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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-07-20

---Logopened Fri Jul 20 00:00:42 2018
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02:50<imdak>Hey. Anyone here has some information on bananas2?
03:02<LordAro>imdak: pretty much all the information is either here or in frosch's head
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03:57<andythenorth>beans, fruit, salt, tinplate -> cannery -> food
03:57<andythenorth>but only 3 cargos in
03:58<andythenorth>so eh
03:59<andythenorth>probably the salt isn't used in industrial quantities
04:02<andythenorth>1 cup salt per gallon water in canning
04:02<andythenorth>not relevant
04:02<andythenorth>and if salt is needed, then so is vinegar and/or sugar
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04:22<TrueBrain>lol .. kubernetes does certificate validation on hostname .. dammit :D
04:23<TrueBrain>why did they do their security correctly! :P
04:35<Sacro_>TrueBrain: because otherwise you'd be complaining that it wasn't doing it
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04:36<TrueBrain>hell yes :D
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05:12<TrueBrain>YES! CD works :D
05:12<TrueBrain>when I push, the image rolls over in the kubernetes cluster :D
05:18<andythenorth>super duper!
05:19<TrueBrain>kubernetes is nice :) Removes a whole layer of configuration-interpertation :)
05:19<LordAro>now make it do a flip
05:19<andythenorth>I was always curious what kubernetes does
05:20<andythenorth>twitter just says things like 'I threw it on kubernetes and made $5m overnight'
05:20<TrueBrain>to say it disrespectful, kubernetes is a big management layer in front of docker
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>everybody do the flop!
05:21<TrueBrain>a bit less disrespectful, it manages containers
05:21<TrueBrain>(the full life-cycle)
05:21<TrueBrain>which is exactly what you want for a CD
05:21<TrueBrain>I just tell kubernetes what the end-result should be, and he goes to fix that forme
05:21<TrueBrain>so I tell him: this pod, I want it to run image N
05:22<TrueBrain>and he says: sure thing boss, and starts to make that happen with the minimal amount of downtime possible
05:26<andythenorth>pretty clever
05:26<andythenorth>like automating your sysadmin, and less hassle :P
05:28*andythenorth watches with interest
05:28<andythenorth>we currently run bare in VMs managed by ansible, no containers
05:29<andythenorth>but that might change
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>"always good if i can automate away a human job i have to pay" :p
05:29<TrueBrain>ansible is a good alternative tbh
05:29<TrueBrain>just a lot more complex to maintain
05:37<LordAro>awful lot simpler to set up though
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05:44<Eddi|zuHause>as long as for every hour it takes to set up, you save 10 hours of maintenance...
06:04<TrueBrain>right, that was a nice conversation with GCP .. they are now going to see what they can do for us
06:05<TrueBrain>Turns out that if you move our current infrastructure to GCP, it costs ~1100 euro per month :D
06:05<LordAro>that is some monies
06:05<TrueBrain>well, you dont know the real value till you run it, I guess
06:05<TrueBrain>but that is the problem :D
06:05<TrueBrain>we will see :)
06:06<TrueBrain>I also realised I have no idea how much bandwidth we use outside BaNaNaS :D
06:06<TrueBrain>this mainly as that is 90% of our traffic :P
06:07<TrueBrain>anyway .. time to get my GitHub Apps into a pod too .. and see if I can make him auto-updatable :D
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>but if you don't know how much it is, how do you know it's 90%? :p
06:08<TrueBrain>LordAro: feel like looking over my latest code? Any feedback is welcome :)
06:08<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: okay, let me rephrase: once when I did measure it, it was that ratio, so I stopped to care :D
06:08<LordAro>i'm currently xkcd 303ing, so sure :)
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's compiling?
06:09<TrueBrain>I will not merge those PRs btw; I will create new repos under OpenTTD to put the code there :)
06:13<TrueBrain>but the temperature in this room reached a high-point again, so I am off for a few hours :P Fucking heatwave :(
06:13<peter1138>IT'S GETTING HOT IN HERE
06:13<peter1138>AND GET ARRESTED COS
06:13<peter1138>NOBODY WANTS TO SEE THAT
06:14<TrueBrain>you jealous!
06:14<peter1138>yes ;(
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>i should probably actually take off my clothes
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>(and take a shower)
06:15<TrueBrain>you do that!
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07:04<andythenorth>it's only just hot enough TBH
07:04<andythenorth>I think I live in the wrong latitude
07:04<andythenorth>30 degrees C is about right
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08:29<TrueBrain>okay ... slowly this is starting to work .. now pods need to be able to connect to the outside world ...
08:30<andythenorth>wat it's V453000
08:30<andythenorth>must be Friday
08:32<V453000>Actually yeah it is, but that's random today
08:33<V453000>how are you?
08:39<TrueBrain>its only random today; how about n ext week? :D
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>it randomly decided to be friday?
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>wtf have i been doing the whole week?
08:54<V453000>no it's random that I appeared here :D
08:54<V453000>friday has nothing to do with it in other words
08:54<andythenorth>V453000: I am rekking FIRS
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09:02<LordAro>TrueBrain: didn't see anything signifcant
09:02<TrueBrain>unusual, but tnx :D
09:02<LordAro>you overestimate my review ability :p
09:02<TrueBrain>or my own capabilities :P
09:02<LordAro>especially on "higher level" design stuff
09:03<TrueBrain>duplication is indeed true, but I didnt want to make a library between the two
09:03<TrueBrain>and it totally misses unit tests :D
09:04<LordAro>with async stuff it's really easy to end up mocking everything out so you're basically testing nothing at all
09:04<TrueBrain>yeah .... that is why I didnt add any yet tbh ... 90% will be testing-for-testing
09:04<TrueBrain>but the 10% is interesting
09:04<crem2>What's new happend in openttd world during last year?
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>first nothing then everything
09:06<LordAro>pretty much
09:06<crem2>No new features since 1.7.0 ?
09:07<andythenorth>what makes you say that? o_O
09:07<crem2> <- this
09:07<andythenorth>oh the wiki
09:07<LordAro>yeah, sorry i've been slacking
09:07<andythenorth>we should really delete that eh
09:07<andythenorth>stupid manual duplication
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>first rule of wiki: the wiki is outdated
09:08<andythenorth>waste of human ingenuity
09:08<crem2>What is the canonical way to get human readable changelog?
09:08<LordAro>also that
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>there should be a readme link next to the download link
09:08<crem2>Vertical separators! \o/
09:08<andythenorth>all this outdated crap from before software was sane :P
09:08<TrueBrain>whoho, my pods can talk to the interwebz now :D:D
09:08<FLHerne>Not sure if sarcastic or not sarcastic...
09:09<LordAro>TrueBrain: quick download all the pronz
09:09<FLHerne>But really, those are pretty useful
09:09<andythenorth>what's useful? Separators?
09:09<andythenorth>I campaigned for those :)
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09:09<andythenorth>they have an interesting total failure if you scroll the depot window horizontally :D
09:09<crem2>I'm not sure either. :) Why is better build script a feature rather than change?.
09:10<crem2>I mean I wanted new feature from player's perspective. :)
09:11<andythenorth>fair point
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>i guess what's "feature" and what's "change" is pretty fuzzy and mostly depends on the mood of the developer on the day
09:11<andythenorth>don't think anyone does the player-centric release
09:11<andythenorth>at work we have the changelog, and the customer-facing changelog
09:12<LordAro>mm, that one probably shouldn't have been a feature tbh
09:12<andythenorth>"Feature: [Build] MSVC 2017 project file generator. Most noticeable, std:c++latest is enabled"
09:12<andythenorth>that's a codechange
09:12<andythenorth>just an admin mistake
09:12<andythenorth>somebody should rewrite that commit :P
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09:12<LordAro>but codechanges don't go in the changelogs!
09:12<LordAro>and someone was clearly proud of it
09:12<andythenorth>or in a hurry
09:14<crem2>Good old 0.7.0 times when changelog had 2 pages of real features. :)
09:14<andythenorth>such nostalgia
09:17*andythenorth reading 0.7.0 commits
09:17<andythenorth>so many fixes
09:18<andythenorth>it's almost like quality used to be quite low
09:19<TrueBrain>yippie, my runner can now connect to my github :D Okay ... getting there ... slllooowwwwwllllyyyyy
09:25<andythenorth>big features hiding behind small changelog items
09:25<andythenorth>"Feature: Downloading content from a central server ( where authors can upload their NewGRFS/AI etc."
09:26<andythenorth>"Feature: An AI framework so people can write their own AIs."
09:26<andythenorth>"Feature: Path based signalling"
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>so turns out constructing Belite is easier than Alite
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>that's going to be a headache
09:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: are you doing some actual chemistry?
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>not really :p
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09:31<andythenorth>such things I never knew :P
09:32<andythenorth>I knew about Ferrite, but not why
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09:40<Eddi|zuHause>i was totally confusing that with pyrite right now
09:51<andythenorth>tinplate or aluminium for cannery
09:51<andythenorth>not both
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>you have both as cargo already?
09:53<andythenorth>tinplate is more accurate for canning food
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09:54<testuser987>Hello, can someone please explain why the left train is waiting?
09:54<testuser987>Is it because the train in the station could possibly turn around (for whatever reason) and crash into the left train?
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10:07<TrueBrain>those small minor annoying things with stuff like kubernetes ... so I have these configuration files you can apply to your cluster
10:07<TrueBrain>that is perfect, as it tells what you want it to be, and he takes care of it
10:08<TrueBrain>you can also set the docker image for a pod to a certain value .. what I do, is use the sha to tag the image with, so I can set the pod to the image I want ..
10:08<TrueBrain>just .... when I apply my configuration again, it rolls back to what-ever was defined in the configuration files
10:08<TrueBrain>instead of the one currently active
10:08<TrueBrain>totally makes sense ... but allowing both ...
10:08<TrueBrain>means you have to drag in other stuff to allow that
10:09<TrueBrain>I want to "apply-but-ignore-changes-in"
10:09<andythenorth>fall through to default
10:09<@Alberth>add magic sprinkles, and done
10:10<TrueBrain>and so many people ask for a solution .. but except for 'sed', none is given
10:10<TrueBrain>(and sed is terrible)
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>awk is way better :p
10:12<@Alberth>parse file, change it, write it again?
10:12<FLHerne>testuser987: Because path signals only clear when a path can be reserved to the next signal
10:12<TrueBrain>I was not talking about the program sed, but about what it does :)
10:12<TrueBrain>silly-beans :)
10:12<FLHerne>(or the end of a line)
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>i was imagining something like "hook this script into the config file loading that filters out the things it shouldn't change"
10:12<FLHerne>testuser987: And the train already in the platform is holding a reservation that would block that
10:13<FLHerne>testuser987: Enable "show path reservations" in the settings, it'll help you understand
10:13<@Alberth>I was suggesting a better plan than sed, I thought
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>but i have no clue what you're actually trying to do
10:13<TrueBrain>bit the issue is that I try to synchronize what the cluster knows, and what is on my file-system ..
10:13<LordAro>TrueBrain: is this
10:13<TrueBrain>LordAro: is what what?
10:13<LordAro>15:08:37 < TrueBrain> just .... when I apply my configuration again, it rolls back to what-ever...
10:14<TrueBrain>no, I was tlaking about kubernetes
10:14<LordAro>oh yes, i see
10:14<LordAro>i hadn't read up that far :p
10:14<TrueBrain>maybe I should be a bit more clear: in the configuration files, is something like: image openttd/dorpsgek-github
10:14<TrueBrain>runtime I set it to another tag
10:14<FLHerne>testuser987: (solution: add signals between the platforms and the junction)
10:14<TrueBrain>the configuration file doesn't know about the tag .. and adding that is adding another layer ..
10:14<TrueBrain>there are solutions for that ... but .. yet-another-piece-of-software-doing-a-thing
10:15<TrueBrain>and all I want to say it: apply this new configuration, but ignore any difference in tag!
10:16<@Alberth>right, without telling that image was changed
10:16<@Alberth>any reason why you don't specify the runtime setting in the file always, ie have one configuration?
10:17<TrueBrain>because using 'set image' is a one-liner to change the current tag running
10:17<TrueBrain>very elegant, very simple
10:17<testuser987>FLHerne: I thought a reservation would be removed right after a train left the track, but that does not seem to be true here?
10:17<TrueBrain>the full configuration lives in a completely different place
10:17<@Alberth>or, how does the new configuration what not to touch?
10:17<FLHerne>testuser987: It is, but the first train hasn't left yet
10:17<FLHerne>testuser987: The conflict is at the top-right junction
10:18<TrueBrain>basically, 'kubectl apply' is declerative .. you tell it how it should look, fully and completely
10:18<FLHerne>Reservations can't be to a station, only a signal or end-of-line
10:18<TrueBrain>than runtime the CD adds to that 'kubectl set image' to roll out new versions of a single pod
10:18<TrueBrain>with the exact same configuration
10:18<TrueBrain>which is awesome
10:18<TrueBrain>now just when you run 'kubectl apply' again .. it of course rolls back the version
10:18<TrueBrain>which totally make sense from what the commands are suppose to do
10:18<FLHerne>So the second train needs to reserve to one of the signals beyond the station, but can't do so because the first train has a conflicting reservation
10:19<TrueBrain>it is just a lot easier if the workflow allowed 'kubectl apply' to skip this one difference: different tag :)
10:19<FLHerne>(do enable that setting, it'll help)
10:19<TrueBrain>now I need to use something that updates the configuration with the current tag, before applying
10:19<@Alberth>or update tag from the configuration
10:20<testuser987>FLHerne: this means if a track splits in two directions (left and right), if the first train goes left, a second train can not pass the splitting until the first train passed a signal?
10:20<TrueBrain>the process changing the image tag has no knowledge of the full configuration
10:20<FLHerne>testuser987: Not at all, that works fine
10:20<TrueBrain>(the full configuration is locked behind several keys, so to say)
10:20<@Alberth>hmm, making it complicated eh? :)
10:20<TrueBrain>(there is no rollback for configuration; there is for image tags changing)
10:21<TrueBrain>well, in my mind it was piss-easy
10:21<TrueBrain>I just need 1 simple thing added to 'kubectl apply' :D
10:21<testuser987>OK, but in my image, we do have a splitting, and the first train passed that splitting already :)
10:21<FLHerne>testuser987: The splitting isn't the problem. The junction top-right is the problem
10:22<@Alberth>yeah, seemingly easy and real easy are not always the same, unfortunately
10:22<TrueBrain>nope :(
10:22<testuser987>FLHerne: oh! I'm seeing it now...
10:22<testuser987>Thanks :)
10:22<@Alberth>so how does sed help? unless you need to unlock it all
10:22<TrueBrain>and than people yell: use helm, which is bringing a gun to a pillow-fight solution
10:23<TrueBrain>you can do in your configuration file: image: openttd/dorpsgek-github:DORPGEK_GITHUB_TAG
10:23<@Alberth>big guns typically work :p
10:23<TrueBrain>and replace that tag with sed to the 'running' version
10:23<TrueBrain>(which you can request)
10:23<@Alberth>moving some config away from the config
10:23<TrueBrain>making a template from your configuration
10:23<TrueBrain>which .. sucks balls :D
10:24<testuser987>FLHerne: exactly... if the second train would enter your station, there would be nothing holding them from colliding at the right junction
10:24<@Alberth>can't drop that part of the configuration?
10:24<TrueBrain>nope :(
10:24<TrueBrain>(I did try that :D)
10:25<FLHerne>testuser987: Yep, just needs signals at the other end before the junction
10:25<@Alberth>or it defaults to something you don't want, perhaps
10:25<TrueBrain>basically, the configuration will have two parts: one in github, describing the boring details, and 1 in the system, the tag currently running
10:25<TrueBrain>no, if you dont enter it, it refuses the configuration
10:26<@Alberth>can you read the current tag. and replace it? still far from perfect though
10:27<TrueBrain>that is the sed solution, basically
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>so basically you need a temporary config file that contains the current data?
10:28<@Alberth>have several configs?
10:28<TrueBrain>it seems you cannot complement a config
10:28<TrueBrain>it has to be correct and in full
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10:29<@Alberth>except with a sed hole :p
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10:31<Eddi|zuHause>and the config file cannot contain a "read $SHELLVARIABLE"-style entry?
10:31<TrueBrain>not that I know
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>then really, you need a temporary copy of the file and sed the shellvariable part in
10:32<andythenorth>what can I call a specialist chemical factory?
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of chemical?
10:32<andythenorth>ammonia, soda ash, lye -> [industry] -> food additives, detergents
10:33<andythenorth>irl they don't exist
10:33<andythenorth>but it's convenient
10:33<nielsm>Industrial lab
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>and "chemical plant" is too generic?
10:33<andythenorth>already exists
10:33<andythenorth>it was 'detergent factory', then I learnt that ammonia, soda ash and lye are all used in food production
10:33<andythenorth>but in relativel small amounts
10:34*andythenorth was researching baking :P
10:34<andythenorth>it could be two industries, but that seems redundant
10:34<@Alberth>wrong season, but nice :)
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>no, the "food quality" production line would just be a side line in the production facility
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>i programmed a plant like this
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, vaguely
10:36<andythenorth>so the chemical plant processes salt -> chlorine, lye
10:36<andythenorth>that could be renamed 'salt processor'
10:36<andythenorth>but eh
10:36<andythenorth>it affects more than one economy, cascading changes :(
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>they produce CaCl2 solution as additive for winter services, and as secondary line they made food-quality stuff
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>"chemical plant 2"
10:39<TrueBrain>meh; so I really have to make a template around the configuration .. *sad panda*
10:39<@Alberth>baking supplies, but that's somewhat confusing
10:39<@Alberth>or extend the system, but that may be more non-trivial
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>the food quality stuff is basically the same, just they have stricter rules on purity
10:45<nielsm>Production lab?
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10:46<@Alberth>I would call that "explosives factory"
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10:56<andythenorth>that's the ammonia plant :P
10:56<andythenorth>eh no, fertiliser factory
10:56<andythenorth>names are hard :P
10:56<andythenorth>'place', 'thing'
10:57<andythenorth>I actually want two places for food additives, because salt also
10:57<andythenorth>unless we patch for 4 input cargos :P
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11:14<andythenorth>how to make vinegar?
11:14<andythenorth>grain -> vinegar?
11:14<andythenorth>oil -> vinegar?
11:14<andythenorth>alcohol -> vinegar?
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11:22<@Alberth>oil seems most logical to me
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>"The global demand for acetic acid is [...] manufactured from methanol."
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't seem much oil involved
11:38<TrueBrain>okay, service-accounts and permissions are awesome in kubernetes :D
11:39<TrueBrain>now all that is left, is a runner that can build dockers ...
11:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: thanks
11:45<andythenorth>chemical industry is very complex :P
11:45<nielsm>!seen peter1138
11:45<nielsm>no bot?
11:45<andythenorth>@seen peter1138
11:46<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: peter1138 was last seen in #openttd 5 hours, 31 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <peter1138> yes ;(
11:46<nielsm>oh different prefix
11:48<nielsm>was wondering if I should open a bug for the "win32 runs slightly slow" issue, and perhaps also the "linux sdl runs slightly fast" one
11:51<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so I have alcohol or grain available for acetic acid production, the destination will be food factories
11:51<andythenorth>leaning towards alcohol, it makes it a more interesting cargo
11:53<andythenorth>or I add methanol, which seems to come from coke production somehow :P
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12:02<andythenorth>or maybe it comes from gas
12:02*andythenorth finds wikipedia very confusing for chemical industry
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12:30<Eddi|zuHause>alcohol seems fine
12:31<andythenorth>I tried adding LPG as a chemical feedstock
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12:31<andythenorth>but it's very unclear how LPG would differ from existing 'petroleum fuel' cargo
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12:41<Eddi|zuHause>water treatment plant [primary industry, takes some chemicals as booster] -> waste products -> biofuel refinery -> fuel?
12:53<andythenorth>wondered about water treatment
12:53<andythenorth>chlorine is an obvious input
12:53<andythenorth>this is brown water treatment?
12:53<andythenorth>so the output is methane?
12:54<peter1138>nielsm, yeah might as well. iirc use the hrtimer works fine.
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12:58<nielsm>peter1138: I saw you have a branch where you experiment with doing some catchup of "missed" ticks, does that work properly or just break in weird ways?
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i was thinking sludge, and the refinery extracts the methane from that
12:58<peter1138>nielsm, it works afaik
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>and maybe building material :p
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>more likely fertilizer
12:59<peter1138>nielsm, maybe something was incomplete, i don't remember.
12:59<peter1138>"i have a patch/branch for that" ;(
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12:59<peter1138>been cycling too much, i guess
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13:34<peter1138>nielsm, hmm, I wonder if that patch also fixes the too-fast case
13:37<swedneck[m]>how do i get sound sets?
13:37<nielsm>I think your patch would make everything stick to slightly-too-fast
13:37<nielsm>(without having tested)
13:48<peter1138>swedneck[m], "online content" in game
13:49<swedneck[m]>why doesn't it just come with default ones?
13:50<peter1138>becuase you can download it easily from online content in game ;)
13:50<peter1138>historically, all graphics, sound and music came from the original TTD data files which you had to install separately, obviously.
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13:52<peter1138>And he returns.
13:53<andythenorth>had to cycle
13:54<andythenorth>quite hot in jeans
13:54<andythenorth>was trying to beat the rain
13:54<peter1138>Who even cycles in jeans? :S
13:54<LordAro>oh dear
13:54<andythenorth>I had shorts in my bag
13:54<andythenorth>but then it looked like rain, so I just pegged it home
13:55<peter1138>Shorts are better if it's wet. Legs dry off, jeans don't.
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>but imagine if the skin got wet!!
13:55<peter1138>Might dissolve!
13:56<andythenorth>the worst thing is waterproof trousers
13:56<andythenorth>the rain stays on the inside
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>waterproof sounds like the worst thing you can have when you sweat
13:57<LordAro>also, rain, what is this?
13:57<peter1138>Yeah, they suck.
13:57*peter1138 waits for this puny dual core to compile.
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>we're still talking about britain, right? where rain is all the times when it isn't foggy
13:58<andythenorth>except now
13:58<peter1138>It's been sunny and some people can't cope, it seems.
13:58<peter1138>Great weather for cycling, when wearing the right kit so that you cool off at speed.
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>dual core.. what is this, 2005?
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>every mom's phone has more than 2 cores nowadays...
14:03<andythenorth>I have 2 cores :(
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14:07<andythenorth>ethylene + acetic acid = glue
14:07<andythenorth>for wood
14:09<andythenorth>I now have about 15 industries labelled 'chemical plant' :P
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14:17<peter1138>nielsm, hmm, I also had a patch to use the hrtimer... wonder where that went.
14:23<peter1138>Found it, and yes that makes it 1.00x (mostly)
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14:29<@Alberth>o/ W
14:31<peter1138>1.00x and 1.01x. Hmm.
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15:23<Wolf01> sad
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15:28<andythenorth>clickbait :P
15:28<andythenorth>most of those are chile or former USSR :P
15:29<Wolf01>Still sad
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15:54<Eddi|zuHause>news are particularly bad today...
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>"beer brewers running out of bottles, because people are hoarding them in their cellar instead of bringing them back to the shops"
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16:01<andythenorth>sounds like a FIRS problem
16:02<andythenorth>so where are bottles made?
16:02<andythenorth>glass works, or dedicated factory?
16:03<swedneck[m]>is there a way to get 1.5x UI size or something?
16:03<nielsm>not quite
16:03<nielsm>you can use a larger font size
16:03<swedneck[m]>double size makes the settings window absolutely massive, and normal is barely readable
16:04<andythenorth>seems bottles are made by specialist suppliers
16:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: are bottles are legitimate cargo to produce in shops?
16:04<andythenorth>or are they produced by recycling plant?
16:04<andythenorth>(the returns)
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16:18<andythenorth>so food additives
16:18<andythenorth>the cargo label should be ENUM?
16:23<LordAro>andythenorth: :D
16:24<andythenorth>I thought so
16:25<V453000>so what's up with FIRS andythenorth
16:25<V453000>shit getting refactored to the ground?
16:26<Wolf01>Wants to hit 64 cargos
16:26<andythenorth>rekking extreme
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16:30<andythenorth>still very WIP
16:31<andythenorth>old extreme, hate it
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16:33<V453000>That looks like a big improvement to me, from quick glance so far
16:34<V453000>I'm not even attempting to count the amount of cargoes that NUTS won't display properly though :P
16:34<andythenorth>I mean it will be terrible
16:34<andythenorth>but at least it won't be wtf terrible
16:35<V453000>The bottom part is awesome
16:35<V453000>I don't see myself using Fruit Plantation, Sheep Farm or Dairy Farm
16:35<V453000>maybe if you make them worth a lot, they are fine as an early game money boost without long term investment as they don't get the supplies on their own
16:36*andythenorth wonders why the bundles version is outdated
16:36<andythenorth>jenkins just built it
16:38<andythenorth>baked bean factory forthcoming
16:39<V453000>It seem cool, I like it. It's madness, but that's what extreme should be
16:39<V453000>I'd consider tweaking the cargo payments in a way so that the farms which don't have the chance to get to farm supplies on their own get motivated the be used at least at the start of each company
16:40<andythenorth>I'll see
16:40<andythenorth>somewhere manure = fmsp somehow
16:40<V453000>Might also give the "I was a nice person at the start, liking people and sending them food, and then I industrialized the shit out of the region."
16:40<andythenorth>what label for manure V453000? :P
16:40<V453000>wtf is manure even
16:40<andythenorth>cow poo
16:40<andythenorth>DUNG, SHIT, CRAP, POOP
16:40<V453000>oh, actual shit
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16:41<V453000>POOP sounds politically acceptable enough
16:41<andythenorth>nice sound too
16:42<V453000>You probably know I'd name it SHIT
16:42<V453000>but :P
16:42<V453000>POOP is nice
16:42<V453000>as long as the full name is Actual Shit
16:42<nielsm>phosphor and oxygen?
16:43<V453000>extreme, yo
16:43<V453000>you can explain anything by that
16:43<V453000>It's the ultimate excuse
16:43<V453000>(just in case you need them)
16:44<V453000>You are exchanging BDMT for FOOD? :D
16:44<V453000>YETI 5X Exchange merchant lives :D
16:44<nielsm>need to have a BACN cargo
16:44<V453000>if hte Suppply Yard is a giant BDMT-eating slug, I'll send you a cake andythenorth
16:45<andythenorth>V453000: got a slug render?
16:45<andythenorth>might do it, but only when game month is april
16:45<andythenorth>easter egg for easter
16:45<andythenorth>easter slug :P
16:46<V453000>you can steal a slug from nuts if you feel like :P
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so biorefinery accepts manure (from dairy farm) and sludge (from water treatment plant) and produces fuel and fertilizer?
16:47<andythenorth>currently it's an ethanol plant, but eh
16:47<andythenorth>that could change
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>well, other than fuel it could be methane, which gets processed further?
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>the german word for fertilizer is "Dünger" which obviously comes from "dung"
16:52<andythenorth>I wondered about methane
16:52<andythenorth>but we don't have compelling pipelines in game
17:02<andythenorth>also very bed
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17:02<Wolf01>/me too
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17:05<TrueBrain>okay, initial code is now in OpenTTD/DorpsGek-github and OpenTTD/DorpsGek-runner
17:05<TrueBrain>it is running .. now I need to test it :)
17:05<TrueBrain>but it is looking good :D Code-wise it should work .. more about infrastructure now :)
17:05<TrueBrain>(I have to arrange the DNS, make nginx forward the information, etc etc)
17:12<TrueBrain>SpComb: tnx again for the pointers; it is running nice and smooth, and surprisingly stable for a 1 node system :)
17:12<TrueBrain>that I have several pods on 1 replica is giving him the most issues :D
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17:55<TrueBrain>okay, I prepared most of the infrastructure changes already ... I just forgot to install 'git' now in the Docker :D haha :D Miiiigggghhhttttt be useful to have :D
17:56<TrueBrain>bit harsh, but indeed: nn :)
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19:35<Afdal>hay guise how do people usually setup newgrfs on remote servers?
19:35<Afdal>Does BaNaNaS have a commandline tool?
19:36<Afdal>Or should I just ftp my newgrf files to the /newgrf folder
19:52<Afdal>Got another problem actually
19:53<Afdal>on a clean linux install, trying to simply rev a server up with openttd -D and I'm getting an error
19:53<Afdal>Crash encountered, generating crash log...
19:53<Afdal>openttd: malloc.c:2427: sysmalloc: Assertion `(old_top == initial_top (av) && old_size == 0) || ((unsigned long) (old_size) >= MINSIZE && prev_inuse (old_top) && ((unsigned long) old_end & (pagesize - 1)) == 0)' failed.
19:53<Afdal>What's all that mean?
19:54<Afdal>OpenTTD CAN run without graphics setup right?
19:55<Afdal>Where's the crash log usually found?
20:11<Afdal>Does installation straight to server hosting normally work fine?
20:12<Afdal>Oh does OpenTTD expect you to run it with a GUI to generate some important files at first or something?
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22:09<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: the base grf files are still needed for "headless" servers
22:10<Afdal>I literally just figured out my latter problem
22:10<Afdal>read/write issue
22:10<Afdal>guess I gotta run this server with sudo
22:10<Eddi|zuHause>and there is a builtin command line interface for bananas
22:10<Afdal>ooh neat
22:10<Afdal>How do I work that kajigger?
22:11<Eddi|zuHause>works sorta like your average package manager
22:11<Eddi|zuHause>"help content" or something
22:11<Eddi|zuHause>"content select ..." and "content download"
22:12<Afdal>I just wanna grab my newgrfs for a particular save in an easy fashion
22:12<Eddi|zuHause>afair if you try to load a savegame, it should come with the necessary grfs preselected, so you just need to run download
22:12<Afdal>can a headless server join a game as a client?
22:12<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, possibly... i don't think i have ever seen anyone try that
22:13<Eddi|zuHause>also, don't run a server (or any game, really) with sudo
22:14<Eddi|zuHause>fix your permissions instead
22:14<Afdal>I'm not sure how to
22:14<Afdal>I can't even find the default OpenTTD settings directory for this distro
22:14<Afdal>normally it's just .openttd right
22:14<Eddi|zuHause>try "openttd -d misc=3"
22:14<Afdal>what's that do
22:15<Eddi|zuHause>it should tell you what directories it looks for
22:15<Afdal> /root/.config/openttd/ found as config directory
22:15<Afdal>okay so that's where my saves and stuff goes?
22:16<Afdal> /root/.local/share/openttd/ found as personal directory
22:16<Afdal>or is it that one
22:16<Afdal>in either case I can't find the save I just supposedly saved
22:16<Eddi|zuHause>neither of those should exist
22:17<Eddi|zuHause>don't run stuff as root
22:17<Eddi|zuHause>it should be /home/username/whatever
22:17<Afdal>that's what openttd -d misc=3 returns
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22:17<Afdal>obviously it probably means to say ~/.config/openttd
22:18<Eddi|zuHause>well, ~ is /root if you logged in as root
22:18<Eddi|zuHause>which you shouldn't do
22:18<Afdal>I'm not logged in as superuser is that's what you mean
22:19<Eddi|zuHause>if you type "users" what does it say?
22:19<Afdal>just the one user I have setup
22:19<Afdal> .local/share/openttd/baseset appears to be empty too
22:20<Afdal>as well as .local/share/openttd/game/library
22:20<Eddi|zuHause>if you type "echo ~"?
22:20<Afdal>there's nothin in any of these .local/share directories
22:20<Afdal> /home/myusername
22:20<Eddi|zuHause>and "pwd"?
22:20<Afdal> /home/myusername
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22:22<Eddi|zuHause>if all of your above lines are true, then it should not try to look in /root
22:23<Afdal>I can load the save I just saved in-game
22:23<Afdal>so it was apparently saved successfully somewhere...
22:24<Eddi|zuHause>what about "xdg-user-dir"
22:25<Afdal>what are you trying to say there
22:25<Eddi|zuHause>that's a command you can type
22:25<Afdal>is that a BASH command
22:26<Afdal>I'm using FISH
22:26<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's a standaloone program
22:26<Afdal>hmm, well I don't have it installed
22:27<Afdal>I'm running a pretty stripped down server here
22:27<Afdal>no X11 or window managers installed
22:37<Afdal>I just don't get where these save files are being stored
22:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, the next thing i would try is to delete the directories under /root (or move them to /home/whatever)
22:37<Afdal>I don't have a /root/ directory
22:37<Eddi|zuHause>and then run openttd -c /path/to/openttd.cfg
22:38<Afdal>I dunno where openttd.cfg is being stored either
22:38<Eddi|zuHause>find -iname openttd.cfg
22:39<Afdal>is there a recursive version of that
22:39<Eddi|zuHause>that is recursive
22:40<Afdal>then I got nuffin I:>
22:41<Eddi|zuHause>if you run the game, there should also be ingame commands like "ls" (or "dir") and possibly "pwd"
22:41<Afdal>oh there it says it's in root/.config/openttd/openttd.cfg
22:41<Eddi|zuHause>for the save files
22:41<Afdal>ugh jeez
22:41<Afdal>oh lol I lied
22:41<Afdal>guess I do have a /root/ directory
22:41<Afdal>okay, well
22:42<Afdal>chmod ~/.config/openttd or something then?
22:42<Eddi|zuHause>what does ls -l say on that?
22:42<Afdal>on what?
22:42<Eddi|zuHause>that directory
22:42<Afdal> /root/?
22:43<Eddi|zuHause>no ~/.config/openttd
22:43<Eddi|zuHause>well i guess also /root/.config/openttd
22:43<Afdal>it's sticking junk in /root/ directories because I've been running with sudo
22:43<Eddi|zuHause>how about ls -ld?
22:43<Afdal>so I think I just need to fix my permissions for the other directories
22:44<Afdal>in order to get around that error without sudo
22:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, that's the first thing i said
22:44<Afdal>drwxr-x--- 2 username username
22:44<Eddi|zuHause>that should be right
22:46<Eddi|zuHause>the first "username" would be your actual username, and the second "username" is actually a user group, with the same name
22:47<Eddi|zuHause>the first "rwx" applies to yourself as user, the second "r-x" is for people in the same usergroup, and the "---" is for everyone else
22:48<Afdal>what is that
22:48<Afdal>Lemme try 777 and see if openttd works
22:49<Eddi|zuHause>that should not change anything
22:50<Afdal>yeah, nothin
22:51<Afdal>same persmissions for my ~/.local/share/openttd/
22:53<Afdal>maybe I don't have read permissions for core files?
22:53<Eddi|zuHause>maybe try an strace?
22:53<Afdal>if I remember how to use that
22:53<Afdal>oh I need to install that first
22:56<Eddi|zuHause>i'd try something like "strace command 2>logfile"
22:57<Afdal>strace 'openttd -D' 2 >logfile?
22:58<Eddi|zuHause>no, 2> is one thing, no space
22:58<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't know if the '' are necessary
22:59<Afdal>550 lines of gobbledegook
23:00<Eddi|zuHause>"2>" means "redirect output 2 (stderr)", whereas "2 >" means "put 2 as parameter to the command and then redirect stdout"
23:01<Eddi|zuHause>these 550 lines should have gone into the logfile?
23:01<Eddi|zuHause>try pasting the logfile to or something
23:01<Afdal>what's an easy way to do that from terminal again
23:02<Eddi|zuHause>dunno, something with curl?
23:02<Afdal>oh I know
23:03<Eddi|zuHause>there should also be a way to do file transfer through your ssh session
23:03<Eddi|zuHause>or use lynx :p
23:05<Afdal>yeah there's definitely ways, I just don't remember em
23:07<Eddi|zuHause>it crashes on a malloc, so maybe you have too low ram limits for your user?
23:09<Afdal>I should probably make another user just for openttd hosting anyway
23:09<Afdal>but I have no idea how to set memory access privileges
23:10<Eddi|zuHause>me neither
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---Logclosed Sat Jul 21 00:00:43 2018