm
04:00<andythenorth>this is close to needing a play test
04:00<andythenorth>can't decide how long chains should be
04:01<andythenorth>Steeltown is quite brutal, 6 steps to get final cargo out of chain
04:01<andythenorth>and every step is about 75% efficient at best
04:02<andythenorth>so the amount of raw input required is huge
04:02<andythenorth>I don't want that here :P
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04:06<Wolf01>I was reading the shunting topic, I think there is one big thing missing: consists
04:09<stefino>hello all. Is "game tick" constantly long or not? I read that it takes +- 30ms but in case of sound events it looks that it isn't constant. If I have 16tick long sound event (stop vehicle), 16*0,030=0,48s - it would give constant sound track - theoretical. In game it isn't constant.
04:10<nielsm>yes the 30 ms is at "ideal standard speed"
04:10<nielsm>a tick is not a real-time thing but a simulation thing
04:10<nielsm>if the computer is slow ticks can take longer than 30 ms to process and so the game will run slower than real time
04:10<stefino>okay but it has tobe constantly long
04:10<nielsm>there isn't any good way to synchronize a long-running sound to on-screen actions
04:11<nielsm>(also what if the player pauses the game right as the sound has started playing? it keeps playing while nothing is being simulated)
04:12<stefino>no, I don't need to synchonize sound with graphics. I need to make perfect sound loop. First loop ends, second starts.
04:13<nielsm>yeah that's not possible at all
04:14<nielsm>additionally, if the player turns on fast-forward mode you can get ticks taking as little as 2 or 1 ms
04:15<stefino>mmm, that's bad :/
04:15<nielsm>the sound mixer would need a way to mark a sound as looping so the sound subsystem itself could handle it, but then you run into issues with how to stop it, and the limited number of channels
04:15<stefino>it is funny that there is a possibility to make stopped or running sound events but it is unreal to do it :D
04:16<stefino>...to doa perfect sound loop
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04:34<andythenorth>potatos
04:34<andythenorth>SPUD or TATO for the label?
04:34<andythenorth>I ruled out CHIP
04:39<@Alberth>POTA ?
04:39<nielsm>TATR
04:39<@Alberth>RXQW
04:41<andythenorth>POTA is potash already
04:56<andythenorth>but is it extreme? o_O http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
04:58<Wolf01>It is BIG for sure
04:59<andythenorth>it's less and less connected
04:59<andythenorth>which might be fine
04:59<nielsm>metal workshop/metal fabrication plant -> industrial waste -> recycling depot
05:01<nielsm>hm no make that machine shop -> small output of scrap metal
05:03<nielsm>recycling plant -> scrap plastic -> plastics plant ?
05:05<nielsm>also imo the plastics plant should make raw plastic which can then be processed further at other specialized industries
05:09<andythenorth>yeah
05:09<andythenorth>I wondered
05:09<andythenorth>now I've dropped packaging
05:09<andythenorth>I could restore packaging and have a packaging factory also
05:10<andythenorth>ok
05:10<andythenorth>more ideas welcome, most won't fly but eh
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05:13<nielsm>is there a way for an industry to check if another industry of some type is nearby and so if it has a certain level of production/input?
05:14<nielsm>could maybe be interesting if keeping a power plant supplied allowed manufacturing nearby to benefit
05:16<andythenorth>it can check for existence
05:16<nielsm>also can an industry check the size of its associated town (or how much population is within some radius of it)? because recycling depot should really have output depending on the population it supports
05:16<andythenorth>but not supply
05:16<andythenorth>recycling depot does exactly that ;)
05:16<nielsm>ah cool!
05:17<andythenorth>there was a spec for town registers for a while
05:17<nielsm>the documentation should probably say so somewhere
05:17<andythenorth>not sure if it was implemented
05:17<andythenorth>but electricity is best handled by writing to a town register
05:17<andythenorth>power supply 0-16
05:17<andythenorth>then let industry read that
05:20<andythenorth>hmm
05:20<andythenorth>without packaging, the aggriculture chains are very one dimensionals
05:21<nielsm>aluminium + fruit -> cannery
05:21<andythenorth>something like that
05:23<andythenorth>ok BBL
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05:24<TrueBrain>omg, a spammer on github ... did not expect that! :P
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05:49<andythenorth_>nielsm so fruit + cans = ???? :)
05:49<andythenorth_>food is not in this economy
05:49<nielsm>that's just food
05:49<nielsm>hmm
05:49<nielsm>non-perishable food?
05:50<andythenorth_>canned food?
05:50<nielsm>probably yes
05:50<nielsm>canned food compared to certain other kinds of food can be transported for longer without losing value...
05:51<andythenorth_>+1
05:51<andythenorth_>where do sausages fit in this picture? :p
05:51<nielsm>and then you have surströmming which must be transported for at least 6 months before it has value to deliver!!
05:52<andythenorth_>is that rotten fish?
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05:52<nielsm>yes
05:52<andythenorth_>Yeah, I might put the fish back in
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure that is how they make it, they put it on trucks and drive it around for 6 months
05:52<nielsm>recommended you open the can submerged in a bucket of water, in the middle of a forest, wearing a rebreather
05:53<andythenorth_>I’ve seen the YT videos
05:54<andythenorth_>salt cod?
05:54<andythenorth_>sun-dried tomatos?
05:54<nielsm>well there is the norwegian "linje akvavit", a spirit whose selling point is that the barrels have matured on board a seagoing ship
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>"vegan food"
05:54<andythenorth_>is it weird to not have baked goods?
05:55<andythenorth_>instead bakery is black hole
05:55<Wolf01>If you put bakeries in cities then fine
05:55<andythenorth_>also there are no non-alcoholic drinks
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>water+sugar=soda
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>(+some really minor additives so they can call it "orange")
05:57<andythenorth_>chlorine + soda ash -> waterworks
05:57<Wolf01>And carbonation
05:57<andythenorth_>industrial gases?
05:57<andythenorth_>cryo plant?
05:57<Wolf01>Pollution
05:57<Wolf01>And biters attacks
05:57<Wolf01>Ops wrong game :P
05:58<andythenorth_>sewage -> waterworks
05:58<andythenorth_>pollution is original sim city
05:58<andythenorth_>or was that brownouts?
05:59<andythenorth_>not sure any of this works, industries in town don’t work great :D
05:59<andythenorth_>and nobody needs 1k tonnes of yoghurt per month
05:59<nielsm>paper mill -> paper packaging, paper packaging goes to dairy
05:59<nielsm>and butcher's shop
05:59<andythenorth_>tetrapak?
05:59<nielsm>like that yeah
06:00<andythenorth_>cheese paper
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure the version of sim city i played had pollution
06:00<andythenorth_>can I abuse tile acceptance?
06:00<nielsm>I think simcity has always had a more or less abstract simulation of pollution
06:00<andythenorth_>to get 12 cargos into 4x4 supermarket?
06:01<andythenorth_>or does that not work right?
06:01<nielsm>even in the original simcity residential was bad too close to industry
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>i think you'll have trouble putting that large of an industry in a town
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>the acceptance will work, but the industry graph will not be correct
06:02<andythenorth_>hmm
06:02<nielsm>glass works -> bottles -> distillery, dairy, cannery
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06:03<andythenorth_>so 48 cargos or 64? o_O
06:03<Wolf01>Go for 64
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>what if it ends up as 53?
06:03<andythenorth_>I think it’s unwise :p
06:03<Wolf01>You want it extreme
06:03<andythenorth_>eddi my bet is 56
06:04<Wolf01>I bet 63
06:04<andythenorth_>FIRS Unplayable
06:05<andythenorth_>so detergent, or household chemicals?
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06:05<andythenorth_>also, medicines, as low weight, high value?
06:06<andythenorth_>glue? from stockyard?
06:07<andythenorth_>toys?
06:07<nielsm>household chemicals is better imo
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>is that actually how that is produced, or just a meme you tell children when they ask where horses go?
06:07<andythenorth_>lego factory
06:07<Wolf01>^
06:07<nielsm>modern glue is mostly synthetic
06:07<nielsm>polymer based
06:07<andythenorth_>glue is/was often rendered from gelatine
06:07<andythenorth_>sweet factory?
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>gummy bears
06:08<andythenorth_>hah hah I can do something here for toyland fans :)
06:08<Wolf01>Put amusement parks
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06:08<Wolf01>With water slides when near of the coasts
06:08<andythen_>big chunk of toyland
06:09<andythen_>cola, batteries, plastic, toys, sugar
06:09<Wolf01>But less toyish
06:09<nielsm>but without the battery farms and sugar mines
06:10<Wolf01>*Industry graph explodes*
06:11<andythen_>tesla are building battery farms, no?
06:11<Wolf01>It's a factory
06:11<nielsm>I don't think the batteries literally grow from the ground :)
06:11<andythen_>are batteries a good cargo?
06:11<nielsm>too specific imo
06:12<Wolf01>But you can make salt and lithium farms
06:12<andythen_>salt is already in....
06:12<Wolf01>Lithium then
06:12<andythen_>lithium is mined?
06:13<Wolf01>Extracted from ponds
06:13<andythen_>electronics factory
06:14<andythen_>but the big question
06:14<andythen_>tractor plant, or not?
06:14<andythen_>try saying it in Russian accent also
06:14<Wolf01>FMSP?
06:14<andythen_>tractor plant
06:14<Wolf01>In mother russia the tractors make you
06:14<andythen_>traktor
06:15<andythen_>currently in
06:15<andythen_>but only accepts steel
06:15<andythen_>vpts, as import?
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>in the 1930s, germany sent "tractor parts" into the soviet union
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>when assembled, those became tanks, that were used to train the german army without technically violating the versailles treaty
06:16<andythen_>lol
06:16<andythen_>etc
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06:16<andythen_>FIRS used to have ‘parts’
06:16<andythen_>maybe it’s time to restore it :p
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>parts of what?
06:17<andythen_>exactly :p
06:17<@Alberth>firs?
06:17<Wolf01>Parts.
06:17<andythen_>it didn’t work
06:17<andythen_>but I need conponents now for traktors
06:17<@Alberth>every citizen a tractor?
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>so "machine parts"
06:18<andythen_>yes
06:18<Wolf01>Lego parts?
06:18<andythen_>there isn’t room to produce them in detail
06:18<Wolf01>:(
06:18<andythen_>can be imported
06:18<Wolf01>Make a lego economy
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>3D-printed?
06:18<andythen_>Traktor Plant
06:19<Wolf01>With 62 types of parts (other cargos are chemicals and plastic)
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: that's almost as bad as the minecraft economy :p
06:19<Wolf01>:D
06:20<Wolf01>Skeleton spawner -> arrows, bones -> bone meal -> crops
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06:20<andythen_> red traktors
06:20<andythen_>blue traktora
06:20<andythen_>green traktors
06:21<Wolf01>Tokens to build and run things, like mashinky
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>do they correspond with the food you can harvest with them?
06:21<andythen_>fmsp from fishing harbour (bone meal)
06:23<andythen_>cows need red tractors eddi
06:24<andythen_>the farms are colour coded already :)
06:25<Wolf01>I always thought that tractors were coloured by brand
06:26<andythen_>that too
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06:34<Eddi|zuHause>the red tractor is obviously the fastest
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06:38<andythenorth_>hmm I am at Tesco
06:38<andythenorth_>we need 2048 cargos
06:39<Wolf01>Oh, looking for inspiration?
06:40<andythenorth_>:p
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06:51<andythenorth_>about 25% of shop is canned or bottled
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07:11<andythenorth_>jam
07:11<nielsm>I'd argue jam falls under "cannery" goods
07:13<nielsm>prepare fruit/vegetables, do some kind of cooking/heat treatment, put into sealed vessels ready for retail
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07:18<Wolf01>https://tech.slashdot.org/story/18/07/15/0035234/chrome-is-using-10-13-more-ram-to-fight-spectre ha... even more ram
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07:22<@Alberth>:)
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07:47<TrueBrain>closing tickets like there is no tomorrow!
07:47<TrueBrain>2 tickets about BaNaNaS in 1 day \o/ :D
07:49<@planetmaker>o/
07:49<@planetmaker><3 your closing reply, TB :)
07:51<TrueBrain>:)
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07:56<Eddi|zuHause>man, i made this crazy complicated contraption in spacechem, but i need to exactly flip it, to use the other input :/
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07:59<Eddi|zuHause>ah, i think i don't need to do that after all
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>now, i got laser and rocket fuel working, just the steering left
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09:04<Eddi|zuHause>bah, i need to get the ratios better... per 2 rocket explosives i need 15 rocket fuel. per 2 rocket explosives i get 4 rocket fuel as byproduct. per 1 laser charge i get 9 rocket explosives (and thus 18 rocket fuel) as byproduct, plus another 6 rocket fuel
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>thus i get a surplus of rocket explosives, and my storage runs full halfway through
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>i need 2:15 but i have 9:24
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09:07<Eddi|zuHause>and i can't put another storage anywhere
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09:09<Eddi|zuHause>i think i need to use the laser as waste disposal for the surplus explosives
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>which means i need another reactor, which i can't have
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09:17<andythenorth>hmm
09:17<andythenorth>rocket fuel in FIRS Extreme
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09:27<Eddi|zuHause>now i don't think i get enough reactor outputs :/
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09:40<Eddi|zuHause>i need to completely trash this attempt :/
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>and i thought i was so close :/
09:40<Wolf01>I found it difficult even to finish the tutorial
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>this is the last level :/
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>the tutorial was fine
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>i first ran into trouble by the time they introduced fusion
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>and then polymers
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>and then it went into "completely insane" mode :p
09:43<@Alberth>spacenomy
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>and then it introduces a new control node that you facepalm as "well, i could have used that _last_ level"
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10:42<Eddi|zuHause>so, i'm now at 6 rocket explosives per 1 laser charge
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10:43<Eddi|zuHause>now i need a reaction that collects surplus elements, until a laser charge is available to dispose of them
10:49<SpComb>almost sounds as if you were talking about factorio, but no
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>worse :p
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>imagine factorio, but you are limited to an 8x10 map
10:53<Wolf01>Now I understand why I only played the tutorial last time :P
10:56<andythenorth>why coffee in FIRS, but not tea?
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11:03<Wolf01>Good question
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11:15<andythenorth>another way to think about this, which town cargos would look good?
11:15<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
11:15<andythenorth>currently food is piece, refrigerated, and goes in box trucks or fridge trucks
11:16<andythenorth>now there are 6 cargos that go in box trucks or fridge trucks
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12:32<Alkel_U3>Hello. What the heck happened 2:09 GMT today?
12:40<peter1138>I don't know, what the heck did happen at 2:09 GMT today?
12:42<Wolf01>Did 2:09 GMT happen?
12:44<andythenorth>I think it got missed
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12:55<Eddi|zuHause>i don't even know when 2:09GMT was
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12:56<LordAro>pretty sure nothing happened at 0209GMT today
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>i guess that is usually a time where nothing happens anyway
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13:20<snail_UES_>guys, I’m getting a strange bug if I try to start a game with both my trainset and Uwe’s German Road Vehicles set
13:20<snail_UES_>I’m getting an error message such as: “Fatal error : requested GRF ressource not available (sprite 498)”
13:20<snail_UES_>and one of our sets (the one towards the bottom of the newGRF list) gets deactivated
13:21<snail_UES_>I tried running OTTD in debug mode, and I got the following error messages:
13:21<snail_UES_>“ dbg: [grf] [germanrvw.grf:53] ParamSet: GRM: Unable to allocate 1792 sprites; try changing NewGRF order “ <— if I put my trainset first
13:22<snail_UES_>“ dbg: [grf] [fsetw_j.grf:498] ParamSet: GRM: Unable to allocate 8704 sprites; try changing NewGRF order “ <— if I put Uwe’s road vehicle set first
13:22<snail_UES_>I think it’s because we’re both allocating a very large number of recoloring sprites...
13:22<@Alberth>sounds likely
13:23<snail_UES_>any ideas on how to fix this? (I mean any idea other than the old “you don’t need all those sprites” story)
13:24<FLHerne>`if (_cur.spriteid + count >= 16384) {` it says
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>snail_UES_: germanrv set reserves a crazy number of sprites for recolouring, i think
13:24<snail_UES_>Eddi|zuHause: yes, and so does mine
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>seems like you hit some kind of limit?
13:24<snail_UES_>but neither of us (and not even the sum) reaches 16,384
13:24<@Alberth>Line above says: "Check if the allocated sprites will fit below the original sprite limit "
13:25<frosch123>the baseset sprites also count towards the limit
13:25<frosch123>anyway, 16k recolour sprites is silly
13:26<frosch123>better use multiple stacked sprites with different recolouring
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>limitation disturbs me very sprites...
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose stacked sprites were not available when snail_UES_ started :p
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13:28<snail_UES_>eddi|zuHause: exactly
13:29<snail_UES_>stacked sprites help a lot, but they came into the play fairly recently and I’d have to reprogram large parts of my set to fully use them...
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>should have used a code generator :p
13:30<snail_UES_>it’s not that easy
13:30<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the code generator is named "snail" :)
13:30<andythenorth>disable if german RV set is found?
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no need for that, the error disables it automatically :p
13:31<frosch123>"can't use imperial german vehicles with imperial french trains"?
13:32<andythenorth>is it potatos or potatoes?
13:32<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i get the impression that potatoes won
13:33<andythenorth>I have a typo then
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>don't take my word for it, though
13:34<andythenorth>it's potatoes
13:34<andythenorth>and is it a greengrocers or a greengrocer's?
13:34<andythenorth>https://wordsgoingwild.blogspot.com/2010/01/greengrocers-apostrophe.html
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>i've never seen anyone use tht word
13:45<peter1138>They barely exist these days :(
13:45<peter1138>Supermarkets killed 'em
13:45<snail_UES_>there still are farmers’ markets though
13:46<snail_UES_>OMG andythenorth, are you adding new cargoes again? :O
13:48<frosch123>more cargo recolourings?
13:48<snail_UES_>\well at least I’m using stacked sprites for those :p
13:48<snail_UES_>more coding work to support them all...
13:51<andythenorth>snail_UES_: someone increased the cargo limit to 64 :P
13:52<snail_UES_>funny
13:52<snail_UES_>so it’s ok to increase cargo limit...
13:52<snail_UES_>but it’s not ok to increase the railtypes limit :D
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14:08<Wolf01>Exactly, the boss here is andythenorth
14:10<snail_UES_>I actually feel this is far from a constructive behavior...
14:11<snail_UES_>IMO that’s why people end up playing with patchpacks
14:12<Wolf01>That's even encouraged
14:15<snail_UES_>yes… that’s why I’m going to recommend JGR’s patchpack to play with my set :p
14:16<Wolf01>Fine, supermop recommends NRT to play with trolleybi :P
14:16<Wolf01>BTW /me -> out
14:17<@Alberth>bye W
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14:29<andythenorth>snail_UES_: who says it's not ok to increase the railtype limit? o_O
14:29<andythenorth>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6805
14:30<andythenorth>nobody's approved it mind
14:31<snail_UES_>ok… so what can we do to make this happen?
14:32<andythenorth>my strategy is usually just hope
14:32<andythenorth>and provide humour
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure anybody is helped with british humour
14:33<andythenorth>it helps me
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14:38<peter1138>Hah
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14:39<peter1138>Clearly no other dev wants it :p
14:40<snail_UES_>looks like there’s little interest in helping newgrf authors :p
14:47<andythenorth>one day someone will get bored and commit it
14:47<andythenorth>and then we'll have a debate about why it was so much fuss
14:47<andythenorth>but eh :P
14:53<andythenorth>maybe nielsm will review it? :)
14:54<snail_UES_>heh, that would be great...
14:55<andythenorth>so new FIRS Extreme snail_UES_ http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
14:55<andythenorth>any requests? o_O
14:55<andythenorth>this is first draft, incomplete
14:55<andythenorth>aim is 'city chaos'
14:56<andythenorth>it seems to be Germany-Poland currently
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think the typical request of a vehicle set developer is "ZOMG LEAVE IT ALONE ALREADY!!!!" :p
14:56<snail_UES_>andythenorth: the final list of all cargoes and their classes would help a lot :)
14:56<andythenorth>snail_UES_: funny, but come back in 12 months ;)
14:56<snail_UES_>haha
14:56<snail_UES_>I’m all for supporting it, but it needs to be final...
14:56<andythenorth>any french cargos you can suggest?
14:56<andythenorth>I already added fromage
14:57<snail_UES_>I wouldn’t like to spend time coding cargoes that later disappear
14:57<snail_UES_>yes, cheese can be a subset of dairy products I guess
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14:57<snail_UES_>fruit should go to a distillery as well I think…?
14:57<andythenorth>it might
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>snail_UES_: giant rolls of cheese on a stake wagon? :p
14:57<andythenorth>I considered tobacco
14:57<andythenorth>also
14:57<andythenorth>but no
14:58<snail_UES_>no vehicles?
14:58<andythenorth>traktors
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>i give tobacco another decade or so and it's banned...
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>maybe two
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>but it's clearly coming
14:59<andythenorth>I think it will just get hard to buy
14:59<snail_UES_>andythenorth: tractors in steeltown, right?
14:59<andythenorth>trucks in steeltown
14:59<snail_UES_>for ECS, I coded “vehicles” as many subtypes, distinguishing 4 different carmakers :p
15:00<snail_UES_>but I won’t be able to use it in FIRS, since vehicles are only trucks or tractors...
15:02<nielsm>andythenorth nah I don't feel confident about anything relating to the map array at all, haven't touched any of those parts of the code yet
15:03<andythenorth>maybe I could do this with my van http://www.railpictures.net/photo/664391/
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15:07<snail_UES_>nielsm: but it works in JGR patch.. is this a different implementation?
15:08<nielsm>I have no idea
15:08<peter1138>What works in JGR?
15:08<nielsm>if I've ever used JGRs patch it would be like 5-7 years ago
15:09<snail_UES_>32 railtypes
15:09<nielsm>don't know if it even existed then
15:09<peter1138>Oh, yes, that's a different implementation.
15:09<peter1138>(One that we rejected, though I had (separately) already done it that way)
15:12<LordAro>what was different about it? why was it rejected?
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15:13<peter1138>It's the one that splits the field up.
15:14<andythenorth>oh the untidy bits version?
15:17<LordAro>ah right
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure how, but i finally managed to finish this crazy game...
15:34<andythenorth>👻👍
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes, two white blocks back to you, sir.
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15:51<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: Translation: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/Screenshot_20180715_215036.png
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 16 00:00:37 2018