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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-07-24

---Logopened Tue Jul 24 00:00:47 2018
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09:54<@Alberth>o/
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10:20<@planetmaker>\o
10:22<@Alberth>hi hi, read my pm?
10:23<@planetmaker>reading as we speak :)
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10:24<@Alberth>true multi-taskng :)
10:24<@Alberth>/me gives a tea
10:24<@planetmaker>:) *slurp*
10:25<@planetmaker>Alberth, do I understand correctly, that it is a separate tool, separate from nmlc currently?
10:26<@planetmaker>It reads very nice what you write about the capabilities :)
10:27<@Alberth>yep, just plain python needed, give root file, get 900+kb output :p
10:27<@planetmaker>I'm not sure it covers *every* macro magic I ever used in every NewGRF I ever wrote... but I wouldn't want to use *every* macro magic anyway anyhow :P But it sure should cover those cases which I use basically everytime
10:27<@planetmaker>if not more
10:27<@planetmaker>so I'm quite curious about it :)
10:28<@Alberth>it mostly throws dynamic features out
10:28<@Alberth>I guess I should move stuff to gh
10:28<@planetmaker>maybe :)
10:29<@planetmaker>moving nmlc to GH is still on my agenda, too... I don't find it easy to convert though... GH actually failed when I gave it the URL. Dunno what andy did differently than me
10:31<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/pp_20180724.tgz
10:32<@Alberth> pp/bin/pp -o outfile infile
10:34<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/airports_changes.patch.gz
10:34<@Alberth>it changes Makefile and findversion too
10:35*planetmaker downloads and looks
10:35<@Alberth>pp does include a small git repo
10:35<@Alberth>5 commits or so :p
10:35<LordAro>needs more GH branch :p
10:36<@Alberth>git init; git br first_steps; git co first_steps
10:40<@Alberth>I tried converting the chips thing yesterday, it fails on a too old mercurial pacakge here
10:40<@planetmaker>:-O
10:41<@Alberth>from mercruial.scmtools import revsymbol or so had no revsymbol
10:42<@Alberth>apparently they make a git clone by moving some mercurial data around at repo level rather than at commit level
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10:45<nielsm>I'm looking at the ticket about a "build town houses" gui for the scenario editor
10:45<nielsm>it's called "good first issue"
10:45<nielsm>it's a seriously complex problem, as far as I can tell
10:45<nielsm>lots of refactoring needed
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10:49*planetmaker installs reports
10:49<@planetmaker>... wrong reports :P ...
10:51<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/report.py
10:51<@Alberth>in pp/pp
10:51<@Alberth>git doesn't list it as untracked
10:51<@Alberth>maybe the import is missing?
10:51<@planetmaker>there... is a report.py for me
10:52<@Alberth>ok, git tells the truth :p
10:52<@Alberth>no from pp import report then?
10:53<@Alberth>nielsm: yeah, not all "good first issues" are that good first issues :p
10:54<@planetmaker>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pj0ywzrna
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10:56<@Alberth>ah, wrong import line :)
10:57<@Alberth>move the ", report" one line down :)
11:00<@planetmaker>ah, it should simply go in that line, yes. It's also - correctly - in the next
11:00<@planetmaker>and I was also looking at the wrong line :P
11:02<@planetmaker>Alberth, should it delete the output when it fails?
11:03<@planetmaker>well, maybe not
11:03<@Alberth>it's debatable, can make it an option :p
11:04<@Alberth>it's useful for eg make
11:05<@Alberth>output is partial anyway, as all data is streamed, so if the chain breaks somewhere, it's not well defined what gets written
11:05<@Alberth>python likely does close all files nicely
11:06<@planetmaker>seems like. It closed the output at the point it encountered the error
11:08<@Alberth>hmm, maybe it does, the writer basically pulls new tokens, trigger the chain into further computations
11:09<@Alberth>line numbers are weird currently, they are sorted
11:09<@Alberth>especially if it points to the definition and the call
11:10<@planetmaker>The tests are only optimized for the tests via Makefile, yes? bin/pp -o test tests/tokenize_test.txt
11:10<@planetmaker>pp ERROR at line in "tests/tokenize_test.txt", at line 3, column 4: Found 'endmacro' keyword without matching 'define'
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11:10<@Alberth>tokenize is just the first step, ie add -t
11:11<@Alberth>it doesn't do anything semantic then
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11:16<@Alberth>without -o it dumps to stdout
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12:43<nielsm>well... "it's doing something!" https://0x0.st/sV25.mp4
12:52<peter1138>It works, ship it!
12:56<LordAro>it compiles, it works
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13:00<nielsm>NewHouses drawing looks like it's going to its own whole bag of fun
13:00<nielsm>since it seems to really want to know what tile it lives on
13:01<@planetmaker>yes, yes, houses want to know that
13:09<nielsm>https://0x0.st/sV_-.png
13:10<nielsm>slightly better...
13:10<nielsm>of course also needs to handle multi tile buildings
13:18<nielsm>arctic landscape might also be annoying since it really ought to select between two buildings depending on whether you build above or below snow line
13:21<@planetmaker>Alberth, the generated nml definitely looks more readable, especially when macros came into play which expand into HUGE lines
13:22<@planetmaker>as your version supports nice multi-line macros :)
13:24<peter1138>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6805#pullrequestreview-139386000 < any views on adding descriptions to the saveload list? I think it's useful to deliberately cause conflicts.
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13:26<andythenorth>I added 'Industrial Finishes'
13:26<andythenorth>getting better http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
13:26<@Alberth>not by accident, planetmaker :)
13:27<andythenorth>I need to unpick final goods cargos some more
13:27<andythenorth>and decide about building materials (split, yes, no, partially?)
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13:30<andythenorth>printing works should produce mail? o_O
13:31<andythenorth>or I add newspapers cargo?
13:32<@planetmaker>printing works should produce Printen ;)
13:35<@Alberth>nah, it's a 3d printer, should produce VR news
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13:44<Wolf01>o/
13:46<@Alberth>o/
13:46<@planetmaker>o/
13:48<andythenorth>should I drop coffee cargo?
13:49<andythenorth>kind of like it though :P
13:49<Wolf01>No, you should add coffee, tea and biscuits
13:49<andythenorth>fair
13:50<andythenorth>probably should test this soon
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>it's going to be horrible :p
13:51<andythenorth>yes
13:53<@planetmaker>I like coffee, too.
13:53<@planetmaker>And it's too nerdy to drop it ;)
13:53<@planetmaker>Except maybe I like tea more :D
13:53<andythenorth>that's what I thought oo
13:53<andythenorth>too
13:54<nielsm>tea is good, coffee makes me choke
13:54<andythenorth>the number of industries in Extreme
13:54<andythenorth>is a real challenge for map gen
13:54<andythenorth>on 256x512 I have 1-2 of most types
13:55<andythenorth>there are 59 industry types
13:55<Wolf01><nielsm> tea is good, coffee makes me choke <- me too, if I add sugar
13:55*andythenorth wonders
13:55<@planetmaker>no sugar, no cream. Black as the night
13:55<Wolf01>:D
13:55<andythenorth>the number of industries to build are just constants, scaled by map size?
13:55<andythenorth>Alberth: you worked on this some time ago? ^
13:55<@planetmaker>andythenorth, that *should* be the case, yes
13:57<andythenorth>wondering if we could tune it
13:57<andythenorth>so that there are two counts, one specific to town-industries
13:57<@planetmaker>in what respect?
13:57<@planetmaker>I can imagine three types basically:
13:57<@planetmaker>* quantity per town
13:57<andythenorth>blackhole town industries are wanted disproportionately more
13:57<@planetmaker>* quantity per map
13:57<@Alberth>long "some time ago"
13:57<@planetmaker>* quantity per size
13:57<andythenorth>yair
13:58<andythenorth>if Truebrain was here, I would get slapped for specifying possible solution, not problem :D
13:58<andythenorth>but TrueBrain isn't so I'm safe
13:58<@planetmaker>though you could combine map and size to "per size with min=1"
13:58<@Alberth>that's total number of industries iirc
13:59<@Alberth>so some "chance" thing decides the proportion of each industry
13:59<andythenorth>the problem is that I'm weighting the probability of town-industries relatively high
13:59<andythenorth>because lots are wanted
13:59<@Alberth>industry had that variable
13:59<andythenorth>and then very small numbers of other types are built per map
14:00<@Alberth>so you set industries to "dense" or "high" or whatever it's called :p
14:00<andythenorth>it's better on 'high'
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>so "number of industries per map size" must also be scaled by number of industries defined?
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe industry set can set a "global" property that is incorporated into the low/medium/high settings?
14:05<@Alberth>number of industries could be useful
14:07<@Alberth>just let newgrf define those numbers instead?
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>not the exact numbers, but an additional scaling factor
14:10<@Alberth>for my curiosity, what do you gain by a scaling factor?
14:10<@Alberth>as opposed just the number itself?
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14:14<andythenorth>abstraction?
14:14<andythenorth>it's a multiplier on the ottd setting?
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14:18<andythenorth>does the newgrf need to control it?
14:18<andythenorth>we have the constants
14:18<andythenorth>we have the average number of industries per climate in original base set
14:18<andythenorth>just rescale to number of industries in newgrf?
14:22<@Alberth>you know the total number of industries available at one time
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14:34<nielsm>https://0x0.st/sV_J.mp4
14:34<nielsm>it builds!
14:34*nielsm makes PR
14:34<nielsm>;)
14:34<nielsm>(far far from done)
14:35<andythenorth>o_O
14:36<frosch123>didn't adf have a build-any-house-in-se patch?
14:36<Wolf01>Nice
14:40<Wolf01>Oh, I found out that libreoffice was put on the microsoft store by someone, selling it for 2 bucks but the demo version is fully usable... maybe is the same one who tried this with OTTD
14:41<Wolf01>https://www.neowin.net/news/libreoffice-comes-to-the-microsoft-store-but-theres-a-catch
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15:39<andythenorth>so what cargo unit for newspapers?
15:42<nielsm>reams?
15:48<nielsm>hmm, not *quite* right... https://0x0.st/sVLS.png
15:50<LordAro>i see no issues with this
15:51<andythenorth>and what accepts newspaper?
15:51<andythenorth>I need more town industries anyway
15:51<andythenorth>hotel?
15:51<andythenorth>need more types of shops I think
15:51<nielsm>convenience store?
15:51<nielsm>and hotels too
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15:57<nielsm>better. https://0x0.st/sVLL.png
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16:02<LordAro>*i guess*
16:02<nielsm>https://0x0.st/sVLp.png
16:03<LordAro>perfect
16:03<andythenorth>sprite x-y is fun eh?
16:04<nielsm>yeah :( https://0x0.st/sVLW.png
16:04<andythenorth>so where does yeast come from?
16:04<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/cargos.html#food_additives
16:04<andythenorth>salt is there, and I'm assuming spices are imported
16:05<nielsm>I think large scale brewery ops make their own
16:05<nielsm>including baking yeast while they're at it
16:05<andythenorth>ok
16:05<andythenorth>is sugar an intermediate cargo, or a food additive? http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
16:06<andythenorth>I would like to ruthlessly remove any redundant cargos
16:12<Wolf01>Where are slag and cement?
16:12<andythenorth>well
16:12<andythenorth>these are good questions
16:12<andythenorth>also tar/bitumen
16:12<andythenorth>creosote
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16:13<andythenorth>copper
16:13<andythenorth>toys
16:13<andythenorth>domestic appliances
16:13<andythenorth>that would be 55 cargos
16:13<Wolf01>9 more and you top it
16:14<andythenorth>why does the bakery accept sugar and flour, but not fats / dairy?
16:14<andythenorth>cakes without butter are lame
16:14<Wolf01>Yeah
16:14<Wolf01>And EGGS!
16:14<Wolf01>Chicken farms!
16:15<andythenorth>also glass is missing
16:15<andythenorth>and the recycling chain is stupid
16:15<Wolf01>Yup
16:15<andythenorth>I think the heavy industry is quite good though
16:17<nielsm>only an alignment issue with the spider and the fountain left... https://0x0.st/sVLx.png
16:18<andythenorth>o_O
16:19<frosch123>nielsm: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=68894
16:19<frosch123>or are you doing something different?
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>"the spider and the fountain" sounds like a crime or secret agent novel
16:20<nielsm>no, I just went with https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/1743 having no patch
16:23<andythenorth>copper + polymers -> wire?
16:23<nielsm>copper + cloth -> trendy wire
16:24<andythenorth>nylon
16:24<andythenorth>textiles?
16:24<andythenorth>textiles exists :P
16:27<andythenorth>my favourite tech product in last 5 years :P https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01D175HMO/ref=twister_B072V6FR48?_encoding=UTF8&th=1
16:28<Wolf01>andythenorth: ask for 64k cargos and start from chemical elements
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>i do belive nylon counts as a polymer
16:28<andythenorth>yes
16:28-!-sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@78.96.209.89] has quit []
16:28<andythenorth>also that cable is 10 foot
16:29<andythenorth>it's lifechanging
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: that fails by the time you arrive at enzymes
16:29<LordAro>andythenorth: seems excessive
16:29<andythenorth>it's freedom
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 10*12*2.54
16:30<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 304.8
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>3m?
16:30<andythenorth>3.3
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>i thought usb cables go up to 5m
16:31<andythenorth>I haven't seen a USB-C power delivery one that does that
16:31<andythenorth>but now I have to look
16:32<LordAro>wouldn't surprise me if it was 3m for power delivery 5m for data
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>at work i had to order a special usb A extension cable with 7.5m
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>actually, no, it was 15m
16:33<andythenorth>anyway it makes a lot more practical difference than the accompanying CPU upgrade
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>containing 2 repeaters
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>and the possibility to chain 3 times, if you added more power sources
16:34<andythenorth>was this some remote sensing?
16:34<andythenorth>or a remote machine?
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>it was for a chemical measurement device that had to be in a shielded place tho you could handle dangerous substances
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>s/tho/so/
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>was something like this, i believe https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/inline-usb-3-0-aktiv-verlaengerung-a-a-35656-a1364797.html
16:37<andythenorth>hmm
16:37<andythenorth>scrap the textile mill, and cotton?
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18:21<alpha_one_x86>Hi, I don't understand why my server is not show here: https://www.openttd.org/en/servers
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>usually because of your firewall/router configuration
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18:45<alpha_one_x86>have you more info?
18:45<LordAro>@ports
18:45<@DorpsGek>LordAro: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
18:47<alpha_one_x86>I have change the default port
18:47<alpha_one_x86>for server <-> client communication, checked with telnet for tcp
18:57<alpha_one_x86>include with all open, not work
18:59<alpha_one_x86>https://pastebin.com/ZS4nHxKE
19:07<LordAro>alpha_one_x86: it's also possible your ISP is blocking things
19:07<FLHerne>alpha_one_x86: I don't think that'll work, you can't configure the port used to contact the masterserver
19:08<LordAro>ah, didn't actually check the pastebin
19:09<FLHerne>alpha_one_x86: You can have your own server listen on whatever port you prefer, but the master only listens on 3978
19:10<FLHerne>So you must have that open outbound
19:10<FLHerne>(in order for server-advertising to work; clients can still connect manually)
19:16<peter1138>That's not configurable anyway.
19:16<peter1138>I doubt they have edited the code and recompiled.
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>what cruel person blocks outbound ports anyway?
19:17<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: ha.
19:17<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: I've seen various 'open' portals that only allow port 80 and maybe email ones
19:18<peter1138>Well...
19:18<peter1138>Any locked down network...
19:18<FLHerne>The /real/ question is who blocks 3978 outbound but not other random high-numbered ports...
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>see, cruel persons...
19:19<peter1138>Probably not blocked, likely is incoming udp is not forwarded.
19:21<alpha_one_x86>https://pastebin.com/mw9keWRt
19:22<alpha_one_x86>the real question is: how test the outbound 3978 port?
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>it's actually rather unlikely the outbound is the problem
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>inless you're in some shitty hotel place
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>*unless
19:31<alpha_one_x86>I'm preparing VPS image for a local datacenter in Bolivia, IPv6 have full connectivity, and each VPS have an public IPv6
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>overzealous corporate firewall might be another source of outbound problem
19:35<alpha_one_x86>how test it? If I can test it, I can fix it
19:36<alpha_one_x86>The IPv6 support is full and without firewall
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>with udp packages? only if you have a destination where you can check it actually arrived
19:36<alpha_one_x86>(out of the VPS)
19:36<alpha_one_x86>it's the problem, no udp confirmation is returned?
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>there is no confirmation whether an UDP package arrived
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>it is fire-and-forget
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>that's the advantage of UDP, it does not have this connection overhead that TCP has where each side must remember the connection state until both confirmed they have it established
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20:08<peter1138>packet, not package.
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>really, those are the same word for me
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20:26<peter1138>Yeah, but they're not.
20:34<Eddi|zuHause>possibly, but you won't change that :p
20:35<peter1138>Networks deal with packets.
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20:49<Eddi|zuHause>and tommorrow it's about installing stuff and it's the other way around. still the same word for me
20:49<snail_UES_>peter1138: I saw the activity over at https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6805 ...
20:49<snail_UES_>so is this going to be part of trunk?
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>possibly...
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21:03<Eddi|zuHause>but also it could be another "... i had a patch for that" in 10 years :p
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---Logclosed Wed Jul 25 00:00:49 2018